Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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May Read 2011: Three Wrong Turns in the Desert
Mod
Sorry to crash this thread.
So as long as we're having this conversation I'm gonna post a link to an essay that I wrote for lambdaliterary.org about M/M readers and writers. Some of you may remember this essay from its original appearance on Reviews by Jessewave, trendsetter that she is. On Jessewave the essay is called "The Epic Win," and its retooled parallel universe clone is called "For the Sake of Vanyel." I feel pretty hopeful about the new guys running Lambda maybe having a more flexibility if only just because they agreed to post the essay, you know?
http://www.lambdaliterary.org/feature...
Josh wrote : I'm not sure I've ever seen such a massive literary appropriation of someone else's cultural experience before...Of course, the military life, for example, has been massively written about by people who have no experience with it whatsoever. And for some who serve, that is an all-encompassing and self-defining world too. It just happened since forever, instead of this rush to critical mass that is happening with m/m. And in this case, it's the personal in-the-bedroom experience as well as the cultural that is being usurped.
I wonder if it maybe feels more exploitative, because at the same time GLBT men and women are still fighting to have the world at large recognize that they have a right to actually have those experiences. Real gay romance is still marginalized, so it may be more painful to watch it already being trivialized.
Incidentally, it may be money that prompts some of the m/m writing, but I think not most. As Cleon says, fanfic is a case in point. I know personally I started writing this genre about 1974 (ouch, dating myself, but I was very young), and only tried to publish now when my husband complained about the time it was eating up. Most women who write just love the potential for star-crossed angst and multiple hot guys.
So I have to hope that the hetero acceptance we are generating is worth the invasion of privacy. How many women read Suzanne Brockmann's Hot Target and moved toward championing gay rights (and reading m/m romance)? If I can get some women here in Minnesota hooked on m/m, maybe they'll vote against the damned constitutional amendment in 2012. That would be a worthwhile thing.
Coming late to the party...I read many different genres, and I admit to a certain bias when reading m/m books written by women. Of course there are women who do write male characters well; however, some resort to "chicks with dicks" cliches because they have found an audience (primarily with women). It may be wrong, but I tend to stay with male authors or women writers who have been recommended by male readers.I am of Asian heritage, and it bothers me when I read fiction that is someone's (read non-Asian) idea of Asian culture, history, attitude, etc. Yes, some authors research in-depth and do an exceptional job; but for the most part, it has as much basis in reality as Spaghetti Westerns have to the actual history of the late 19th century American West. I will be honest and state that if a non-Asian received an Asian specific award - it would likely bother me because there are so many Asian artists, writers, actors, and directors who will never be recognized by mainstream award committees.
Fiction is the opportunity to use the imagination and creative talent. It will take you to worlds that do not exist, and I appreciate that aspect because I love escaping my own reality. I do, however, respect the desire to be recognized by one's own peers rather than have it diluted and so inclusive and politically correct that it loses its raison d’etre - its essential self.
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I don't know. I find a lot of the kinky stuff so extreme as to be comfortably unrealistic. Like we all know none of this is NEVAH going to happen in the same way we know space aliens are unlikely to land in the backyard and take over the wading pool. So it's fun and exciting to read about, but it's also easy to dismiss as a kind of fantasy.
(And there are those who feel embarrassed and uncomfortable about their fantasies, let's not forget. Surely I'm not the only one whose mom stashed her romance novels?)
But a story with a real emotional core...a story that makes you cry, makes you laugh, makes you angry at the injustice...that makes you feel and think? Those stories have far more lasting impact. A story like The Charioteer, for example, that touched as many straight readers as it did gay.
Many many women write slash fanfictions without monetary compensation at all. Fanfiction writers are far larger in number than original fiction writers. In fact, many current authors graduated from fanfic, like Erastes & Blaine (I knew them when they were in Harry Potter fandom). So their initial reason for writing in this genre is definitely not for the money. This genre definitely explodes because of the popularity of slash fanfiction.
I do agree with that. I have no problem with fan fiction or fan fiction writers -- I think fan fiction is an incredible, amazing art form.
But I also know -- especially within the current wave of writers -- that there are a number of writers who admit privately that they are writing m/m because this is where the money is. Or at least where they hope the money it is.
And I'm not even saying this is wrong, exactly. Storytelling is a strange magic. The storyteller is not the story. In fact, often the people who *are* the story can't get enough distance from their own experience to effectively make up tales about it.
Someone mentioned the military -- same thing with cops an cop stories. For every Joseph Wambaugh there are a lot more cops with fabulous experiences to draw upon, even fabulous stories to tell -- but without the gift of storytelling.
And it *is* a gift. The ability to shape a story, to craft words in such a way that the reader loses her own reality and enters yours...hell yeah, it's a gift. Or, more accurately, a skill -- although sometimes it's both.
It's a fairly recent idea -- that of platform. The idea that it's most desirable to BE the thing you write about -- whether it's a cop or a soldier or a black woman or a gay man. Is that fiction or the literary version of a reality show? I don't know what it ultimately means to fiction and writing -- storytelling is in such a state of flux right now that this is just one more fascinating development.
Mod
Yes. Absolutely. Nobody enjoys being commercialized or trivialized.
But at the same time...we're all riders on the earth together, brothers in eternal cold...
The truth being that the human experience is...we're all fair game. Our experience is just a blip on the radar. As important as it seems at the moment of our...er, blipping.
I find a lot of the kinky stuff so extreme as to be comfortably unrealistic. Like we all know none of this is NEVAH going to happen in the same way we know space aliens are unlikely to land in the backyard and take over the wading pool. So it's fun and exciting to read about, but it's also easy to dismiss as a kind of fantasy. When I start reading BDSM books, I thought they're so extreme. I was so surprised that some of the books are rated "light" when IMHO it's already extreme.
Then I found some hardcore porn, then I found a thread, which consist some disturbing pictures. (view spoiler)
Suffice to say my innocence (what's left of it) is destroyed forever. And I remember Anne telling us about a sub who's shell shocked for days after he and his Dom played electroshock? I also remember reading somewhere from an ER nurse who found a dead gerbil up on someone's um... behind? And there is a club for people with castration fantasy, and some who act on it.
Sometimes reality is worse than fiction.
Josh wrote: "we're all riders on the earth together, brothers in eternal cold... ."This is a very beautiful quote, Josh.
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Sometimes I wonder if by reading and recommending m/m romance as a straight woman..."
You'll just drive yourself crazy overthinking this stuff. And I'm really uncomfortable when one group of people starts telling another...it's wrong to find this sexy or interesting or fun. Assuming we're not talking about injuring -- I mean really injuring -- others.
Cleon wrote: "I find a lot of the kinky stuff so extreme as to be comfortably unrealistic. Like we all know none of this is NEVAH going to happen in the same way we know space aliens are unlikely to land in the ..."I didn't tell you about the electro-shock guy, but I can tell you all about things found inside people. I know plenty of paramedics, and dead gerbils aren't that big a deal, trust me. It's an incredibly common phenomenon.
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "I find a lot of the kinky stuff so extreme as to be comfortably unrealistic. Like we all know none of this is NEVAH going to happen in the same way we know space aliens are unlikely t..."Oh, it's someone else then. Still, you always manage to give me nightmare fodder...
Mod
Sorry to crash this thread.
So as long as we're having this conversation I'm gonna post a link to an essay that I wrote for lambdaliterary.org about M/M readers and writers. Som..."
An excellent essay. And I would agree that popular entertainment -- films, books, comics, TV -- probably do more to effect social change than all the non-fiction and literary fiction combined.
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This is a very beautiful quote, Josh."
Archibald MacLeish. One of my favorite poets.
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Gulp.
Great essay, Nicole. I really do believe we can change hearts and minds through our writing. With or without gerbils.
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But yes, I think you're right Neil, we can change hearts and minds through our writing! I know we can!
Every time I come across one of these discussions, I stop reading this genre for weeks. It's so divisive and difficult to come to terms with as a casual reader. The worst, is of course the months long thread at lambda. I have posed this question to a few male friends (gay and otherwise) and also a couple of authors (DJ Manly and here we have Neil). Even their opinions are all over the place.
I'm left with the feeling that in the very least, I should only purchase books written by gay men. And of course, this is almost impossible, because so many women are writing under male names.
It's very discouraging to be, basically, labeled a pervert for reading these books.
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Thanks Neil. I really do think that putting the essay up on their site shows the new Lambda crew might be at least willing to consider different POVs on this isolationist argument. I know its probably a painful subject for everyone after last year's epic screed war, but if nobody talks about it again, we'll never get our house in order. (By that I mean members of that organization, which includes me.)
I was going to try to see if I could open up some sort of dialogue about it at the awards this year but I had to cancel my trip to NY.
I would really love to see Lambda sponsor a series of romantic fiction awards. I wrote to them with the idea, but I think it probably seemed really insane. I think its hard for people who do not participate in the romance industry to understand how important it is--or how huge it is.
I would have thought that focusing on romance writing would sort of be a no-brainer in an organization made up of individuals brought together by sexual (and by extension, romantic) minority, but there's a long-standing scorn of romantic fiction that is a real barrier to progress in that area.
My reasoning behind a separate series of Lambda-sponsored romantic fiction awards is that romance, more than any other genre, needs the intervention of a prestigious advocate organization. Because the laundry list of sorts of love stories that RWA & RT refuse to consider for awards or to review is as long as your arm. I mean, no literary fiction publisher ever publicly stated "literature is between a man and a woman," right?
Anyhoo, I won't post my entire argument and plan of action here. It's too long and too unlikely to actually be implemented. :) Suffice it to say, though, that I really believe the way to set a trend would be to just step up, represent for and own GLBT romance.
Sadly, it probably won't happen.
(And just in case you didn't know, snopes.com gives the gerbil thing a great big fat false.)
http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/...
Mod
Don't worry, Lori. As a genuine homosexual (not a man, but I think I still count) I officially give you permission to read and enjoy gay characters. In fact, I salute you for it. I also salute you for being a good enough ally to actually worry that you're doing something harmful. But honestly, you're not. Truly. Just believe me on this one, okay? :)
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So there once again is that age-old battle between serious literature and the stuff for the unwashed masses (which is where my own reading taste squarely lies). Popular fiction has to struggle for respect and romance always seems to have the toughest battle. It's easy to see why the potential here is overlooked, even dismissed.
Nicole wrote: "Lori K wrote: "Every time I come across one of these discussions, I stop reading this genre for weeks.Don't worry, Lori. As a genuine homosexual (not a man, but I think I still count) I officiall..."
Hey Nicole, thanks for that. As it happens I just bought
a couple of days ago. Looking forward to it.
Nicole wrote: "(And just in case you didn't know, snopes.com gives the gerbil thing a great big fat false.)"Thanks Nicole. It does sound exactly like an urban legend.
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Josh wrote: "I go on Nicole reading jags. I gulped down the Hell Cops and then the Bellingham series in what felt like one go. At the end of it I felt like you feel when you get home after a particularly nice v..."Once I started the Bellingham series, I couldn't stop! I love all Nicole's work. I am saving her other works to when I read comfort read. lol.
Neil wrote: "Great essay, Nicole. I really do believe we can change hearts and minds through our writing. With or without gerbils."*Snort* Totally picturing picketing gerbils, now. What would their little signs say?
Josh wrote: "I think part of the difficulty (if you want to look at it that way) is that gay fiction has such a strong literary tradition. Even the pulps have some incredibly gorgeous writing. Hansen's work as ..."I don't get this. I have never gotten it. I can logically understand the reasoning behind the arguments the literati (or whomever) put forth, but aren't they human, too? And isn't part of being human about emotion? So what's wrong with writing about the biggest emotion of all, the one most people devote much of their lives to finding?
And throwing in sex is sort of like the cherry on the sundae.
NB -- Yeah, the gerbil thing is false. They have little claws. Most people aren't this stupid.
Mod
That's very true, but I posit that last years LLF debacle actually had very little to do with writing at all.
I propose that if the purpose of an activist organization is to draw attention to or protect a marginalized group go where the group is most marginalized and stand up for them there. Failing to include and defend M/M authors (and by extension their gay characters) was the fatal error in reasoning that occurred previously.
Here's my take: rather than seeing that M/M romance writers were coming to LLF as refugees from their own, exclusionary genre, they were seen as some sort of invading hoarde that needed to be prevented from subsuming the pure dialogue in this theoretically queer-only space. Being responsive, and managing these writers (and their enthusiastic readers) through a dedicated blog or page within the LLF site would have been a good choice. Unfortunately, many members of the GLBT community just got frightened and angry and aggressive.
And even more tragically, I don't think anyone ever addressed what I suspect was the real root of that fear: that M/M writers and readers were not allies to our cause, but profiteers who were there to siphon off money and then abandon us in our time of political struggle. And though that is a predictable fear for a marginalized group, it is also mostly irrational. But because no one stated this true fear outright it could never be dispelled. Rather than saying, "We're afraid that you will take what you want and abandon us when we need you," people said, "You're objectifying our lives." As if objectification was some unusual perverse activity that doesn't occur in... oh, say, every single commercial ever made.
Unfortunately, what then occurred is that the refugee romance authors also became angry and fearful. The rejection played into a deep insecurity felt by most genre authors that their peers do not respect them. Again, M/M authors didn't particularly speak of this or if they did, no one responded in a compassionate or reassuring way.
And then it all devolved from there. It was like watching two abused children duking it out in the living room of their foster home over who owns the bean bag chair--unnecessary and sad.
However, I digress. Yeah, I agree that it is unrealistic to assume that the bulk of genre writing (except maybe mystery) will be able to cross into literary fiction while remaining completely relevant to its own field and readership.
I think that's why I proposed a separate series of awards where the works could be judged by their merit and relevance to the genre instead of merely by their degree of literary accomplishment. Especially in genre writing, whose stories often don't match or actually suffer from the application of literary style. The Spectrum Awards do this for SF & F. I know that the Rainbow Awards exist, but they don't sponsor an actual event anyplace. I think it would be good to apply the Spectrum or Tiptree method which is to announce the winner and short list simultaneously, then throw a reception at some sort of convention.
In my vision, there is a hotel meeting room reserved for a couple of hours where readers and authors may mingle. There is cheese and crackers and plastic glasses half full of 2 Buck Chuck. There is a disco ball just for the hell of it--maybe a few hot guys and swank chicks offering free bookmarks like cigarette girls in 40's films. Perhaps if our cheese and crackers are nice enough, we might lure Barbara Vey in. Passersby may wonder, "what party is this?" and peek their wee, tiny faces through the door. And lo, they will behold our free booze and snacks and thirstily enter and then, while chewing--while thinking, "Keebler sure makes a good cracker," be introduced to the existence of GLBT romance, and it shall be good. Or at least not really frightening.
That is my grand hallucination! BWAH HA HA HA HA!!!!
But, you know it's not really my decision.
Mod
Aw... You're sweet.
Nicole wrote: "Perhaps if our cheese and crackers are nice enough, we might lure Barbara Vey in. Passersby may wonder, "what party is this?" and peek their wee, tiny faces through the door. And lo, they will behold our free booze and snacks and thirstily enter and then, while chewing--while thinking, "Keebler sure makes a good cracker," be introduced to the existence of GLBT romance, and it shall be good. Or at least not really frightening...."
:) OMG, now I can't wait to start the book.
Nicole wrote: "Josh wrote: Popular fiction has to struggle for respect and romance always seems to have the toughest battle. It's easy to see why the potential here is overlooked, even dismissed. That's very tr..."
So (other than the huge time commitment and the existence of your other life) what's stopping you from holding said awards ceremony? It seems as if you or anyone else who's dialed in to the M/M writing community could get the ball rolling.
The way I see it, someone has to do it eventually, because LLF seems unlikely to (this assumption is based entirely on what I've read here, since I haven't done a lot of independent research). THis is how all the other awards programs got started -- someone saw the need and filled it.
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You're welcome. I hope you like the book. I wrote it (and the rest of that series) as a sort of love letter to Josh.
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Other than those few meager items? (ha!) Money. And the need for the support of a larger organization to lend prestige and validity.
And honestly, though you might think I'm really dialed in because I post here, I'm not well-networked enough to bring something like that off as the stunning success I imagine it to be in my hallucination.
Maybe if the GayRomLit conference is successful they'll consider starting an award.
Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: So (other than the huge time commitment and the existence of your other life) what's stopping you from holding said awards ceremony? Other than those few meager items? (ha!) Money. An..."
It's too bad, because your vision of it is fantastic. As for money, I guess I was thinking that's where the wealthy benefactors come in. I hear they grow on trees.
Mod
I think where the disconnect is coming for you is that you are thinking that "literary" is a kind of story structure, but it might be easier to think of it as a sort of prose style. Generally speaking literary style minimizes drama and focuses on meaning--particularly personal or social meaning. Often there are proportionally few dramatized scenes and sparse dialogue. Literary style focuses on the worldview of the author. Oftentimes the story is presented almost like a geometry proof with each scene building and providing evidence for an abstract idea.
In my opinion, strict literary style is not really compatible with romance (the story structure that we call "romance") writing because romance emphasizes drama, demands in-the-scene action and lives in its dialogue--all things that are necessarily minimized when one creates literary style.
And just to emphasize it: neither sort of story is inherently better than the other, really. (I mean, I know--I write both.) They're just different. They have different goals.
Nicole wrote: "Anne wrote: I don't get this. I have never gotten it. I can logically understand the reasoning behind the arguments the literati (or whomever) put forth, but aren't they human, too? And isn't part ..."It's amazing that I made it all the way through college (with an aunt who's an english professor, no less) and no one has ever clearly explained this to me. Thank you, it was very helpful.
So, if I understand you correctly, this is the distinction people draw when they separate genre fiction from literary fiction.
Mod
It's more the distinction between popular fiction of all genres and literary novels. Basically, popular fiction is written with the entertainment of the reader as it's primary goal. Literary fiction can be viewed as having a primary goal of proving or demonstrating a concept.
Because literary fiction is often illustrating unpleasant or contrary opinions, to be successful the prose must be virtually flawless, deeply poetic or both.
Literary fiction can use genre storylines or structures, as per Josh's example of J. Hansen's "Fadeout," which has a mystery plot but is written in a deeply literary style.
An argument can be advanced (and maybe even supported) that Hansen's goal in Fadeout was first to prove the essential humanity of his character even though he was gay--which makes more sense if you think of the book in its historical context--and second to make a mystery. When both goals are achieved in equal strength, as with Fadeout, the book achieves a sort of enlightenment and is hence lifted into the heavens by tiny cherubic librarians who name it a literary masterpiece.
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http://bit.ly/mtUMgo"
That's a great essay.
I agree, it was definitely an essay directly on-point with the topic and well-written.
Mod
I agree. I'm entirely with you on that.
It's funny how we take the topic of love seriously in poetry and song, but in ordinary fiction...I don't know! I truly do puzzle over it.
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Bingo.
Now that the emotions have died down -- well, a bit --perhaps the dialog will become more productive. I'd like to think it's moving in that direction, and, yes, I agree that posting your essay is a positive indicator. Hopeful anyway.
Mod
That's very tr..."
Just a passing comment that this little post of yours really nailed a number of vital points -- including the important one that at the heart of all this on both sides is fear and pain.
I do think your idea is a terrific one. Who knows. Stranger things have come to pass.
Nicole wrote: "Because literary fiction is often illustrating unpleasant or contrary opinions, to be successful the prose must be virtually flawless, deeply poetic or both. "No pressure.
I think in my mind, fiction is divided into bookstore categories. For me, if it's not 'literature' it's genre. I consider pop fiction sort of an overarching category which all sorts of genre's can be put into (but never literature). Pop fiction is what they put on the display kiosk at the front of the store. Literature is the stuff you need a ladder and/or sales associate to find.
Josh wrote: "It's funny how we take the topic of love seriously in poetry and song, but in ordinary fiction...I don't know! I truly do puzzle over it. "I've always assumed it's at least partly because the main (perceived) audience of romantic prose is female. At least in the Western world.
Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "It's funny how we take the topic of love seriously in poetry and song, but in ordinary fiction...I don't know! I truly do puzzle over it. "I've always assumed it's at least partly be..."
In Asia as well, Anne. :) I think it's pretty much universal.
Talking about Awards, there is an award that gives the same chance to everyone, regardless of their gender to participate and mostly focus on romance. It's Elisa Rolle's Rainbow Awards. Of course, it's an online award and by no means comparable to Lambda, but it's a great nonetheless. The award really do need help though, especially in finding juries. Right now all the juries are the ones who volunteer, regardless of background and experience. Perhaps there should be expert panel, who screen the initial entries or decide the finalists?
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "It's funny how we take the topic of love seriously in poetry and song, but in ordinary fiction...I don't know! I truly do puzzle over it. "I've always assumed it's at le..."
What's the incentive, for the bigger awards, to be on the panel? Prestige? I assume it isn't money....
Nicole said earlier "I know that the Rainbow Awards exist, but they don't sponsor an actual event anyplace. I think it would be good to apply the Spectrum or Tiptree method which is to announce the winner and short list simultaneously, then throw a reception at some sort of convention." I think a reception is key for people to really feel recognized, and yes, 'names' are important, too.
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "It's funny how we take the topic of love seriously in poetry and song, but in ordinary fiction...I don't know! I truly do puzzle over it. "I've always assu..."
Oops, Nicole already mentioned Rainbow Awards. Anyway, it's one of the place where I go for rec when I want to read something. So, although there might be no monetary incentive, it'll still be a promotion opportunity for the winners.
Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "It's funny how we take the topic of love seriously in poetry and song, but in ordinary fiction...I don't know! I truly do puzzle over it. "I'v..."
Sorry, Cleon, I wasn't trying to draw attention to the fact it was already mentioned. I just think both points -- that there's no award ceremony and that the judges aren't 'names' -- are important. It's dumb that they are, but IMHO awards are for the awardees more than the public, and I think those things matter to the people who are receiving the awards.
Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Cleon wrote: "Anne wrote: "Josh wrote: "It's funny how we take the topic of love seriously in poetry and song, but in ordinary fiction...I don't know! I truly do puzzle o..."No, that's OK. I agree with you, but sometimes the 'names' of the judges bring more credibility to the awards.
Q&A with Josh Lanyon
Books mentioned in this topic
Primal Red (other topics)Lessons in Love (other topics)
Lessons in Love (other topics)
Lessons in Love (other topics)
I am not sure comfortable is the right word, or familiar. Some of the bestsellers are menage (sometimes into 4 or more persons at once) and BDSM, which are even more not-mainstream then the average vanilla gay sex.
It's mind-boggling how many people are writing in this sub-genre merely because it looks lucrative. Writers go where the money is, of course, but in this case where the "money" is lies with someone else's cultural heritage.
Many many women write slash fanfictions without monetary compensation at all. Fanfiction writers are far larger in number than original fiction writers. In fact, many current authors graduated from fanfic, like Erastes & Blaine (I knew them when they were in Harry Potter fandom). So their initial reason for writing in this genre is definitely not for the money. This genre definitely explodes because of the popularity of slash fanfiction.
ETA: I am not disapproving your point, Josh. Just share my observation.