Week 1 - Chapters 1 - 20

[MadgeUK]

Please don't just say- "wait and see!" I want to talk about how images of death like this may be affecting our read of the book NOW.

LOL. I think the whole book hinges on death - the hunting of a whale (or whales) to death and the possible deaths of the men on board a ship, because the sea is a perilous environment. All on the ship are on a life or death quest. The landlord of the Spouter Inn is called Peter Coffin and in the bedroom scene discussed above, when Queequeg walks in, Ishmael shouts, 'Landlord, for God's sake, Peter Coffin! Landlord! Watch! Coffin! Angels! save me!' This foreshadows events later in the story.

In Chapter 7 the scene in the Chapel is redolent of death:-

'Oh! ye whose dead lie buried beneath the green grass; who standing among flowers can say- here, here lies my beloved; ye know not the desolation that broods in bosoms like these. What bitter blanks in those black-bordered marbles which cover no ashes! What despair in those immovable inscriptions! What deadly voids and unbidden infidelities in the lines that seem to gnaw upon all Faith, and refuse resurrections to the beings who have placelessly perished without a grave. As well might those tablets stand in the cave of Elephanta as here.'

'... if he but embarks for the remotest Indies of this living earth; why the Life Insurance Companies pay death-forfeitures upon immortals; in what eternal, unstirring paralysis, and deadly, hopeless trance, yet lies antique Adam who died sixty round centuries ago; how it is that we still refuse to be comforted for those who we nevertheless maintain are dwelling in unspeakable bliss; why all the living so strive to hush all the dead; wherefore but the rumor of a knocking in a tomb will terrify a whole city. All these things are not without their meanings.'

Where else do you want to go in Chapters 1 - 20? Take your deathly pick Rosemary:).

[Laurel]

Audrey wrote: ""So I was wondering that very thing myself, but then some of the characters in the book -- Elijah, maybe" -- call him a "young man", so I decided to go with that, despite all evidence."

Just fro..."

Thirty seems quite young to me!

[Silver]

Laurele wrote: "Thirty seems quite young to me!."

In context of when the book was written, I do not think 30 would have been perceived as seeming as young than as it does today.

[[deleted user]]

Chapter 15---Chowder

My jottings on this chapter focused on the first paragraph: "crooked directions."

I took from that that in life people [even supposed authorities...parents, priests, proprietors of the best hotels] give advice that they believe to be straight-forward and true and easy to follow....

But it's not. Therefore we're puzzled as we try to find our way through life..."especially at the outset"...

It is only "by dint of beating about a little in the dark and now then knocking up a peacable inhabitant to inqure the way" to we at last get our bearings.

There was confusion and miscommunication aplenty in the ordering of dinner, too... but sustanance was to be had....the clams were good...the cod was good, too.


(I liked considering Bill's Search for Rest musings as well.)

[MadgeUK]

Great post Bill - I fully agree with you here - for a change:):).

When we have finished the read you must watch the old black and white novie with Gregory Peck, directed by John Huston - it is very atmospheric and quite scary!

[Roger]

S. Rosemary wrote: "OK, so Everyman said (I'm putting the blame on you here, if anyone is mad at me!) that it was OK to discuss foreshadowing as we're not pointing it out knowing what's going to happen- we can discuss..."

Yes, I noticed the "last long dive" and immediately knew that Queequeg was doomed.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Clowns are often thought of as tragic figures too. ."

I think all clowns are tragic.

I wonder if its possible we agree about clowns too? Because I think even happy clowns have som..."


Interesting note about clowns which may account for why they often seem so tragic to us today, and why they are a source of fear for so many people. Traditionally clowns were meant to symbolize death. This why they pain their faces white, and use make-up to exaggerate certain features.

In the days of the ancient Etruscans, at festivals, and carnivals and occasions when people were too much indulging in frivolous pleasure, clowns were used as a somber reminder of their own mortality.

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "Ishmael wrote that "it is not down in any map; true places never are""

Thanks for quoting that. I noted it when I read it as something to go back to, but I forgot.

It's such a simple few words, but it has deep repercussions both, as you note, for QQ and also for any of us generally. After all, all that is on the map are the names and locations; the reality of a place is never on the map. And the really important places for us -- my home, my friends' houses, my elementary school, the first place I worked, where I got married, the true places in my life, aren't on any map. (Well, they're on Google Satellite, but that was long after Melville, and even then it's only the images of the place, not the true place.)

It is just one of many such almost throw-away lines of abiding truth in Melville.

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: "QQ is hamming it up somewhat. He's been around whalers and such quite a bit. He knows whats what."

Can you expand on why you say that? I didn't see him hamming it up, but practicing his religion as he understands it.

[Everyman]

Patrice wrote: "BOnce he befriends QQ he understands what was missing in his life. He didn't know before because as he says, you don't know bad until you find good. "

Although they are totally different, they seem different in a very compatible way. Like a key and a lock are totally different, but neither is complete, or of much use, without the other

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "Chapter 15---Chowder

My jottings on this chapter focused on the first paragraph: "crooked directions."

I took from that that in life people [even supposed authorities...parents, priests, pro..."

I really like this post, Adelle. And it goes along with the concept somebody mentioned earlier that the whole book so far seems to suggest (and I have NOT read ahead!) that a major theme will be the search for identity.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: "Chapter 15. Chowder

Speaking of foreshadowing of doom

Does anyone think it is a coincidence that Ishmael has a hard time finding a place of rest again?
Just as he searched for the Spouter-Inn, ..."

At times I cannot help but wonder if in fact Melville is hitting the reader over the head a bit too much with some of his really in your face obvious foreshadowing. It is almost as if he is attempting to give spoilers away to his own book. Considering all of the imagery which the reader is presented with it is next to impossible to imagine any sort of good fate awaiting Ishmael and QQ. And I think the scene in which they imagine they see two nooses one for each of them is really spelling it out. And I am speaking in pure speculation as someone who has never read the book before, and has not yet even completed they first 20 chapters. But to say the least the use of foreshadow in this book is anything but subtle.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: "Biographical. Chapter 12.

Did anyone buy this story? Was this really meant to be taken as actual history?

Its a big ole yarn QQ is spinning, isn't it? Designed to cater to every fantasy of the..."

I agree what when I read this, I could not help but to think that it very much sounded like something of that cliche or ideal of which early Christian's have of the "noble savage." It does seem as if perhaps this was intentional irony on Melville's part, as he creates what seems to be quite a pure and idealistic image of this cannibalistic heathen. And perhaps it is also a way to keep that sort of general image of QQ, by locating him into this fantasy island, and by giving him such an easily identifiable background, this way QQ can stand as sort of a representative of all heathendom, and is perhaps an allegory of the "primitive" and cannot be tied down to a specific location, specific tribe of culture.

But I do not know if the reader is intended to actually doubt the story as it comes from QQ's lips. I do not get the impression that QQ himself here is in fact spinning the fantasy or intentionally telling a lie, but it is the fantasy of the author.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "But I do not know if the reader is intended to actually doubt the story as it comes from QQ's lips. I do not get the impression that QQ himself here is in fact spinning the fantasy o..."

I am perhaps not explaining myself well, and it is a bit difficult to convey what I mean. But I will try. What I am trying to say is that I think in this narration Melville is trying to convey something to the reader, he is perhaps poking fun at the idea of the noble savage or trying to paint this general picture of QQ.

But I do not know if it should be inferred that QQ himself is intentionally lying to/exaggerating, misleading, however you put it to Ishmael.

I suppose in a way you have to detach the voice of the author from the of the character here, which I know is confusing.

But I think QQ himself is speaking honestly of his background, but Melville wishes to convey some greater meaning to the reader through the background he creates for QQ.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "But I think QQ himself is speaking honestly of his background, but Melville wishes to convey some greater meaning to the reader through the background he creates for QQ. ..."

I see..."

I think it is a combination between both 1 and 2. I know someone else brought up Huck Finn, and it does make me think of the character of Jim, a slave, which Mark Twain portrayed in a caricature of what at that time was the stereotypical vision of African Americans. But he himself was not condoning that image, but instead he was feeding back the prejudices of his audiences, as well as making a satirical statement against it.

I understand the point you are trying to make, though at this point in the story I personally do not feel as if I have seen anything in the story to suggest to me that QQ is anything but sincere. Particularly considering the closeness of his friendship with Ishmael, and the rather intimate setting and circumstances in which he told this story of his past to him.

He was happy to have someone he could open up to and speak of his own homeland and there was a very confidential feeling between them at this moment. It does not strike me that in this what seems like a very honest bonding experience, and genuine feeling of friendship between them he would than proceed to pull Ishmael's leg so to speak. To me if that were the case it would be degrading to the intimate connection which they have made. If he were not speaking honestly to Ishmael than he is keeping him a certain measure of distance from him, which would not follow how close they seem to be, and he would thus be seeing Ishmael in the same light as all the others, and not giving him the whole of his trust.

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: ""He says he's our man, Bildad," said Peleg," he wants to ship."
"Dost thee?" said Bildad, in a hollow tone, and turning round to me.
"I dost," said I unconsciously, he was so intense a Quaker."

I was raised among Quakers many of whom still used the plain speech (my parents did on and off, but not consistently).

One of the many Quaker jokes (oh, yes, Quakers love jokes) is of the young Quaker girl who got so angry she really wanted to swear at her tormentor, but of course she couldn't, so she said the worst thing she knew to say: "thee ... thee ... thee YOU thee!"

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: "I'm surprised to learn you haven't read this book yet Eman. I thought you'd read all the classics and was on your third or fourth time. I wonder where I got that impression. "

Most of them, but Moby Dick is one I never had the urge to tackle until Laurel talked me into it (thank you, Laurel!) There are a few others I haven't read, but we may get to some of them here eventually, and some I read forty or fifty years ago and so technically have read but barely remember. There are even a few Greek dramas and Platonic dialogues I've never gotten around to. So no, I'm not as well read in the classics as you thought.

[MadgeUK]

The North of England having been a Quaker stronghold, there is still quite a lot of plain speech used in Yorkshire (and Lancashire) dialects. I often use thee and thou. I have a soft spot for Quakers:).

[Mark]

Bill wrote: "First, let's assume that Melville knows he's drawing a caricature with this biographical (and many of other of QQ's actions). Why would he do the caricature?

1. Is it because he thinks this will appeal to his readers who themselves have this caricature in their head? So he's just feeding them their own ignorant preconception?

2. Or is he mocking the preconception of the noble savage?
"

I find myself resisting the premise of this analysis--that QQ is a "caricature." That is too strong a word for me. Maybe it is because I am so darn fond of the blazingly memorable QQ--he had me at that pressing foreheads together move--that I don't want to consider him as ludicrous or portrayed in a way that subjects him to derision, which I think is implied in the word "caricature." I certainly think all the discussion about him being a stereotypical "noble savage," and all that issue entails is perfectly legitimate. And I know he seems to have some almost super-human and other curious attributes. So call my QQ a stereotype, or maybe resist the believability of some of his physical attributes. But I am willing to suspend some disbelief and enjoy the ride with QQ. I don't find myself laughing at how ludicrous he is.

[[deleted user]]

Silver wrote: "At times I cannot help but wonder if in fact Melville is hitting the reader over the head a bit too much with some of his really in your face obvious foreshadowing. It is almost as if he is attempting to give spoilers away to his own book."

They would only be "spoilers" if the message they are so strongly sending was unintentional. Instead, I think Melville is planting these seeds very much on purpose, partly for atmosphere, but more because he doesn't see his novel as the kind of story that would be "spoiled" for the reader if he or she knew or suspected what was coming. Maybe Melville was ahead of his time with this, because nowadays I don't think it's that unusual for an author to very blatantly spell out the outcome of the story in the first paragraph. The implication being, I would guess:

"Here is the skeleton on which I will hang much more than a mere tale. The plot and your suspense about the outcome are not important, so I'll give it away right now. Pay close attention and find out what does matter here."

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Chapter 17. Ramadan.
The theme here is religion. And religion is a very funny thing to Melville.

The irony in the first two paragraphs of this chapter is hilarious. The whole chapter is so funny..."

I loved all that! Melville definitely seems to be slyly thumbing his nose at ALL religions and religious prejudices.

[[deleted user]]

Yes, I did, too. I'm withholding judgment for the time being! (easy way out)

All I can say with a fair amount of confidence is that religion is clearly a major theme in these early chapters, along with death. In what ways Melville will address each of these as we move along, I don't know. I just know I missed a lot in my first reading of this masterpiece.

[Rosemary]

M wrote: "They would only be "spoilers" if the message they are so strongly sending was unintentional. Instead, I think Melville is planting these seeds very much on purpose, partly for atmosphere, but more because he doesn't see his novel as the kind of story that would be "spoiled" for the reader if he or she knew or suspected what was coming. Maybe Melville was ahead of his time with this, because nowadays I don't think it's that unusual for an author to very blatantly spell out the outcome of the story in the first paragraph. The implication being, I would guess:

"Here is the skeleton on which I will hang much more than a mere tale. The plot and your suspense about the outcome are not important, so I'll give it away right now. Pay close attention and find out what does matter here." "

I really like this post, M, and agree almost entirely. I only take exception to the idea that Melville was ahead of his time. I've read very few modern novels that tell you the ending in the beginning (granted, I've read very few modern novels other than mysteries, which of course wouldn't), while much of the older work I'm acquainted with either tells you outright (like Romeo and Juliet, where we're told in the first few lines of the Prologue that the lovers die), or is based on older stories that the audience could be expected to be familiar with, like Paradise Lost or most of Greek theater.

I think the modern reader is much more concerned about the spoiler than the historic reader, and I don't know why.

Anyway, your greater point stands: knowing or thinking you know the ending (say, that the lovers in R&J die) frees your attention from what happens and turns it to how it happens and why it happens and what it all means, which tend to be more important.

In life one really has to focus on what is going to happen first, as a matter of survival, and only then can turn to the latter questions. I think that's one of the luxuries and strengths of novels, that unlike life we can have hints of the ending and therefore meditate on bigger questions more easily.

[[deleted user]]

Thank you, S. Rosemary! You have improved and expanded upon my post, and I think the point I was trying to make is much more clear now.

"I think the modern reader is much more concerned about the spoiler than the historic reader, and I don't know why."

I'm sure you're right. I was clearly wrong about this being a "new" development in the novel!

[MadgeUK]

all thoughts born of a fast must necessarily be half-starved

A very witty observation!

I don't think Melville is 'taking the mickey' out of QQ and the concept of the Noble Savage, 'Nature's Gentleman', because the idea was one that commanded respect in Melville's day and 'reflected the typical Age of Reason belief that men are everywhere and in all times the same, as well as a Deistic conception of natural religion' which I think chimes with Melville's views as expressed in MD.

There are several tales of 'noble savages' in this Wikipedia entry which may be of interest here but the Islamic tale of Hayy ibn Yaqdhan, a wild child, raised by a gazelle, without human contact, on a deserted island in the Indian Ocean may be relevant to QQ as it was apparently known to a New England divine:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_sa...

Alexander Pope's portrayal of the American Indian may also be apposite 'Lo, the poor Indian! whose untutor'd mind/Sees God in clouds, or hears him in the wind....'

[MadgeUK]

Rosemary wrote: I really like this post (279), M, and agree almost entirely.

Ditto, particularly the last paragraph.

[Andreea]

Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Ishmael wrote that "it is not down in any map; true places never are""

Thanks for quoting that. I noted it when I read it as something to go back to, but I forgot.

It's such a si..."

I love that quote too. Melville lived in a period when maps had to be remade every few years because the shapes and names of countries changed so often - at least the maps that weren't politically charged a lot, different countries routinely made official maps which show them as sovereigns of lands that are not actually in their power or assigned different names than those which countries identify themselves with (for example, between 1859 and 1866, the international community stubbornly called Romania 'The United Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia' because they didn't want to recognize the union of the two countries). He also lived in a country whose maps are eerily full of straight lines.

[MadgeUK]

Patrice wrote: We've just begun the book so perhaps he's raising questions rather than providing answers.

I think there is a lot of that in MD Patrice:). Later I expect there will be lots of answers. I guess that partly accounts for the length of the book:).

[Audrey]

As far as the Noble Savage goes, I think it's important to remember that this isn't a dead concept. The movie Avatar is very recent indeed, and it is positively dripping with Noble Savage ideals.

I tend to think that Melville's ideas on the Noble Savage, like so many people's ideas on all kinds of things, lack internal consistency. I think he sees the problems with it, but simultaneously buys into it, if only on a subconscious level. It reminds me of modern Americans who say things like "I love black people." They believe themselves to be genuinely free of prejudice, while. In reality, the fact that they profess to categorically like all African-Americans inherently betrays the fact that they see fundamental differences between races.

[Silver]

M wrote: "They would only be "spoilers" if the message they are so strongly sending was unintentional. Instead, I think Melville is planting these seeds very much on purpose, partly for atmosphere, but more because he doesn't see his novel as the kind of story that would be "spoiled""

Yes I see you point, and part of my use of the word spoiler was facetious. I was just struck by the very overt use of his foreshadow. It does seem to be a bit more glaring, than many other books I have read in which the use of foreshadow is often more of a subtle hint, a whisper, sometimes it is not even obvious as foreshadow until after the fact and than you can go back and see where the little hints were dropped. But here Mevillive is hitting you over the head with hammer with his use of foreshadow.

And I agree that he must be doing this within intent, perhaps becasue it is true that it is not important to him if the reader can begin to predict what the ultimate outcome of the story will be, and maybe it is also meant to give that feeling of the heavy hand of fate which has been cast upon the characters and cannot be escaped. The way in which Ishmael himself is receiving these "warnings" encountering all of these ominous little signs and yet still propels forward onto this journey.

[Everyman]

M wrote: "They would only be "spoilers" if the message they are so strongly sending was unintentional. Instead, I think Melville is planting these seeds very much on purpose, ..."

That's a very interesting thought. I agree with you (and others) that there is very strong foreshadowing, and am intrigued by your interpretation of the reasons for that.

[Everyman]

M wrote: "Yes, I did, too. I'm withholding judgment for the time being! (easy way out)"

Or 9in this case, sensible. Melville does seems not to have a simplistic view of religion.

I just know I missed a lot in my first reading of this masterpiece.

Which is part of what makes it a classic!

It's also why I love this group so much -- all the great people who have such rich ideas and share them freely, and are interested more in discussion and discovery than in pushing any particular point of view to the exclusion of alternatives. My reading of these books would be infinitely poorer without all the great posters here. Thank you all, and keep it up!

[Everyman]

Patrice wrote: "We've just begun the book so perhaps he's raising questions rather than providing answers. "

Absolutely, as M also pointed out. It's amazing that we're still only on the first week of this discussion and so many essential ideas already in play.

[Everyman]

Silver wrote: "...maybe it is also meant to give that feeling of the heavy hand of fate which has been cast upon the characters and cannot be escaped. The way in which Ishmael himself is receiving these "warnings" encountering all of these ominous little signs and yet still propels forward onto this journey...

Unless I missed it, we haven't talked specifically about Elijah (now there's an overt Biblical reference if there ever was one! Do our Biblical scholars want to enrich us here?) and Chapter 19, "The Prophet." Talk about foreshadowing!

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner seems to me obviously implicated here, with the old sailor stopping the reluctant younger one. It's not a story he tells so much as ominous gloomings.

"No, we hav'n't [met Ahab yet]. He's sick they say, but is getting better, and will be all right again before long."
"All right again before long!" laughed the stranger, with a solemnly derisive sort of laugh. "Look ye; when Captain Ahab is all right, then this left arm of mine will be all right; not before."

and

"if you are speaking of Captain Ahab, of that ship there, the Pequod, then let me tell you, that I know all about the loss of his leg."
"ALL about it, eh—sure you do?—all?"

Ishmael dismisses Elijah as a "crazy man." But we know better, don't we? It's clear to us that this isn't just "habbering," and he isn't a "humbug," but Ishmael doesn't know that. (One of those scenes in a book where I want to reach into it and shake the character and tell him to "watch out and pay attention, by gad, or you'll be sorry."

But a question. Is it consistent with Ishmael's character that he is so quickly able to see the real man, the wisdom, in QueeQueg, but blind to it in Elijah?

[Everyman]

Another curious passage from Chapter 19 is this:

"Have ye shipped in her?" he repeated.

"You mean the ship Pequod, I suppose," said I, trying to gain a little more time for an uninterrupted look at him.
"Aye, the Pequod—that ship there," he said, drawing back his whole arm, and then rapidly shoving it straight out from him, with the fixed bayonet of his pointed finger darted full at the object.
"Yes," said I, "we have just signed the articles."
"Anything down there about your souls?"
"About what?"
"Oh, perhaps you hav'n't got any," he said quickly. "No matter though, I know many chaps that hav'n't got any,—good luck to 'em; and they are all the better off for it. A soul's a sort of a fifth wheel to a wagon."

That seems another of those throw-away lines that has a much deeper meaning if we could plumb it. How could a prophet think that some men had no souls? And why are they better off without them? Is it better for those who ship with Old Thunder not to be burdened with souls?

[[deleted user]]

Everyman wrote: "Ishmael dismisses Elijah as a "crazy man." But we know better, don't we? It's clear to us that this isn't just "habbering," and he isn't a "humbug," but Ishmael doesn't know that. (One of those scenes in a book where I want to reach into it and shake the character and tell him to "watch out and pay attention, by gad, or you'll be sorry."

I was about to post the same thing, right down to the grabbing and shaking of Ishmael! I wanted to shout at him, PAY ATTENTION, DAMN IT! ASK THIS GUY SOME QUESTIONS WHILE YOU CAN!!

Oh, the life of a reader! :-D

[Audrey]

When I first read the line about souls, my first association was the idea of signing one's soul over to the devil, and my brain immediately cast Captain Ahab as the devil. Upon more thought-out reflection, it didn't seem likely to me that this was the intention. Then, I read Everyman's post, which included this quote:

"we have just signed the articles."
"Anything down there about your souls?"

It really does seem intentionally to establish some connection between Ishmael's soul and the signing of the contract. So, now, I'm mostly feeling confused about the whole exchange.

[Audrey]

I don't think it's all that surprising that Ishmael doesn't take Elijah all that seriously. As Bill mentions, it is clearly in his best interest to continue thinking that Elijah is crazy. He wants to go on this whaling voyage. Moreover, we have all seen "prophets" similar to Elijah going on and on about the book of Revelation on street corners or holding cardboard signs saying "The end is coming." We don't take dockyard prophets all that seriously, either. The difference is that, in this particular case, we have the advantage of knowing that you don't ignore literary characters named Elijah.

[Laurel]

Bill wrote: "Here is the funniest passage in the book, so far, to me:
(Its in Chapter 16, The Ship)


"He says he's our man, Bildad," said Peleg," he wants to ship."
"Dost thee?" said Bildad, in a hollow tone, ..."

This reminds me of the bridegroom who, when the minister asks, "Wilt thou....?" replies, "I wilt."

[Laurel]

Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Ishmael wrote that "it is not down in any map; true places never are""

Thanks for quoting that. I noted it when I read it as something to go back to, but I forgot.

It's such a si..."

It turned my mind toward Narnia, Lothlorien, Camelot....

[Rosemary]

MadgeUK wrote: "Later I expect there will be lots of answers. I guess that partly accounts for the length of the book:). "

That and his endless digressions on the Whale in Art, etc. ;-)

[Rosemary]

Patrice wrote: "it is not down in any map; true places never are"

Perhaps incongruously, you know what I just can't stop thinking of every time someone quotes that? Peter Pan.

"It's not on any chart, you find it with your heart- Never-Never Land!"

[Audrey]

"Also, I found the description of the Pequod to be quite eery."

Yes. I did, too. Not to mention that I think it's fascinating that Ishmael chooses this ship, when he has two other options.

It's named after a massacred tribe.

The description of her as decorated with the bones of dead whales is, as you mentioned, quite eery.

To add to that, the bulwark is described as "garnished like one continuous jaw." I'm not sure I'd want to sail in a ship that even vaguely gave me the impression of living inside a whale's mouth.

But it seems to be this very bleakness which makes Ishmael feel at his ease there. It's the same with Captain Ahab. The passage in which Captain Peleg describes Captain Ahab if full of (to us) ominous signs. Yet, Ishmael mostly seems intrigued by all of this: "And yet I also felt a strange awe of him; but that sort of awe, which I cannot at all describe, was not exactly awe; I do not know what it was. But I felt it; and it did not disincline me towards him..."

[[deleted user]]

What great posts! I read this last batch twice. I went back to Everyman at 259. I think Everyman, others, have nudged me to see things I didn't see before.

Everyman wrote about "truths" unmapped truths, in post 259. And Patrice, post 288, greatly influenced me, too. She had written about how maps keep changing as the facts keep changing, and about how often countries would claim areas on their maps that they didn't "legally" own, etc.

And then Silver had a 2 - 3 really good posts, 265, etc... she wrote about how Melville keeps repeating information and foreshadowin...

What if Melville is driving home a point? What if he's saying ... thru the map... thru all the hints... that when we read, when we go through life, we pick up "information" (and humans look for meaning....like someone mentioned about the "gallows"....just ropes...but we project meaning into them)

and as we read and go through life, We think we know, and we think we know, and then "We KNOW" ...

and then we cling to what we know, the map we have in our hand, the religion that we were raised with, the "facts" we have about the natives of Kovokovo, etc.


What was that quote Bill posted? 277. I do not think that my remarks about religion made much impression upon Queequeg. Because, in the first place, he somehow seemed dull of hearing on that important subject, unless considered from his own point of view

Maybe Melville's making some kind of statement about people who are inflexible in their thinking?

Like on the religion. Maybe he's not (post 280) "snubbing all regilions."

Of course, maybe he is. Maybe he was sick and tired of the restrictions his own religion had put on him.

But I, too, found Father Mapple's sermon moving.

MAYBE Melville was saying that holding one's own religion to be the one & only TRUE RELIGION is well worth laughing at.

With so many people & religions in this world, so many on board the ship... it wouldn't be logical to think that only the Presprytrians (sp???) have it right.

If God is the god of the world, wouldn't it make sense that he showed Himself to different peoples differently? Different languages....different skins....different religions.... ??

I think I'm stealing/re-wording what Rosemary wrote in post 283.

That maybe Melville is holding up for us the fact ---HaHaHa --- the fact that when we THINK we know something---we know our religion is RIGHT, we know that Indians are noble savages... (we only see QQ thru Ishmael's eyes.... maybe Ishmael stopped really seeing Qq ... and just "saw" him according to his modified stereotype...???)

Maybe Melville is saying we get some idea into our heads... and then we aren't open to re-examining it. We think we have The Truth.... so we are blind to alterations/or variations on what is true.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "how deeply tragic human existence is..."

Yes.

The poorer parts of town Ishmael walks through are poor indeed.

I keep thinking back to the scene in the cabin when Ishmael is signing.

1) How the two captains played him. Even though one was a Quaker, I think they played him. Ishmael is thinking he'll be signed at something like 1/270th of a share.

The back and forth. Give him 1/777th says Captain B. Nay, too little, too little. By the time they sign him at something like 1/300th, Ishmael feels he's gained from the 1/777th share.

And how very, very materially poor Ishmael was. I haven't the book in front of me. (Obviously.) But he's signing for the 3 year trip and thinking if he gets 1/270th or something like that, that he'll make enough money to pay for the clothes that he'll wear out and that at least he will be fed and housed / (lol...if housed is the word to use) for 3 years.


how deeply tragic human existence is

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "What great posts! I read this last batch twice. ..."

A nice summary of some of the main points.

MAYBE Melville was saying that holding one's own religion to be the one & only TRUE RELIGION is well worth laughing at.

I think it's partly that. That Melville recognizes that there are multiple paths to God, and that QueeQueg's path, while not Ishmael's, is perhaps also a valid path. I agree with you and several others that the sermon is a powerful chapter; I don't think anybody who was denying religion outright could have written it.

Maybe Melville is saying we get some idea into our heads... and then we aren't open to re-examining it. We think we have The Truth.... so we are blind to alterations/or variations on what is true.

I think perhaps this needs more nuance. Ishmael certainly shows that he is open to re-examining his views about Queequeg -- he goes through suspicion, fear, disgust, and maybe some other views, to friendship. Here, at least, I see considerable open-mindedness at work.

[[deleted user]]

Everyman wrote: "..I think perhaps this needs more nuance. Ishmael certainly shows that he is open to re-examining his views about Queequeg -- he goes through suspicion, fear, disgust, and maybe some other views, to friendship. Here, at least, I see considerable open-mindedness at work."

Smile. The whole post probably could have used more nuance. (Husband downstairs yelling the steaks were ready!)

Personally, I was truly amazed at how open-minded Ishmael was. I know people in the here and now and today times who seem more prejudiced than Ishmael. lol....like me! There's no way I'm sharing a bed with a guy who's selling shrunken heads as a side business!

But I also LOVED some of those lines Bill posted. Mmmm. I'm back-tracking now... perhaps Ishmael isn't so much open-minded as he's tolerant???


Well, yes, you're right. In many areas Ishmael DID change his views about Queequeg. 'Tis true.

But he doesn't seem to let go of holding his own ways in the right in religion (Prespryterians are still the religion to hold)...but he unbegrudgingly tolerates Queequeg's religion...and he tolerates it and joins QQ based on his own Prespryterian (sp???) religion thru a nice bit of reasoning.

! Have to see what happens next 20 chapters !

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Audrey wrote: ""But it seems to be this very bleakness which makes Ishmael feel at his ease there. It's the same with Captain Ahab...."

Isn't it strange? From the very beginning Ishmael has found..."

I had forgotten that child scene.

Bill wrote: Is it a desire to embrace the unknown--to take risks? Is it a death wish? Or is it a life wish?

Good questions. What drives Ishmael to take to the sea?

[Bernadette]

Bill wrote: "Patrice wrote: "yes, but then what do you make of the "sermon"? I found it moving. ..."

The sermon was very moving. And even more so when viewed in the youtube clip Eman provided.

I think in Ram..."

That is a great point Bill about Melville's writing. The scene with QQ made me feel the same way, sorta giggling at the image of the big "cannibal" with the statue on his head, but also seeing a very lovely depiction of his faith.

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "1) How the two captains played him. Even though one was a Quaker, I think they played him. Ishmael is thinking he'll be signed at something like 1/270th of a share.

The back and forth. Give him 1/777th says Captain B. Nay, too little, too little. By the time they sign him at something like 1/300th, Ishmael feels he's gained from the 1/777th share. "

Good Quaker / bad Quaker, eh? :)

The Quakers were known as very astute business people. As the Quaker joke goes, the Quakers came to America to do good, and did well.