Robert E. Howard Readers discussion
Howard the Poet
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Just when you think you know somebody, you read this...
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Maybe he liked Sappho and wanted to write like her poems ?The latter half of the poem definitly celebrates,is pro lesbianism.
Mohammed wrote: "Maybe he liked Sappho and wanted to write like her poems ?The latter half of the poem definitly celebrates,is pro lesbianism."
Yeah - on reading again, it's like the first half, ending:
I have spread the round white things
Of naked and frightened queens.
is written from the perspective of a pillaging reaver taking women as spoils of war, then the second half is written from the perspective of a woman grown tired of men and turning to her own gender.
Read as two halves, the contradictions that I found confusing resolve themselves. I find it a surprising viewpoint for REH, given his location in time and place. It's good to find concrete evidence that he was not the two-dimensional, misogynistically macho writer that some would paint him.
Michael: If I'm not mistaken, Howard included a subtle lesbian theme in the Conan story, "Red Nails." He even wrote about it in a letter to Lovecraft.
Ó Ruairc wrote: "Michael: If I'm not mistaken, Howard included a subtle lesbian theme in the Conan story, "Red Nails." He even wrote about it in a letter to Lovecraft."I don't remember that - been a while since I read Red Nails. Not that I'm now going to be scouring REH for crypto-gay references!
I've only been a member of this Group for a couple of days and already my appreciation of REH has grown!
I have not read Red Nails story but i have heard about that subtle lesbian theme in it.I have read alot about what REH,used for his works read and you get more respect for his knowledge afer that.
I have read (and like!) "Red Nails," and didn't recall any lesbian theme in it. But I have been known to miss homosexual content in fiction because I don't look for it; and O'Ruairc's reference to a letter by REH himself mentioning the theme here prompted me to do some research, and to reread parts of the story. It IS true that REH had lesbianism in his mind as a trait of some of the inhabitants of Xuchotl (though his actual expression of it certainly is "subtle," to put it mildly.) But it wouldn't be correct to argue that he does so in a "pro-lesbian" way --at least, not here. (Some of the information below comes from the really fascinating Wikipedia article on this story, available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Nails .) "Red Nails" was serialized in July-Oct. 1936 (it's actually the last Conan story Howard ever wrote). It's set in a decaying, dying city that's depicted as culturally and socially degenerate, unhealthy and unnatural. That theme was in Howard's mind already in 1935, when the story was gestating. Early that year, he told Novalyne Price, "You see, girl, when a civilization begins to decay and die, the only thing men or women think about is the gratification of their body's desires. They become preoccupied with sex. It colors their laws, their religion --every aspect of their lives.... Girl, I'm working on a yarn like that now --a Conan yarn. Listen to me. When you have a dying civilization, the normal, accepted lifestyle ain't strong enough to satisfy the damned insatiable appetites of the courtesans and, finally, of all the people. They turn to Lesbianism and things like that to satisfy their desires." (At the time, he told Price he was going to title the story "The Red Flame of Passion;" but it's usually thought that this eventually became "Red Nails.") The letter to Lovecraft that O'Ruairc mentioned was written in late 1935, and contains the words, "The last yarn I sold to Weird Tales --and it may well be the last fantasy I'll ever write-- was a three-part Conan serial which was the bloodiest and most sexy weird story I ever wrote. I have been dissatisfied with my handling of decaying races in stories, for the reason that degeneracy is so prevalent in such races that it can not be ignored as a motive and as a fact if the fiction is to have any claim to realism. I have ignored it in all other stories, as one of the taboos, but I did not ignore it in this story...." While he doesn't explicitly name the story or refer to lesbianism here, what he says clearly suggests that "Red Nails" is what he's referring to, and that he's using "degeneracy" as a euphemism for homosexual activity.
By modern standards, the references to lesbianism in the story itself are very minor, and not stressed with a lot of hoopla; I didn't even remember them until some rereading jogged my recollection. But there ARE a few statements to the effect that Valeria fears that some of the Xuchotil females might harbor a "degenerate" (i.e., homoerotic) interest in her, and a few indications that her fears aren't without grounds, especially as regards Tascela (who at least twice speaks of Valeria as "handsome"). But though Valeria expects homosexual rape at Tascela's hands, it turns out that the latter's purposes are "darker than the degeneracy she had anticipated" --and involve sucking out her life force, rather than sex.
Whether or not there's any truth to Howard's theory of homosexual activity as being, in some cases, a symptom of the ennui and craving for physically novel experience engendered by a decaying cultural environment environment might be debated. (Personally I think that there is, because IMO there are multiple causes of homosexual activity, not all of them stemming from what would today be called a homosexual "orientation." The cause apparently presupposed in "Lesbia," though I haven't read it --women whose only heterosexual experience being as brutalized, raped chattels for male conquerors finding an outlet for their sexual feelings in each other, is different, and that difference might account for Howard's more sympathetic and accepting reaction there.) In any case, though, it isn't likely that today's homosexual movement would want to embrace Tascela as a poster girl, or claim this story as favorable PR!
Fascinating information, Werner. Thanks for this post! Regarding the letter Howard wrote to Lovecraft, the version I read was the same as you have copied here; however, Howard concludes the last paragraph by writing: "When or if, you ever read it, I'd like to know how you like my handling of the subject of lesbianism." So he either did mention lesbianism, or he didn't. I reckon it depends on the source. I found the letter I read in: Selected Letters, 1931-1936, P.72.Wild-eyed and raw when I first read "Red Nails," I was unaware of such erotic sub-plots. It wasn't until I read Howard's letter to Lovecraft when I finally realized that such suggestive scenarios do exist in the story.
Selected Letters, 1931-1936
O'Ruairc, I stand corrected --he did mention lesbianism in that letter, then! (The Wikipedia article where I got the material I quoted didn't say that he didn't; that was just my inference from the part they quoted there, but they didn't quote the whole letter, as you have it in the collection you cited.) That Selected Letters collection would be a real treasure trove for REH scholars!
REH was big fan of Sappho, but seems to have doubted that she was a lesbian. In a 1928 letter to Harold Preece he writes: "Sappho: doubtless the greatest women poet who ever lived; certainly one of the greatest of all time. The direct incentive of the lyric age of Greece, the age that for pure beauty, surpasses all others. How shall a pen like mine sing of the beauties of Sappho, of the golden streams which flowed from her pen, of her voice which was fairer than the song of a dark star, of the fragrance of her hair and shimmering loveliness of her body? Has it been proved that she was a Lesbian in the generally accepted sense of the word? Who ever accused her but the early Christian --ignorant monks and monastery swine who were set on breaking all the old golden idols; and Daudet, a libertine, a grovelling ape who could see no good in anything; Mure, a drunkard and a blatant braggart, whose word I hold of less weight than a feather drifting before a south wind. May the saints preserve Comparetti, who was man enough to uphold pure womanhood, and scholar enough to prove what he said. No prude was Sappho, but a full-blooded woman, passionate and open-hearted, with a golden song and a soul large enough to enfold the whole world."
REH obviously doesn't think Sappho is as innocent as a lamb, but he certainly falls short of calling her a lesbian.Speaking (writing) of lesbians, I'm glad we got the issue of Howard's letter to Lovecraft settled, Werner. My thinking was that you may have come across a different letter other than the one I read.
I didn't know "Red Nails" was almost entitled "The Red Flame of Passion." Most interesting.
Yes --personally, I like the title "Red Nails" better. It's more distinctive and memorable, and "The Red Flame of Passion" sounds a bit too florid. (REH must have come to similar conclusions!)
Doesnt matter what REH thought i have read many Sappho poems for class and there is no doubt which sex she preferred. Some of her stuff outright classy erotica.Cool to see how well read he was that he knows even Sappho. He is really far from the Small town texan that didnt travel far from home. In his reading,letters he knows alot of world lit.
Mohammed wrote: "Doesnt matter what REH thought i have read many Sappho poems for class and there is no doubt which sex she preferred. Some of her stuff outright classy erotica.Cool to see how well read he was ..."
Yes, I think REH was suffering from a bit of denial here. There is little doubt about Sappho's sexual orientation. I suppose in Howard's day it was a little harder to acknowledge same sex relationships, even when it was patently obvious. Just the fact that he was reading Sappho in a small town in rural Texas in the 1920's is amazing.
I thought the Roaring 20's were pretty wide open - a reaction to the Victorian era - no? (Just in the eastern US?) I was reading about a movie... possibly "The Maltese Falcon" about how the 50's version had to be toned down so much to get past the censors compared to the earlier version & the article went on to mention something about the tides of 'morality' in the 20th century. Wish I could remember the source more accurately, but all I remember is the impression that the 20's through the 40's were pretty open, then the 50's & early 60's were another mini-Victorian era as far as sex went. Then we went the other way again.
The 20s ,40s wasnt so open sex wise in the movies anyway. I have seen movie versions of PI noir that had the sexy dialouge being cut to be so subtle to not shock. In The Big Sleep they make joke about horses to talk about sex. The books,short stories was more free. Talking popular culture of US.
A book that might be relevant to this discussion is Pre-Code Hollywood: Sex, Immorality, and Insurrection in American Cinema; 1930-1934 by Thomas Doherty. (I haven't read it, but I've read at least one review of it in the library trade journals.) His thesis is that prior to the adoption of the Hays Code in 1934 (which cooled things down considerably) at least some Hollywood movies were fairly iconoclastic and uncensored in their treatment of "taboo" subjects.
Semi-off topic, but: Regarding his literature habits, REH was immensely well-read. Cross Plains is small today, but was more populated back then. It's also close to a larger town called Brownwood. I've been to REH's house on three occasions, and have even been lucky enough to speak to a few people who knew him in their youths. REH also traveled fairly regularly across Texas and New Mexico. On one occasion he somehow ended up as a judge at a beauty contest in Galveston, so he surely had access to the bookshops in Houston. 'Cimmeria' was written about the hills outside of Fredericksburg, (which is also mentioned in Keruoac's 'On the Road') located just a bit north of Austin and San Antonio, so he would have had access to shops there. He actually penned the poem in the town of Mission, which is in the 'Valley' or southern part of Texas near Laredo, so he doubtless hit the border. I believe in Mark Finn's book 'Blood and Thunder' he mentions him visiting a clinic in Temple or Tyler...the book's in a storage bin so I can't check....anyway, either one would bring him to proximity with Dallas. I doubt a man of his day and age (or mine, for that matter) would miss New Orleans, either...but I'll leave that to speculation until I can check a source.
He had a good deal of respect for Sappho from what I understand.
Robert E. Howard Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Pre-Code Hollywood: Sex, Immorality, and Insurrection in American Cinema; 1930-1934 (other topics)Robert E. Howard: Selected Letters, 1931-1936 (other topics)
On first reading, it seemed that Howard was accepting of lesbianism, then on re-reading that he was not. Now I'm not quite sure what his attitude is - it seems a bit mixed. Is this pro, con or deliberately ambivalent?