Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
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Week 1 - Chapters 1 - 20
Silver wrote: "One of the things which is surprising to me about this book and of which I did not expect is how humorous it is (or is it only my twisted since of humor that finds it so). There is such a heavy sen..."Silver, it's not just your, or my, twisted sense of humor: There is a chapter in Beowulf on the Beach: What to Love and What to Skip in Literature's 50 Greatest Hits by Jack Murnighan about MD and the author writes that he finds this to be "...funny, I mean really funny, as in one of the funniest books of all time." Murnighan goes on to explain that reading this book twenty years after h.s., he finally "got" Melville's humor.
Interestingly, Murnighan also writes that in colleges these days, the most popular topic is "...whether Ishmael and Queequeg get busy when they share a bed at the Spouter Inn." He doesn't draw a conclusion on this event but rather states that the students are missing out on what he calls "the best and funniest of all American novels., Lord save us."
I am finding Melville to be much more humorous than I ever would have thought, and I would recommend Murnighan's book to literature lovers. It's an easy but interesting reads about some of the best books ever written, and it's funny as well.
Bernadette wrote: Silver, it's not just your, or my, twisted sense of humor: There is a chapter in Beowulf on the Beach: What to Love and What to Skip in Literature's 50 Greatest Hits about MD and the author writes that he finds this to be "...funny, I mean really funny, as in one of the funniest books of all time." ."It is hard for me to tell sometimes when something is acutally funny, or when it is just me thinking it is funny. Particularly since I had no idea that Moby Dick was intended to be humorous, and never would have expected it to be so. Strangely it is one thing that it seems no one acutally mentions about the book when talking about it. I never once heard anyone reference the comic side of this novel. So I did expect it to just be this sombre melodramatic book.
Silver wrote: "Bernadette wrote: Silver, it's not just your, or my, twisted sense of humor: There is a chapter in Beowulf on the Beach: What to Love and What to Skip in Literature's 50 Greatest Hits about MD and ..."I expected the same thing, a long dry read about a whale. I guess that's why I put off reading it for so long. I have been pleasantly surprised.
Now that we're on the topic of Captain Ahab, I'm wondering if one of our biblically-inclined members could clarify the biblical associations with his name. This is alluded to in the book, so I think it must be significant. However, not being biblically literate, I'm not quite sure what associations we're meant to make.
Speaking of Melville's humor, I enjoyed the scene where Captains Bildad and Peleg argue over what lay to give Ishmael, fleece him thoroughly (at least, from what it looked like to me), but do it in such a way that, even in retrospect, he doesn't seem to notice.
Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "It is hard for me to tell sometimes when something is acutally funny, or when it is just me thinking it is funny. Particularly since I had no idea that Moby Dick was intended to be h..."Yes, that is quite true, but there are moments when sometimes I feel that I am the only one in the room laughing as it were.
So I was not at first sure, if in fact it was Melville's intent for the book to be humorous (which I know realize it seems to be) or if it was purely myself that was finding it so.
Bill wrote: In fact tragedy can intensify comedy immensely--but one needs a certain perspective.
."
Some of my favorite types of literature or those in which tragedy and comedy are blended together.
Bernadette wrote: he finds this to be "...funny, I mean really funny, as in one of the funniest books of all time."But MD isn't THAT funny, is it? Like lots of posters, I have been pleasantly surprised by the humor that pops up with some frequency in MD. But I find the book to be a profoundly serious, multi-faceted novel with some really heavy-duty themes that appear to be developing. It has some great comic relief now and then, but it is not a yuck-a-minute for me. "One of the funnies books of all time" seems kind of crazy to me.
Mark wrote: "Bernadette wrote: he finds this to be "...funny, I mean really funny, as in one of the funniest books of all time."But MD isn't THAT funny, is it? Like lots of posters, I have been pleasantly ..."
I don't feel that it is the funniest book of all time, like the author of Beowulf on the Beach, but I do find a lot of humor in Melville's writing. I have found myself laughing a couple of times while reading the book but wouldn't call it a "laugh riot."
Patrice wrote: "Wasn't Gregory Peck the preacher in the link Eman gave us? Does he play both Ahab and the preacher?"I was interested to see that the first movie with G. Peck cast him as Ahab. In a later film, I think it was made in the 80s, Peck plays Father Mapple. They are both on Netflix but the 80s version isn't readily available for some reason
In the 1956 movie G. Peck played Ahab; Orson Wells played Father Mapple.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049513/f...
In the 1998 TV mini series, Patrick Stewart played Ahab; G. Peck played Father Mapple.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120756/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049513/f...
In the 1998 TV mini series, Patrick Stewart played Ahab; G. Peck played Father Mapple.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120756/
Bill wrote: "Chapter 10. A Bosom Friend.Speaking of humor. This is a funny chapter to me. These two people, alone in the inn lobby together, seeming distinctively uncomfortable--even after having slept in ..."
One of the things which really strikes me and impresses me is Ishmael's complete and open mindedness and acceptance. It is to me quite touching the way in which he is so willing and ready to set aside what could seem like vast differences between him and QQ and actually reaches out to him a hand of friendship. He is able and willing to see who QQ the man beneath the skin, and tattoos, and strange foreignness is, to see his real true self and get to know him as a fellow human being. In this way Ishamel strikes me as being one of this rather rare "true" Christians.
I quite agree with your observations, I myself could not help the feeling that all the while Ishamel thinks QQ is oblivious to his presence, and Ishamel's observation of him, in fact he is very much aware. But than I also wonder if this is not my own perceptions/prejudices/presumptions, in which native/primitive, people are often portrayed as being far more alert and attuned to their surroundings than Westernized civilization, because they do live so much closer to the earth. So I wonder if I am not simply projecting onto QQ my own expectations of his character here.
I know we have touched upon the possible suggestions of something of a homosexual relationship, and while I myself do not completely think that such is intended, at the same time, I cannot think that the continual references to QQ and Ishmael being akin to a husband and wife are coincidental, and I question if they are purely "innocent" for it to me seems like such an odd way for a friendship between two men to be described. While I know today our views about masculinity, intimacies, friendship, bonds, between both same sexes and the different sexes have changed, I cannot think of another book I have read in which male companionship has been referenced in this particular way. I cannot think it was common for men to indeed speak of themselves as being like lovers, or being like a husband and wife pair.
Patrice wrote: "It was written later but has anyone thought of "Oh Captain My Captain" by Walt Whitman? "Actually, I did. But I also though back to Plato who used the image of the ship representing the state, and the captain being the head of state guiding the ship of state. That phrase is in widespread usage, but is at last 2,500 years old.
Patrice wrote: "The "wrath" reminded me of "the grapes of wrath" in "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord"Which, though, was not written until 1861, so would not have been known to Melville. However, the basic concept comes from Revelation:
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
The Phrase Finder says that the actual phrase "grapes of wrath" originated in the Battle Hymn lyrics, but I don't know how reliable a source that is; it might have been used elsewhere earlier.
Bill wrote: "Mark wrote: "But MD isn't THAT funny, is it? ..... I find the book to be a profoundly serious, multi-faceted novel with some really heavy-duty themes that appear to be developing. ..."I agree tha..."
I can't take credit for the comments about the humor, and have to attribute it to Jack Murnighan, the author of Beowulf on the Beach: What to Love and What to Skip in Literature's 50 Greatest Hits. Murnaghan also writes that "...once you get Melville's sense of humor, Moby Dick becomes the classic it really is, and the best novel ever written by an American." I'll have to finish MD before I can agree or disagree with that opinion.
I agree that, for now, there doesn't seem to be much connection between the biblical Ahab and the captain of the Pequod. But I think there must be some sifnificance there, because of this passage in Chapter 16:"And yet the old squaw Tistig, at Gay-head, said that the name would somehow prove prophetic."
I have difficulty believing that Melville would spend so much time bringing the name's biblical connections to our attention (the exchange I took this from lasts about half a page), if he didn't mean something by them. Moreover, the book so far is filled with biblical names, and Melville seems to have chosen them very deliberately. The possible significance of Ishmael has been discussed. One we haven't addressed yet, but which I think is equally telling, is that of the supposed lunatic Elijah--who nevertheless has the name of a revered biblical prophet. Ishmael and Queequeg shrug off his prophecies, but I think that, with a name like Elijah, we are meant to listen to him. He reminds me of the soothsayer in Julius Caesar who tells Caesar to beware the ides of March.
No doubt the innkeeper at the Spouter had sent many yokels up to share a bed with the "harpooneer," and enjoyed the joke when they came rushing out in their nightclothes when they caught a glimpse of the Queequeg. I imagine Queequeg endured this silently with his natural dignity, but was inwardly glad when at last someone overcame the initial shock and treated him like a fellow human being. I think that explains his desire to make a close frieng of Ishmael.
Bernadette wrote: "Bill wrote: "Mark wrote: "But MD isn't THAT funny, is it? ..... I find the book to be a profoundly serious, multi-faceted novel with some really heavy-duty themes that appear to be developing. ..."..."Yes, Bernadette, I might have done a better job excerpting your post at the start of mine to make it clear that it is Jack Murnaghan, the Beowulf on the Beach author, that is calling MD "one of the funniest books of all time." Sorry if my post suggested that particular quote was your opinion. I think your view is pretty close to mine and perfectly reasonable. I think Murnaghan's view is over the top a bit. Thanks for sharing that, though, and also the follow-up quote from him.
M wrote: "I don't know, I think he's just young. The church service and the memorial tablets on the wall brought him some sobering moments, but in the end they weren't enough to overcome his natural exuberance about his imminent sea voyage, the prospect of which has cheered him up from his previous depressed state. Sure, he has some reasonable fears, but they may just add an extra frisson of excitement. That's youth for ya! "Hmmm. I she really that young? First, he's a school teacher, which implies even in 1851 at least some years at college. Then he has obviously taken voyages before: he says to Captain Peleg "I've been several voyages in the merchant service,..." but it seems clear from the opening chapter that these are not back-to-back, but interspersed with his onshore life, and he only goes to see when he gets depressed with his shore life.
I'm not sure what age you consider young, but this seems to me a man I would guess at least in his early 30s. Just my opinion, though; I don't think we really have any indication of his specific age.
Patrice wrote: "Wasn't Gregory Peck the preacher in the link Eman gave us? Does he play both Ahab and the preacher?"Gregory Peck was Captain Ahab in the 50's and the preacher later on, to Captain Jon Luc Picard's Captain Ahab.
Mark wrote: "Bernadette wrote: "Bill wrote: "Mark wrote: "But MD isn't THAT funny, is it? ..... I find the book to be a profoundly serious, multi-faceted novel with some really heavy-duty themes that appear to ..."No problem Mark. I think that why I like Murnighan's book so much, he's got some very interesting ideas about books that I've never considered (as does this book group!) and he presents them in a "fun" way to encourage people to read the classics. He also writes things like Henry James was textually constipated :)
Patrice wrote: I was thinking something similar. That the description could have been used as a way of demonstrating how innocent the two were...."Yes, I really do not feel or believe that it truly is meant to allude to them as having a homosexual relationship, I just do not get that, I cannot deny that there is a certain feeling of "innocence" about it, but at the same time, it is hard to visual these two men both who are experienced sea men as truly being particularly naive. They have been in the world, and experienced the world.
I cannot altogether make out what is being said in these depictions of them and their new found relationship. And I have to admit I find it hard to altogether ignore just how homoerotic Chapter 11 is.
Perhaps it is a recognition of the fact that it is not uncommon for men when placed within these situations, such as war, or being at sea for a long period of time, in which they are depraved of the affections of women, do sometimes turn to each other and the bonds between men in the absence of women can take a more intimate note.
Bernadette wrote: "I think that why I like Murnighan's book so much,..."You persuaded me to go dig out my copy! And right next to it I found Delbanco's Required Reading, which has a chapter on Melville I'll read as soon as I can.
Perhaps there might be a couple of aspects that might apply. Perhaps, as Patrice, I think others, too, suggested, Queequeg might indeed represent something of "the noble savage," an aboriginal man from the non-catalogued island of Kokovoko.
Ishmael wrote that "it is not down in any map; true places never are" (71). As a native from a true place, Queequeg might represent a truer man; one who offers truer friendship.
And on the other side, there's Ishmael. Quite probably calling himself Ishmael due to the sense of "
outsideness" that he feels. Perhaps he's weathered a storm of rejection and that is why, maybe, he is feeling so depressed that he has to go to sea. And remember: he's felt this way before.
With Queequeg offering true, non-judmental, share-and-share alike friendship, with money for the trouser pockets, and Ishmael given the power to decide the ship they'll sail on, and affectionate arms across the chest in the mornings, and full body hugs for a man who grew up in New England and was perhaps hungry for the touch---platonic or not---of a fellow human being...
Maybe this is friendship fulfills the needs of Ishmael. Maybe there's a little something in it for Queegueg, too: someone who accepts QQ right back: chosing to look past the tatoos and harpoons and shrunken heads, making the effort to overcome the language difficulties and communicate with QQ.
Maybe it's a sort of symbiotic relationship: Ishmael gets the physciality he needs (the arm, the hugs, the comfortable camaraderie over a shared peace pipe) and Queequeg gets the chance to communicate and share his thoughts with someone willing to hear past his South Pacific talkie-funny dialect and hear the thoughts of his heart.
Ishmael wrote that "it is not down in any map; true places never are" (71). As a native from a true place, Queequeg might represent a truer man; one who offers truer friendship.
And on the other side, there's Ishmael. Quite probably calling himself Ishmael due to the sense of "
outsideness" that he feels. Perhaps he's weathered a storm of rejection and that is why, maybe, he is feeling so depressed that he has to go to sea. And remember: he's felt this way before.
With Queequeg offering true, non-judmental, share-and-share alike friendship, with money for the trouser pockets, and Ishmael given the power to decide the ship they'll sail on, and affectionate arms across the chest in the mornings, and full body hugs for a man who grew up in New England and was perhaps hungry for the touch---platonic or not---of a fellow human being...
Maybe this is friendship fulfills the needs of Ishmael. Maybe there's a little something in it for Queegueg, too: someone who accepts QQ right back: chosing to look past the tatoos and harpoons and shrunken heads, making the effort to overcome the language difficulties and communicate with QQ.
Maybe it's a sort of symbiotic relationship: Ishmael gets the physciality he needs (the arm, the hugs, the comfortable camaraderie over a shared peace pipe) and Queequeg gets the chance to communicate and share his thoughts with someone willing to hear past his South Pacific talkie-funny dialect and hear the thoughts of his heart.
Everyman wrote: "Bernadette wrote: "I think that why I like Murnighan's book so much,..."You persuaded me to go dig out my copy! And right next to it I found Delbanco's Required Reading, which has a chapter on M..."
Just checked out Delbanco's book, very interested... now I have to get it! It appears to be a little more academic where Murnighan is more "fun", am I right?
There's a quote on Delbanco's website: "But the most last experience that I have had that keeps me continually aware that writing is a great mystery is the experience of reading Melville."
Patrice wrote: "Silver wrote: "Patrice wrote: I was thinking something similar. That the description could have been used as a way of demonstrating how innocent the two were...."
Yes, I really do not feel or beli..."
You're right on that point, Patrice. There is the appearance; there is the reality. Ah, that darn
Ambiguity raises it's difficult-to-understand-head once again!
Yes, I really do not feel or beli..."
You're right on that point, Patrice. There is the appearance; there is the reality. Ah, that darn
Ambiguity raises it's difficult-to-understand-head once again!
Bill wrote: "Bernadette wrote: "Henry James was textually constipated :) ..."Oh my--that so completely describes The Portrait of a Lady which I just finished.
I'd only say it had a certain delibe..."
Agreed, I just finished Portrait too, guess that's why I found the description interesting.
Bernadette wrote: "Bill wrote: "Bernadette wrote: "Henry James was textually constipated :) ..."
Oh my--that so completely describes The Portrait of a Lady which I just finished.
I'd only say it had..."
[I absolutely LOVED Portrait of a Lady!!][It was The Golden Bowl that almost made me wonder if he was being paid by the word a la' Dickens, et. al.]
Oh my--that so completely describes The Portrait of a Lady which I just finished.
I'd only say it had..."
[I absolutely LOVED Portrait of a Lady!!][It was The Golden Bowl that almost made me wonder if he was being paid by the word a la' Dickens, et. al.]
mmm, you know, it occurs to me that we could also look at Ishmael as so repressed that he feels he has to hide his very identity and use a pseudonym.
And Queegueg? The meaning of his life is tatooed into his very skin for all to see.
EDIT: To return to the story given of Jonah...the Captian crying, "Who's there? Who's there?"
Mayhap Ishmael doesn't quite know who he is.
Queegueg, son of King and Queen, assuredly makes his way through life with his "ambitious soul" (71), knowing what he wants and going after it: canoeing out to the big ship because he goes after what he wants. A harpoon man, is he. Not just engaging from the safe areas of life. Not Queequeg. He practically jumps down the throats of the Big Fish, so ardent is he.
And Queegueg? The meaning of his life is tatooed into his very skin for all to see.
EDIT: To return to the story given of Jonah...the Captian crying, "Who's there? Who's there?"
Mayhap Ishmael doesn't quite know who he is.
Queegueg, son of King and Queen, assuredly makes his way through life with his "ambitious soul" (71), knowing what he wants and going after it: canoeing out to the big ship because he goes after what he wants. A harpoon man, is he. Not just engaging from the safe areas of life. Not Queequeg. He practically jumps down the throats of the Big Fish, so ardent is he.
Patrice wrote:His misery lifts. It's a turning point in his state of mind.
"
He does seem in better spirits after having met and after having become friends with Queequeg, doesn't he?
"
He does seem in better spirits after having met and after having become friends with Queequeg, doesn't he?
Adelle wrote: "He does seem in better spirits after having met and after having become friends with Queequeg, doesn't he?"Yes, this is true, it does seem that in spite of the seemingly strangeness or unlikeness in this pair, while on the outside appearing so different from each other, and coming from such completely different backgrounds, they are bonded on some common ground between them. They are both outsiders/exiles in their own way and in this they have been drawn to each other and each can offer the other something. And perhaps first and foremost in spite of all that would seem to stand between them they can offer each other an understanding which they do not get from others.
QQ is removed from his home land and perhaps is accustomed to being shunned for his appearance, beliefs, livelihood, and accustomed to others simply making judgements about him based upon his appearance. He sits apart from the others.
While Ishmael feels discontent within his own life so that he feels the need to run away from it and the whole business of whaling is like foreign ground for him.
Perhaps they both are yearning for a sort of companionship which no one else can offer them. It is interesting the way in which Ishmael, whose own true identity is hidden, who is trying to escape from his very identity by taking on this false name and throwing himself into this new experience, is drawn to this individual who rather proudly displays his own identity out of the open for anyone to see.
Upon their first encounter Ishmael describes QQ as being "a creature in the transition state—neither caterpillar nor butterfly." Yes I cannot help but to think that Ishmael is the one who is in this transitional phase, he is the one who seems caught between who he once was and who he may be seeking to become. I cannot help but to feel that indeed at the end of this experience he is about to embark upon he will emerged transformed in someway.
I had second thoughts. I think that's the point. Melville knew what he was doing. He was creating uncertainty in the readers mind, just as we go through life, with constant uncertainty.Great observation Patrice! And life at sea is more uncertain than most!
homosexuality was considered extremely deviant and therefore very rare.Human nature being what it is and has always been Bill, it was no more rare in Melville's time than, say, in the Greek and Roman eras, just more secretive!
It has been suggested that Melville formed a homoerotic (NOT homosexual) attachment to Nathaniel Hawthorne about which he wrote:-
'A man of a deep and noble nature had seized me in this seclusion. . . . The soft ravishments of the man spun me round about in a web of dreams. . . . But already I feel that Hawthorne had dropped germinous seeds into my soul. He expands and deepens down, the more I contemplate him; and further and further shoots his strong New-England roots into the hot soil in my Southern soul.'
Apparently Melville thought his wife dull, and took every opportunity to leave home for the all-male company of bars, shipyards, and long sea voyages.
'In his novel Redburn there are homosexual undertones in the characters of Jackson and Bolton and during a second voyage to the South Seas, 1841-42, he jumped ship in the Marquessas Islands with his friend Richard Tobias Greene, and drew upon this in his first novel Typee (1846), which again has some homosexual undertones. Later he worked in Tahiti, which produced some copy for Omoo (1847), about 'bosom friends,' and which contains a specific allusion to the 'unnatural crimes' of the Tahitian Prince Pomaree II. Contemporary observers even at that time were reporting that homosexuality was tolerated in the Marquessas and Tahiti.'
So we are perhaps not wrong to see some homoeroticism between Queepeg and Ishmael. There are, after all, some very sexual phrases in the bed scene: Ishmael catches sight of a 'bald purplish head' of a 'purple rascal'. He muses: 'You had almost thought I had been his wife.' Just so we do not miss the significance of this line, Melville adds two more variations: 'his bridegroom clasp' and 'hugging a fellow male in that matrimonial sort of style.' They then give symbolic birth to a child: 'Throwing aside the quilt, there lay the tomahawk sleeping by the savage's side, as if it were a hatchet-faced baby.' !
Patrice wrote: And the "big question", as we said before, was "why would Melville raise these questions in our minds"?.... I think you hit the nail on the head in this post Patrice! And I don't think we should ignore the homoeroticism just because it isn't explicit. It may become a vital part of the story and Melville may be deliberately alerting us to it at this early stage. There is also a lot of difference - ambiguity - between homoeroticism and homosexuality, which is perhaps worth bearing in mind since you have alerted us to Melville's ambiguity in other areas.
MadgeUK wrote: "So we are perhaps not wrong to see some homoeroticism between Queepeg and Ishmael. There are, after all, some very sexual phrases in the bed scene: Ishmael catches sight of a 'bald purplish head' of a 'purple rascal'. He muses: 'You had almost thought I had been his wife.' Just so we do not miss the significance of this line, Melville adds two more variations: 'his bridegroom clasp' and 'hugging a fellow male in that matrimonial sort of style.' They then give symbolic birth to a child: 'Throwing aside the quilt, there lay the tomahawk sleeping by the savage's side, as if it were a hatchet-faced baby.' "
But he goes on to make this explicit point:
His story being ended with his pipe's last dying puff, Queequeg embraced me, pressed his forehead against mine, and blowing out the light, we rolled over from each other, this way and that, and very soon were sleeping.
Anyway, although I understand why people see all kinds of homoeroticism here, even after reading and considering all the well-reasoned posts about it, I still don't see it that way.
Also, @ Bill, yeah, I did believe Queequeg's autobiographical story (in the context of the novel, of course). Why not?
But he goes on to make this explicit point:
His story being ended with his pipe's last dying puff, Queequeg embraced me, pressed his forehead against mine, and blowing out the light, we rolled over from each other, this way and that, and very soon were sleeping.
Anyway, although I understand why people see all kinds of homoeroticism here, even after reading and considering all the well-reasoned posts about it, I still don't see it that way.
Also, @ Bill, yeah, I did believe Queequeg's autobiographical story (in the context of the novel, of course). Why not?
Everyman wrote: "Hmmm. I she really that young? First, he's a school teacher, which implies even in 1851 at least some years at college. Then he has obviously taken voyages before: he says to Captain Peleg "I've been several voyages in the merchant service,..." but it seems clear from the opening chapter that these are not back-to-back, but interspersed with his onshore life, and he only goes to see when he gets depressed with his shore life.
I'm not sure what age you consider young, but this seems to me a man I would guess at least in his early 30s. Just my opinion, though; I don't think we really have any indication of his specific age. "
Ahh! I've been busted. :-D I confess I had been wondering, How can this guy be all that "young"? At one point he specifically mentions having been on four previous trips to sea, and that's interspersed with his ordinary life, as you say. So I was wondering that very thing myself, but then some of the characters in the book -- Elijah, maybe" -- call him a "young man", so I decided to go with that, despite all evidence.
I'm not sure what age you consider young, but this seems to me a man I would guess at least in his early 30s. Just my opinion, though; I don't think we really have any indication of his specific age. "
Ahh! I've been busted. :-D I confess I had been wondering, How can this guy be all that "young"? At one point he specifically mentions having been on four previous trips to sea, and that's interspersed with his ordinary life, as you say. So I was wondering that very thing myself, but then some of the characters in the book -- Elijah, maybe" -- call him a "young man", so I decided to go with that, despite all evidence.
Bill wrote: Melville obviously intends humor in certain details of his book. But for the book to be truly comical, one has to get some kind of perspective that sees Ishmael, QQ, Ahab, etc., in a rather absurd or clownish aspect.
I can certainly see this myself. It is entirely possible to see the same character as very deeply tragic and very deeply comical at the same time. In fact tragedy can intensify comedy immensely--but one needs a certain perspective.
I think the most comical is that which is unintended. In fact, that may be the essence of comedy. So, if Melville did not intend his characters to have an absurd or clownish aspect--and if it becomes obvious that he does not intend it--and yet they still do---thats going to be very very funny."
Bill wrote: "Absurdity, to the degree it is deeply felt, simultaneously contains both pathos and comedy in equal depth. Bernadette, with her citation of the professor, has infected my brain and now I'm afraid I will continually see these characters as absurd. As grand, majestic, sad, hilarious, and absurd. Clowns. I see it clearly now. Thanks Bernadette. :)
Here is a question for everyone. In chapter 10, A bosom friend. Who seems the most clownish. And why?"
This is an interesting take, but it doesn't work for me. The characters, to me, all have too much dignity to be seen as clowns or clownish. I laughed a lot in these chapters, but never once felt like I was reading a comic novel.
So I guess I disagree with Mr. Murnighan on this one, though I'm intrigued by the sound of that book overall and have added it to my "to-read" list. Thanks for the link, Bernadette. Though I don't plan to skip chapters anywhere!
I can certainly see this myself. It is entirely possible to see the same character as very deeply tragic and very deeply comical at the same time. In fact tragedy can intensify comedy immensely--but one needs a certain perspective.
I think the most comical is that which is unintended. In fact, that may be the essence of comedy. So, if Melville did not intend his characters to have an absurd or clownish aspect--and if it becomes obvious that he does not intend it--and yet they still do---thats going to be very very funny."
Bill wrote: "Absurdity, to the degree it is deeply felt, simultaneously contains both pathos and comedy in equal depth. Bernadette, with her citation of the professor, has infected my brain and now I'm afraid I will continually see these characters as absurd. As grand, majestic, sad, hilarious, and absurd. Clowns. I see it clearly now. Thanks Bernadette. :)
Here is a question for everyone. In chapter 10, A bosom friend. Who seems the most clownish. And why?"
This is an interesting take, but it doesn't work for me. The characters, to me, all have too much dignity to be seen as clowns or clownish. I laughed a lot in these chapters, but never once felt like I was reading a comic novel.
So I guess I disagree with Mr. Murnighan on this one, though I'm intrigued by the sound of that book overall and have added it to my "to-read" list. Thanks for the link, Bernadette. Though I don't plan to skip chapters anywhere!
M wrote: "Bill wrote: Melville obviously intends humor in certain details of his book. But for the book to be truly comical, one has to get some kind of perspective that sees Ishmael, QQ, Ahab, etc., in a ra..."I don't plan on skipping chapters either. I'm a little puzzled as to why Murnighan recommends parts of books that can be skipped. Maybe he thinks that people would be more likely to read some of the tomes he writes about if they feel they can get through them more quickly...who knows?
M wrote: Anyway, although I understand why people see all kinds of homoeroticism here, even after reading and considering all the well-reasoned posts about it, I still don't see it that way..."M - the phrase you quote doesn't negate the earlier obvious homoeroticism, only the likelihood of it being a homosexual union. As Patrice has said, there is a lot of ambiguity there.
Its just my opinion that gay or not, Melville is up to much more important expression, to me, then gay expression. Again, thats just for me. I think to the degree that we start seeing this novel as some sort of gay manifesto--to that degree we lose focus of other themes that I find more important and meaningful to me. But if someone wants to talk about it in this forum as the painful expression of a oppressed gay man--its fine with me; its just not where my interests lie.I didn't think that anyone here, certainly not myself, was suggesting that Melville was writing any sort of a 'gay manifesto' - perish the thought - or as of it being the writing of 'an oppressed gay man'! The book is much wider ranging than that. I doubt that anyone's personal interests here are are focussed on that topic, we are just commenting on certain passages which seem to 'fit the bill' at this point and saying that they might assume significance later.
MadgeUK wrote: "I didn't think that anyone here, certainly not myself, was suggesting that Melville was writing any sort of a 'gay manifesto' - perish the thought - or as of it being the writing of 'an oppressed gay man'! The book is much wider ranging than that. I doubt that anyone's personal interests here are are focussed on that topic, we are just commenting on certain passages which seem to 'fit the bill' at this point and saying that they might assume significance later."
That's a great point, Madge. I think it's a fantastic idea to try to extract as many potential themes/ideas as possible from the first stretch of a great book. One can then set them to the side and pull them back in any time later on, if they prove to be relevant. Maybe something really obscure now will assume huge importance later, so it's better to try to capture all the possibilites now while we can.
For me, one of those ideas gleaned from posters here that I want to stash to the side and see if it will come into play is the biblical Ahab. I've got read his story in the Bible; surely there's more to him than just being the hubby of the famous Jezebel?
That's a great point, Madge. I think it's a fantastic idea to try to extract as many potential themes/ideas as possible from the first stretch of a great book. One can then set them to the side and pull them back in any time later on, if they prove to be relevant. Maybe something really obscure now will assume huge importance later, so it's better to try to capture all the possibilites now while we can.
For me, one of those ideas gleaned from posters here that I want to stash to the side and see if it will come into play is the biblical Ahab. I've got read his story in the Bible; surely there's more to him than just being the hubby of the famous Jezebel?
Ahab is well worth lashing to the side of your ship M!:).
"So I was wondering that very thing myself, but then some of the characters in the book -- Elijah, maybe" -- call him a "young man", so I decided to go with that, despite all evidence."Just from my own personal observation, it seems to have been fairly common in the 19th century to refer to men in their early 30s as "young men." I don't think usage of the phrase was as restricted then as it is today.
M wrote: " the biblical Ahab. I've got read his story in the Bible; surely there's more to him than just being the hubby of the famous Jezebel?
And Melville's Ahab seems to have such a pleasant wife with a Puritan name.
OK, I found something that can be filed under the category Author's Intent. Melville wrote to Hawthorne in regards to Ahab. I'm going back to find out how to do that spoler alert thing in case readers don't want to be influenced by Melville when reading of Ahab.
And Melville's Ahab seems to have such a pleasant wife with a Puritan name.
OK, I found something that can be filed under the category Author's Intent. Melville wrote to Hawthorne in regards to Ahab. I'm going back to find out how to do that spoler alert thing in case readers don't want to be influenced by Melville when reading of Ahab.
Adelle wrote: "what Melville wrote to Hawthorne re "Ahab":Great quotes Adelle - thanks!
Thanks, Adelle! haha, love it.
@ Audrey: Thanks for that info! Now it makes more sense. I do try not to get waylaid by such minutiae in great novels, but it's the way my brain works, and sometimes I still get caught. But generally, reading Proust has cured me of getting too caught up in great novels' self-contradictory chronologies, characters' ages in this scene or that, etc.
@ Audrey: Thanks for that info! Now it makes more sense. I do try not to get waylaid by such minutiae in great novels, but it's the way my brain works, and sometimes I still get caught. But generally, reading Proust has cured me of getting too caught up in great novels' self-contradictory chronologies, characters' ages in this scene or that, etc.
OK, so Everyman said (I'm putting the blame on you here, if anyone is mad at me!) that it was OK to discuss foreshadowing as we're not pointing it out knowing what's going to happen- we can discuss it in speculation. I'm nearing the end of the book, and wanted to point out and discuss the foreshadowing that may (or may not!) be happening here before I know what REALLY happens and am therefore unable to discuss it!
At this point in the book I'm convinced that Queequeg at least is doomed. I haven't read the book before and don't know how it ends, but I first noticed hints in that cozy bedroom scene when Ishmael wakes to find Queequeg's arm thrown over him, and is unable to wriggle free, "as though naught but death should part us twain."
I might have passed over that, but then during Queequeg's-heroic-save scene Ishmael reflects in the following way: "From that hour on I clove to Queequeg like a barnacle; yea, till poor Queequeg took his last long dive."
In my mind, that's foreshadowing as subtle as a baseball bat to the head, but what do others think? Did others notice? Other foreshadow-y details in the first 20 chapters only?
Please don't just say- "wait and see!" I want to talk about how images of death like this may be affecting our read of the book NOW.
For me, having what seem to be glimpses of the future are definitely tilting my read to think more about death and mortality whenever the characters discuss it, which is relatively frequently.
As an addendum to my last post about death, I particularly enjoyed the discussion at the end of chapter 18: "Peleg! Peleg!" said Bildad, lifting his eyes and hands, "thou thyself, as I myself, hast seen many a perilous time; thou knowest, Peleg, what it is to have the fear of death; how, then, can'st thou prate in this ungodly guise. Thou beliest thine own heart, Peleg. Tell me, when this same Pequod here had her three masts overboard in that typhoon on Japan, that same voyage when thou went mate with Captain Ahab, did'st thou not think of Death and the Judgment then?"
"Hear him, hear him now," cried Peleg, marching across the cabin, and thrusting his hands far down into his pockets,—"hear him, all of ye. Think of that! When every moment we thought the ship would sink! Death and the judgment then? What? With all three masts making such an everlasting thundering against the side; and every sea breaking over us, fore and aft. Think of Death and the Judgment then? No! no time to think about Death then. Life was what Captain Ahab and I was thinking of; and how to save all hands—how to rig jury-masts—how to get into the nearest port; that was what I was thinking of."
Besides being very true to my experience (never been in real peril myself but am regularly with people who are- I am NEVER thinking about the nature of mortality, only whether my chest compressions are deep enough or whatever else I'm doing- I think about mortality LATER), I think this goes to address what M. and Silver discussed in posts #160 and #163- how is it that Ishmael manages to go so blithely into danger, aware of it yet brushing it off.
Even when catastrophic death IS imminent, it rarely seems so. Life always gets in the way!
Bill wrote: "M wrote: "The characters, to me, all have too much dignity to be seen as clowns ."I understand that. You and I have a different take on clowns.
I think the more dignified a clown is the funni..."
Clowns are often thought of as tragic figures too.
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M, I think yours might be the first of hundreds of posts dealing with Ahab before we are through. The anticipation that Melville builds about Ahab is amazing. I can hardly wait for his arrival. I have vague memories of the 50's movie version when G. Peck as Ahab made his first appearance, but I am confident that Melville's word-pictures will have even greater impact than what I remember from that film. And I expect we'll all be luxuriating in the dramatic language that Melville offers from Ahab's mouth.
In addition to getting us all to keep turning the pages (or thumb-sweeping our glass screens right-to-left!), I guess the delayed arrival serves the purpose of creating a mysterious and maybe mythical aura around Ahab. I'm pretty sure the first mention of Ahab comes in Ch. 16 when Capt. Peleg says to Ishmael, "Want to see what whaling is, eh? Have ye clapped eye on Captain Ahab?" A few paragraphs earlier though, Peleg threatens Ishmael that he'll "take that leg away from thy stern" if he mentions merchant service again. I felt that Ahab was somehow always present after that first mention. Maybe I am imputing to the text some of my own biases from my general awareness of Ahab and his importance to the book and American Lit, but I do think Melville deserves the credit for making us anticipate Ahab's arrival so acutely.
Near the end of Ch. 16, Peleg says: "He's a grand, ungodly, god-like man, Captain Ahab." I'm greatly looking forward to meeting the guy that merits that description!