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What do you think of the idea of a "genderless" child?
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message 51:
by
Shannon
(new)
May 25, 2011 10:30PM
You can know what gender you are and still grow up to be the type of person you want to be. It happens everyday! That's why you see female truckdrivers (I'm one of them) and male hairdressers that are not gay! Raising a kid to be the type of person he wants to be is more than hiding his gender from everyone. It really makes me wonder if they aren't hiding the kid's gender because s/he was born a hermaphodite and they dont' know??? And why is this making the news?! Soldiers, officers, firefighters, etc, are killed everyday and they barely hit the news. But someone refusing to tell the sex of their baby makes the news! What a way to get famous!
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I can't even believe that this ridiculous shit is happening. Why are we so afraid of what we are? You are a boy or you are a girl. As a girl myself I dont feel like I've been made into anything I don't want to be. My parents raised me to be who I want, to stand up for myself and to believe in myself. They didn't hide my gender.And guess what? Growing up I hated pink, never wanted kids or to be married, wouldn't learn how to cook. I wanted to be a police officer or an archeologist when I grew up. And I was always known as a girl and no one made fun of me. Nowadays people are more accepting of everything than they were when I grew up. Maybe these parents just want some attention!
I think that it is hard for most people to see the postives in rasing a genderless child. But for the parents who have done it I understand. When it becomes an issue however is if the child's 'gender' preferences are ignored by their parents.
If you take a genderless child (a boy) to a toy store and they want to play with a truck... then buy him the damn truck.
Isn't that the point? Letting them choose what they like and how they feel when they are old enough to make these decisions. I often find that when parents make 'radical' choices in raising their child it's more for the parents to explore their own idiosyncrsies instead of what really might be best for their child.
(Stepping down off my soapbox)
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-07/us...Similar topic: How much can a parent be held to "blame" for a child's gender "confusion" (by reacting either for or against the child's proclivities)? Or, how much can parents' (and the shrinks they hire) interference affect that child's development once they reach adulthood? Nature vs. Nurture argument, but still interesting to hear some thoughts...
See, that looks to me like a child who was not confused. He was simply himself, a boy who had some traits that were considered to be too feminine. All of the abuse he suffered in his childhood was a result of his parents choosing to change their child instead of accept who he was. He might have grown out of it, or he might not have, but the parents made sure it was the biggest issue in his childhood.
Sarah Pi wrote: "See, that looks to me like a child who was not confused. He was simply himself, a boy who had some traits that were considered to be too feminine. All of the abuse he suffered in his childhood was ..."That's exactly what I was thinking. A child should be able to decide what they are comfortable with, and all of these therapies that are designed to "help" just intensify a child's sense of not fitting in; it makes them focus on what the world thinks is wrong with them rather than what they like about themselves. It has been proven, time and time again, that programs designed to change gender orientation or "turn" gay people straight are more damaging than helpful, no matter what "testimonials" come from Bible-thumping straight camps.
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At the "Egalia" preschool, staff avoid using words like "him" or "her" and address the 33 kids as "friends" rather than girls and boys.From the color and placement of toys to the choice of books, every detail has been carefully planned to make sure the children don't fall into gender stereotypes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06...
I don't know how the hell you're supposed to avoid "her" and "him" in everyday speech. "Are you going to play with..." That friend? The kid's name? Interesting.
BunWat wrote: "That's all right, when they grow up they can rebel by running away from home to become accountants and join the PTA."And they probably will. That's what's so funny about parenting. No matter what you do your kids will rebel against it. My parents were hippies and raised me with tons of choice about my appearance, friends, everything really. Both are astounded by my more traditional parenting. When my father asked me how I got to be so conservative I told him, "I had no choice. You gave me nothing to rebel against in the other direction."
RandomAnthony wrote: "I don't know how the hell you're supposed to avoid "her" and "him" in everyday speech. "Are you going to play with..." That friend? The kid's name? Interesting. ."As it says in the article, they're using an already-in-use but invented genderless pronoun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-n...
As it says in the article, they're using an already-in-use but invented genderless pronoun. I was talking about in the real world, Sarah Pi, not in hippy pre-school. No, actually I meant a context different than the one mentioned in the article with the visitor to class. In a different context this seems to encourage less precise speech. And while I understand not using "her" as an example for a secretary, etc., I don't know how using "her" and "him" in relation to kids in class is connected. That seems like a huge huggy kissy fuzzy leap of logic. "Go talk to her" or "Go talk to him" are not example of sexist language; they're opportunities for more specific references.
I wonder how these people would approach languages that use masculine and feminine indicators for nouns.
RandomAnthony wrote: "I was talking about in the real world, Sarah Pi, not in hippy pre-school. This seems to encourage less precise speech."I absolutely see your point, but I'll make a counter-argument for the fun of it. We already encourage less precise speech. If there are two people sitting at a table and one is black and the other is white and you are trying to get me to notice one of them, you will probably describe their clothing, their hair, and everything else before we use the most obvious descriptor, which in this case would be the color of their skin.
The point about languages is an interesting one. I have read authors who believe that we should be using "zhe" and "hir" in English, but I don't know what they would do in a language that demands gendered articles. (Though why in Spanish is a university feminine and a garden masculine? Who decided?)
I do think this is a valid concern, by the way>"The kind of things that boys like to do – run around and turn sticks into swords – will soon be disapproved of," he said. "So gender neutrality at its worst is emasculating maleness."
I wouldn't go as far as this guy but (and I'm not going to search references at the moment, use your google) boys, esp. minority boys, are much more likely to be diagnosed with learning disabilities, conduct/oppositional disorders, ADHD, etc. And there are valid questions in the field about whether or not it's because they act out their biology; in other words classroom activity may not be designed esp. well for boys or teachers may unconsciously feel the need to keep boys from acting out because of preconceived notions of maleness. The research is mixed. Causality is hard to establish. So I'm leery, although I could be wrong, that scenarios like this one could potentially, perhaps unintentionally, discourage boys from asserting themselves in order to make the point that girls can assert themselves as well. I'm proud that my kids help me make cookies; I'm also proud that they'll fight like wildcats, like brothers, and then get along afterward.
This, also, is weird to the point of bizzaro to me:
"We use the word "Hen" for example when a doctor, police, electrician or plumber or such is coming to the kindergarten," Rajalin says. "We don't know if it's a he or a she so we just say 'Hen is coming around 2 p.m.' Then the children can imagine both a man or a woman. This widens their view."
Ok, maybe it's just an example, but I don't know that any kindergarten teacher would be in this situation. How the fuck could a kindergarten teacher schedule a visitor to class and NOT know the gender? You could say "the doctor is coming" if you didn't want to emphasize gender.
I'm sure these people are well-intentioned. But overextended good intentions are potentially hurtful and dangerous. I hope they're having honest, open conversations about these issues (e.g. making sure boys are not covertly or overtly punished for doing "boy" things...the school has already apparently categorized boy and girl things in an attempt to make sure they avoid bias) rather than all agreeing with each other and towing a mindless party line.
RandomAnthony wrote: "How the fuck could a kindergarten teacher schedule a visitor to class and NOT know the gender?"I think there was a royal 'we' in there. The teacher has scheduled a visitor, but doesn't want the kids to make assumptions about that visitor until he or she arrives.
Sarah Pi wrote: "RandomAnthony wrote: "I was talking about in the real world, Sarah Pi, not in hippy pre-school. This seems to encourage less precise speech."I absolutely see your point, but I'll make a counter-..."
Yes, I hear you, but I'm not sure I agree the situations are similar, Sarah. "Go play with her" in reference to, my friend Corey's daughter Abby, wouldn't translate into "Go play with the black girl." It's not specific enough. "Go play with her" denotes Abby. She's a girl. And she's black. And she's Abby. "Her" designates all of Abby, her femininity, her blackness, etc. Maybe I'm reading too much into this. Maybe they're ok with "her" in this situation. Maybe they don't go through weird linguistic gymnastics to avoid "her" in that scenario.
Also, I would probably say "the black guy" in your example, Sarah, if that was the primary discriminative factor in getting you to differentiate between one or the other people at the table. Would that be weird? I wouldn't think twice about it. After four years teaching in the inner city I'm maybe not as aware about that kind of thing. And I wouldn't mind someone saying "the white guy" while referring to me while I was sitting next to Corey, if they didn't know us and one was trying to point me out to the other. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't mind people saying "the black guy" about him, too. I'll ask him.
Sarah Pi wrote: "RandomAnthony wrote: "How the fuck could a kindergarten teacher schedule a visitor to class and NOT know the gender?"I think there was a royal 'we' in there. The teacher has scheduled a visitor, ..."
Yes, I see what you're saying. Hm. I want to think on this one a little more. So they're saying that by not referring to the person as a doctor, but as "hen" the students will think either a man or a woman rather than assuming the doctor is a man? What the hell, can't hurt.
RandomAnthony wrote: "Also, I would probably say "the black guy" in your example, Sarah, if that was the primary discriminative factor in getting you to differentiate between one or the other people at the table. Would..."I would too, but I've noticed that a lot of people wouldn't.
In general, here's the good stuff I take away from that article:
I like the idea of the toys being given equal footing and being stationed near each other, so construction and cooking can mingle.
I like the idea that they don't give preconceived notions that, say, a policeMAN will be visiting today.
I don't mind that the books in the classroom skew heavy on the Heather Has Two Mommmies and adoption etc side since they'll still get the other side from all of their other interactions in the world.
The language stuff doesn't bother me though it seems like it may be more of a headache than it is worth. It's an interesting experiment, in any case.
RandomAnthony wrote: ""The kind of things that boys like to do – run around and turn sticks into swords – will soon be disapproved of," he said. "So gender neutrality at its worst is emasculating maleness."I wouldn't go as far as this guy but (and I'm not going to search references at the moment, use your google) boys, esp. minority boys, are much more likely to be diagnosed with learning disabilities, conduct/oppositional disorders, ADHD, etc. And there are valid questions in the field about whether or not it's because they act out their biology; in other words classroom activity may not be designed esp. well for boys or teachers may unconsciously feel the need to keep boys from acting out because of preconceived notions of maleness. The research is mixed. Causality is hard to establish. So I'm leery, although I could be wrong, that scenarios like this one could potentially, perhaps unintentionally, discourage boys from asserting themselves in order to make the point that girls can assert themselves as well. I'm proud that my kids help me make cookies; I'm also proud that they'll fight like wildcats, like brothers, and then get along afterward. "
I don't think they're neutering or emasculating the boys. If anything, it's probably a purer setting in which to see some of these issues. I've seen a lot of boys diagnosed with ADHD when it's possible that they just can't concentrate because they're six year olds with more energy than they know what to do with, and they're being stuck in front of televisions all day long.
RandomAnthony wrote: "the school has already apparently categorized boy and girl things in an attempt to make sure they avoid bias) rather than all agreeing with each other and towing a mindless party line."Towing it where?
Goddamn it! I am the typo king lately.
But eggs are masculine, right? Very confusing.
"un oeuf" is masculine. If it was feminine, it would likely be "une oeuffe". The pronouns and spelling generally give it away. The operative word is 'generally'.
I saw a child at the city pool yesterday who looked very much like a young girl (soft features, longish hair in a braid), but was dressed like a boy (board shorts, no top).Later, he (I'm going with "he") was in the men's changing room, so that settled it for me. He's only about six or seven now. When he's older he'll probably be a model or Disney star or something.
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You won't see any wieners in this locker room. People are terribly scared that someone might see their willy. Quite a change from the gym I went to in WA, where guys stripped down and strolled hither & yon in the locker room.
I'm getting an image of a locker room full of Mormon undie wearing guys. Phil, it could have been a young girl, if the Mom or female friend/relative wasn't there Dad would certainly not let the girl go to the ladies room by herself.
But I've lately seen so many boys with long hair. It must be the Latest Greatest.
Lori wrote: "I'm getting an image of a locker room full of Mormon undie wearing guys."You're seeing what I'm seeing.
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That always cracked me up about The L Word. They always used locker room scenes for gratuitous nudity. Everyone in the background was wandering around naked having naked conversations.At my gym people undress, put on a towel, go to the shower, put the towel back on, dress by their locker. Maybe you'll have a conversation somewhere in there, but you are usually wearing at least a towel.
I was going to start a different thread for this article, but it seems to fit here just as well."How to Talk to Little Girls"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-bl...
I like that it's not so much an issue of gender definition in this article, but fighting against the tendency for people to focus on physical appearance as the measure of a person's worth, which seems to affect girls much earlier than boys.
What do you guys think?
I so agree with that, how often do we hear people complimenting even very little girls on how pretty she looks?When I used go swimming here I liked how free the women of all ages were about nudity in the locker room. No one would walk around sashaying around flaunting, but it was no big deal being naked as we dried off and got dressed.
I was at a baby shower for someone having twins today - a boy and a girl.So many things were blue-for-the-boy pink-for-the-girl. Lots of onesies saying "Daddy's Future Baseball All-Star" and "Daddy's Little Princess."
And lots of commentary about "make sure you don't put the boy in the pink chair - you'll give him a complex."
Myles wrote: "I think that's a great article, all children should be approached in that way. She explains the situation in the best way.I can't stand when people insist on babytalking with little kids after th..."
I hate when people baby talk to children, it humiliates both the kid and the adult. I just want to yell, "Guess what!? Normal speech is how children learn! Now stop cooing and ask the kid an intelligent question!"
I never talked baby talk with Jake. We had some pretty stimulating conversations when he was quite young. Especially about Star Wars, ha.Yes Myles.
I love that post. I've hit like about a zillion times for it on facebook and g+
