Week 2 - through Chapter 40

[Everyman]

Evalyn wrote: "The only difference I see is that the whales were (and are)living, breathing creatures whereas the petroleum doesn't come from anything living, although both have/had an environmental impact. "

Yes, there is certainly a difference (though from a purely objective point of view does it matter that the whales they killed are more magnificent to human eyes than the pigs we kill for our food?)

But let's not forget that petroleum is derived from previously-living things. It's true, men didn't kill them, nature did that eons ago, but as far as the lamps and machinery are concerned, it doesn't much matter to them whether the animals that produce the oil they rely on died many thousand of years ago or just a few years prior (depending on how long it takes the whaling ship to return home and sell its products).

Still, there is something visceral in our modern minds that recoils against this whaling, isn't there?

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: "So with whaling--if the sperm whales were only killed for that white substance used for oil--I recoil. If the whole animal was used--I don't see a problem --as long as they are hunted in a sustainable way. "

I suspect we'll hear more about this as the book goes on.

[Silver]

Everyman wrote: "Okay, this is a first for me. In Chapter 38, Melville writes "The white whale is their demigorgon."

Demigorgon? Never heard of it. So I googled it. Nothing useful. No definition of it. So I ..."

That is a rather curious word which Melville used for the whale, I have to say that to me the idea of a demigorgon, does not quite make much sense. I am not quite sure how one could be half-turned to stone. But perhaps Melville is simply trying to convey the idea that this white whale is such a terrible monster, and fearful creature and there is something about it which makes it more than just a normal whale. But indeed it has become something of legend.

In a way it reminds me of how Ahab himself is portrayed at times of being something more than just man. When Ahab is first described by Peleg and Bildad that refer to him as being a god-like man and he is painted in this picture of somehow standing above all other men.

In this same way it seems Melville wants to convey the idea of the white whale as being this truly monstrous, larger than life, and standing out above all other whales.

[Silver]

S. Rosemary wrote: "Bill wrote: "And anyone else's thoughts as well--particularly this part:

"All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event—in the living act, the undoubted deed—there, some..."

I have to say I did find Ahab's quest for some sort of personal vengeance, and his personification of the whale has having personally caused him an offence or acted out against him in some malicious way, and his becoming so obsessed in his need to avenge himself to be a rather odd in a man whom presumably is an experienced whaler.

As one would think that most men who have been within the trade would have a basic understanding of the risks involved within thier work and would take it par for the course as accepted hazards of thier job, thus Ahab should know better than to acutally personalize the injury that was done to him.

[Silver]

In regards to chapter 40 I did find the sudden change of format in the way in which it was written to be somewhat curious, but for me it read as a way of giving the reader the slice of a day in the life of a sailor, so to speak. It offered a glimpse of what life may have been like on a day to day basis for the sailors , and in a way that perhaps was more inviting the reader into this life, and making it more vivid or lively, than if Ishmael had simply dictated to the reader what was happening or what they were doing.

It was capturing a moment within their lives, and allowing the reader to simply peer through the window to watch, and the play like format give a more "real" feeling.

I also think as Bill mentioned prior that there was perhaps meant to be the shadow of something ominous passing over this little happy scene, this moment of frivolousness among the men, while that shadow of the white whale is looming before them, and they are trapped with the madness of their captain and his obsession. Perhaps it is the last time we shall see them in such a carefree moment.

[[deleted user]]

Silver wrote: "In regards to chapter 40 I did find the sudden change of format in the way in which it was written to be somewhat curious, but for me it read as a way of giving the reader the slice of a day in the..."

What strikes me about it is that it shows how quickly after the intensity of Ahab's Moby speech that all the guys are pretty much back to normal. They were all very caught up emotionally by Ahab's dramatic "scene" -- I say scene because I think he deliberately staged it for maximum dramatic value. But unlike for Ahab, for the run-of-the-mill sailors, their focus just won't and can't stay on that one obsessive idea on and on. And this play structure allows us to see into their various heads and to marvel at how different they all are from Ahab regarding this quest.

[Silver]

M wrote: "Silver wrote: "In regards to chapter 40 I did find the sudden change of format in the way in which it was written to be somewhat curious, but for me it read as a way of giving the reader the slice ..."

Yes that is a very good point and I think that is another good reason for using this device. In contrast with the intensity of Ahab's great speech, and the chilling effect of his words, and his deep sincerity in what he says. Right after the fact, we see that the rest of the crew are off thinking about dancing girls, and idle nonsense, and maybe their lack of really taking Ahab in his madness more serious will prove to be their folly. The fact that they so easily seem to brush the whole thing off, and act as if this will be yet just another whaling trip, when there seems to be strong indicators that it will be anything but a typical. In a way this is similar to how Ishmael ignores the warnings of Elijah and brushes him off as a mad man.

They do not in fact see the full gravity of the situation in which they have been placed in. As well as perhaps the way in which they so easily turn back to their own daily lives and idle concerns and do not share in this burning of obsession of Ahab's shows Ahab's isolation, that he is a man alone. In a way it is almost pitiful, that he makes such a great impassioned speech, and calls all his men around hoping to inspire them and impart the great significance upon them, and yet, it fails to penetrate into their hearts, as if in a way they are simply indulging him and than laughing at him behind their backs as just being some crazy old coot.

[Audrey]

Both in reading the novel and in the posts, I'm fining the double picture of Ahab quite fascinating. In the course of this discussion, he's been compared both to Satan (or Mephistopheles; I can't remember which) and to Perseus. He's described as "god-like," yet he's named after a biblical king who is remembered as evil (I have to wonder if Moby Dick in this case is somehow parallel to the Bible's Jezebel). He's pictured both as a man with a self-destructive obsession and a man somehow morally set apart from the other sailors. It's fascinating to me how Melville sets it up so that he can represent both things to us simultaneously without creating a contradictory character.

I cannot condone his quest for vengeance, and so I have a hard time sympathizing with some of the symptoms of it. When he throws away his pipe, it does, indeed, set him apart from the mundane. But not, in my opinion, in a good way. It's a good example for me of how he gets a lot of things right in a moral sense. Separating oneself from worldly needs is generally seen as a good thing. But he does it for the wrong reasons, and so it becomes something destructive, rather than something life-giving.

[Audrey]

"[Ahab's] becoming so obsessed in his need to avenge himself to be a rather odd in a man whom presumably is an experienced whaler"

Yes, I thought this was odd, too. Not only that, but it was actually prophesied that he would be dismembered. And yet, he can't accept it. Because I do think his insane quest for vengeance is, in part, a misplaced sort of quest for wholeness. I'm beginning to wonder if Ahab wasn't one of those people who thinks they're somehow above the mundane dangers of their profession.

[Rosemary]

Thomas wrote: "I think Ahab throws his pipe away out of despair. Something within him has been extinguished, like the pipe he can no longer enjoy. "

Right. I read it very similarly- everything in Ahab that isn't about chasing the Whale has been quenched.

[Silver]

Audrey wrote: Yes, I thought this was odd, too. Not only that, but it was actually prophesied that he would be dismembered. And yet, he can't accept it.."

The whole line about how it was his prophesy, and yet at the same time he refuses to accept it as such gave me the idea of Ahab as being someone who believes he can defy his own fate, or tries to rebel against it.

This could also link back to his being described as "god-like" and yet "ungodly" as well as all the kingly imagery which surrounds around him. He is a man who thinks he can determine his own course, which also does relate to him possibly believing that he is above the dangers of his profession.

His inability to accept what happened to him because of his refusal to believe that in fact any sort of forces outside of himself can have bearing upon him.

[Audrey]

Those are good points. And they made me think of his line about shooting the sun if it insulted him, which supports your point. Your post made me think of the many Ancient Greek stories of people trying desperately and unsuccessfully to escape their fates. Like Acrisius putting Perseus and his mother in a trunk and throwing it into the ocean...only to be killed by a stray discus Perseus innocently throws during an athletic competition. It makes me wonder if Ahab's fate will be modeled on (or at least similar to) this idea.

[[deleted user]]

M's comment: What strikes me about it is that it shows how quickly after the intensity of Ahab's Moby speech that all the guys are pretty much back to normal.

This made me think of what someone said of war. "Days of boredom punctuated by moments of terror."

[Everyman]

M wrote: "What strikes me about it is that it shows how quickly after the intensity of Ahab's Moby speech that all the guys are pretty much back to normal. They were all very caught up emotionally by Ahab's dramatic "scene" -- I say scene because I think he deliberately staged it for maximum dramatic value. But unlike for Ahab, for the run-of-the-mill sailors, their focus just won't and can't stay on that one obsessive idea on and on"

I like that approach to it. Ahab's scene as a severe squall, followed almost immediately by normal weather again. We get those up here sometimes, coming in off the strait, lashing our windows with rain and blown spray, whistling around the house, howling through the treetops, then ten minutes later, we're back to reading quietly again.

[Everyman]

Audrey wrote: "It's fascinating to me how Melville sets it up so that he can represent both things to us simultaneously without creating a contradictory character."

Ahab certainly seems to me to be one of the most complex figures in literature.

And let's not forget Zeke's comparison of him to Richard III!

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: "Almost everything is a double picture in this novel. the sea, the inns, the harbor, the Pequod, Ahab, the Whale, QueeQueg, the color White, etc. "

Good point.

[CK]

Everyman wrote: "CK wrote: "@ Bill 137 and Everyman: Midnight Forecastle

Reading this chapter as a script had a striking impact on me. It was as though the characters were all on the same stage, but I could only ..."

Everyman: No, I don't think we really got to know any of the individuals, only to glimpse an awareness of them - something to make me look for individuals in the story rather than thinking about the crew enmass.

[[deleted user]]

Everyman wrote: "Okay, this is a first for me. In Chapter 38, Melville writes "The white whale is their demigorgon."

Demigorgon? Never heard of it. So I googled it. Nothing useful. No definition of it. So I ..."

not exactly a spoiler...but from post-Moby Dick commentary:

(view spoiler)[ by Newton Arvin.

It seemed that since we were many chapters past this chapter, that it might be interesting to see what someone else's "take" on Demigorgon was. Actually, not much more than the people here came up with...

"[Melville] could rely upon the aboriginal myth-making fancy, still strong in his own nature....as when he makes Starbuck say of the heathen crew of the Peguod that the White Whale is their 'demigorgon---

Demogorgon, as he should have said if he meant the mysterious infernal diety to whom Milton and Shelly allude, but he may well have been confusing Demogorgon with the creative Demiurgos of Platonic or Gnostic thought. In any case, there can be no doubt about Moby-Dick's deific attributes. There is something godlike in the mere crude fact of his physical magnitude, his 'majestic bulk'" (hide spoiler)]