Vegan Vitamins, etc. (Need some help!)

[Lisa]

Glycerine isn't always veg*n: http://www.vrg.org/blog/2010/03/05/is...

[Lee, Unrepentant Eggplant Addict]

Just so you know, the liquid iodine is not tasty, it tastes how it smells but the directions on the bottle say one drop a day in water so I'm okay with guzzling it down.

[Rachel]

Oh, I found some other vitamins on amazon that look interesting.

As long as you get a known "vegan brand" like DEVA at amazon, I guess you will be doing OK!

DEVA Calcium Supplement ... "Chelated Calcium for better absorption ... Calcium, Magnesium, Vitamin D, Zinc, Boron, Copper, and Vitamin C"

http://www.amazon.com/Deva-Vegan-Vita...

DEVA Vegan Glucosamine MSM CMO
http://www.amazon.com/Deva-Vegan-Vita...

DEVA Vegan Sublingual B12
http://www.amazon.com/Deva-Vegan-Vita...

DEVA Flaxseed Oil Omega-3 Vitamin
http://www.amazon.com/Deva-Organic-Ve...

-- > Now Ginny ... correct me if I am not understanding this properly ... if we are taking the DHA - EPA supplement, then we don't really need to worry about taking a flax seed oil supplement, right? Because the whole point of taking flax seed oil is to help with our omega 3 / omega 6 balance, such that our body's ability to produce DHA's and EPA's will not be inhibited. BUT ... if we are already ingesting the proper amount of DHA's and EPA's, we don't have to worry about trying to boost the body's ability to make its own DHA / EPA, and therefore don't need to worry about taking flax seed supplements ... right? (Or wrong .. please help. Thank you!)

Speaking of which ... here's that DEVA EPA-DHA vitamin again. So far I don't see it for the super-cheap amazon prices, but as Rashida mentioned, it is available at vegetarianvitamins.com.

http://www.vegetarianvitamins.com/sto...

More DEVA at Amazon ...

DEVA Vegan Prenatal Multivitamin
http://www.amazon.com/Deva-Vegan-Vita...

DEVA Vegan Multivitamin
http://www.amazon.com/Deva-Vegan-Vita...

--- > This multivitamin has a huge amount of B12 in tablet form. :( Jack & Ginny's book says that the B12 in tablet form is not readily absorbed .... so I'm wondering, why do they even include it? UGH. It makes me wonder and question, how many of the other nutrients listed in the multivitamin are actually provided in a format that is NOT easy to absorb? If they didn't care about whether the B12 would be useable by the human body, maybe they don't care about the other nutrients on the label either?

Also Ginny, if you're reading this .... I happen to have a lot of regular B12 multivitamins at home ... not the chewable or sublingual type. If I grind them up and dissolve them in liquid before taking them, would I still get the benefits of the B12? Or, should I just throw them out? I got the impression from the book that I should NOT rely on these as a source for B12.

Oh, I just re-read the section, it says (p. 32) that "in some people, B12 isn't well-absorbed from pills that are swallowed whole."

Oh, I got it! That explains some of it, I think! Apparently there are some people who DO absorb the B12 well when the pills are swallowed whole, and there are some people who don't. OK! So in the case of the DEVA multivitamin, they are including B12 in there, because there are some people who CAN absorb B12 from a vitamin swallowed whole. For those people, the B12 will be beneficial.

Ginny ... any ideas on how we, as individuals, can know if we are able to absorb the B12 from vitamins that are swallowed whole? I'm sure it would make life a lot easier for many of us, if we knew we could get our B12 from a multivitamin. :)

Thanks for writing this book, Ginny, and thanks for your input on goodreads.

-Rachel

[Lee, Unrepentant Eggplant Addict]

Great questions Rachel! And thanks for posting about all the available vitamins on Amazon.

[Rachel]

Lisa wrote: "Glycerine isn't always veg*n: http://www.vrg.org/blog/2010/03/05/is..."

Thanks Lisa! I love to find out the origins of foods, especially if they are plant-based. :) I think the soap making thing might have been for glycerin, not glycerine. ?

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/crafts...

Probably they are different. And anyway, soaps can be made from animal products or plant products.

Hmmmm, I guess we'd have to contact the Trophic manufacturer to find out if they glycerine they use for the iodine supplement is vegan or not. The VRG link says glycerine is typically plant-based when used in food, and less likely to be plant-based when used in cosmetics / bath-body products. Hopefully vitamins qualify as food, but I don't think we'd know 100% unless we see it labeled on the packaging or if we contact the manufacturer. If anybody does find anything out about it, please post back.

Also, by the way ... personally, I'm not super strict about things like this ... I certainly seek out vegan supplements and get them vegan as much as I can.

BUT: if I had something like this Trophic supplement, and if I didn't have time to contact the manufacturer about it ... personally I wouldn't be super stressed or consider myself un-vegan just because I don't know for sure whether the glycerine is animal-derived or not.

Even if I found out it WAS animal-derived ... I would use up the rest of the bottle (it would probably last a long time), and in the meantime look for a truly vegan alternative. But if I couldn't find a vegan alternative, I would be resigned to begrudgingly buying another bottle of the same kind.

On top of that ... even if I did find myself taking a drop of iodine every day that WAS made with animal-based glycerine ... I would still call myself vegan. In my view, the tiny amount of glycerine that is in the one drop of iodine .... is not TOO BIG of a deal, compared to the POUNDS of food that I am consuming throughout the day.

Nonetheless, I think it's very important for us to be aware of these things. If someone finds out for sure whether the glycerine is vegan or not, I want to know. If I find out this one's vegan, it will be on my Vegan A-LIST: "Green Light Go"!!

And since this is a Vegan Cooking Books group, I think it's really important for us to point out which supplements are vegan, not vegan, or "not sure."

That's why I was wondering about that glycerine ingredient in the first place. Of course then I goofed by finding results for glycerin instead of glycerine. These names are tricky!! :)

[Lisa]

Rachel, I'll let Ginny give the definitive answers but:

You can have your B12 blood levels tested, which I do every few years.

Many omnivores are B12 deficient. It's not a problem just for vegans, even though we do need to supplement and not everyone does. But, if you drink too much alcohol, that depletes B12, I think. Older people are less likely to absorb the nutrient/ you're still young enough to not worry about this one but I'm in that over 50 group. And the B vitamins are water soluble vitamins so they're not as dangerous as fat soluble vitamins if you take too much. You can get dangerously high amounts of the fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E) but C and B my understanding is any excess amount pretty much comes out in your urine.

I'll ask Ginny to pop in here again when/if she gets some free time.

Edited to add: I'm continuing to take flax caps because they're prescribed by my opthamologist for chronic dry eyes I have secondary to another condition. Flax caps specifically. (Thank goodness he never suggested fish oil caps.)

And I would consider myself a vegan too if I took animal based glycerin but I'd be too repulsed to swallow the stuff, and thank goodness there always seem to be vegan options.

[Lisa]

Oh, and I'll just add that I suspect so much B12 is put in supplements with the assumption made that a high percentage will not be absorbed when swallowed.

[Ginny]

Hi everyone,

For iodine, I would opt for the supplements that provide potassium iodide since they tend to be reliable.

Again, though, I don't take a supplement because I use iodized salt. Just 1/4 teaspoon gives you half the daily requirement for iodine, and you can feel pretty safe about picking up the rest from vegetables. I know that a lot of people try to avoid salt, but unless you're eating a lot of processed foods, this little bit of added salt isn't likely to do much harm.

And, Rachel, the omega-3 issue is complicated. It's true that the small omega-3 fat (called alpha-linolenic acid) found in flaxseed, canola oil, soy foods, chia seeds, English walnuts and a few other foods, can (technically) be converted into DHA. But this isn't its only function. Aside from the whole DHA issue, it's actually an essential nutrient all by itself, so even if you take DHA supplements, you need sources of alpha-linolenic acid in your diet. So yes--the flaxseeds (or whatever else you eat to get this nutrient) are still important. This article helps to explain why you need both DHA plus the other omega-3s in flax.http://www.onegreenplanet.org/foodand...

And no, unfortunately there is no way to know if you can absorb B12 from pills that are swallowed whole--which is why we recommend that everyone use a chewable or sublingual kind. You might try dropping your pill in a glass of water to see if it dissolves over the course of an hour or so. If it does, then it will most likely dissolve in your stomach. Otherwise, I'd opt for a type that can be chewed. And incidently, most B12 supplements are chewable even when they don't say so on the label.

I don't take a multivitamin because I know I don't need most of what is in those. I take a chewable B12, an algae-derived DHA/EPA and a supplement of vitamin D2.I get iodine from salt and use a fair amount of calcium-fortified products (soy/almond milk, OJ, tofu) so figure I'm covered. And I eat English walnuts (which have alpha-linolenic acid) ever day.

And, yes. I, too, would still consider myself vegan if I were taking a supplement that contained glycerine!

[Lee, Unrepentant Eggplant Addict]

Thanks Ginny!

[Lisa]

Thanks for me too, Ginny!

[Rachel]

Thanks Ginny!

I am glad to find out that we need the omega-3's for something else, too. A couple weeks ago, when I started reading your book, I bought a big bag of walnut halves. I have since been eating 3 walnut halves per day (supposed to be ONLY 3, but I do sometimes eat more; I have very little self control when it comes to nuts), and I was quite enjoying the tradition! I am happy that there is still a nutrition reason to keep doing it, even after my Deva DHA-EPA supplements come in the mail.

I liked the simplicity of it, when the book provided a list of the foods one can eat to get the needed serving of omega-3. (Three walnut-halves per day! Now that is something I can do!!!) There were some other examples that seemed pretty easy, but the "three walnut halves per day" was the one I could most easily wrap my brain around.

Ironically ... one-quarter teaspoon salt per day ... sounds easy, but to me it isn't. I'm not in the habit of putting any salt at all on my food. I guess that's why the idea of adding one-quarter teaspoon per day sounds foreign / impossible. I take vitamins already, so the idea of adding an iodine supplement feels much easier for me.

By the way, where do we get a supplement with the potassium iodide that Ginny is recommending? Does the Trophic supplement have it?

[Lisa]

Rachel wrote: "By the way, where do we get a supplement with the potassium iodide that Ginny is recommending? Does the Trophic supplement have it? "

Rachel, I'm sure all the vegan stores have it. I'm using something I bought at Rainbow Grocery. It's by Soloray, and it comes as vegetarian capsules, and is iodine as potassium iodide.

I also never salt my food. (Unfortunately, I do eat some convenience foods I try to buy no salt added or low sodium but I've eaten the full sodium versions, and I eat out occasionally, so I get tons of salt, but not iodized.) But I don't keep salt in the house. I don't like really salty things. I'd also rather take a supplement, though usually I'd rather get my nutrients as much as possible from food.

[Ginny]

I'm fascinated by the fact that so many people here never use salt! So, if you cook up a big pot of beans or rice, you don't put any salt in it?

[Lisa]

Ginny wrote: "I'm fascinated by the fact that so many people here never use salt! So, if you cook up a big pot of beans or rice, you don't put any salt in it?"

Correct. I use all sorts of spices, but I never use salt. I prefer my food unsalted. I never add it to food, but get it in convenience foods (when I can't get no salt added) and in restaurants, but I doubt any of that is iodized salt. I used to salt my food as a kid but never have in adulthood.

[Rachel]

Yes, just like Lisa I don't use any salt when cooking. I do use it when baking if the recipe calls for it, but I hardly ever bake anymore. (Would like to start baking more again but haven't had time. )

Lisa thanks for the Solaray iodine info; I will look for it.

[Lee, Unrepentant Eggplant Addict]

I love salt. :-)

[Farrah]

I'm currently taking a B Complex that has like 1333% of vitamin B-12...should I take an additional B-12 pill?

Anyone know a good vegan calcium pill or chew? I hate super large pills.

[Lisa]

Farah, Most of the sublingual B12 tabs are tiny and they dissolve under your tongue, and yes, I'd take one, 1 to 7 times a week depending on strength.

[Hilda]

Farrah wrote: "Anyone know a good vegan calcium pill or chew? I hate super large pills."

Lithothamnium calcareum is a really good source of calcium, I buy it as a powder called "lifestream natural calcium", but I know other brands make it too (one is called "green calcium") and it can be found in pill form.

[Val]

Wow, this thread is so helpful!
I did not know about the omega 3 from flax seed oil not being equivalent to other omega 3 supplements! Hmm.. looks like I'll have to go and order some! (Boy those suckers are quite pricey!..)
I checked out Amazon but unfortunately for some reason they don't ship the Vega supplements to my address (mililtary) -which I usually don't have any problems with on Amazon..*sigh* I got my Vega multivitamin from the website http://www.iherb.com/Deva (if anyone wants to order, I have a 5$ off coupon for first time customers: VOX410 ).
Right now I'm taking a multivitamin for vegans (Freeda
http://store.veganessentials.com/quin... )
vitamin D and B12. I try to eat a lot of flax seeds, walnuts but had to give up my flax seed oil capsules as they weren't vegan..

[Lisa]

Val, There are flax caps that are vegan. I take both them and the Deva DHA-EPA. But, it's probably better to eat flax seeds than flax oil caps anyway.

Thanks for that code. Too bad you've had a hard time getting the supplements you need, especially since, yes, they are expensive.

[Rachel]

Another question ...

I ran out of my B12 sublingual tablets about a month ago. I finally got some more yesterday, but they are a different brand. These are Jarrow Formulas Methyl B-12 1000 Micrograms. The directions say to take them every 2 or 3 days, or as directed by a physician.

But ... is it okay if I take them every day? Especially if I'm worried that I might be low on B12? Or is it possible to over-dose on B12?

Another thing I'm not sure about, although they do spend some paragraphs talking about it in Jack & Ginny's book ... is it better to get the methylcobalamin or the regular cobalamin? I believe you need a higher dose of methylcobalamin to get the same effect, but if your supplement provides the high dose of methylcobalamin, then is it a good thing? Or does it not make any difference? I kind of got the feeling from Jack & Ginny's book, that they were recommending the regular cobalamin over the methyl kind, but I wasn't exactly sure why.

Also, Lisa .. how do I go about getting my blood tested for B12 levels? Do you know if it will incorrectly skew the blood test result if I just took a B12 vitamin that day?

Thanks!!
-Rachel

[Lisa]

Rachel, I'll let Ginny answer definitely. But, B vitamins are water soluble so I don't think it's likely to truly overdose from them, but I'm not sure if other B vitamins can get out of balance if you take megadoses of one of them/B12. Normally, water soluble vitamins such as C and Bs any extra just comes out in the urine. Fat soluble vitamins such as D and A we can definitely overdose on.

I get my B12/cobalamin tested every 3 or 4 or 5 years, so far so good, but I've always taken sublingual B12. Now, when I take too much B12 my levels are absurdly high, whether or not I've taken B12 the day before. I usually take my blood work fasting/water only so I don't take supplements until after the blood draw.

Rachel, you need a prescription from a doctor to get your B12 levels tested. You can go to any place that draws blood (LabCorp, the hospitals, etc.)

I've taken different B12 sublingual tabs of different strengths. Depending on the strength I take it 7 or 3 time a week or even 1 or 2 times a week. Recently I was taking a brand where I was taking it 3 x a week; now I'm taking one where I take it every day, probably still too much.

[Ginny]

Hi Rachel and Lisa,

The reason we recommended cyanocobalamin over methylcobalamin is that the cyano version has been well tested and shown to be effective. The methyl version just hasn't been studied that well, and the few studies that have been done suggest that it may not be that stable in the supplement form. So that's why, when you take methylcobalamin, it's a good idea to take much more of it.

I'm not sure that 1,000 micrograms of methylcobalamin 3x per week is enough. We just don't know. The only study done in vegans showed that 1,000-2,0000 micrograms per day of methylcobalamin was effective in most,but not all vegans in raising blood B12 levels. So that's why I feel better about cyanocobalamin until we know more.

And Lisa is right that this vitamin is probably not toxic in high doses since it's water soluble. The Institute of Medicine didn't set an upper limit of safety for it. Of course, I still recommend taking just what is needed to maintain healthy levels.

Hope that helps a little bit. The science is still evolving on all of this. For now--until we know more--I suggest 25 to 100 micrograms per day of cyanocobalamin.

[Rachel]

Thanks so much for your response Ginny!

So probably ... in your opinion, it is safe / non-toxic if I take this 1000 mcg of Methyl B-12 every day? Because that's what I happened to have gotten at Whole Foods the other day. :)

When I run out of this in 98 days, I will be sure to buy the cyanocobalamin instead. Whole Foods also had a bottle of that, which was the sublingual kind, although I don't remember what the dosage was.

Also I don't want to be causing any nerve damage etc for not having enough B12. Ginny, do you think that I might be running low, even if I take the Methy B-12 1000 Mcg every day?

Lisa, any ideas on how I can convince my doctor to give me a prescription for getting my B12 levels tested?

[Lisa]

Rachel wrote: "Lisa, any ideas on how I can convince my doctor to give me a prescription for getting my B12 levels tested? ."

Rachel, Do you have a hard time getting your doctor to order blood tests? I get blood tests every year and some tests I get every year. B12 I get ever 3 years or so. I simply tell my doctor I'm a vegan and I need to make sure my B12 levels are good. The doctor has never argued and my insurance has always paid. You shouldn't have problems getting that test. Try it. If the doctor is resistant (which I doubt will happen) I'll give you some suggestions.

[Rachel]

OK! Lisa, I made a new appt, and the advice nurse said she would request the B12 blood test, but it would be up to my doctor to approve it.

I used to have a doctor who was great, but then she moved away. For the past couple years I've had this doctor who was given to me by "default" as the new doctor for all the old patients of the previous doctor. The new doctor was fresh out of med school, which might have been okay, but she didn't know much about various health issues I had! And despite the health issues that I told her about, she told me that someone like me is so healthy that she doesn't want to see me any more, not even for my regular check-ups, which I used to do every year! And she didn't want to do blood tests on me because I had some done a couple years prior which were normal. :( (But I've never had my blood tested for B12.)

When I told her about my health issues, the new doctor had simply said that some people are just like that, and I need to deal with it! Meanwhile, I have talked to other doctors who I know personally (outside my health plan), and they gave me advice that really helped with my health issues.

Finally, this past spring, I looked at the various biographies for doctors online and picked a new one. I was planning to make an appt with him in March of this year ... but here it is November, I haven't done it yet! So I haven't even met the new doctor, but I hope he will be much better than the other one.

And ... today during lunch I finally made the appointment! It is scheduled for Nov. 21! Hopefully the doctor will approve the B12 blood test ... in that case, I'll be able to go get my blood drawn a week or so before the appointment ... and then the doctor will be able to discuss the results with me at the appt. Whew!


It felt like a lot of work, but I got it done (it involved more than 30 minutes on the phone, ugh!)!! So Lisa, thanks for the encouragement. Hopefully my B12 levels are okay ...

[Lisa]

Hi Rachel, I hope this doctor is much better and that you can work with him. Whatever the results, it's really important to know B12 levels, as well as other things. And, "healthy people" get major things wrong with them all the time. I used to work with pediatric oncology patients, and they were very, very healthy until their cancer diagnoses. Everybody needs vaccinations and screenings of various sorts, and if you have health issues they're worth attention, and should not be considered "too minor" by anyone else if they bother you even a little bit. Good luck.

[Terri Lynn]

Rachel, I am a lifelong vegan (age 52) and run a vegan non-profit. What I do for my B12 is drink Silk brand Pure Almond Milk in the dark chocolate and the vanilla flavors. One 16-oz glass a day of that gives you 100% of your day's requirement of vitamin B12 and other vitamins as well as 90% of your calcium. I also drink an additional 4-oz cup of it before bed so I actually get all of my calcium from that source. We actually need very little B12 in our bodies and this is a delicious way to get it. B12 is actually a bacteria that animals obtain by eating unwashed grass and plants. This bacteria is obtained from the same source, cultured, and used in the almond milk. You won't need any blood tests or supplements if you use this. I am 52, my husband is 56, and our daughter is 18- all of us vegan- and that is our only source of B12. We have full physicals every year and have no shortages. You are wise to want to be sure to eat enough nutrients.

[Ginny]

Rachel, I think that taking the 1,000 micrograms of methylcobalamin should be fine to maintain your B12 levels if they are currently normal. If they are low, then it may be a good idea to switch to the cobalamin. I'd wait to see what the blood test shows.

And I agree with Terri that fortified foods can be a great way to get B12. It's better to split the servings up, though--having two 8-ounce glasses of almond milk per day rather than one 16-ounce glass (which is a pretty big serving of almond milk!). The reason is that B12 is better absorbed at smaller doses, so spreading it out through the day improves absorption.

At any rate, fortified foods are basically the same as supplements (this is especially true of almond milk, which is basically one big liquid supplement since it doesn't have much nutritional value on its own, and Terri is right that the B12 comes from bacteria no matter how you end up getting it. I take supplements because there are no B12-fortified foods that I consume regularly enough to be reliable. For me, a supplement is just easier.

[Rachel]

Thanks so much, Terri, Lisa, and Ginny, for the help and advice.

Ginny, this touches on a question I had in my mind, after reading your Vegan For Life book ... are fortified foods such as fortified almond milk, more easily absorbed in the body than a supplement? Or do they work the same as a supplement? If they work the same as a supplement, do I need those crazy high concentrations (huge doses) like what is provided in the supplement, when I drink the fortified stuff? Or maybe I need a smaller amount, when I'm drinking fortified stuff, because maybe it is more easily absorbed?

I'm sorry if it sounds like a dumb question, but thank you so much for your time in answering !!

[Terri Lynn]

Good point Rachel. I often do take the almond milk in two or more servings. There are vegan supplements you can get from www.veganessentials.com and other places that include B12.

[Ginny]

It's definitely not a dumb question, Rachel. This whole issue of how much B12 to take and how often is really confusing--mostly because the dosages change by such huge factors as you take B12 less often.

If you're using fortified foods, we recommend two servings per day of foods that provide at least 1.5 micrograms of B12 per serving. You could take two pills per day providing those same amounts, but that's not very practical. Most people don't want to bother supplementing twice a day with B12, and you'd also never be able to find pills that have such small amounts.

So since most people who rely on supplements take just one pill per day, the recommended amount is 25 micrograms. This is *way* more than what you're getting from the two servings of supplemented foods, but again, it's because the absorption rate is lower.

For people who prefer to supplement just 2 or 3 times a week, it appears that you need a pretty huge dose of B12--like 1,000 micrograms per dose.

It doesn't make sense, but it's just the way the body works! And again, these recommendations are for cyanocobalamin. Because methylcobalamin has not been studied as well, I'm not very confident about making specific recommendations.

But the bottom line--and the answer to your question--is that the dosage is based on how often you take/consume B12. It doesn't matter whether it's added to a food or taken via a pill.

[Farrah]

I was just coming to this thread to read through it because I had some questions also about B12.

We take 1000 mcg tablet every day. I don't think it is sublingual, it's just a tablet I picked up at the grocery store that doesn't contain any animal products.

Is this too much? Are we getting proper amounts? Are we absorbing all of that? I just want to make sure that I am doing the right thing because my husband is over 50 and I know this is really important for him too.

Thanks

[Lisa]

I take a 500 mcg sublingual tablet nearly every day and my B12 levels are sky high. I might cut back to 5 days and see if I go into normal range.

Farrah, I know sublingual (or chewable?) are much more easily absorbed than pills you swallow. Do you also eat any B12 fortified foods?

Well, I'll let Ginny give the "real" answer, but I thought I'd chime in with what (I think) I do know.

[Farrah]

I don't know if my nutriional yeast is because I get it from the bulk bins at Whole Foods. I will check next time to see if it is the brand with B12 in it.

I have to check my milks and such. Good question.

[Lisa]

Farrah, I've noticed Red Star isn't the only brand of nutritional yeast that has B12 in it, so once you know the brand (or brands; they might change it occasionally) look it up and you can see, or the ingredients/nutrients might be listed right on the bulk bin.

[Terri Lynn]

I was just posting for one of my members at www.facebook.com/VegetarianVeganVillage about B12 and other nutrients. While I mainly advise people to drink the fortified almond milk as it is easily absorbed, I also suggest the vegan vitamins/minerals tablet I take daily. It is Deva. Here is a link to it. store.veganessentials.com/deva-vegan-...

[Terri Lynn]

A three month supply of Deva is only $12.99. This is what my husband, daughter, and I take.

[Rachel]

BTW, I love the name for your group, VegetarianVeganVillage.

Keep up the great work you are doing !

[Terri Lynn]

Thank you Rachel. Our website is at www.vegetarianveganvillage.org I have a friend of mine from Indonesia writing the content there. I welcome requests and questions on our Facebook page and will look for recipes, resources, giveaways, and health info there upon request. I want for that page to be of real service to vegans.

[Lisa]

Terri wrote: "Our website is at www.vegetarianveganvillage.org"

Terri, It's a great resource. All your work is appreciated!

[Rachel]

Hello hello !

I'm back from vacation and went to see the new doctor yesterday. He was wonderful. He listened to the various health issues I have (most of which, I have had since I was a child or a teenager, and I am now 36), and he listened to how I have tried to get help for these various problems many times over the years, and very little progress has been made. So ! He said he would like to help me launch a more cohesive plan to get to the bottom of these various things. He said there are many resources at Kaiser Permanente that are specialized and designed specifically to help with these things. He referred me to specialists and he wants me to make appointments, and he even scheduled a follow-up appt for 2 weeks from now, so we can put it all together and discuss what we found out.

I am so excited about possibly making some progress. I really do need someone to help me with this because there are too many things going on. In the past I've made some progress here and there, and then got busy with life and didn't have time to go back to the appointments anymore, etc. And some of the problems I have are intermittent, so they get better for awhile and I forget about them, and then they come back. I need sort of a medical coach to help me keep me track, and also to connect me with the resources that are available with my health plan ... and so hopefully I have found such a person.

Hurray!

Now, for the blood tests ... I got the results today. I'm happy to report that almost everything was normal. Even B12, thank heavens!

Glucose A-OK
Potassium A-OK
Creatinine A-OK
TSH A-OK
CBC A-OK
Sodium A-OK
B12 ... 494 (says normal is >200, so I must be absorbing my vitamins OK!!!)

Iron and TIBC ... now this is the one that seems not so good. This one is ...
Iron 54 (standard range 35-160, which is low but perhaps OK?), but the TIBC is 500 when normal is 228-428. The transferrin % is 11 when normal is 15-55.

I read on wikipedia that High TIBC combined with low transferrin % means insufficient iron, i.e., "iron deficiency anemia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_ir...

Ginny or someone else who knows ... is this correct? If so, that should be easily fixable by adding more iron to my diet, right?

I wanted to know, Ginny, what do you recommend? Is OK for me to take iron supplements to get my iron back up? I know that you gave lots of recommendations in your book about having vitamin C with your iron-rich foods, or soaking and sprouting ... and having yeast-leavened breads rather than crackers, etc ... but what if I'm already doing most of that, when I'm eating healthy. And when I'm NOT eating healthy, obviously it's because things are crazy in my life and I can't do any better at that moment. I'm not sure if the iron deficiency is caused by the times when I'm not eating healthy, or if it's caused by something else. Could it be that my body is simply not very good at assimilating iron? What do you think? Should I take iron supplements then? And if so, what kind of iron supplements do you recommend? Or is the iron in iron supplements not easily absorbed either?

I have actually had trouble with iron deficiency my whole life, even back in the days when I was regular meat and potatoes teenager.

Before I went vegan, I was rarely able to give blood due to low hemoglobin or hematocrit ... but something has changed for the better, as I have been able to pass the hemoglobin tests for giving blood during the years that I've been vegan. Although my iron levels were not good this time, thankfully, every item within the CBC blood panel was SQUARELY IN THE MIDDLE of the normal range, including Hgb (hemoglobin) which was 13.0 and Hematocrit which was 40.3. For me, this is awesome because I worked in a blood lab when I was a teenager, and very rarely could I get my hematocrit above 32, back then.

BUT ... the IRON. Apparently I'm not getting enough iron in my regular diet. Any ideas for how to help?

Oh, and in case anyone was wondering about cholesterol ... they had done the cholesterol panel 3 years ago, and the results were very good. The doctor said the norm was to do it every 5 years, so he didn't request the cholesterol panel this time.

Would appreciate any help or feedback! I am very excited that all of my blood work turned out awesome, with the exception of the iron, and hopefully the iron thing is easily fixable.

[Rachel]

oh wait a minute !

According to wikipedia .... High TIBC combined with low transferrin % could also be caused by birth control pills, which I do take .... hurray!

So maybe my iron is okay? Ginny, do you think it is okay for my iron to be 54? Kaiser Permanente says the normal range is 35-160, so it is okay?

If so, that would be AWESOME. :)

[Lisa]

Rachel, I'll let Ginny know you posted. Funnily enough, I've had high hemoglobin and normal to high iron my whole life, when younger and now, and when an omnivore, lacto-ovo vegetarian, and vegan. When I've donated blood the drop has plummeted down quickly. I think so many of these levels are idiosyncratic.

[Rachel]

Aha! Now you made me go look up idiosyncratic. :)

From dictionary.reference.com ...

id·i·o·syn·crat·ic
   [id-ee-oh-sin-krat-ik, -sing-] Show IPA
adjective
pertaining to the nature of idiosyncrasy, or something peculiar to an individual: The best minds are idiosyncratic and unpredictable as they follow the course of scientific discovery.

:)

So yes, Lisa, I think you're right, I'm somebody who, for whatever reason, has always had a hard time getting enough iron, whether I was meat eater or vegan or whatever. Even now, when I do pass the test for giving blood, that drop of blood goes down either medium slow, which is okay but not fantastic, or JUST BARELY ENOUGH (i.e., rather slowly) so that I can pass the test. But it's way better now, compared to when I was younger and couldn't pass the test at all.

Also about cholesterol ... I am somebody who has always had HIGH cholesterol. When I was 20 years old, I was in awesome shape, weighed 15 pounds less than I do now, was running half marathons and did a marathon, etc .. and during this time period, my cholesterol was over 200 .. but I had extremely high HDL's and very low amounts of LDL's. Now my cholesterol is down to like 170 total, still with very high HDL's and low LDL's. Meanwhile, my brother Jerry, who is about 10 years older than me, and eats a regular SAD (Standard American Diet) ... his total cholesterol used be like 120 when he was younger and now it's like 140, he told me. SO! What do you make of that!!!

No matter how good my diet is, I don't think my total cholesterol will ever be as low as my brother's, and he's 10 years older than me! Apparently Jerry inherited the "low cholesterol gene" and I did not.

In the China Study, T. Colin Campbell tries to compel everybody to choose a plant-based diet so they can get their cholesterol levels down below .... what was it, 150? He made me feel like, if I can't get my cholesterol below 150, I'm not doing a good enough job with my diet, and I need to try harder.

But you know what, I think T. Colin Campbell must not have been taking into account these idiosyncrasies. It seems like some people are just prone to having higher total cholesterol than others.

[Rachel]

p.s. i had to edit the above for some typos ... if you were confused, please read it again, now that I fixed it. :)

[Lisa]

Rachel, and All, My cholesterol has always been high, ranging from 200 to 240. That's whether I'm thin or fat, eating high fat animal products or a low fat vegan diet. The only difference is when I was extremely active my HDL cholesterol was way higher than it is now, now that I can't move as I used to, and therefore my ratio used to be very good and now it's not so great. Cholesterol levels depend a great deal on genetics. I know someone who lives on high fat cow's milk products whose cholesterol is about 170. Life is NOT fair.

[Rachel]

Yes, Lisa, I agree ... when my cholesterol was over 200, I was VERY SLIM (as I said, 15 pounds less than I am now!) and in much better shape than I am now (like I said, running half marathons like it was no big deal, and I had actually just run my one and only marathon (with no struggle at all, just glided right through the 26+ miles) a few weeks before the cholesterol test ... whereas now I struggle to finish my usual 5K run). So I was much slimmer and in way better shape back then ... and I was 16 years younger, with all the health and vigor that this entails :) ... and my cholesterol was over 200 !

So my cholesterol has gone down from 200+ to something like 170 (three years ago). Am I healthier now? No, I wouldn't exactly say so. I'm fatter now, I'm in not as good of shape, physically ... but ... I've got much better cholesterol. So? I think the cholesterol has gone down because of my plant-based diet. But does it equate to being healthier? It doesn't seem like it. I mean, I'm still very healthy now, but I admit, I don't feel quite as healthy as I did at 20! (Who does, right!?) :)

Cholesterol is a strange thing. One time I saw a post on facebook from a vegan, it was basically saying "Come on everybody, stop having high cholesterol! My cholesterol level is XXX (it was very low) and I'm vegan, so everybody .... go vegan!!!" that sort of thing. I was kind of put off by it, as it seemed misleading. Because cholesterol seems so related to genetics, etc, as Lisa was saying. Maybe this vegan guy is like my brother Jerry, and maybe he'd have low cholesterol, no matter what he ate. Of course the guy had his heart in the right place, wanting people to go vegan ... so I had mixed feelings about it.

[Lisa]

Eating vegan can be good for our health, and it's definitely overall better for the environment, but for me it comes down to animal suffering/animal rights. In my opinion it's important not to oversell the health benefits of a plant based diet and important not to make any specific promises. Especially with all the vegan desserts and junk food out there, which weren't around when I first went vegan.