Lord of the Flies
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Finish reading it, or no?
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Jessica
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rated it 4 stars
Apr 23, 2011 04:02PM
I liked this book, it's not badly written. It was a timeless theme expressed darkly, yes, through kids and whatnot but it's a classic in school for a reason. Yes it moves slow but, being a fast reader, it didn't really bug me.
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I don't agree with the notion that humans in their natural state are savage and will resort to violence against each other. I also don't agree that this is the message of this book. I think the message is that societies become corrupt when they are governed by corrupt people.
And how do you get that?
I read this book years ago when I was in 7th grade and argued with my teacher about the ending. I didn't believe the ending, not one bit. I think she was appalled by my adolescent world view.
I loved this book. I think I was 16 or 17 when I read it and I thought it was a particularly powerful novel.I was only recently browsing around hoping that it had become public domain so I could pick it up from Project Gutenburg or similar. Alas no.
Geoffrey wrote: "And how do you get that?"Not every character in the book degrades to violence in the book, so I don't see it as a statement about human nature in general. It has been a long time since I read, but to my recollection, Ralph and Piggy are trying to maintain order to the end - futilely claiming the rights of the conch. Also, this from Golding in the notes section of my edition - "The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable"
My interpretation may be wrong. But this I know: if the message of the book is that humans in their natural state will degrade to chaos and violence, then I couldn't disagree more with what the book says. If the message of the book is that corrupt individuals in power can destroy even the best, most logical concepts of government or rules of society, I tend to agree.
I feel so bad, given the comments in this discussion, but I LOVED this book. We had to read it in high school and it was one of the first 'required reading' books that I thoroughly enjoyed. Then the LA riots happened (yes, I'm that old), and I remember thinking "This is what 'The Lord of the Flies' was about. When you remove the constraints of society, look what happens." These days I have a kinder and less teen-oriented perspective on society, but still I think this book is a classic. Disturbing, challenging and oh so clever!
I guess everyone's tastes are different, so you're not going to get a definitive answer. I will tell you this is one of my favorite books of all time. It is a rather disturbing (but enlightening!) vision of what life is like when we strip away the structures of the existing social order and leave people to their own devices. The result, Golding asserts, is chaos and savagery. One can debate the author's thesis, but it is noteworthy how societies post-revolution or civil war denigrate into similar patterns of terror and violence.
I read book and seen the movie
I read this for a class assignment expecting to hate it because it was for school, but I really, really enjoyed this book. It was not what I thought it would be about (think Lord of the Rings), but I was happily surprised. I liked that it dealt with kids having to survive and how without adults around, these children soon forgot their morals that they had originally clung to. Yes, it is not a fast moving book, but it was deep, and entertaining.
So I am in agreement with Ben on this. What you have just written is so obvious that I can`t see how Edantes didn`t get it. I have to ask the question as to whether E. would be conflicted between his extreme liking for the novel and the acknowledgement that Ben`s and my interpretation is correct.
The discussion is gradually evolving into a more high-brow academic interpretation of the novel. :-) Some books require a certain level of maturity and a second reading as well as a decent discussion to understand it. The message is too hard to grasp for the younger generation in our high-tech world, but animalistic tribal barbarity is just a skin scratch away.
Geoffrey wrote: "So I am in agreement with Ben on this. What you have just written is so obvious that I can`t see how Edantes didn`t get it. I have to ask the question as to whether E. would be conflicted between h..."Not conflicted in the slightest. I don't acknowledge that your interpretation is correct. I actually think my interpretation is closer to what Golding himself said about the book. You and Ben and most posting here see it differently than me. That's OK. Perhaps you are correct that I didn't get it. I will still remain a firm believer in the essential goodness of most people. I think the idea that we need some kind of external enforcement of civility or we will all eventually start killing one another to be off the charts preposterous.
And I hope I haven't intimated that I have an extreme liking for Lord of the Flies. I actually didn't care much for it. But it is certainly thought-provoking and provides for interesting discourse.
Zulfiya wrote: "The discussion is gradually evolving into a more high-brow academic interpretation of the novel. :-) Some books require a certain level of maturity and a second reading as well as a decent discussi..."I'm not in, Zulfiya. I'm not buying that barbarity is just a skin scratch away. I don't think I qualify for the "younger generation". I guess I must just be immature. Perhaps I will give that second reading a shot. It's a pretty short book.
In the beginning, the book sucks, plain and simple. But later in the story, it turns out to be really good. Keep readin, it does get better.
Whether you believe in Golding`s message or not, don`t confuse it with your own beliefs. It`s quite apparent that he thinks the worse of human nature. As for what Golding himself says about the book, let`s see the quotes.
Geoffrey wrote: "Whether you believe in Golding`s message or not, don`t confuse it with your own beliefs. It`s quite apparent that he thinks the worse of human nature. As for what Golding himself says about the boo..."Already gave it to you.
"The moral is that the shape of a society must depend on the ethical nature of the individual and not on any political system however apparently logical or respectable"
I'm quite sympathetic to Edantes' interpretation here. Attempting to collect in my mind the pieces of a story read many years ago, a distrust of political systems rather than in human nature itself seems like a plausible message.
I really should re-read this book though. Some of the details are lost to me now, but I do recall enjoying reading and studying this text.
Thanks Edantes for presenting your viewpoint on this as it rekindled my interest in re-reading the book with the pretense of maturity.
I finished reading it because I had no choice. Had to do a book report on it.
This book is kinda slow but it was really good. I really like this book so I think you should finish reading it. Do you think this book is hard to read?
Once I got past the first 5-ish chapters it got a whole lot easier. It wasn't exactly hard to read, it was just boring and slow. But I did it, I read the entire book. Whoo hoo!Thanks guys for your comments. They helped me out a lot:)
Yes, I finished it, but it was only because I was reading it for a project in school....I'm not so sure that I would have completed it if I was just reading it on my own. It wasn't a horrible book (in fact, the ending was suspenseful and actually quite good) it was just that it was extremely slow.
@ Zulfiya -- "well, I do not know why it is so popular in the USA. I guess because it is the easiest of his books and less religiously offensive. I personally think that his other books 'Darkness Visible', 'Free Fall', and 'Spire' are his true masterpieces." I'll have to look into those. I read Lord of the Flies in school and loved it. Will probably like his others as well.
@ Hannah -- "The only problem i had with it was the ending. It was way too abrupt..."
Our English assignment was to rewrite the ending. I really had fun with that.
I can barely remember the book, how was the ending rewritten for your English assignment?
Emily321 wrote: "This book is soo..... slow. Its like watching a snail. At first you think it might be entertaining, but then you realize that its not. Its just boring.Annywas, I'm reading this book, and I'm thin..."
it's always a shame to start but not finish. I always try to read it through. I liked the book and the story stayed with me. I still think back to it when I observe how people behave...there are similarities even today in our "society"
It's been a long time. As I remember the original, the boys were chasing this one kid with spears when a group of adults appeared to rescue them off the island.In my version, they caught up with the boy and were still stabbing his body when the adults appear.
I wonder how today's high school teachers would react to that paper?
Back then, I was into the macabre and loved unexpected endings. Hence, my love for The Twilight Zone, Tales from the Crypt Keeper, and such.
Wow, that is a ghastly ending. Probably today's teachers probably think it is troubling, but what today's kids are seeing, not too troubled by it. It seems tame in comparison to what teachers are probably getting or not getting by way of participation from their students.
Author goes on and on about the scenery of the jungle (who cares?). But this book is so short you really should just finish it out -- but not for that reason alone. It DOES pick up the pace, sorry it's not until around the 6th or so chapter that I remember. With the book only having 12 chapters, that sucks but it was worth it because when the action starts moving, it doesn't stop until the end. I won't ruin it but I really didn't like the last page/ending. I just wanted more of a conclusion. Anyway, finish it girl! LOL.
I really liked it, read it ages ago and stayed with me. It's a good study of human nature in strange settings.
I absolutely loved this book. It's the best book I've ever read for a class in school.
Guys, its okay! I finished it! Love all the advice you guys gave me, and I like looking at all the different opinions about the book.
I have to agree, the book turned out better than I thought. It really did start out slow, but then it picked up pace. The ending was bad though, I think he could've done a better job.
But, all in all, it was an okay book.
Thanks again :)
Well it is not one for the light reader. The title should give a hint that you need to do a bit more searching than simply glide through the pages and then go on a forum and say 'it is slow horseshit'. Beelzebub or Lord of the flies talks about the evil within us, once we discover it we lose our childhood innocence. According to the book it comes out with the instinct of survival, lack of knowledge and education. It also implies that childhood innocence is protected by the world of adults, in the book once the kids have to survive and are no longer dependant on a grown up they seize to be children any more. I felt as if it suggests that innocence is an illusion we cultivate. Development of human society from an embryo into adulthood does rely on the realisation of ethics, morals, justice. Through history it took a number of individual struggles before a change towards a more advanced society occured. Even today the current political status quo is based on the more primitive notions of society, which are violent, self indulgent, corrupt with power.
Anyway it is a great book that feeds the thought provided that a thinking process is there to begin with.
I like the book because of all the symbolism it contains. Everything means something else, and I am impressed that Golding included so much depth in this. There has to be a reason why this book is still so popular, and I think it is because it is a vivid depiction of human nature.
Edantes wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "So I am in agreement with Ben on this. What you have just written is so obvious that I can`t see how Edantes didn`t get it. I have to ask the question as to whether E. would be con..."You might be sad to realise that there are a number of people who think that the essential goodness of humans is a myth. Sure i have met it but i am overwhelmed by the contrary. I hope that if we are pushed to extremes for survival people who now realise that in order to survive we have to stick together, will not do otherwise and be divided. Unfortunately goodness is not an innate ability of humans, it is fragile and easy to disturb at times of hardship (whether it is disruption in food production due to climate or economic crisis or an earhtquake). I think the selection of children characters in the book helps a bit the author, if it had to be adults then some of the acts could not be justified. Maybe I misinterpret the allegory but I think that children represent a more primitive form or an earlier shape of society. I guess the question is how much of our society is built on primitive notions. I think in the beginning things were dark, you had tyrants, despots, dictators and now you have class division, corrupt and empowered politicians, totalitarianism. How far have we progressed when you compare? Now, in more educated and cultured times, can we claim that our social structure matured?
I think Golding used children in this book rather than adults because while we hear about adults killing people and such all the time, it's not every day that you hear about children committing these atrocities. Children have a more innocent reputation, which I think adds to the general message of the book that ANYONE is capable of doing bad when put into extreme situations because it's part of human nature.
Christos wrote: "Edantes wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "So I am in agreement with Ben on this. What you have just written is so obvious that I can`t see how Edantes didn`t get it. I have to ask the question as to whether..."Christos, you make a compelling argument. However, I think I would still answer yes to your final question. I think an argument can be made that more education and more refined culture leads to less war and violence in the society. Perfect?..not even close. Matured?..I think yes. I agree completely that there are still dark elements of our supposedly advanced society. But I think an argument can be made that corrupt politicians or religious leaders prey on the less educated and the vulnerable - usually with promises of peace and prosperity. Isn't that message clear in Lord of the Flies?
In the book, not every single child turns to violence. I don't see a message there that all people are naturally prone to violence and will go out of control if the restraints are removed. I still see a message that when corrupt people are in control, bad things will happen.
Emily321, sorry to continue the comments well beyond the scope of your initial question. But thanks for opening the discussion. It has been interesting.
Edantes wrote: However, I think I would still answer yes to your final questionI am glad you do, it is true we come a long way.
Edantes wrote: In the book, not every single child turns to violence.
I agree. I am glad that not every child does. Golding paints a much darker picture of humanity, I assume this is the drama that every artist secretely loves.
Edantes wrote: I don't see a message there that all people are naturally prone to violence and will go out of control if the restraints are removed. I still see a message that when corrupt people are in control, bad things will happen
I partly agree. It is easy to blame the corrupt goverments, religious leaders and leadership, not that they should escape blame, but mass mentality also shapes society. A vast majority of people voted for Hitler, they considered him to be a revolutionary and he did exactly what he said he would in Mein Kampf, surely there were educated people who could see he was a monster but a large number did not.
I do believe, however, that the vast majority feel the effects of opression and injustice in any society. I think that it is a common feeling and not a common idea that can push for radical measures and for change, or initiate a revolt. Unfortunatelly the reallity is that it is a lone war for some. It is down to a few individuals who feel compelled to act and through their actions convince others to join. It is the struggle of few that call for an eight-hour work day, fair pay, equal pay, a fair pension system, free health care, free education, freedom of speech, human rights, etc. Although a majority will agree that yes this is beneficial to all, very few of these are effectively in place. Why? Is it because there are many who have so much to lose and therefore prefer to stick with Jack? Yes science and technology is there for some of us who live in countries where we enjoy a longer life and a better quality of life, but we indulge on indivudualism instead of understanding our difference and promote individuality. Golding is a pessimist. I consider some of his views but I prefer to think that eventually society will go through whatever trasnition system or state it requires before we are fully grown, but it will not happen without effort. There still are too many Jacks and their sycophants out there. We matured but not enough.
Emily321 please finish it and tell us what you make of it?
Emily321 wrote: "Guys, its okay! I finished it! Love all the advice you guys gave me, and I like looking at all the different opinions about the book.
I have to agree, the book turned out better than I thought. It..."
She already did.
It started slow and was way to much detail, but if you get through it you may enjoy it. Luckly I read this in class
I would say finish it, not because it's all that wonderful, but it's referenced so many times in different ways. I think having this book in your memory bank will just add to your ability to be well-rounded.
Christos wrote: "Edantes wrote: However, I think I would still answer yes to your final questionI am glad you do, it is true we come a long way.
Edantes wrote: In the book, not every single child turns to violen..."
Okay, so since you guys know I finished it, I guess I'll tell you what I thought (hope this answers some of your questions) :
Starting out, I disliked it. I thought it was a slow, pointless story and I had wasted my time picking it up. But once a few people commented and I started really reading, really looking into it and seeing all the symbols it contains (such as the conch, or the Lord Of The Flies), I realized that this book had so much more to offer than a quick read.
I read some of the earlier comments, and I disagree with some of them. I dont think that this book was saying that there isn't a speck of good in each of us. I think it was just trying to show us that while there's a speck of good, there's also a speck of bad. Some embrace the bad (Ex: Jack & Roger), while others embrace the good, or try to (Ex: Ralph, Piggy, & Simon.)
I also thought it was trying to point out that even a well made society can easily crumble and fall if its being led by corrupt/evil/all-around-bad people.
Also, I know I'm going on and on, so sorry! But, also, I thought it was showing how some people can easily be forced into things they dont really want to be a part of. Take Sam & Eric. They wanted to stay with Ralph, they wanted to be apart of his group, but in the end they were forced into Jacks Gang... but maybe thats not the best example, since that was by force. Maybe the better example would be when all the boys followed Jacks lead in treating Piggy badly, when there was honestly no reason to treat him badly at all. Ralph seemed fine with him at first, then when the others showed up and decided they didnt like Piggy, he decided he didnt like Piggy either.
In the end, I enjoyed the book. I thought it went a little overboard on details in some areas, and in others it didn't have quite ENOUGH detail, but all it all, Golding told the story well.
I remember reading this one back in high school. It was required reading. I probably wouldn't have read it if it weren't for that. My friend drew pictures related to the book that had a humorous twist, so that made it a bit more interesting. I say if you are able to make it fun, finish it. I will probably try to re-read this one again to see if it was as dreadful as I thought it was back then.
Finish the book! This is one of my all-time favorite novels since sophomore year in high school! SO worth it!
I hated the beginning, but after I read on for awhile I really got into it. For the record they had us read this when I was in high school with many other books of course. This and Of Mice and Men where the only ones I actually read, and If I recall (it has been years) it was a pretty short book so I would say finish it if you have not already.
This was definitely one of my least favorite books... but I would still say finish it. That might just be my must-finish-a-book-after-starting-it-OCD, but I don't remember it being slow the whole time and there were definitely a couple of exciting parts. But the book does teach a good lesson in how society becomes without authority. So I would say suffer through it. It's not that long.
This is an excellent book. It is a highly philosophical narrative that everyone should read. After all, in it Golding is proposing that, unlike Thomas More, who believed that, if left to their own devices, humankind would form a peaceful, enlightened civilization (see "Utopia") rather that humans will degrade into a bloodthirsty, power-hungry pack of animals. So, are you a Golding or a More?
Also, the symbolism is brilliant.
Consider this: how does "the beast" and its role in their fledgling civilization change through the course of the book?
It is also interesting to ponder the different characters' interactions with the pig's head.
I have read it several times, but I am getting ready to teach it in the fall to a class of honors high school seniors. I plan to focus on symbolism, but I will also spend time on the Golding vs. More questions. This will work really well with some of the other books I use such as Utopia and 1984.
Emily321 wrote: "This book is soo..... slow. Its like watching a snail. At first you think it might be entertaining, but then you realize that its not. Its just boring.Annywas, I'm reading this book, and I'm thin..."
okay so i didn't read the other 50 comments but i know for me it was required to read it for my English class so i know the feeling of it being slow. but what i liked was actually talking about the hidden meanings the book has. that's what got me through. is if i could pick up the hidden meanings of how us as humans would react if that happened to us. so i really recommend that if you are reading it for school and you don't understand some of it go and ask you're teacher or what not. i thank my teacher everyday i think about how i may not have wanted to read Lord of the Flies but how much i learned about myself while reading it :)
Amazing book, im happy to own it in my collections!
