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How do you define good writing?
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Such an interesting question! First of all, well-written requires good sentence construction. (Now that will be a surprise to those here who know me.) Vocabulary and a variety of sentence structure makes a book just that more interesting. In addition to sentence construction, must come imagery. The author is in charge of those images, though, so sometimes s/he might want our imaginations to go in an unexpected direction. Character development is a requirement for me to consider a book well-written. I'm sure there must be an exception to that, but right this minute I can't think of one. I am not opposed to plot, but neither is it necessary.
I might read a plot-driven novel for brain candy, but it's extremely unlikely that I will describe it as well-written on that feature alone.
This is such an interesting topic! I think that all of the things you have said are very important, particularly language and character.I think that the best indicator of good writing is if it touches us in some way. We might relate to something an author has written or we might be able to completely put ourselves in the shoes of the hero or heroine: these are both very clever things for an author to be able to do. But perhaps we are only able to be touched when a writer has done all the things you have said (developed a character well, organized the plot well etc).
What fun responses!@Beth -- I disagree with you on your last point. I don't think that a writer has to develop a character well, organize the plot, or write good sentences to touch us. I've been very touched on a strong emotional level by people that were not good writers. I think that is a function of how much you relate to what the author is writing about. For instance, if you've suffered post-partum depression, and an author writes on that topic, then you might be able to completely relate and be very moved. For me, I would absolutely appreciate the effect the writer has, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "good writing". But hey, maybe you (and others) think what's the point of good sentences if it doesn't emotionally move me?
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Just because you have a great story doesn't mean you write well and the same is true in reverse.
The book that comes to my mind is Lolita. It's no secret I detest this book on so many many levels but I can admit that he had a gift for writing. The story was horrible, the characters were horrific, the topic was vomit inducing but it's the best written piece of trash I've ever had the pleasure of throwing across the room.
In reverse I enjoyed the story of the Twilight series and had fun reading them but they are in no way well written from sentence structure to character development. It fell short in many ways as a literary work of art but it was a fun story.
I think my main factors would be sentence structure, word use, and plot structure. Scenes should have a purpose, whether it is to advance the plot or develop the character. The language should create imagery and mood without bogging down the story.
What a great question, Tera! And what good answers!For me, good quality writing is exhibited when the author employs a creative use of vocabulary and puntuation, creates well-developed and multi-dimensional characters, moves the plot along in such a way as to create a flow that easily draws the reader in, is very intelligent and logical (I don't like to be able to think of alternate explanations for scenarios that haven't been accounted for by the author), and offers a hint of the author's personality, like writing in a way that expresses humour subtley (sp?).
Grammar is important. That is a basic requirement. I read some books and think how did this person ever become an author? If you can't form sentences together than you shouldn't be writing. Good writing is how the author tells the story and having creativity. I am not a good writer. I am a good storyteller.
Excellent distinction, Tera: Good writing versus good story. I think popular fiction, for the most part, is just a good story. I'm thinking Jodi Picoult, and my own pleasures of Anita Shreve and Maeve Binchy.
Dear Elizabeth in Alaska...You have excellent taste in writers! I have four novels published in print and one in ebooks, so I know a little about writing. I used to think excellent writing was all about grammar, but some great writers are bad grammaticians. Now I think great writing is a book or story that makes us laugh or cry, that somehow changes the way we think, and maybe even the way we love. In short, it changes our lives. Such a novel is one I just finished. Its written by a man, a surgeon, but with a woman's sensitivity and delicacy. I recommend it to every reader on this earth. CUTTING FOR STONE, by Abraham Verghese. A great novel about love and loss and searching, betrayal and the fragility of the human body and its mind. Everyone who has read it falls into each other's arms, saying "What about that scene, and this scene, and how many times did you cry? And did it change the meaning of love for you?" OMG...I think I shall have to read it all over again.
Warning: its long. 650 pages in paperback. But you will not want it to end! Happy Reading! Alohas from Hawaii...Kiana Davenport
What a great discussion! And Kiana, you don't have to convince us! Chicks did Cutting for Stone as a group read last July. The old discussions can still be accessed. Sad to say I didn't get to it at that time and read it this winter, but it is indeed a beautiful book. People do offten pull up archived chats and revive them! There's some definite fans here! I will have agree with Elizabeth, characterizations matter more to me than plot. And agree with Viola and Tera's comments - the idea that good story is not necessarily good writing. I think sometimes we equate story with an engrossing, twisted or action packed plot, when story can be the deep nuances of a character and what got them there. Viola - totally agree that something that touches me emotionally doesn't necessarily mean quality composition. From a mechanics standpoint certainly good writing involves well structured grammar, creative use of vocabulary and languarge, effective imagery. Althought I prefer something not so detailed, but writing that leads my imagination to its own place.
I think I have grown as a reader because I have finally stopped confining myself to books that are only in my life experience, with characters I would like or relate to. Some of my richest reading in the last few years have been characters I didn't necessarily like and couldn't relate to, but the glimpse into their souls has expanded my understanding of humanity.
Tera - I had to chuckle - great examples examples of Lolita and Twilight. I'm with you there.
Sorry Nancy...I just joined Goodreads few months ago, so am behind the times. And you're right, we have to be open-minded and cross genres in our reading. Of course I loved Lolita (and anything by Vladimir Nabokov) but I just took the leap and read TWILIGHT...LOVED IT. Also, ditto on characterization being more important than plot. Anyone can makeup a plot. But to go deep into someone's motives and character is an art. I've even crossed into thrillers like Joe Konrath's ORIGIN...omg, the concept of Satan being here and experts trying to communicate with him, plus discussions on religion, faith vs. science, was mesmerizing. Its a techno-horror book and chilling. Conversely, has anyone readELEGANCE OF THE HEDGEHOG ? Gorgeous, a little gem of a book, and a love-story too! Happy Reading! Kiana Davenport, Author
Of course Kiana - no apologies necessary! Welcome and make yourself at home! Goodreads is such a great place and once you've navigated around and gotten to know people you will discover how very much is here and how many great functions this website has! Loved Twilight too! My 20-something English major daughter and I have read them all and seen the movies! We won't be total book snobs! LOL One of those silly guilty pleasures. And read The Elegance of the Hedgehog as well. I enjoy the what-have-you-finished and what-are-you-reading type threads so much, aside from just lurking through people's bookshelves and the compare function. I get some great great ideas!
Good writing...such a difficult concept to define...it's kinda like pornography, "you know it when you see it". Funny thing, one person's pornography is another person's art(ie, statue of justice covered by John Ashcroft in 2002).There are books people have loved, that I hated(I think Tera hit the nail on the head), and vice versa. I also know that a lot of people HATE the Harry Potter books, but I find them a good work of Juvenile fiction(the grammar and word selection being appropriate, for this audience), and is enjoyed by people of all ages. So I must add, one must also look into which audience the book was written for, a book in a mystery section that had no loops or twists, is probably not a great work of that genre. Steven King is more well known for the fast paced horror novels. Though quite simplistic in its sentence structure, his novels have become characteristic for their entrainment, pace, and plot. In my opinion, the "simple" structure helps to keep the pace fast and for the reader not to get caught along the way with difficulties of vocabulary or overly complicated grammatical structures...
I have not as yet read the Twilight books, but I also note their audience was for the mid teen girls. Something must have been a bit successful for them to have become popular...again, I find it hard to say what is "bad" (except for those that are so difficult that one cannot read them, and if that were the case, it would probably not be as popular), but more as a matter of taste and audience.
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I actually feel a rush of blood in my head when I'm reading a book and I come across a description or turn of phrase or realize this writer is GOOD. Sometimes I feel a click like hitch in my lungs. It's not entirely education by a good literature teacher. I physically have my bell rung by good writing.
I like writers who can make me feel like I'm in the setting, so definitely those that can master imagery. I also like the complexity of words and sentence structuring. I don't like simple writing, I want to feel challenged.
Jennifer wrote: "I also like the complexity of words and sentence structuring. I don't like simple writing, I want to feel challenged. "Yes!
This is a great topic. I think good writing is writing that disappears so you're fully engaged with the characters and the story. I'm with April that it is lovely to have the top of your head blown off by a sentence or two. However, I can find myself distracted by the beauty of the words strung together. That's alright if it's Virginia Woolf in Mrs. Dallaway, where I'm reading for the lyric flow and don't have to worry about plot, but if I'm being told a story I want the story to take over. Clunky sentence structure and awkward grammar fling me out of the story faster than writerly extravagances but they can both get in my way. I want the writing to paddle along in the background so that I get swept up by the characters and story.
I like your definition Tara - good point!
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Such an interesting question! First of all, well-written requires good sentence construction. (Now that will be a surprise to those here who know me.) Vocabulary and a variety of sentence structure..."
Elizabeth...I agree. I tend to read your responses becoz they're literate, well thought-out and discriminating. I would like to add to your comments that a really good book, unless brain-candy, should make the reader feel it has in some way changed her life, her outlook, the way she looks at herself, and other humans. I felt that way when I completed the novel CUTTING FOR STONE. I felt so much more knowledgable about a physician's psyche and his soul. It enriched me tremendously, and humbled me. It was the same feeling one experiences when reading the great literary classics of the world. Each time I finish writing a novel or a short story I reread it to see if it passes the "John Gardner test." He was a brilliant author and teacher, here is what he said. "To write with taste, in the highest sense, is to write with the assumption that one out of a hundred people who read one's work may be dying, or have some loved one dying; to write so that no one commits suicide, no one des-pairs; to write as Shakespeare wrote, so that people understand,
sympathize, see the universality of pain, and feel strengthened and encouraged to live on." Happy Reading! Kiana Davenport, Author
I was going to say that if I continue to think about a book long after I put it down, then it was well written.However, now that I've read your all's responses (sorry for THAT sentence, Elizabeth, lol), I would agree that a story can be good but the writing not so much and vice versa.
What comes to mind immediately, since I just finished it, is The Persian Pickle Club. Darling story, elementary writing.
Story and writing are different things. Some interesting stories are difficult to read because the writing is awkward and some well written "literary" novels seem devoid of plot. The great writers whose stories we still read (Austen, Dickens, Hawthorne, Fitzgerald and the like) could all do both, tell a good story and tell it well.
Good writing to me, is where the characters feel alive. Often when I'm writing I create a character that seems to take charge of the story. These always turn out to be the very best characters, and in my view they make the very best stories.Some example of good writing in my opinion are:
Pride and Prejudice
Ender's Game
Ender's Shadow
Dragon Flight
Harry Potter
Jane Ehre
Macbeth
The screen play for "Inception"
The screen play for "Ocean's Eleven"
The screen play for "Borne Identity"
The screen play for "Wives and Daughters"
I know I'm weird. I'm a science fiction nut that prefers characterization to plot elements. I do LOVE sciency ideas, I just feel that living characters come first - the story should come second.
Actually, the story can't even happen with living characters. Without them, the story is forced, and I think most readers can feel that.
Good writing, to me, is any that captures my attention and won't let go, regardless of topic or genre. What "good" writing or a "good" story entails is different for Everyone, including those who read the same book or novel. What one likes another may not & vice versa and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, makes for great discussions!
Maybe it's just semantics, but I personally would never say that a great story is "well-written". I might say that it's a great book or a great story. I would say that it's a worthwhile read. But if it lacks a certain mastery of the English language, I won't call it "good writing".@Brenda -- The thing about the idea of "you know if when you see it" is that it's different for everyone. And that's what makes it interesting.
@Jennifer -- I never gave screenplays much thought, but that is definitely a format in which there is good writing. Also, you put one of my favorites (P&P) on your list, so I like your response already!
It's no secret I detest this book on so many many levels but I can admit that he had a gift for writing.Finally!!! I thought I was the only one who hated that book. So glad to know I'm not alone.
Personally, I love creative use of figurative langauge. For example, one of my favorite books "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel", the author was writing about trees in the springtime, when they are just beginning to leaf out. She wrote, "It looked like the trees were dreaming in green." I loved that!
I think that writing figuratively is one of the most challenging things an author can do.
Also, if that little critic's voice inside my head shuts up, then I know I'm very 'into' a book.
Chicks On Lit
Books mentioned in this topic
The Elegance of the Hedgehog (other topics)Lolita (other topics)
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (other topics)
The Hunger Games (other topics)
So I was just wondering what you ladies thought. How do you define good writing?
Here's a list of some of the things I think about:
-- construction of sentences and how the actual words are put together
-- imagery
-- organization of the overall plot
-- character development
-- deeper levels, like making a story allegorical
-- keeping the reader's interest
-- entertaining
I think for me, when I think about good writing I think about the actual construction of sentences, how the words are actually put together and the overall organization of the story. What about you? What would be your examples of good writing?
BTW, I wasn't really sure what folder this topic belonged under.