Apr/May Group Read (Scottish Monarchy) - Queen Hereafter:A Novel of Margaret of Scotland by Susan Fraser King

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

I'm having some issues with it too, Lisa and I'm not sure why. I finally, after about 110 pages, have gotten interested in it and am enjoying it now. I have to return it to the library today and will finish it as soon as it becomes available for me to get out again. I'm not sure what it is... I just had a lot of trouble connecting with any of the characters or caring about what was going on. It seems to be written well... no obvious flaws or anything. Just nothing that really captured me at all.

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

Unfortunately, that seems to be the standing impression, Jen.

[Shirley]

I'm about 3/4 of the way thru the book. I'm really liking it. I have read some of the reviews and I can see some of the points made but I still like the book. Maybe I'm not critical enough??? I just know it takes me away from reality. I'm wondering how I'll feel when I am finished.

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

It's funny because since my last post (and about 50 pages), I'm finally enjoying it. I have no clue what changed for me but all of a sudden, I'm not having to 'force' myself to pick it up. And of course, I returned it to the library yesterday unfinished. I hope I get it back soon as there's a bit of a wait list. It's neat to see the differences between the Scotish court and the other courts that I've read about.

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

I finally started this one yesterday. (I know, I know). I am only 26 pages in, but I am actually enjoying it so far. Margaret is a bit pious, Christina is a whiner, and their mother seems very bitter, but I like flawed characters. We'll see how it goes as I get into it.

[Shirley]

I have about 75 pages left of QH and Margaret is only pregnant with her 3rd child, out of 8. I'm wondering how the rest of the book will deal with everything in oly 75 pages.
Lyn, you've hit the nail on the head when you describe the 3 characters, Margaret, Christina and Mommy Dearest.

[Shirley]

I have finished Queen Hereafter and as an historical fiction piece of writing, I truly enjoyed this book. Historical fiction by definition is "a literary work or category whose content is produced by the imagination and based or concerned with events in history." In reading historical fiction (HF), you are aware from the beginning that the author has licence to add a "story" to the actual facts, that the author can change dates, occurances and just about anything else he/she decides.
My favourite character would have to be Margaret since this is who I set out to read about. While some of her actions were difficult to understand (her fasting, denial of comforts, penance, her acts of extreme goodness), it need be remembered that she was sainted for those same good actions. This is reality according to non-fiction writings and records. I think the author developed Margaret's character well enough. More detail of her piety may have been too much to read. Again, I remind myself this is HF, wanting more reality would necessitate a non-fiction for me.
The weakest character for me was Edgar. True, there wasn't much written about him. Maybe a little bit more of a story line for him would have been nice to see. Realizing he is a young boy and what he must have coped with, facing fears as he went off to battle the enemy, could have added more dimension to his character. Also, I didn't have a great feeling for Eva, maybe because she was ficticious and in some ways not necessary.
I enjoyed the fact that Margaret and Malcom were so different from each other but were still able to find love in their relationship. The romantic in me would like to have read more on them as a couple, ficticious or not.
I did not care for Christina or her mother. Christina was a definate "whiner." She could not have been a very happy person, no doubt finding it extremely difficult to live her life out as a nun. That she was harsh with Margaret's daughter does not surprise me. Agatha, I think, was a poor soul who either never learned how, or was too afraid, to live. I know it was a different time and a whole other world but not showing emotional and physical love to your children is not something most of us could imagine.
Having read QH, I could see myself reading more about Margaret and possibly the relationship between her and Malcom. When I do read about an historical character, I do check out facts, either on the internet or NF books. Even though I enjoy reading HF, I still like to know what's real or not.
Characters I would like to read more about would include Malcom, MacBeth, Gruagh and Brother Tor. Bishop Thurgot's "Life of Saint Margaret" might be interesting as a NF read.
Again, I enjoyed QH. I believe the author accomplished what she set out to write - a literary work produced by the imagination based on or concerned with events in history. I found Susan Fraser King's book entertaining and, as a HF, most satisfying.

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

Shirley wrote: "I have finished Queen Hereafter and as an historical fiction piece of writing, I truly enjoyed this book. Historical fiction by definition is "a literary work or category whose content is produced ..."

This is a great review! One of the things that tends to drive me crazy is the emphasis that is put on HF to be completely accurate. That just can't be the case. We haven't got any way of really knowing what the characters did from day to day, what they thought, how they felt. But I certainly like speculating and a good HF author is able to help me do that. That being said, I don't want to read an HF where well-known historical facts are completely changed but the author does need to be free to express themselves.

For example (and I apologize if it's a poor example) we know that Henry VIII had six wives and we know how there marriages turned out. Don't change that. Stick with the facts there (unless you're writing alternative history and then we can't complain).What we don't know is how Henry really felt about each one or about how they felt about him. So, feel free to go a bit crazy with that. Run with his thoughts, with his feelings, his actions (with a bit of honesty if you can)... create him for me. Sure, these people all existed but we're reading historical fiction. After 500 plus years, they have become more characters in a story to us than real people who once walked the world. In non-fiction, we are able to learn of the legacies that these men and women left behind and speculate on the times and lives that they lived. And I certainly love doing that, too. But at the end of the day, it's all speculation, isn't it? And that's why I love historical fiction so much. It gives me the chance to speculate in a direction that I might not have otherwise gone, whether I agree with it or not.

Rant over... sorry about that :)

And, getting back on topic, I've got QH back now and will start reading it again more, hopefully this evening. I'm interested from everyone's reviews to see how this turns out.

By the way, Lyn, those are great discussion questions! Thanks for posting them and I'll answer with my views as soon as I finish the novel.

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

Jennifer and Shirley, great comments. I know the difference between HF and straight history is always controversial. I, for one, am glad that we read both in this group. I love love reading history which details the lives of people from the past that intrigue me. On the other hand, I also love speculating what the back stories might have been.

[Shirley]

Definately, I agree. I really wanted to know how Margaret and Malcom were together. I had all kinds of thoughts of my own but we will never really know...that's what's fun with HF. Maybe that's where time travel comes in. lol. or what was it Jennifer said? alternative history...never heard of that but I think it's kind of funny.

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

Alternative history is a new genre, or at least relatively new, where the author takes history and changes it in some significant way, to make the story have a different outcome. Some examples are

1945 by Robert Conroy , the His Majesty's Dragon series by Naomi Novik, and Untold Story by Monica Ali

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

I've never read an alternative history novel but I think it would be or could be neat. Have you ever read any, Lyn?

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

Actually, I have several, but haven't read any. I have the whole Naomi Nocik series which take place during the Napoleonic War, but with dragons and such. Both my sister and Joe say the series is great. And I have 1945, which explores what would happen if WWII had a different outcome on the Pacific Front. I believe all of Conroy's books are like that, but they, also, are highly rated.

I have enough to read with actual history and HGF, so I haven't gotten to any AH yet.

[Shirley]

Just checked out the books you've mentioned, Lyn. They sound interesting, especially 1945. I've never read anything like these before.

[Robin]

The concept of alternate history interests me but I haven't really found any novels on specific topics which interest me. For example, I wouldn't mind reading one about Marc Antony and Cleopatra defeating Octavian instead of vice versa but I don't know of any.

[Shirley]

Sorry, I am new to Goodreads...just wondering if the discussion of Queen Hereafter is over. Is there any conclusion to all of the discussion? How does it all end?

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

The conversations don't ever officially end as a lot of times people will read the books after the actual time (Lyn and I seem to be the only ones reading it now). The conversations seem to drop off for a bit and then occasionally pick back up.

Speaking of reviving this thread...

Robin, that would be a great topic for a novel. There are so many possibilities with alternate history!

This is sort of neat. A few titles on there that I definitely recognize... I'm not sure that I would classify them all as AH but I can see why they're on the list, even though I haven't read them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category...

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

I've got about 50 pages left of QH and I'm happy to say, I'm enjoying the 2nd half of the book much more than the first. I'm actually curious enough now to keep going and want to know more. It was really hard for me to get into. I don't know if it was because I have other books I want to be reading or because I don't know anything about the time and have gotten the characters mixed up a number of times. The writing is good, the characters are ok, reading about the Scottish castles is fun. I think this is going to be a 3 star for me.

Is anyone else still reading it, besides Lyn & I?

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

Probably not, lol. Some mods we are, always bringing up the rear, lol.

BTW - great list, as always, Jennifer. I am going to start calling you lady of the lists.

Shirley - Jen is right, usually not a lot happens except the discussion tends to peter out. I was thinking, though that maybe we could conclude by giving the book a group score. What do you all think?

[Shirley]

I think that might be a good idea. I'd like to know what the group as a whole thinks of the book...score-wise, as you put it.
(Sorry, I'm a little slow :P
what does BTW mean?)

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

Shirley - BTW means "by the way" in texting speak.

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

Ah Mom... you always forget that one! :P

Group score sounds good to me. I'm off to finish it now but I'm thinking 3 stars for me.

At least we're reading this one, Lyn!

Hehe... thanks! I do love lists. Pete always says that I should make a job out of it. If only I could!

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

YA, I would like to make a job out of reading all day, but it would have to be reading things I want to. Don't think that there is such a thing. :)

[Shirley]

Lol, I know, as soon as I read your explanation, Lyn, I thought, man, Jen just told me that. BTW, I'll be starting TRQ in the next day or two. LOL.

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

I think you will love it.

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

My review of Queen Hereafter:

This book did for me what I feel historical fiction should do. It introduced me to a slew of historical personages that I previously knew nothing about and it instilled in me a desire to learn more about them - about their lives, who they were, what they did. I want to know more about the saintly Queen Margaret, who seemed to be so good a person that it is almost an impossibility. I want to know more about the beauty and the beast love story that was Margaret's and Duncan's. I want to know more about Queen Grudah, wife of MacBeth and about life in Scotland in medieval times, much different than the royal courts of England and France that I am more familiar with.

Queen Hereafter was well-written in many aspects but there was something about it that just didn't hold my interest as much as I would have liked. It didn't have me up reading late into the night. It didn't captivate me like I wanted it to.

Eva, a female bard, was a character added into the novel that didn't actually exist. I understand, from the author's note at the end, that Eva was written in to give another view of the times. Susan Fraser King had stated that while Queen Margaret had a fascinating life, it would be tiresome to read solely about a woman who was so pious, continually praying and giving birth to children. I'm not sure I agree. While I did find it interesting to see Eva's point of view, I don't see how an interesting novel would be impossible to write solely about Margaret given that she is the most well-documented medieval queen in history. Her friend and confessor, Brother Tor, keep a detailed account of her life, something that survived all this time. It's very rare to have such accounts still in existence, if ever written in the first place.

I would recommend this book as an introduction but will be searching for another account of Margaret and Duncan's lives. I will probably also read Lady MacBeth by the same author but expect it to be much the same. A good book about Grudah and MacBeth but with a little something missing.

Interesting story from the Author's Note:
Margaret's coffin was removed during renovations from its original tomb in the church at Dunfermline to be placed in the new apse. The workers carrying the coffin found it so heavy that they set it down and could not budge it again - then they realized that next to them was the tomb of Malcolm Canmore.
Only when Malcolm's coffin was moved to the new apse first could the queen's coffin then be easily lifted and installed in its new position. Legend says that the queen's spirit, out of love and respect for her husband, prevented her coffin from preceding his into the new apse.
Tiny, beautiful lights, it is claimed, sometimes float around her tomb in Dunfermline, proving that she still watches over Scotland. To this day, her presence is recalled in various places - her simple, serene chapel in Edinburgh Castle; St. Margaret's Loch and St. Margaret's Well, the water crossing she founded at Queensferry in Fife, the boulder where she sat to rest near Malcolm's tower in Dunfermline and the little cave tucked under a hill there; and the cove where it is said she first set foot in Scotland, which is called St. Margaret's Hope.

The love story between Margaret and Duncan, unlikely in many aspects, fascinates me and I would like to at some point visit the places listed above.

[Shirley]

Good review, Jennifer. I like your comment about the beauty and the beast love story.

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

I hope to finish this one this week, lol.

THERE IS NOW A POLL UP TO VOTE ON THE BOOK SO THAT WE CAN GIVE IT A GROUP SCORE

[Sabrina]

Great review Jennifer. I read this book after "When Christ and His Saints Slept". I agree with most of what you said. I would love to read more about Queen Margaret and am happy I have been introduced to her, but overall the book just didn't captivate me. If you happen to find a book that focuses more on Margaret and Malcolm and their children, I would love to read it. I wasn't particularly interested in Eva's story and therefore didn't like that she drove the story so much.
My favorite part of the book was the author's note.

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

Shirley wrote: "Good review, Jennifer. I like your comment about the beauty and the beast love story."

Thanks! I'd really like to take credit for the beauty and the beast comment but I did read that somewhere. I just thought it was so true :P

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

Lyn M wrote: "I hope to finish this one this week, lol.

THERE IS NOW A POLL UP TO VOTE ON THE BOOK SO THAT WE CAN GIVE IT A GROUP SCORE"

Thanks Lyn! Voted :)

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

Sabrina wrote: "Great review Jennifer. I read this book after "When Christ and His Saints Slept". I agree with most of what you said. I would love to read more about Queen Margaret and am happy I have been intr..."

Thanks Sabrina! I really want to read some of SKP's work. I've heard such wonderful things about her books. I will definitely keep you posted if I find another book on them. And I totally agree... the author's note was fascinating to me.

[Jennifer, Group Founder/Mod #1]

Here's a link to Bishop Thurgot's work on the life of Margaret

http://mw.mcmaster.ca/scriptorium/mar...

[Lyn (Readinghearts), The mod of last resort/Mod #3]

Thanks for posting Jen. I can't wait to read it.