Mythic Fiction discussion
Books and Authors
>
'Ariadne' and 'Phaedra' by June Rachuy Brindel
date
newest »
newest »
I never heard of them before, too bad they are out of print. I liked Mary Renault's books about Theseus so it would be interesting to read a different perspective of the legend.
Ariadne is one of my favorite books. I first found a copy almost 20 years ago, and I read it several times during the '90s. I still have that copy, but I haven't read it in at least a decade. I should definitely read it again, as I feel it is a powerful story and sadly overlooked.I've never read Phaedra, although it's been on my TBR for ages.
I would be very keen to discuss Ariadne, but for the next couple of months at least I'm booked to the point that I don't think I can fit in a re-read to refresh my memory. But if you're still up for discussing it a bit down the road, I'll be here! (I should nab a copy of Phaedra then, too.)
Rora and Candiss, great to hear from you. I am so glad there's someone interested...Candiss, do come back when you have the time, as I would love that.
Rora: You can get Phaedra on Amazon.com if not on Amazon.co.uk. That's where I got them both.
Phadera is, if anything, even more tragic than Ariadne, but well worth the read. I do have certain criticisms about a lack of detail here and there, particularly in Theseus' abrupt moral deterioration, but overall, I thought them masterpieces.
If Rora hasn't read them, I don't want to spoil them for her, but I think the depiction of that wonderfully sinister Theseus in Ariadne is supurb, and I loved Ariadne's self-belief of 'The Goddess on Earth', and the love affair with Icarus.
Rora, I don't know if you noticed my discussion with Susan (like Theseus and Pirithous (sp) we started out opponents but ended up making friends) about Mary Renault's Theseus novels? I thought them misogynistic, she didn't...
I thought them - to quote a woman on Amazon - 'flawed masterpieces'. Wonderfully evocative and lively, and the characters spring to life, but oh, the internalised misogyny that subtly permeates the whole (matriarchies are depicted as barbaric, and naughty uppity women like Persephone must be put down) culminating in Theseus' slow murder of poor Phaedrain 'The Bull from the Sea'.
I believe if Renault had written in a later age she would have adopted a different perspective. I don't like to 'psychologize' (sp?) too much, but from David Sweetman's generally glowing biography, she does seem to have had problems with being a gay and unfeminine woman in an age when to be seen as a 'normal' woman you had to be oh-so-cutsey...
It would be great to have a discussion about Rachuy Brindal's novels. I was dismayed by the dismissive 'write-up' published on Amazon.com, so unfair, they are not at all primarily about 'the personal lives of historical characters'.
Jessica
Rebecca, this is fascinating.I could only get them on amazon.com and the publishers blurb published on Amazon to 'Phaedra' was really perjorative, as I say. There are almost no refrences to them on the web, but they make strong if horrific, reading. I feel they have almost been surpressed,and I find that disturbing. Is it conscious? Why are Mary Renault's so much more popular and is it anything to do with the patriarchay is fine message that they contain?
I want to arouse interest in them and the message they contain. Ironically, I only heard of them because of a reference to them in a book which questions the existence of matriarchies, Ellers book on 'The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory'.
I don't see how the murder of the king for a year is worse than the rape and murders that happen to women in patriarchies without a life of luxury first. Rant, rant...
I look forward to your books coming out. What are they called?
Jessica
Hello, Rebecca. I applaud your using creativity to bring women who are not committed feminists round to criticising the status quo. It is intriguing that we should meet up here, as that is my wish as a writer too, I am writing a gothic novel that superficially might seem to be romantic which tries to do just that.However, it wasn't accepted as I originally wrote it by the agents to which I sent it, so I sent it for a critique at Cornerstones.
I got an enthusiastic response (I hope they don't say that to all the girls!), but it was suggested I rewrite it to make it less cross genre. I am nervous, as I have nearly finished the rewrites. I begin to wonder if I shall ever get it published, as I rewrote it before...
I will look out for your books.
I agree about Renault's ability to set a scene, to bring ancient history to life. It is such a shame that her stories were so permeated with internalised misogyny, as I learnt she was in real life.
It was, of course, much harder for a woman who wished to challange a woman's role then, and t he only positive way her characters do it is by being 'boyish' ie Hippolata (I always forget how to spell that name) in 'The Bull from the Sea' and Chrissis in 'The King Must Die'.
I was horrified by the slow murder of Phaedra in
'The Bull from the Sea'. When young and silly I used to do a violent form of wrestling called Sportsfighting, and from that I am puzzled as to why the brilliant wrestler that Theseus is supposed to be would use the slow, agonising choke rather than the quick stangle except out of sadism? (that makes me sound like a lunatic, but we were taught those moves).
What horrified me more was that no women objected to it in any of the reviews. But I am always getting good and mad about that sort of abuse of women stuff. You will laugh, but I actually felt obliged to write a review of the dreadful film 'Troy' on
t he ezine 'the f word' criticising the romantisicing- rape aspect of the story (yes, Achilles and the Greek heroes were rapists to a man to modern eyes, but that is no excuse for current film makers to persent the relations between potential rapist and victim as erotic). In fact, I have just been flamed by a woman who usually reviews Mills and Boon for my amazon.com review which is a truncated version.Discouraging...
But why, if Amazon wants to sell books, would they publish the least flattering review of 'Phaedra'? There was a much better one quoted on the back of my copy by The Chicago Times.
I was very annoyed by the Theseus of Renault in that he gloated over overcoming matriarchy (I was glad that a few women, like Nikki, on here felt the same) threatened to kill his father's war prize for making a pass at him, etc.
For sure, in Brindel's novels, Theseus isn't sympathetic, though a magnificent physical specimen, charismatic and tragically wasting his talents on destruction and brutalit y.
I must stop ranting.
Jessica
I just picked up ARIADNE (used, at a church book sale). I have enjoyed Renault's novels for years and am thrilled to find a new take on the myth.
Oh, goodBrenda, then you can join in the discussion, splendid...Jessica
I would be fascinated to read stuff on matriachal societies, as so many male historians of ancient history from what I can gather seem to take Cynthia Ellers' book as the last word on it, though I did read a fascinating refutation of 'The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory' by one Max Dashu on the web.I haven't found much else. I don't claim to know much about t his at all, I am a newcomer to reading anything about it. T here does seem a backlash against t he idea that matrirachal societies existed at all? I would love to believe that they did, of course.
Yes, 'Troy' was complete rubbish. I was always puzzled as to why they chose the man with the shortest nose in Hollywood, so unlike a Greek one...and that dreadful dark body make up he is smeared in, which body builders use to emphasize muscular definition.
I felt obliged to raise the issue of the ugly Stockolm Syndrome relationship between the Achilles and the Briseis of the film as I was horrified at how many women on the web seemed to have no objections to the victim- falling-in -love-with-her-potential-rapist plot, and of course it was designed to excite men...
Thesues is said by some, I think, to be based on an real historical figure? It is interesting that the volcanic eruption happened years before. In 'Ariadne' Brindel makes the same mistake about timing, then.
That sounds interesting about writer's group on Facebook. I set up an account, but not having right equipment to upload photos, etc, didn't do anything with it and now I have forgotten my password, so unless I can delete that account I won't be able to get back in, I suppose...Hopeless at IT.
Jessica
Those sound fascinating leads which I must follow up.when I put a post on librarything about being interested in books on matriarchal prehistory, instantly a lot of male historians came on recommending Ellers' book (which I duly read, and hated) saying that it had never been.
I read some account (I think in 'The Phallacy of History') a quote from a Roman legionnaire, who said that a Celt was savage to fight but if he called in his wife to help, she was terrifying, with huge arms...I am not sure where he was stationed, but that would fit in.
Love that quote!
Jessica
Great, Rebecca! No, what is it about, I seem to have missed it completely?
Jessica
Now, that is fascinating...How will I find the time to take in all this material? I will have to write a 'Things I Must Do' list...Jessica
Well, I have read ARIADNE now. And I guess the word I would use is flawed. From a construction point of view it is a mistake IMO for the heroine to spend so much of the time under a mental cloud. Ariadne seems to be constantly the victim of forces beyond her control, and never gets on top of her situation. And it does end in a truly depressing way. This is not a fun book, and it isn't sufficiently gripping to get me past the not-fun.
Someone who has read PHAEDRA tell me, is it similar?
Brenda, I will be honest, Phaedra is a sad story, sadder, I thought, than Ariadne. I did find both gripping, but certainly dismal in tone; I did t hink it dreadfully sad the way Ariadne ended up,and Theseus' heartlessness,too.Yet I thought her a strong woman, and I suppose the author's point is that the onslaught on matriarchy would have been that overwhelming, accompanied by brutality and rape...
Jessica
Ariadne is too passive a protagonist. A fix would have been possible, but somehow the author didn't go there, and the resulting work is unsatisfactory. A fix is always possible, with sufficient creativity. (A good example of this would be the historical fantasy novels of Judith Tarr -- her account of the death of Alexander the Great QUEEN OF THE AMAZONS should of course have been depressing, since Alexander does die in accordance with the historical record. But she fixed it.)Another take on the Theseus thing is Evangeline Walton's THE SWORD IS FORGED.
'The Sword is Forged' shall be next on my list, Brenda! Is it easy to get hold of? That may well be the problem with Ariadne, passivity...The Goddess on Earth should somehow be overwhelming.
Exactly. None of the matriarchy gals seemed to -do- anything, while patriarchal partisans were running around axing, raping, setting things on fire, and so on. If the matriarchy was so scary and powerful, then where was the power and fear? And if they were so incompetent or degenerate as to be unable to muster a stout resistance, then it is hard for the reader to sympathize when they go down the drain.According to the Wikipedia entry, Evangeline Walton wrote a trilogy about Theseus and the Amazons. Unfortunately she submitted it just about when THE KING MUST DIE became a best seller, so she withdrew it and sat on it for many years. I think the first volume came out in paperback about ten years ago. The 2nd and 3rd volumes never appeared.
Rebecca wrote: "Interesting viewpoints! And more books to check out!"I am pretty good at sympathising with losers!
I agree that matriarchy, although under fire from he powerful Theseus and his troops, should perhaps have been depicted as stronger.
Of course, if matriarchy, not being testohestrone (sp? never remember that one, must be Freudian lol) driven was less violent and possibly women living in it hadn't had to deal with men given to rape etc before, then they would be at a disadvantage.
It is a shame that the book came out at that time, because as I think I have said on this thread, I was disturbed by the internalised misogyny in Renault.
T his was such a shame, as she was such an evocative writer, but it is as if you are asked to go along with admiring Theseus for destroying matriarchies. To some extent she is is of course, stating what was then the orthodox view, that patriarchy was an improvement upon matriarchy, and that women shouldn't be in charge anyway. Her views (as stated in Sweetman,etc) were of course shaped by the women she saw in her day, who had limited opportunities. A shame. No doubt if she had written the books these days, her view would have been different.
Yet I was very disturbed by the brutal e nd of Phadedra in 'The Bull from the Sea' for instance, forwhich Theseus never indicates any remorse. It seems unnecessarily sadistic. I don't want to sound like a dangerous lunatic, but as an ex wrestler myself, I know that he could have finished her off with the quick, painless strangle rather than the long agonising choke and th at would be the move that any skilled wrestler in insane rage would use (horror).
In Ariadne, I was interested in Theseus' emotional motivation, apart from his greed,of which we never know. Is Ariadne right in thinking that he did once care for her? Sadly, with his already having a history of rape, as recounted to Daedalus, if he had such feelings then they were euphermeral. I assume he had to kill their new born daughter so t here was no female heir for Crete (apart from Phaedra, whom he could marry). That was truly dreadful, and it is what men did to unwanted girls later, I believe, in classical Greece.
It is what parents do this very day, in heavily patriarchal places like China.Luckily there are many fine novels which revolve around women combating a patriarchal society. A good one (space opera) would be CORDELIA'S HONOR by Lois Bujold.
Hi again Brenda and Rebecca.It makes me so mad and horrified about the waste of girl babies in China,and so unnecessary when some people would give anything ofr one in the West. Why can't they be sent to be adopted in the West?
Hmm, which should I read first, the space opera or 'The Sword is Forged'? I think t he latter first. But what a shame that the other two books never came out...I iwll try and order it from the library and failing that, back to Amazon.
Do you ever bother writing reviews for Amazon? I do under my pen name Lucinda, trying to 'raise awareness' a bit and try and insert a bit of humour, but I come in for some flaming for it...
The whole can of worms about foreign adoptions is probably one we cannot open here -- there are a bajillion boards and blogs that people could consult.You will find that Lois Bujold is a bestseller in SF circles, and her books should be in the library. Also they are sure to be up here on Goodreads -- she has two or three series, all of which are so gripping that you should NOT begin the first one without having a sequel ready to hand.
So far as I know THE SWORD IS FORGED was not a hit, which accounts for why #s 2 and 3 never appeared. It is sadly hard to find. I read it some years ago, and the fact that I remember almost nothing about it is not a positive sign.
Thanks, Brenda for information. I am always interested in a take on the Theseus theme.
I am dismayed that they seem to be so little known, but I only came upon them by myself because I was looking for a interpretations of Greek myths from a feminist perspective.
I thought they were powerfully written, and very distressing. Though it is speculative - their perspective is so evocative that I find it horribly likely that if matriarchy ever existed - and whatever determined patriarchs choose to believe, it seems to make sense that some cultures at least must have been on such lines - that is the way that they would have been overthrown. They were not violent; they stood no chance against 'the heroes'.
Theseus was brilliantly portayed, I think. Finally, we can't know what a man such as he thought - whether he was deluding himself, why it mattered so much to him for posterity to think him a hero - it all seemed to begin with his own hero worship of Herakles and his resentmnet of his mother's power and the ineffectuality of his father and grandfather.
I did find working out what his intentions were in 'Ariadne' puzzling - did he intend to kill her? Certainly, in the sequel he becomes completely unscrupulous about killing, self deluded too. Still, her own sense that at one time he did feel some love for her might be meant as sign of perception rather than wishful thinking, as at that time he is less brutalised, though he already has a history of violence to priestesses...
Did her awful injuries in the earthquake change his plans? Of course, Ancient Greeks did expose baby girls, but his destruction of his new born daughter, and his raising the stone to crush Ariadne, so that he can neutralise the little heir Phaedra by abducting and then marrying her, is truly awful.
Because Phaedra will not use violence - because as an embodiment of the Goddess on Earth she must not be evil- she must be defeated by Theseus, who constructs a slanderous story about her relations with Hippoylatus in typical fashion.
I thought the strangely shifting identity of 'Antiope'
fascinating too.
Anyone as impressed by these books as I am?
Jessica