Gatsby's end

[Judy]

Gregory thanks you for doing his homework for him.

[Gregory]

Judy wrote: "Gregory thanks you for doing his homework for him."

Thanks for reminding me of this...

[Gregory]

Michael wrote: "Good questions. I felt there was authority being given (by the author) to Tom's statements. Tom knew a former Gatsby associate. He was definitely sounding triumphant as he brought these facts ou..."

As for Tom's speculations, do you not think its apart of Tom's character to sound "triumphant" whether he should be or not? I feel you are so secure in taking whatever Tom says as truth despite so many reasons not to. Any person at any time can create some convoluted story to shame someone and destroy their reputation. I do agree Gatsby doesn't do a good job attempting to disprove Tom but I see that as being quite the point.

Reliable does not mean unbiased. Or is that what you are implying? Can Nick be completely trusted in everything he says? In the beginning of the book, Nick goes out of his way to explain his non-judgmental attitude when it comes to other people's character, but often through the book he makes statements that are quite clearly opinion at best although we are expected to trust them since he is our filter for all events. Page 2 he says something very interesting concerning his non-judgmental approach "And, after boasting this way of my tolerance, I come to the admission that it has a limit."

I most certainly have doubt as to Gatsby's character. In my estimation we are only given, at best, a highly opinionated view of Gatsby to the point that he is not seen through any true lens only through that of Nick, and further more that lens is then added to when Nick speaks of Gatsby through another characters mouth. I do not believe that the way Nick describes Gatsby is the real Gatsby, he (Nick) seems to admit this himself.

It's so weird that you would think Nick's comment of Gatsby's house was a comment on Gatsby. Throughout the book Gatsby's house is viewed as a tool for the purpose of drawing Daisy (as are many of the things in Gatsby's life), and thus the house is seen as having failed its purpose. Certainly Gatsby also failed in his goal of Daisy, but I think Nick and Fitzgerald both saw Gatsby as a tragic, undeserving victim of the rampant lifestyle during the 1920's in America. Another quote from the final page, describing Nick's opinion of Gatsby:

"I thought of Gatsby's wonder when he first picked out the green light at the end of Daisy's dock...He did not know that it was already behind him, somewhere back in the vast obscurity beyond the city, where the dark fields of the republic rolled on under the night"

Nick here is raising Gatsby to a new level, placing him out of the dark, corrupted ideals of the past. Gatsby is made more than just a human who was killed, more than just a warning. Can you imagine Nick writing a narrative about someone he despised like Tom or Wolfsheim? I just don't see that happening.

It seems you find more error in Fitzgerald's writing than you do in the result of that very writing. With your idea's about Nick, I don't see how you can have an opinion about the characters in the book, what prevents Fitzgerald's confusion about Nick from leaking into every other character who we only know of through Nick? If the binoculars that you see an object with are broken, you can't then say the object itself is broken/blurry/or what have you, but you can only say the binoculars are broken and thus you can only truthfully reserve judgment.

[Michael]

Gregory wrote:

You didn't answer the basic question about Gatsby, Gregory. Anyway -- F's obsession with Zelda spills over, what else can one say? It was the story he wrote. He wrote it over and over again. It was his best story (Many kinds of love; but never the same love twice) and it was this book, too. If you read the way he wrote this, you will see how it might have happened -- his rush to do a huge rewrite off the first galleys. It is imperfect, and that has something (a lot, IMO) to do with why, I believe. He never got the moral balance anywhere near right, because his judgment was so cockeyed from his own life and where it was going then.

[Geoffrey]

If it comes to that, how much of this was really Tom Buchannan's fault? Quite frankly I believe he was the one who set in motion the last two deaths (unwittingly, of course). Risa`s quote

Tom Buchannan was directly involved in Gatsby`s death. Wilson came to him to find out where the yellow coupe was and Tom told him, knowing quite well that Wilson`s intent was murderous as he had seen the gun.

Whether he was responsible for Wilson`s death, I don`t know. Wilson had nothing to live for as his wife was the everything for him.

I`m struck by the names of the characters. Daisy`s name reverberates with sunshine, gaiety, but is not a "sophisticated flower" such as a hibiscus, bird of paradise or even rose.

Gatsby`s name evinces the upwardly mobile to an illusion of waspiness.

A nick is a small dent, so Nick`s active role is relegated to a minor role, that of narrator, yet he is the one instrumental in bringing Gatsby and Daisy back together again. Just another example of Fitzgerald`s poor literary skills. As for the surname Carraway, what can we possibly make of this one. Nick as the spice of life. Or is it a redundancy of the first name. Carraway seeds are only the topping for bread. Or does the name relate to "carried away" as the obtuse fan of two people whose shallow lives don`t merit his admiration? Or am I making too much of this.

Nick is the most interesting character for me, more so than even Gatsby. He begins by saying that all his life he has heeded his father`s recommendation not to judge people, yet from the onset he dislikes Myrtle and finds Baker overly cynical. What he has managed to do is to conceal his impressions of people and with this suave demeanor of feigned acceptance, ingratiated himself in both Daisy`s and Gatsby`s lives.

[Geoffrey]

If it comes to that, how much of this was really Tom Buchannan's fault? Quite frankly I believe he was the one who set in motion the last two deaths (unwittingly, of course). Risa`s quote

Tom Buchannan was directly involved in Gatsby`s death. Wilson came to him to find out where the yellow coupe was and Tom told him, knowing quite well that Wilson`s intent was murderous as he had seen the gun.

Whether he was responsible for Wilson`s death, I don`t know. Wilson had nothing to live for as his wife was the everything for him.

I`m struck by the names of the characters. Daisy`s name reverberates with sunshine, gaiety, but is not a "sophisticated flower" such as a hibiscus, bird of paradise or even rose.

Gatsby`s name evinces the upwardly mobile to an illusion of waspiness.

A nick is a small dent, so Nick`s active role is relegated to a minor role, that of narrator, yet he is the one instrumental in bringing Gatsby and Daisy back together again. Just another example of Fitzgerald`s poor literary skills. As for the surname Carraway, what can we possibly make of this one. Nick as the spice of life. Or is it a redundancy of the first name. Carraway seeds are only the topping for bread. Or does the name relate to "carried away" as the obtuse fan of two people whose shallow lives don`t merit his admiration? Or am I making too much of this.

Nick is the most interesting character for me, more so than even Gatsby. He begins by saying that all his life he has heeded his father`s recommendation not to judge people, yet from the onset he dislikes Myrtle and finds Baker overly cynical. What he has managed to do is to conceal his impressions of people and with this suave demeanor of feigned acceptance, ingratiated himself in both Daisy`s and Gatsby`s lives.

[Anwar]

do i think that Gatsby was a good guy? no but i dont think that he deserve to die, but what really bothers me is that when he was alive his house was full of people just to have fun, but in his funeral there was noone! isnt it sad! nobody loved him really they just loved his money and lifestyle.

[A.]

Anyone who loved this book should read The Late Gatsby - a mash-up of the original with a classic vampire narrative. It's very different from all the other zombie/vampire mash-ups of recent years - it's well-crafted, not thrown together, and is actually a sort of tribute to the original (a lot of fun details might escape someone who did not read the original.

[Nancy]

I don't think the term "deserve to die" is really applicable here. As someone else mentioned, on the surface this is a love story, but Fitzgerald is really commenting on the decay of the American dream during the 20s. I've always questioned whether Gatsby really loved Daisy or did he love what Daisy represented. He put her on a pedestal representing his American dream. If she was just a nice girl without the old money and prestige, would he have still be as besotted with her? Would he spend the next 5 years cherishing the few moments they shared? It's sad, but ultimately he wanted what Tom Buchanan had. That was his dream to be the creme dela creme of society, not through money alone, but through blood. Unfortunately, that was something that money couldn't buy. His death is symbolic to the American dream he was chasing. The moment he lost Daisy, he was already dead.

[Robert]

While I know this is not typical of Fitzgerald's style, I wonder if Gatsby's death was a presaging of the Great Depression brought about by those very forces Gatsby rode to the heights followed by the grand disillusion preordained by those forces as they ran out of control.

As Gatsby died, so died the American dream.

[Rob]

Some say he deserved it, others not. I for one believe it was meant to happen, both of them died, perhaps they will be together now with nothing in their way

[Geoffrey]

I believe the book`s claim to fame arises out of his linkage to the onset of the Depression. Had we not one, this book would not be receiving the attention it has realized.
Remember the book did not become popular until after WWII. This is a novel set in a historical context that predated the Crash and configures those that caused it. It was this reckless amorality in the business world that led to October 1929.

[Geoffrey]

Or she would have on account of his reputation.

[Monty J]

Gregory wrote: "*Contains spoilers*
What do you think about the scene where Gatsby is killed? Why does Fitzgerald have him killed? Did he deserve it? Why does Wilson kill himself? What do you think about Nick'..."

Gatsby had to die because he was corrupt, corrupted by Wolfshiem in his business dealings and corrupt in his personal life by adultery.