Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
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Week 2 - through Chapter 40
CH 37 The Crown of Lombardy has a thin iron band hidden behind the gold and jewels. the iron is said to have been pounded from one of the nails used in Christ's crucifixion."Is, then, the crown to heavy that I wear? this Crown of Lombardy. Yet is it bright with many a gem; I, the wearer, see not its far flashings; but darkly feel that I wear that, that dazzling confounds. 'Tis iron - that I know - not gold. 'Tis split too - that I feel; the jagged edge galls me so, my brain seems to beat against the solid metal; aye, steel skull, mine; the sort that needs no helmet in the most brain-battering fight!"
As I read Ahab's thoughts in this chapter, it is making me think of Jesus in the garden, before his crucifixion, when it is said that he sweat drops of blood from his forehead.
Mechanics - how do I add italic and bold highlights to a post?
In Ch 36, why does the whole ship's crew go along so willingly in this mad hunt for Moby Dick? Apparently they get no salaries, only shares in any profits. This obsession of their captain's is likely to hit them in the pocketbook.
Bill wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "I thought Melville's portrait of him as a man driven, devoured from within,, was nothing short of brilliant. He's painted as a martyr to his own obsession."..."
I really enjo..."
Bill -I got stuck on this passage the first read through and am still struggling with it.
Is Ahab arguing that Starbuck is being hypocritical with his charge of blasphemy? "Hark ye yet again, - the little lower layer." look within yourself and see you are no different than me? indeed that all the men bear within them this burning need for vengeance upon something? From Ch 37: "but my one cogged circle fits into all their various wheels, and they revolve."
The whole idea of striking through the mask and prisoner reaching outside the wall speaks to me of identifying with one's true self. But then, if this is true, I don't understand how the whale is Ahab's wall. How does MB keep Ahab from his true self? Because MB took his leg? changed him into an angry man?
"Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough." Ahab may never be himself again, but it doesn't matter as long as he kills MB?
I'm sorry for rambling in this post...my thoughts are not so clear in this passage.
CK wrote: "Mechanics - how do I add italic and bold highlights to a post?"
http://www.goodreads.com/help/show/48...
http://www.goodreads.com/help/show/48...
CK wrote: "Bill wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "I thought Melville's portrait of him as a man driven, devoured from within,, was nothing short of brilliant. He's painted as a martyr to his own obsession."..."
..."
CK, Melville has muddled your (our) thoughts to make you feel as Ahab, the crazy man, feels.
Laurele wrote: "CK wrote: "Bill wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "I thought Melville's portrait of him as a man driven, devoured from within,, was nothing short of brilliant. He's painted as a martyr to his own obsessio..."Ha ha - Laurele Melville has succeeded!
M wrote: "CK wrote: "Mechanics - how do I add italic and bold highlights to a post?"http://www.goodreads.com/help/show/48..."
thank you!!
Roger wrote: "In Ch 36, why does the whole ship's crew go along so willingly in this mad hunt for Moby Dick? Apparently they get no salaries, only shares in any profits. This obsession of their captain's is li..."Good point Roger. I don't think the economic reality has sunk in. Ahab didn't tell the crew they would hunt MB to the exclusion of all other whales, but I read the same message as you - they are likely to go home empty handed if at all.
Everyman wrote: "I'm defeated by Chapter 40. I have no idea what it's doing here, why Melville sticks what is essentially a script for an act of a play in here. If anybody has made sense of this chapter or figure..."It strikes me as a bit of Dionysian revelry inserted to relieve all the Apollonian gravity surrounding Ahab, but it is jarring in effect. It reminds me of that terrible cop show on TV years ago where the characters would suddenly stop and break into a song and dance number.
CK wrote: "Is Ahab arguing that Starbuck is being hypocritical with his charge of blasphemy? "Hark ye yet again, - the little lower layer." look within yourself and see you are no different than me? ..."
I took Ahab to mean that Starbuck is being superficial. Starbuck is rationally thinking about the business of the ship, to hunt whales. Ahab tells him to look a little deeper. It's not about the money, the superficial "pasteboard mask." Ahab sees something beyond the mask, but he doesn't know what it is. But he does believe there is something there, and whatever it is -- the whale, nature, God -- it has insulted him and he hates it and he will have his revenge, because nothing is over him.
In essence, I think Ahab is a believer in something that is deeply spiritual in nature and he is trying to persuade Starbuck in the reality and truth of what he believes. He doesn't succeed in this, so he changes his argument to a more superficial one: "The crew, man, the crew! Are they not one and all with Ahab, in this matter of the whale? ...'Tis but to strike a fin; no wondrous feat for Starbuck."
I would hesitate to say that Ahab is merely "mad." I would be more comfortable calling him possessed, or as he calls himself, "demoniac."
Bill wrote: "Here's a link for all my fellow heavy metal music fans in the group. Its from the German death metal band AHAB. From their album The Call of the Wretched Sea. How dramatic is that? And every tr..."Hah!! I was lulled in by the chords and melodies, thinking this can't be heavy metal, till the growling demon emerged from his cabin!! Very dramatic indeed. When the growling continued even into the sunny harbor, I wondered about our Ishmael. It seems he lieves to tell this tail, but will he be forever haunted by it??
Pretty cool link - thanks Bill (and no I'm not a heavy metal fan)
Bill wrote: "Here's a link for all my fellow heavy metal music fans in the group. Its from the German death metal band AHAB. From their album The Call of the Wretched Sea. How dramatic is that? And every tr..."I knew this Moby Dick for some time before I ever read the book. And I don't think I'm alone in that.
CK notes CH 37: The Crown of Lombardy has a thin iron band hidden behind the gold and jewels. the iron is said to have been pounded from one of the nails used in Christ's crucifixion.
"Is, then, the crown to heavy that I wear? this Crown of Lombardy. Yet is it bright with many a gem; I, the wearer, see not its far flashings; but darkly feel that I wear that, that dazzling confounds. 'Tis iron - that I know - not gold. 'Tis split too - that I feel; the jagged edge galls me so, my brain seems to beat against the solid metal; aye, steel skull, mine; the sort that needs no helmet in the most brain-battering fight!"
As I read Ahab's thoughts in this chapter, it is making me think of Jesus in the garden, before his crucifixion, when it is said that he sweat drops of blood from his forehead.
Shakespeare in Richard II:
For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings;
How some have been deposed; some slain in war,
Some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed;
Some poison'd by their wives: some sleeping kill'd;
All murder'd: for within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of a king
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear'd and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour'd thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell king!
Cover your heads and mock not flesh and blood
With solemn reverence: throw away respect,
Tradition, form and ceremonious duty,
For you have but mistook me all this while:
I live with bread like you, feel want,
Taste grief, need friends: subjected thus,
How can you say to me, I am a king? "
I wonder. Is Ahab "king" on the Pequod? If so, does he (now) have any understanding of what Richard is saying?
If so, if Ahab had read, and understood, this passage from Richard I might the course of the novel be different? Of course, if he had, he wouldn't be Ahab.
"Is, then, the crown to heavy that I wear? this Crown of Lombardy. Yet is it bright with many a gem; I, the wearer, see not its far flashings; but darkly feel that I wear that, that dazzling confounds. 'Tis iron - that I know - not gold. 'Tis split too - that I feel; the jagged edge galls me so, my brain seems to beat against the solid metal; aye, steel skull, mine; the sort that needs no helmet in the most brain-battering fight!"
As I read Ahab's thoughts in this chapter, it is making me think of Jesus in the garden, before his crucifixion, when it is said that he sweat drops of blood from his forehead.
Shakespeare in Richard II:
For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings;
How some have been deposed; some slain in war,
Some haunted by the ghosts they have deposed;
Some poison'd by their wives: some sleeping kill'd;
All murder'd: for within the hollow crown
That rounds the mortal temples of a king
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear'd and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour'd thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell king!
Cover your heads and mock not flesh and blood
With solemn reverence: throw away respect,
Tradition, form and ceremonious duty,
For you have but mistook me all this while:
I live with bread like you, feel want,
Taste grief, need friends: subjected thus,
How can you say to me, I am a king? "
I wonder. Is Ahab "king" on the Pequod? If so, does he (now) have any understanding of what Richard is saying?
If so, if Ahab had read, and understood, this passage from Richard I might the course of the novel be different? Of course, if he had, he wouldn't be Ahab.
CK wrote: "@ Bill 137 and Everyman: Midnight Forecastle
CK wrote @140: It was as though the characters were all on the same stage, but I could only perceive them individually as the spot light came to them in turn. To have written in prose that the crew consisted of men from Malta, from Nantucket, from Sicily and Spain would have left them as inseparable as the drops of water in the churning sea. Isolated in script form, I have no choice but to consider each man individually and what part he will play in the coming scenes.
..."
Very nice. I especially liked the analogy of the spotlight, emphasizing that each man was an individual.
CK wrote @140: It was as though the characters were all on the same stage, but I could only perceive them individually as the spot light came to them in turn. To have written in prose that the crew consisted of men from Malta, from Nantucket, from Sicily and Spain would have left them as inseparable as the drops of water in the churning sea. Isolated in script form, I have no choice but to consider each man individually and what part he will play in the coming scenes.
..."
Very nice. I especially liked the analogy of the spotlight, emphasizing that each man was an individual.
The Pipe. Chapter 30. Mixed thoughts regarding Ahab. When first reading, my admiration of Ahab was increased, because here he is, a smoker (I was once a smoker), simply deciding "I'll smoke no more--" (143). I admired his will power.
But then in the next paragraph, I see that Ahab is not going to depend on his will power---"He tossed the still light pipe into the sea." (Still lit. When he makes up his mind, he makes up his mind.)
Chapter 36: "It was not a great while after the affair of the pipe...Ahab...walking, walking, walking...ever-pacing"
Yeah, it's tough to stop smoking. It wouldn't surprise me if Ahab soon becomes tense and irritable.
But then in the next paragraph, I see that Ahab is not going to depend on his will power---"He tossed the still light pipe into the sea." (Still lit. When he makes up his mind, he makes up his mind.)
Chapter 36: "It was not a great while after the affair of the pipe...Ahab...walking, walking, walking...ever-pacing"
Yeah, it's tough to stop smoking. It wouldn't surprise me if Ahab soon becomes tense and irritable.
Bill wrote: "Tristram Shandy is another book I haven't read. If the likeness could be explained to one who hasn't read it, I'm certainly interested. If not--thats ok."
Like MD, it uses a wide variety of styles or approaches or whatever you want to call them to tell its story. It's a very weird book that way.
CK wrote: "@ Bill 137 and Everyman: Midnight ForecastleReading this chapter as a script had a striking impact on me. It was as though the characters were all on the same stage, but I could only perceive ..."
That's a nice interpretation of it. But do you think there was enough speaking by any of the characters to get any real sense of who they were?
M wrote: "Powermobydick.com, a site with the entire text of the book which has handy definitions of unfamiliar words and terms in the margins [which can be turned off if not wanted], also says Melville means demogorgon. But they add a twist:."I'm not so sure they're right. I like the idea that he is referring to the Gorgons and their ability to freeze opponents with fear. That Moby Dick is half as frightening as the Gorgons, whihc is still pretty frightening.
Thomas wrote: "I would hesitate to say that Ahab is merely "mad." I would be more comfortable calling him possessed, or as he calls himself, "demoniac." "I agree. It is a single-minded obsession which overcomes all other considerations. Isn't this the same "madness" that drives, for example, top Olympic athletes to devote their every waking moment to the pursuit of a single goal? Or that drives dedicated entrepreneurs like Bill Gates to single-minded pursuit of their business goals? Certainly Ahab is unbalanced in the Aristotelian sense of the word, but is that madness?
Zeke wrote: "CK notes CH 37: The Crown of Lombardy has a thin iron band hidden behind the gold and jewels. the iron is said to have been pounded from one of the nails used in Christ's crucifixion. "Is, then,..."
The Richard III quote does indeed seem apt.
So, in another sense, does Macbeth's dagger vision, in that it seems to me to share the concept of an object which is so powerfully and fearsomely present, the difference of course being that Ahab longs to kill and Macbeth fears to kill:
Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but
A dagger of the mind, a false creation,
Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?
Regarding Chapter 40, Midnight, Forecastle
---I liked the sequence going back a ways. In chapter 35 there are hints that some on board "with not feeling sufficient 'interest' in the voyage" (173). The Pequad has reached the southern oceans and Ahab will need the men engaged.
The Quarter-Deck. According to Wikipedia, "On most ships, it was customary that only officers could use the quarterdeck, others being allowed there only when assigned for specific duties."
"Sir!" said the mate, astonished at an order seldom or never given on ship-board except in some extraordinary case.
"Send everybody aft," repeated Ahab. "Mast-heads,there! come down!"
Two things going on here: (1) There's no one on the mast-heads. No one on the look out. And I think, just maybe, no one on the look out in a spiritual sense either.
(2) Most of the men have never been on the quarter-deck and have never expected to be there in their lives. The men are intensely waiting to hear what Ahab has to say, because in calling every man jack of them to the quarter-deck, surely the man has something of great importance to impart to them.
"What do ye do when ye see a whale, men?"
"Sing out for him!"
"And what do ye next, men?"
"Lower away, and after him!"
This put me in mind of nothing so much as Country Joe and the Fish at Woodstock, uniting the rain-soaked crowds, focusing them:
"Give me an 'F'"
"Give me a 'U'"
...
"What's that spell?" The crowd is with him.
"What tune is it ye pull to, men?"
"a dead whale or a stove boat!" The crew is with him, too.
...
"Death and devils, men!" cried Ahab. (yes, I rather suppose it will be.)
"My hearties all round; it was Moby-Dick that dismasted me" (178). [and perhaps Ahab has been emotionally or spiritually dismasted.]
And Ahab calls for grog (strong spirit)for all the hands, and he pulls their spirits closer in line with his spirit.
"Commend the murderous chalices! Bestow them, ye who are now made parties to this indissoluble league."
"The deed is done! Yon ratifying sun now wait to sit upon it."
And the sun is going down. The implications of darkness.
Chapter 37: Sunset
Chapter 38: Dusk
Chapter 39: First Night-Watch
Darker and darker. An ominous feeling grows.
Macbeth: Act 2, Scene 1:
Enter BANQUO, and FLEANCE with a torch
before him.
BANQUO
1 How goes the night, boy?
FLEANCE
2 The moon is down; I have not heard the clock.
BANQUO
3 And she goes down at twelve.
Lady Macbeth:
the bell invites me.
63 Hear it not, Duncan; for it is a knell
64 That summons thee to heaven or to hell.
And the bell rings. 8 bells.
It is Midnight, Forecastle. Chapter 40.
And Melville couldn't have opened with a more perfect song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34v1hy...
8 Bells. It's midnight. "come to judgment" (187).
Back in chapter 36, The Quarter-Deck, Ahab had brought the crew round to thinking of themselves as a unit, as "the crew," as "men" (in the collective sense).
The grog may have helped seal the deal, but perhaps there was too much. "the men/the crew" have broken back into separate/progressively more antagonistic single units.
"thy race is the undeniable dark side of mankind"
"white skin, white liver!"
"A ring, a ring." {Fight. Fight. Fight. Fight.}
"In that ring Cain struck Abel."
I don't know why Melville wrote the chapter as though a scene from a play. I liked CK's take. But it would have required, it seems, a hard, disciplined man to hold the crew together. On a summer voyage of 1839, "163 floggings were recorded while Melville was on board."
---I liked the sequence going back a ways. In chapter 35 there are hints that some on board "with not feeling sufficient 'interest' in the voyage" (173). The Pequad has reached the southern oceans and Ahab will need the men engaged.
The Quarter-Deck. According to Wikipedia, "On most ships, it was customary that only officers could use the quarterdeck, others being allowed there only when assigned for specific duties."
"Sir!" said the mate, astonished at an order seldom or never given on ship-board except in some extraordinary case.
"Send everybody aft," repeated Ahab. "Mast-heads,there! come down!"
Two things going on here: (1) There's no one on the mast-heads. No one on the look out. And I think, just maybe, no one on the look out in a spiritual sense either.
(2) Most of the men have never been on the quarter-deck and have never expected to be there in their lives. The men are intensely waiting to hear what Ahab has to say, because in calling every man jack of them to the quarter-deck, surely the man has something of great importance to impart to them.
"What do ye do when ye see a whale, men?"
"Sing out for him!"
"And what do ye next, men?"
"Lower away, and after him!"
This put me in mind of nothing so much as Country Joe and the Fish at Woodstock, uniting the rain-soaked crowds, focusing them:
"Give me an 'F'"
"Give me a 'U'"
...
"What's that spell?" The crowd is with him.
"What tune is it ye pull to, men?"
"a dead whale or a stove boat!" The crew is with him, too.
...
"Death and devils, men!" cried Ahab. (yes, I rather suppose it will be.)
"My hearties all round; it was Moby-Dick that dismasted me" (178). [and perhaps Ahab has been emotionally or spiritually dismasted.]
And Ahab calls for grog (strong spirit)for all the hands, and he pulls their spirits closer in line with his spirit.
"Commend the murderous chalices! Bestow them, ye who are now made parties to this indissoluble league."
"The deed is done! Yon ratifying sun now wait to sit upon it."
And the sun is going down. The implications of darkness.
Chapter 37: Sunset
Chapter 38: Dusk
Chapter 39: First Night-Watch
Darker and darker. An ominous feeling grows.
Macbeth: Act 2, Scene 1:
Enter BANQUO, and FLEANCE with a torch
before him.
BANQUO
1 How goes the night, boy?
FLEANCE
2 The moon is down; I have not heard the clock.
BANQUO
3 And she goes down at twelve.
Lady Macbeth:
the bell invites me.
63 Hear it not, Duncan; for it is a knell
64 That summons thee to heaven or to hell.
And the bell rings. 8 bells.
It is Midnight, Forecastle. Chapter 40.
And Melville couldn't have opened with a more perfect song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34v1hy...
8 Bells. It's midnight. "come to judgment" (187).
Back in chapter 36, The Quarter-Deck, Ahab had brought the crew round to thinking of themselves as a unit, as "the crew," as "men" (in the collective sense).
The grog may have helped seal the deal, but perhaps there was too much. "the men/the crew" have broken back into separate/progressively more antagonistic single units.
"thy race is the undeniable dark side of mankind"
"white skin, white liver!"
"A ring, a ring." {Fight. Fight. Fight. Fight.}
"In that ring Cain struck Abel."
I don't know why Melville wrote the chapter as though a scene from a play. I liked CK's take. But it would have required, it seems, a hard, disciplined man to hold the crew together. On a summer voyage of 1839, "163 floggings were recorded while Melville was on board."
Bill wrote: "Here's a link for all my fellow heavy metal music fans in the group. Its from the German death metal band AHAB. From their album The Call of the Wretched Sea. How dramatic is that? And every tr..."
I'm not even a heavy metal music fan and I enjoyed listening!
I'm not even a heavy metal music fan and I enjoyed listening!
Everyman wrote: "Macbeth...."
LOL. Just saw this post. I guess as was thinking Macbeth about the same time as you were.
LOL. Just saw this post. I guess as was thinking Macbeth about the same time as you were.
Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "I would hesitate to say that Ahab is merely "mad." I would be more comfortable calling him possessed, or as he calls himself, "demoniac." "I agree. It is a single-minded obsession which overcomes all other considerations. Isn't this the same "madness" that drives, for example, top Olympic athletes to devote their every waking moment to the pursuit of a single goal? Or that drives dedicated entrepreneurs like Bill Gates to single-minded pursuit of their business goals? Certainly Ahab is unbalanced in the Aristotelian sense of the word, but is that madness? "
That depends on whether you think his obsession is a sane one to have. We don't call Olympians and Bill Gates mad because their goals are accepted by society. Passionate, say, stamp collectors are seen as sane but a little odd, because their goals are less commonly admired. And then there's Ahab . . .
Bill wrote: "And anyone else's thoughts as well--particularly this part:"All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event—in the living act, the undoubted deed—there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there's naught beyond. But 'tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations. But not my master, man, is even that fair play. Who's over me? Truth hath no confines." "
I was waiting for someone else to take a crack at this, but no one has done! This passage sent chills down my spine. I grabbed my husband when I got to it and made him listen to it.
I have religious friends to whom every little event- a traffic light turning green at just the right time, or a sunny day for their vacation, or their cold getting better after a prayer- every little event is a Sign or Work of God. God is the "unknown but still reasoning thing" that "puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the [pasteboard] mask."
Even though I'm religious, I just can't think that way, because with just the slightest bit of perversion, this is what it can turn into.
Starbuck is right- it's crazy to impute all of this "inscrutable malice" to a whale, a part of nature. But in Melville's world where many people thought (and still think!) about God as I have outlined above, it was (and still is) a narrow leap to make. Honestly, the fact that I (and many others) find that leap so illogical- and immediately start arguing against it- "Ahab, you're right- there is naught behind the wall"- is the argument that most compels me towards atheism.
What's most interesting to me in this passage, though, is clearly not what is most interesting to Ahab! Although he intuits the presence of an inscrutable malicious Thing, in the end "That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him."
It doesn't matter whether there is a Thing beyond the wall of the whale or whether the whale IS the wall and there is naught beyond- he will "wreak his hate." oooohhh, it gives me the shivers.
I love this passage so much.
I agree; it's astounding. I especially love this glorious sentence:
"Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me."
Wow, Ahab!
"Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me."
Wow, Ahab!
Adelle wrote: "Regarding Chapter 40, Midnight, Forecastle---I liked the sequence going back a ways. In chapter 35 there are hints that some on board "with not feeling sufficient 'interest' in the voyage" (1..."
Fantastic analysis! I love it!!
Another, more traditional rendition of Spanish Ladies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzPy6A...
The strong beat was to give the cadence for the men working together either on turning the windlass pulling up the anchor or, when hauling on the lines that pulled up the sails -- on the beat, the men would all haul on the line together, then during the pause they would reset their hands up the rope, than give another pull on the beat. For these jobs, you need everybody pulling (on ropes) or pushing (on the windlass or capstan) together, and the sea shanties not only kept spirits up with music, but provided that steady beat.
Usually the bosun sang the solo and the sailors together cam in on the choruses. Some of the shanties could go on for many, many verses if they were hauling up a deep anchor or setting many sails.
I love shanties.
Here are a couple of other traditional shanties. Since they were sung on male-only ships by "girl in every port" sailors who were away from their homes for years at a time, they could sometimes be a bit, uh, bawdy. These are some of the more benign.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvBHdw...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPIcwF...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeePab...
M wrote: "I agree; it's astounding. I especially love this glorious sentence:"Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me."
Wow, Ahab!"
Absolutely. The whole passage, as Rosemary points out (though I don't see it, as she does, as an argument for atheism) is an extraordinary passage.
He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him.
This, it seems to me, is the raw heart of Ahab. Hate and vengeance raised to a level seldom seen in "normal" humans.
M wrote: "I agree; it's astounding. I especially love this glorious sentence:"Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me."
Wow, Ahab!"
That brings up echoes of a Shakespeare passage, but I can't bring up the precise passage now. Does it echo that way to anybody else?
Everyman wrote: "M wrote: "I agree; it's astounding. I especially love this glorious sentence:"Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me."
Wow, Ahab!"
That brings up echoes of a Sha..."
From The Old Man and the Sea:
Then he was sorry for the great fish that had nothing to eat and his determination to kill him never relaxed in his sorrow for him. . . . There is no one worthy of eating him from the manner of his behavior and his great dignity. I do not understand these things, he thought. But it is good that we do not have to try to kill the sun or the moon or the stars. It is enough to live on the sea and kill our true brothers.
I just finished reading the Cetology and I know a lot of people thought it was tedious, perhaps I am just a dark, and well I do have a long standing interest in animals, so I acutally fond reading it to be interesting. It was interesting and a bit amusing at points reading about the scientific information which existed at that point in time about whales. Particularly in the debate about weather or not the whale is a fish, for reading this book I was starting to wonder when it was that people did begin to realize whales were in fact mammals. One of the things I found to be curious is how Ishmael often used human personification in describing the whales, referring to them as being "gentleman" "lads" "fellows" and other words that are also words used in describing people in how he talks about thier characters, personalities and such.
This seems an unusual way for a person to describe something in which he is going to hunt, as usually people try to desensitize themselves from something they are going to kill.
Perhaps in this way he is showing the admiration and respect in which the men had for the whales and an acknowledgement of thier "worthiness" as opponents.
Roger wrote: "There is no one worthy of eating him from the manner of his behavior and his great dignity. I do not understand these things, he thought. But it is good that we do not have to try to kill the sun or the moon or the stars. It is enough to live on the sea and kill our true brothers. ""
Nice. Ahab could learn something from this old man. (As Melville could from Hemingway's lean prose. But then he wouldn't be Melville, I suppose.)
Silver wrote: "One of the things I found to be curious is how Ishmael often used human personification in describing the whales, referring to them as being "gentleman" "lads" "fellows" and other words that are also words used in describing people in how he talks about thier characters, personalities and such.This seems an unusual way for a person to describe something in which he is going to hunt, as usually people try to desensitize themselves from something they are going to kill.
Perhaps in this way he is showing the admiration and respect in which the men had for the whales and an acknowledgement of thier "worthiness" as opponents. "
I think perhaps that's a reflection of the thinking of earlier times, when most people still lived on farms or were only a generation or two removed from those who did, and people killed the animals they had raised by hand, so they had a much closer connection with the animals they killed, many of whom had names.
Melville may also have been familiar with the Native American approach to the land, where the hunter will apologize to the deer, or will explain to a tree why he needs to cut it down.
Everyman wrote: Melville may also have been familiar with the Native American approach to the land, where the hunter will apologize to the deer, or will explain to a tree why he needs to cut it down. ..."Yes that is a good point considering how much Melville does reference primitive tribes within this book and shows an understanding of them to some degree and an interest in "heathenism" it may be a reflection of the way in which many primitive cultures do have great reverence for the life in which they are about to take, and acknowledge how the animal is sacrificed so they themselves can live.
Tax TimeI'm an accountant and the crunch is on. I may have to lurk this week. I hope you won't think I'm lazy as Joe.
Zeke wrote: "CK notes CH 37: The Crown of Lombardy has a thin iron band hidden behind the gold and jewels. the iron is said to have been pounded from one of the nails used in Christ's crucifixion. "Is, then,..."
Zeke: I love this!!
That rounds the mortal temples of a king
Keeps Death his court and there the antic sits,
Scoffing his state and grinning at his pomp,
Allowing him a breath, a little scene,
To monarchize, be fear'd and kill with looks,
Infusing him with self and vain conceit,
As if this flesh which walls about our life,
Were brass impregnable, and humour'd thus
Comes at the last and with a little pin
Bores through his castle wall, and farewell king!
Cover your heads and mock not flesh and blood
fits Ahab very well I think
The more I think about it, the less I think Ahab and Richard II are similar. Perhaps we can revisit this in the final discussions after we have finished the book.
Immensely enjoyed listening to the shanties! (a thank you), and I re-read the "Specksynder" and "Quarter-deck" chapters and Rosemary's and Bill's remarks. ! I can tell they're important chapters. But I find them so difficult. The chapters make my head hurt.
As my thoughts will turn tomorrow to the next set of chapters...today:
Ahab. Yes, I know, there are all these intimations that there are bad outcomes ahead for Ahab and the crew of the Pequod, but I've mostly found him, oh, up to that "Quarter-deck" chapter, most attractive.
He has such WILL. He's so self-possessed. He doesn't impose rules 'round the captain's dining table, but his fellow diners---because Ahab is there---have instituted their own rules out of deference to him. Ishmael had spoken of how a compass could be “off” due to the “errors resulting from what is called the ‘local attraction’ of all binnacle magnets” (chapter 35). There is something so powerful about Ahab. “the Leyden jar of his own magnetic life” (chapter 37). I can understand the men turning his way. Being drawn his way. Almost against their wills. But, of course, they haven’t the will that Ahab has. And Elijah, you’ll remember, basically said that Captain Ahab had more soul than most men. “I know many chaps that hav’n’t got any [souls]….. He’s got enough, though, to make up for all deficiencies of that sort in other chaps” (chapter 19).
I wonder…there was that line of Pip’s: “—that anaconda of an old man swore ‘em to hunt him [Moby Dick]” (chapter 40). In some manner, I can think of Ahab as having, like an anaconda, rather swallowed the crews weaker souls and incorporated them/made them part of himself.
I’m reading Faust, and there was the scene in which Faust had already sold his soul to …if not the devil, then the devil’s sub-sub subordinate, Mephistopheles, and was now looking for results. Mephistopheles commands the witch, “draw thy circle, speak thine adjuration”). And she draws a circle and places mysterious articles. I don’t want to think of Ahab as an evil man…’though ‘tis true he’s breaking faith with those in Nantucket who’ve placed their financial lives in his hands. But still, when I read the scene in Faust it made me think to the scene in chapter 36: “my hearties all round,” “And this is what ye have shipped for men!” and “Ahab did not hear [Starbucks] foreboding invocation,” “Cross your lances [articles] before me,” and “God hunt us all, if we do not hunt Moby-Dick to his death!” Sigh. Oh, the calling down of curses on oneself "if..."
MIGHT there be a little evil in Ahab? He and Mephistopheles both are marked with the lame leg. [just musing here] Does the lame leg help us to visually see [“All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event….there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features…”(ch 36) … to help us see that Ahab is unbalanced? Like, we can see the physicality…but there’s a deeper, more meaningful thing in Ahab? The obsession which unbalances him? [just musing]
Ahab's worked his way up to captain. He's (seemingly...to chapter 35) overcome/adapted to the loss of his leg. Peleg and Bildad seem to think highly of him. He held enough attraction to marry a young wife.
{Aside: at first, I had thought that the fact that he had a young wife and now had lost his leg and perhaps faced ... complications, shall we say... had contributed towards his anger at the whale. I've since discarded that theory. Then I re-read the posts of Rosemary and Bill. And ponder.}
He managed to grab that crew and weld them to his will. (Ok, Bill, maybe not for the whole voyage.)
And Ishmael came to love him, so it follows for me that there is something in Ahab. Something, I think of that "choice hidden handful of the Divine Inert" (161). Ishmael, at the end of chapter 33 ("But Ahab [first name only] [Personally, I hear the love in that] , my Captain [not “the” captain; “my” Captain][Ishmael is not serving under Ahab by compulsion, but by choice]…
“But Ahab, my Captain, still moves before me……Oh, Ahab! [in a manly-man bond, that Melville, it seems, holds higher than the man-woman bond; the absolute pain in that almost intimate designation] what shall be grand in thee [and Ishmael, I think, IS holding there to be grandness in Ahab], it must needs be plucked at from the skies, and dived for in the deep, and featured in the unbodied air!”
Well, I was going to wander about on the 3 mates, too, but it appears Ahab stole me away from them to his own exclusive purpose. Lol.
As my thoughts will turn tomorrow to the next set of chapters...today:
Ahab. Yes, I know, there are all these intimations that there are bad outcomes ahead for Ahab and the crew of the Pequod, but I've mostly found him, oh, up to that "Quarter-deck" chapter, most attractive.
He has such WILL. He's so self-possessed. He doesn't impose rules 'round the captain's dining table, but his fellow diners---because Ahab is there---have instituted their own rules out of deference to him. Ishmael had spoken of how a compass could be “off” due to the “errors resulting from what is called the ‘local attraction’ of all binnacle magnets” (chapter 35). There is something so powerful about Ahab. “the Leyden jar of his own magnetic life” (chapter 37). I can understand the men turning his way. Being drawn his way. Almost against their wills. But, of course, they haven’t the will that Ahab has. And Elijah, you’ll remember, basically said that Captain Ahab had more soul than most men. “I know many chaps that hav’n’t got any [souls]….. He’s got enough, though, to make up for all deficiencies of that sort in other chaps” (chapter 19).
I wonder…there was that line of Pip’s: “—that anaconda of an old man swore ‘em to hunt him [Moby Dick]” (chapter 40). In some manner, I can think of Ahab as having, like an anaconda, rather swallowed the crews weaker souls and incorporated them/made them part of himself.
I’m reading Faust, and there was the scene in which Faust had already sold his soul to …if not the devil, then the devil’s sub-sub subordinate, Mephistopheles, and was now looking for results. Mephistopheles commands the witch, “draw thy circle, speak thine adjuration”). And she draws a circle and places mysterious articles. I don’t want to think of Ahab as an evil man…’though ‘tis true he’s breaking faith with those in Nantucket who’ve placed their financial lives in his hands. But still, when I read the scene in Faust it made me think to the scene in chapter 36: “my hearties all round,” “And this is what ye have shipped for men!” and “Ahab did not hear [Starbucks] foreboding invocation,” “Cross your lances [articles] before me,” and “God hunt us all, if we do not hunt Moby-Dick to his death!” Sigh. Oh, the calling down of curses on oneself "if..."
MIGHT there be a little evil in Ahab? He and Mephistopheles both are marked with the lame leg. [just musing here] Does the lame leg help us to visually see [“All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event….there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features…”(ch 36) … to help us see that Ahab is unbalanced? Like, we can see the physicality…but there’s a deeper, more meaningful thing in Ahab? The obsession which unbalances him? [just musing]
Ahab's worked his way up to captain. He's (seemingly...to chapter 35) overcome/adapted to the loss of his leg. Peleg and Bildad seem to think highly of him. He held enough attraction to marry a young wife.
{Aside: at first, I had thought that the fact that he had a young wife and now had lost his leg and perhaps faced ... complications, shall we say... had contributed towards his anger at the whale. I've since discarded that theory. Then I re-read the posts of Rosemary and Bill. And ponder.}
He managed to grab that crew and weld them to his will. (Ok, Bill, maybe not for the whole voyage.)
And Ishmael came to love him, so it follows for me that there is something in Ahab. Something, I think of that "choice hidden handful of the Divine Inert" (161). Ishmael, at the end of chapter 33 ("But Ahab [first name only] [Personally, I hear the love in that] , my Captain [not “the” captain; “my” Captain][Ishmael is not serving under Ahab by compulsion, but by choice]…
“But Ahab, my Captain, still moves before me……Oh, Ahab! [in a manly-man bond, that Melville, it seems, holds higher than the man-woman bond; the absolute pain in that almost intimate designation] what shall be grand in thee [and Ishmael, I think, IS holding there to be grandness in Ahab], it must needs be plucked at from the skies, and dived for in the deep, and featured in the unbodied air!”
Well, I was going to wander about on the 3 mates, too, but it appears Ahab stole me away from them to his own exclusive purpose. Lol.
CK wrote: "Tax TimeI'm an accountant and the crunch is on. I may have to lurk this week. I hope you won't think I'm lazy as Joe."
Fully understood. See you on the 16th!
Zeke wrote: "The more I think about it, the less I think Ahab and Richard II are similar. Perhaps we can revisit this in the final discussions after we have finished the book."So, you're going to make me go back and re-read R3 (for the umpnteenth time), eh? Well, there are worse ways to spend one's time!
Bill wrote: "Adelle wrote: "{Aside: ..."
Thank you for the kind words, Bill. Rather a nice group effort. One reads the various postings and it's like some sort of quickening agent. One thinks of other things...and other things.
Also, lol, you just KNOW I can't go on at such length in my F2F group.
I don't believe that I had heard of maltheists before. (There you are, a-teaching me new words.) At this point, I can't quite see Ahab in that light. But willing to keep an open mind.
Should read a few chapters this evening.
Thank you for the kind words, Bill. Rather a nice group effort. One reads the various postings and it's like some sort of quickening agent. One thinks of other things...and other things.
Also, lol, you just KNOW I can't go on at such length in my F2F group.
I don't believe that I had heard of maltheists before. (There you are, a-teaching me new words.) At this point, I can't quite see Ahab in that light. But willing to keep an open mind.
Should read a few chapters this evening.
I'm a little behind in my post-reading, and I'd like to go back to the discussion regarding Ahab's tossing his pipe into the ocean. I thought this passage was very revealing of Ahab's state of mind. It is very tempting to look at this from the modern point of view that it is admirable to quit smoking, but I don't think that's what Melville is getting at. In the 19th century, the idea that one SHOULD quit smoking was not at all mainstream. I think Melville was looking at Ahab's pipe-smoking habit as something more akin to having a glass of good wine or crawling into a warm bed on a cold day. Before he throws the pipe overboard, he delivers a short soliloquy to it, including these lines:"How now...this smoking no longer soothes. Oh my pipe! hard must it go with me if thy charm be gone!"
To me, this symbolizes Ahab's ability to savor life, and it is the mundane pleasures of life that he rejects when he throws it overboard. I'm sure there are many possible readings of this passage, but that's what stood out about it to me.
Audrey wrote it is very tempting to look at this from the modern point of view that it is admirable to stop smoking, but I don't think that' what Melville is getting at. In the 19th century, the idea that one SHOULD stop smoking was not at all mainstream.
Actually, my point wasn't that it was admirable that he stopped smoking or that I thought it was something he "should"do. But as I former smoker, I realize the willpower it takes to quit and I truly admired his willpower. Even in the 19th century, I would expect smoking to be quite addictive. Except...lol...he didn't totally use willpower...like I had thought he was going to....he threw his pipe away...almost it seemed to make sure that he didn't have a choice about it anymore.
You make an interesting point about WHY he might have decided to toss the pipe. Ishmael and Queegqueg shared a pipe and relaxed. And you're right that it was for them a social pleasure. A shared pleasure. Ahab seems to smoke alone...eat alone ...
And now his pipe doesn't even bring him any pleasure...no longer soothes.
Actually, my point wasn't that it was admirable that he stopped smoking or that I thought it was something he "should"do. But as I former smoker, I realize the willpower it takes to quit and I truly admired his willpower. Even in the 19th century, I would expect smoking to be quite addictive. Except...lol...he didn't totally use willpower...like I had thought he was going to....he threw his pipe away...almost it seemed to make sure that he didn't have a choice about it anymore.
You make an interesting point about WHY he might have decided to toss the pipe. Ishmael and Queegqueg shared a pipe and relaxed. And you're right that it was for them a social pleasure. A shared pleasure. Ahab seems to smoke alone...eat alone ...
And now his pipe doesn't even bring him any pleasure...no longer soothes.
Audrey wrote: "I'm a little behind in my post-reading, and I'd like to go back to the discussion regarding Ahab's tossing his pipe into the ocean. I thought this passage was very revealing of Ahab's state of min..."Ahab's throwing his pipe away can be seen against the other notable pipe smoker -- happy-go-lucky Stubb, who is never without his pipe. I think Ahab throws his pipe away out of despair. Something within him has been extinguished, like the pipe he can no longer enjoy.
. Thomas wrote..."
Yes! I like how there could be word play involved...in that like in the pipe, something had been extinguished in Ahab, too.
Also, from my noting that he just threw it away...without considering what the consequences might be...just that HE had decided to stop. Perhaps there is in Ahab a belief in himself so strong...that he doesn't really put thought into what the consequences of his actions might be. Or so compelling is his need to follow through on what he has decided that he doesn't even care what the consequences are. Surely spending the pequad's time at sea in pursuit -- and even should he actually find Moby Dick--- will have negative consequences for the town, the shareholders, Ahab's wife and son, and even Ahab himself.
Mmmm. It occurs to me...perhaps something of life has been extinguished...There are all those short remarks throughout about "life". . .
As as regards Ahab himself, (sorry....from memory as book not handy), there was that dream of Stubb's in which he had described the ivory leg of Ahab's as not really being or having life in it.
Perhaps as the conventional/everyday aspects of Ahab's life are lost or given up, the inner force of his life takes those life force energies for itself/swallows them, if you will.
Yes! I like how there could be word play involved...in that like in the pipe, something had been extinguished in Ahab, too.
Also, from my noting that he just threw it away...without considering what the consequences might be...just that HE had decided to stop. Perhaps there is in Ahab a belief in himself so strong...that he doesn't really put thought into what the consequences of his actions might be. Or so compelling is his need to follow through on what he has decided that he doesn't even care what the consequences are. Surely spending the pequad's time at sea in pursuit -- and even should he actually find Moby Dick--- will have negative consequences for the town, the shareholders, Ahab's wife and son, and even Ahab himself.
Mmmm. It occurs to me...perhaps something of life has been extinguished...There are all those short remarks throughout about "life". . .
As as regards Ahab himself, (sorry....from memory as book not handy), there was that dream of Stubb's in which he had described the ivory leg of Ahab's as not really being or having life in it.
Perhaps as the conventional/everyday aspects of Ahab's life are lost or given up, the inner force of his life takes those life force energies for itself/swallows them, if you will.
Zeke wrote: "I have no doubt that this group will manage the sensitivities raised by the 19th century practice of whaling. I think it is important to realize that the whaling industry is exactly analogous to th..."You make a good point, Zeke. The only difference I see is that the whales were (and are)living, breathing creatures whereas the petroleum doesn't come from anything living, although both have/had an environmental impact. However, your point is the comparison of the product (whale oil/petroleum) being equal as far as society's need for it and that clarifies it for our 21st century lives where a whale is a beautiful creature we see at Sea World. :)
Audrey wrote: ""How now...this smoking no longer soothes. Oh my pipe! hard must it go with me if thy charm be gone!"To me, this symbolizes Ahab's ability to savor life, and it is the mundane pleasures of life that he rejects when he throws it overboard. I'm sure there are many possible readings of this passage, but that's what stood out about it to me.
."
That's certainly a very valid interpretation. Though I'm not sure I would use the term "rejects" the pleasures of life so much as recognizing that those are no longer sufficient for him, that he has a greater goal than transitory pleasure to live for, and laying them aside. But that may be a distinction without a difference.
Reading this chapter as a script had a striking impact on me. It was as though the characters were all on the same stage, but I could only perceive them individually as the spot light came to them in turn. To have written in prose that the crew consisted of men from Malta, from Nantucket, from Sicily and Spain would have left them as inseparable as the drops of water in the churning sea. Isolated in script form, I have no choice but to consider each man individually and what part he will play in the coming scenes.