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ANCIENT HISTORY > ARCHIVE - HERODOTUS - THE HISTORIES~~GLOSSARY AND RESOURCES

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message 1: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Sep 06, 2008 04:56PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
This is a topic area to add resources and glossary materials or urls.

For example:

ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCEBOOK: 11TH BRITTANICA: HERODOTUS


http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancien...

Thanks,

Bentley



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UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO DISSERTATION REGARDING TROJANS, ETC.

Sociolinguistics of the Luvian Language

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/yakubovich...

OR

http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/libra...

Vanessa was kind enough to bring this dissertation to our attention. The following is an extract from her post.

"Sociolinguistics of the Luvian Language"

It is a 500 page dissertation but the part on the Iliad is 3.6 and 3.7. I haven't gotten through all of it but in small doses it's interesting.

It's linguistic archaelogy, tracing movements and cultures though the changes in language. He'll be teaching the course I'm taking in October "When East meets West". Herodotus is the required reading for that course. I'm really looking forward to discovering the interaction between the near east and the Greeks.




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BCKnowlton posted these helpful urls elsewhere; thought they might be helpful to all of us here.

Thanks BC:

Here is a link to an informative website:

http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus...

An interesting article about Herodotus in general and The Landmark Herodotus in particular appeared last April in The New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics...

And the first chapter of Anthony Pagden's Worlds at War is all about Herodotus:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/boo...


message 5: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Sep 06, 2008 04:59PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

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GREEK MYTHOLOGY.COM

This should be a helpful site to understand the elements of the Greek myths found in The Histories.

http://www.greekmythology.com/



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BOOKS ON GREEK MYTHOLOGY: I WILL UPDATE THIS AS I HAVE TIME:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-...

HERE ARE THE TOP SEVEN BOOKS ON GREEK MYTHOLOGY ACCORDING TO ABOUT.COM.

http://gogreece.about.com/od/greekmyt...



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GREAT COURSE ON HERODOTUS (WORTHWHILE):

THE TEACHING COMPANY


http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedes...



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BCKnowlton | 28 comments Much of the early discussion of Herodotus has been about the ways in which women figure in The Histories and in antiquity generally. Here is a link to Diotima: Materials for the Study of Women and Gender in the Ancient World


http://www.stoa.org/diotima/




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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Thank you BC. Very helpful. I think I will open up a supplemental thread regarding this tomorrow. This is a great link.

Bentley


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So cool! Thanks BC!


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BCKnowlton | 28 comments A Propos of my post in the What is History thread: I referred to the passage in 1.95 where Herodotus tells us that there are three versions of the early life of Cyrus, but that he will tell us only one of them. One of the other versions must have been the one that Xenophon used in his biography of Cyrus. Here is a link to a bit of that:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancien...

It can be interesting to compare the two versions.

BCK


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Thank you so much BC - I will read later on this evening. I think it is great to have you with us in this group.

Do you know where the third version is?


Bentley


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
REGARDING THE EGYPTIANS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_...



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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
RESPONSE TO BC:

It is an interesting story; but in this one the grandfather seems to be quite taken by him. However, in this story I think the cultural differences are more pronounced and made to appear good versus bad or right versus wrong. I doubt that Herodotus would point out cultural differences in this way. Was in fact the kings decision based more on the fact that the grandson was 50% Persian in the other version?

Also, the grandson appears to be quite headstrong and benevolent at the same time except for the Sakan incident; this account also seems to be quite preachy. Why would Astyages be so taken with a boy who was supposed to steal his empire from him? Why would he delight in him so in this version? It was he according to H's version who sent Mandane away because of his dream. And then of course the account of the second dream and being given to a shepherd. Some other accounts depict Cyrus as treating Astyages well in his old age and having him live at his court. So many stories; the Xenophon one seems to be more in line with a grandfather delighting in his grandson.

What differences did you see or stood out for you.

Bentley


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COPYING OVER FROM OFF TOPIC CAFE:

It sounds like the First and Second World War in miniature. You could be on to something Vanessa; but he claims that he was interested in giving the rationale for the Persian Wars which came earlier; but then again in terms of the Peloponnesian Wars; the Persians once again were involved throwing their lot in with the Spartans. Thucydides took up where H left off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...

The following link I call the opposing view: there is a lot on this link and this guy is not H's friend; was a link at the bottom of the Greco-Persian War url on wikepedia. I will have to poke around when I have more time; but the views are certainly "strong" in all areas. Interesting to see how others think.

http://www.iranchamber.com/his...

AND

http://www.iranchamber.com/his...



message 17: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Sep 20, 2008 07:49PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

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INTERESTING: DEDICATED TO STECCHINI:

http://www.metrum.org/

This guy was considered by some as controversial: interesting to see the opposing view: Harvard and taught at the University of Chicago. Some of his assessments are rejected today by academics; they claim that: "Unfortunately, his repetitious writing and his theorizing about ancient geodetic knowledge adversely affected his scholarship and reduced his contribution to our understanding of the past." Just as an FYI up front: I call his ideas the opposing view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Egi...



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Some information on the Magians:

http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/magians...



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message 20: by [deleted user] (new)

Information on the connections between the Near East and Greece

Odyssey of the West, CD's by Modern Scholar





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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Thanks Vanessa, I will have to look for this. It sounds great; did you get this from the library?


message 22: by [deleted user] (new)

message 21

Yes, I got it from the library. It is great. Each lecture is by a different prof. It's exactly what I've been looking for. They compare and contrast Greek ideas with biblical. Then there's an analysis of the Odyssey by Timothy Shutt where he explains why he thinks the Odyssey may have been written by Homer's daughter! This was mentioned in one of my classes. He does a good job of supporting his idea.

I can almost "see" the pieces of the puzzle coming together. The Greeks, the Israelites, the Canaanite, the Phoencians, the Assyrians, etc. They're always studied separately but they're really parts of one big amazing puzzle.


message 23: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Sounds very good


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
The prices are good for the next three days on all literature courses. Like I have said before; you simply have to mention the sale and usually you can get the sale price if you call in later.

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedes...


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BCKnowlton | 28 comments Response to #15

Sorry, Bentley, for being offline for so long. You might think that teaching a Herodotus course would give me plenty of time to post things here, but somehow I don't...

In any case, I did want to be sure to reply to your post about this version of the childhood of Cyrus. I should say that I haven't read the rest of Xenophon's writings on Cyrus. But in comparing these passages with Herodotus' version the following observations occur to me:

Herodotus has said that his version is what really happened; but then his version seems more mythical, inasmuch as it sounds like the Oedipus story, and involves portentous dreams. In Xenophon's account, Cyrus is evidently being raised by his biological parents, in Persia, rather than by the shepherd and his wife, in Media. Astyages wants to see Cyrus; Cyrus is not brought before him. In Herodotus' account, Astyages recognizes Cyrus. In Xenophon's account, Cyrus recognizes Astyages. In Xenophon's account, much is made of the cultural differences between the Medes and Persians. Medes are opulent and effete, and Persians are plain and straightforward. In both accounts, young Cyrus shows qualities associated with kingship. In Herodotus, he gives orders and punishes those who do not obey them. In Xenophon he shows wisdom and perception. In Xenophon there is no indication that the rule of Astyages will become harsh and brutal, except perhaps for Cyrus' observation that Astyages becomes disordered in his mind when he drinks wine. This might be seen to anticipate the rule of Cambyses...


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Hi BC,
We were wondering where you were; I guess we thought that (lol).

You bring up an interesting point about portentous dreams (is that a trademark of Herodotus or more what he has taken from Homer?)

Were these stories told differently because of the perceptions or the biases of the men who retold them (Xenophon and Herodotus); they are remarkably different except for the fact that Cyrus shows kinglike qualities at a young age.

Thank you very much for your explanation. As always, it is helpful and terrific.

Bentley


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BCKnowlton | 28 comments And now that the group has begun Book 2, it would seem to be time to toss in the Black Athena Debate. That is a debate about a book of that name, which was published in 1987 and which argues 1)that Greece got much of its culture from Egypt, and that 2) the Egyptians were black. The book has been taken up by Afrocentric scholars and teachers, and has also been put down by traditional classical scholars. here is a link to a good introduction to the debate:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancien...




message 28: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
I think I agree with 1) - Herodotus felt that way too. Have no idea about 2 (they seem to be darker in skin tone; but I am not sure if that means what was stated in two)

I will read the link and think about it more.

Feel free to bring this up on the Book 2 thread when appropriate.

Thx.

Bentley


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BCKnowlton | 28 comments Martin Bernal, the author of Black Athena, claims that, indeed, Herodotus and other ancient authors had no problem acknowledging that Egypt and other non-western civilizations influenced Greece; and that we should pay more attention to them. It is, he says, the academic discipline of Classical Studies in the 19th and 20th centuries that has represented the West as purely Greek and Roman. The claim about the Egyptians' complexions is more problematic; and I think the problem is that Bernal and his partisans assume that current racial categories are transhistorical.

Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
BS, that statement about the moderns being the reason for this issue is tremendously important. It should be Egyptians, Greeks and Romans possibly. I wonder why this happened.

Let me read the link.

Bentley


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
I will have to look for it in the library. However, I did find this and watched it (if you get past the upfront music - you get to Bernal himself):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc...

I guess the answer to my own question was the East versus West issue: racism and the rewriting of history by Europeans and other reasons. Bernal makes a point, BC. I will have to look for his book.
Thank you.

Bentley


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
BC: how do you feel about these questions being an academic; is Bernal rocking the boat here with something that might change the Classicists' world? As they knew it?


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BCKnowlton | 28 comments Bernal certainly did want to shake up the academic world, and the academic orthodoxy about antiquity. But one of the lines of argument taken by his opponents is that he doesn't really have the academic credentials to make the claims he does.


message 34: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Oct 01, 2008 07:23PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Hmmmm. Isn't that what those who are threatened in some way always do...circle the wagons. After listening to him despite the horrendous music at the beginning, once you get to Bernal, he does not strike me as that sort of man (he seems to be somewhat of a purist); maybe I am mistaken. He seems to me like a person who does things for the love of learning and of research not for any personal glory, etc. Somewhat of a quiet mellow man.

He appears to be quite competent.
http://falcon.arts.cornell.edu/Govt/f...

Are they saying that he is not a classicist?

The video also goes on and presents some other interesting arguments and other presentations (whole thing about 51 minutes long). Still watching it in segments between posts.

Isn't there room to allow the opening of doors which were closed before due to prejudice and bias; or are those doors permanently closed as if the ancient world and what we believe is carved in stone and nothing changes. This is what we have been teaching for years. I think that is what some of the classical scholars might say and further they even might say and this is what we were taught; therefore it must all be true.


message 35: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Oct 01, 2008 07:34PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Thank you BC for this fascinating angle. I think what Bernal gets caught up in through no fault of his own is that there are groups seeking their own identity through works such as his even though that is not his scholarly intention.

I do not think that Bernal wanted to get caught up in any cultural centrist models; I think he just wanted to record his findings and they seem to appeal to certain groups who may or may not want to use them in a different way for a different purpose.

That may also be the rub to the classicists..getting caught up in an unpleasant discussion (MHO)

Bentley


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BCKnowlton | 28 comments I haven't seen the video, but clearly Bernal is no mere charlatan. He has the academic chops, but as his CV shows, his degree is in Oriental Studies rather than Classics. I think that strictly disciplined academics can get too pedantic and territorial about what counts as legitimate work and who can legitimately do it; but where, for instance, part of the argument has to do with the proper translation of a Greek word a Classicist might properly question Bernal's. Mary Lefkowitz, a Classicist and Bernal's main antagonist, makes this argument in one of the responses to Bernal that can be found linked to that Black Athena page at the Internet Ancient History Sourcebook. Lefkowitz's main book is called Not Out Of Africa.

Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth As History


message 37: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Oct 02, 2008 10:09AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
True about Oriental Studies; but a solid researcher none the less.

I agree with you about academia (some friends have stated that you have not seen politics at its worse until you have entered the academic circles)...very territorial about their departments and research.

I will have to go back and read what Lefkowitz has to say. Some say she is brave to take on the Afrocentrists. It seems with the skimming that I have done that she questions his (Bernal) and others' sources. Supposedly she thinks that Afrocentrism fosters racism in reverse (a real twist); but she seems passionate (almost zealous in her pursuit). I don't get that same zealous ardor from Bernal who seems quietly passionate. But I have not read either in fairness to her and to Bernal; I do think that the East versus West notion/distrust may in fact have diminished the importance of earlier cultural influences whatever their origins. I do think there is a fair amount of rewriting history in every domain. Bernal may be one of those unsung heroes. He has retired from Cornell; what is he doing now.



Bentley





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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
BC, the antagonism was certainly not one sided: (I think Bernal tried to be even handed but get in a few hits)

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1996/9...



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BCKnowlton | 28 comments He is, and he does; he also in this piece distinguishes what might be called his own, moderate, Afrocentrism from what even he considers extreme forms of it. He distances himself from some of those who have taken up his work.


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
I agree BC; the extreme never seems to help any scholar.


message 41: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
THE TRANSLATION MOVEMENT (BBC):


http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/i...


message 42: by [deleted user] (new)

message 29

This video was really fascinating. I have just begun to inquire into the different influences so I can't make any judgments. But as I've read I have noticed what seemed to be a discounting of the Hebrew influence. It's hard to know which came first, though, as there was so much Greek influence on Jewish scholarship. What comes to mind is the impact of the phonetic alphabet which came from Phoenecia. The people who write, write history. Are there parallel Egyptian books of history? Mohammed said that he started reading Herodotus in second grade. Why, if there is an equivalent Egyptian history, would he be reading a Greek author? As for the Near East I know a lot of the scripts have been deciphered only recently, and some have still not been.

I was under the impression that Egyptians were of mixed race. I don't think race should be the issue, so much as the influence and spread of ideas. If the ideas in Greece led to democracy, and science, it seems to me, it's irrelevant where the people or ideas originated.


message 43: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Vanessa, are you talking about the Black Athena video I found after BC posted those interesting urls on Bernal, etc.

If so it was like three videos pieced together. Not being a Classicist and not well versed in that area frankly; I really can offer no scholarly opinion on the matter except to say that the Egyptians have not gotten enough credit and maybe the Greeks took too much and were given a lot more than they deserved; a think it is a little bit of both.

I am not for trying to find identity outside of yourself and trying to recreate connections where there are none but I think that Bernal makes some good points and that is all that I can say.

I think it is up to others more versed in the ancients and maybe other Egyptologists as they call them to come up with any other bits and pieces of this puzzle. Not trying to be cute; I think Bernal opened up a pandora's box.

Bentley


message 44: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Oct 03, 2008 03:23PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Folks,

I am putting this in two places: here are a couple of free Teaching Company lectures (free to all until October 27, 2008); The Teaching Company also says that they can be downloaded and shared with others and even downloaded as podcasts, etc.


Great Leaders: Abraham Lincoln, delivered by leading Lincoln expert and award-winning Professor Allen C. Guelzo of Gettysburg College

Great Leaders: Winston Churchill, delivered by historian and award-winning Professor J. Rufus Fears of the University of Oklahoma

http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/GreatLead...


message 45: by [deleted user] (new)

The class I'm taking is called When East first Met West and Roman Exploration of the Orient. In the original syllabus Herodotus was the required text. Ilya decided that there really isn't one text that covers the subject so he put together a list of readings. Maybe someone out there might want to write this book! Until then, here's the list.

Burkert, Walter. Babylon, Memphis, Persepolis: Eastern contexts of Greek Culture. Harvard University Press 2004. This one is required.

Recommended Readings

Bernal, Martin. Black Athena: BC listed this previously.

Ilya said that this is widely criticized because Bernal had no proper linguistic training and is not critical of his sources. He has sold a lot of books and it's popular with Afro-Americans.

Burkett, Walter. The Orientalizing Revolution: Near Eastern Influence on Greek Culture in the Early Archaic Age. Harvard University Press, l992.

Burkett is very cautious with his sources.

Casson, Lionel. the Periplus Maris Erythraei: Text with Introduction, Translation, and Commentary. Princeton University Press. l989.

Humbach, Helmut and S. Ziegler. Ptoemy's Georgraphy, Book 6: Middle East, Central and North Asia, China Vol. l: l998. Vol. 2: 2002.

Jasink, A. Margherita and Marino, Mauro. "The West-Anatolian Origins of the Que Kingdom Dynasty". SMEA 49 (2007): 407-26.

Jones, Horace (Transl.). The Geogr4aphy of Strabo. Harvard Universtiy Press. l969 (reprint). Of particular interest is Vol. 7, book l5 (india and Parthia) and book 16 (Assyria, Babylonia, Mesopotamia, Syria, Phoenicia, Palestine, Arabia).

Latacz, Joachim. Troy and Homer: Towards a Solution of an Old Mystery. Oxford University ress. 2004.

This sound really interesting as it compares the poem with the historical knowledge.

Lopez-Ruiz, Carolina. "Oriental Elements in Hesiod and Orphic Cosmogonies". JANER 6 (2006): 70-104.

Pesala Bhikkhu (ed). the Debate of King Milinda: An Abridgement of the Milindapanha. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. l992.

Online version: www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf).

Sanders, Donald H. (ed.) Nemrud Dagi: The Hierothesion of Antiochus I of Commagene Results of the American excavations directed by Theresa B. Goell. Winona Lake, IN:Eisenbrauns. l996.

Seldeslachts, Eric. "the End of the Road for the Indo-Greeks?". Iranica Antiqua 39 (2004): 249-96.

Waterfiled, R. (transl.). Herodotus: The Histories. Oxford University Press. l998.

West, M.L. The East Face of Helicon: West Asiatic Elements in Greek Poetry and Myth. Oxford University Press, l997.







message 46: by [deleted user] (new)

Some notes on the above.

Strabo is an easy to read narrative.

East Face of Helicon is about the Greek influence on the Near East.

The book about the Indo-Greeks is unusual as they were a rarely studied group in central Asia

Happy reading!


message 47: by [deleted user] (new)

I hope this is the right place for this but I thought I'd share some interesting things I learned last night.

There are many Greek words that were borrowed from the Luvian language which is an indication that the Greeks had some respect for the Luvians.

Examples

Pegasus was borrowed from the Luvian Storm god. Pegasus carried Zeus' thunderbolt.

Tyrant (non-hereditary ruler) was borrowed from the Luvian Tarwana (justice, judge)

thyrsus (wand wreathed in ivy) was borrowed from the Luvian word for vineyard.


message 48: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Vanessa, terrific, thank you for all three posts. Very interesting.


message 49: by [deleted user] (new)

Last night I got curious about Rachel Friedman as my eldest daughter had a very bright friend of that name. So, just for fun I googled her. I came upon a very interesting article about the correspondance of the bible and Herodotus.

In Herodotus, Where are the Jews? By Eric Herschthal

It's a short little article but it's just what I was looking for. It explains that The Histories were written at the same time as Ezra and Nehemiah. It also explains how much the Jews loved Cyrus, good to read a differing viewpoint of the same events.


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Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
The above is interesting Vanessa. Thank you.


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