Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion - Moby Dick
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Week 1 - Chapters 1 - 20
S. Rosemary wrote: "What I find interesting is that I find Moby Dick on the whole more racist than Huck Finn- in Huck Finn Twain uses racist language to blow the whole thing up, while in Moby Dick Melville doesn't seem to realize how awful he can be. Yet I've very rarely heard Moby Dick criticized for this reason- certainly not in comparison to Huck Finn!"
But this is Ishmael speaking, not Melville. Ishmael has his own distinctive character and his own views. I don't think Melville wants his narrator to sound too far beyond the average US resident of the time in his views. So I think he's doing this on purpose.
But this is Ishmael speaking, not Melville. Ishmael has his own distinctive character and his own views. I don't think Melville wants his narrator to sound too far beyond the average US resident of the time in his views. So I think he's doing this on purpose.
Vikz wrote: "Patrice wrote: "I love that idea Adelle. "Heart of Darkness" kept coming to my mind as I read but I wasn't sure exactly why. Queegqueeg as the ID? Maybe the whale too? Wasn't the leviathan the ..."I'm not a follower of Freud myself, but Conrad's story, "The Secret Share" fits in well here, too.
M wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "What I find interesting is that I find Moby Dick on the whole more racist than Huck Finn- in Huck Finn Twain uses racist language to blow the whole thing up, while in Moby Dick ..."Good analysis, M. We have to remember the times.
Everybody, I am amazed by the depth of this discussion, from Everyman's initial post on. I've been pretty busy with life, but I have been reading your notes and listening to the book yet another time and thinking how glad I am that we chose this book and that some (you know who you are) are finally reading it and enjoying it. more later, I promise.typed on my new iPad
Laurele wrote: "Everybody, I am amazed by the depth of this discussion, from Everyman's initial post on. I've been pretty busy with life, but I have been reading your notes and listening to the book yet another ti..."Great to see you. Are you listening to the librivox version? If so, what do you think? I think that it's the best book I've have from them, so far. The reader is excellent.
Patrice wrote: "Speaking of romanticism... comparing QQ and Ishmael to Adam and Eve...anyone else think that this was a homosexual relationship?I know sharing beds was common but nude? And the way they seemed to..."
Homoerotic undertones are definitely there. They're not just sleeping naked in the same bed, QQ is holding Ishmael in a wifely embrace:
I found Queequeg's arm thrown over me in the most loving and affectionate manner. You had almost thought I had been his wife.
M wrote: "But this is Ishmael speaking, not Melville. Ishmael has his own distinctive character and his own views. I don't think Melville wants his narrator to sound too far beyond the average US resident of the time in his views. So I think he's doing this on purpose."
Uncle Tom's Cabin came out one year after Moby Dick so abolitionism/anti-racism although not universal was not unusual. Not that I'm saying that Melville was a racist because one of the characters in his books is racist, just that he could have not made him racist so maybe there's another reason behind his racism.
Anyway, phrenology! Ishmael tells us that QQ's head is 'phrenologically an excellent one'. What does that mean? Well, phrenology is the science of determining a person's character based on the shape of their head and it evolved from physiognomy which was the science of determining a person's character based on their facial features - both were believed to be so accurate they were often used in trials to determine whether somebody was guilty and physiognomy/phrenology guides for police officers/judges were published to help them identify possible criminals quicker - and I had to mention that because I find it just eerie. This is all very interesting because we see Ishmael misjudge QQ based on his skin colour earlier, is he right about the shape of his skull?
It had the same long regularly graded retreating slope from above the brows, which were likewise very projecting, like two long promontories thickly wooded on top.
Frankly, I have no idea. I've found this brilliant 'Illustrated Self-Instructor in Phrenology and Physiology' on Google Books and I think that what Melville is trying to say is that QQ is full of benevolence. But I'm not so sure, Melville's description is confusing and the charts even more so.
And yes, I love rhetorical questions. Don't I?
Zeke (74) and Mark (75) both quoted passages from Ishmael in the chapel, but they seem to go in very different directions. Zeke quoted In fact take my body who will, take it I say, it is not me. But Mark quoted Ishmael as he looks at the tablets on the walls, What despair in those immovable inscriptions! What deadly voids and unbidden infidelities in the lines that seem to gnaw upon all Faith, and refuse resurrections to those beings who have placelessly perished without a grave.The first seems to say that the body is irrelevant. The second seems to say that the body is critical in that its absence refuses resurrection, which means eternal damnation. How to reconcile these passages?
Patrice wrote: "I know sharing beds was common but nude?"I didn't get the impression that they were nude in the bed. As to Ishmael, "I then took off my coat, and thought a little more in my shirt sleeves. But beginning to feel very cold now, half undressed as I was, and remembering what the landlord said about the harpooneer's not coming home at all that night, it being so very late, I made no more ado, but jumped out of my pantaloons and boots, and then blowing out the light tumbled into bed." He is apparently still in his short and whatever underpants he wears; he's just taken off his monkey jacket, coat and pantaloons, but nothing beyond that. QQ may well be naked, but if so it isn't explicitly stated.
Sharing a bed in an inn was at that time was not all that unusual, and doesn't necessarily have a sexual component.
OTOH, we also have had the landlord saying that he and his wife slept in the bed, so that perhaps offers a point on the sexual side.
All in all, I'm not sure whether Melville intended a homosexual implication or not. If he did, it would have been extremely daring for his time, and one would have expected contemporary critics to emote about it.
S. Rosemary wrote: "What I find interesting is that I find Moby Dick on the whole more racist than Huck Finn"Interesting! I think the comparison to Huck Finn, a white and a non-white on a voyage together -- is inescapable (though perhaps not all that accurate), though I assume we all recognize that HF was written about 30+years later. In considering the implied (or not so implied) racism in MD as opposed to HF, we should perhaps keep in mind that MD was written before the Civil War and before Emancipation, both of which certainly impacted the American view of non-whites. Perhaps it is not unreasonable, given the times in which he wrote, that Melville was culturally closer to the "noble savage" view than Twain was.
Off topic: Laurele wrote: "typed on my new iPad ."
Laurel never ceases to amaze me -- she was one of the first to get a Kindle way back when, she got the new Kindle shortly after it came out, now she has an ipad -- here's someone steeped intellectually in the past (a Biblical scholar, lover of Shakespeare, classical opera, and classical literature) but with such a flair for modern technology!
Silver wrote: ...it did make me wonder if something of the homoerotic nature was implied, or if it was only meant to show the gentle nature of this cannibalistic savage that at first so terrified IshmaelI think both of these things. It is known that heterosexual men thrown into close proximity, as in prison, the army, at sea, do have homoerotic relationships but this does not mean that they are homosexual. Melville may have experienced this himself on his long sea journeys.
Regarding the bed scenes, I didn't see or feel eroticism there, considering the era and the context. But maybe I was just too busy being glad that lodgers are no longer expected to share a bed with a stranger if the place is full!
Bill wrote: But then somehow I grew merry again. Delightful inducements to embark, fine chance for promotion, it seems . As simple as that--he engages in the contradiction he was just mulling over in his mind, and embraces death as the door to bliss.."
I thought this strange transition of his was quite interesting, in which immediately upon his reflections of the possible gloomy end in which my await his fate in the venture he seeks to enter into, he immediately begins to think of the glory that the journey my bring him and he takes a sort of comfort in the thought of his possible impending death. This makes me reflect by to his earlier remarks in which he reveals this his going out to sea is his solution to the alternative of committing suicide.
The sea, and the possiblity of the sea, is strongly linked to death, not just in the dangers which it presents, and the very real reality of so many who have died at sea, but also it provides Ishmael with an escape from his life. But perhaps it is in that very danger that he may be swallowed up by the sea, and that being so very much on the edge of death that it does attract him so much. The thought that he may in fact someday never return again.
In this way he can leave the choice of his life and death into the very hands of fate, thus not directly taking his own life, even as he begins to feel his despair in it, but giving himself up to chance.
Bill wrote:And he's also prone to pretty rapid mood swings it seems to me. So, I'm not sure we can take this experience of his in the chapel as having a lot of depth, ..."
I do not think it is altogether fair to say that becasue of his mood swings he has a lack of depth in his feeling of experiences, for though perhaps those moods, and moments may pass quickly. For anyone whom has suffered going though such mood swings, at the moment in which one is caught up in said particular mood, it is at that moment indeed a very deep and penetrating feeling and it is in the moment of it quite a sincere feeling which even as it passes my yet still leave a lasting impression.
I absolutely loved this passage
Methinks we have hugely mistaken this matter of Life and Death. Methinks that what they call my shadow here on earth is my true substance. Methinks that in looking at things spiritual, we are too much like oysters observing the sun through the water, and thinking that thick water the thinnest of air. Methinks my body is but the lees of my better being.
Bill wrote: I think QQ is not there to represent Pacific Islanders, or brown people, or savages. I see QQ, like the Whale, and Ahab, and Ishmael himself, as being more multi-faceted symbols then as some sort of anthropological (in the scientific sense) representation.Perhaps as The Other?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other#Th...
One thing we haven't discussed yet that looms large in the later chapters of this section is the mystery of the absent ship Captain, Ahab. The hints dropped here and there, although mixed, and especially the strange Elijah scene, leave us with a sense of trepidation about this man. I felt like Ishmael and Queequeg should have asked around a little more, but Ishmael's explanation for basically ignoring or overriding it all did make sense -- he just wants to get out to sea, not worry himself over possible complications.
But what is it that Melville is doing with this unusual way of introducing another character? All I know is that it makes one want to read on; is that all that's going on?
But what is it that Melville is doing with this unusual way of introducing another character? All I know is that it makes one want to read on; is that all that's going on?
Bill wrote: "The Pulpit. Chapter 8.I have some questions for the group about this chapter.
It's nice to see Melville, through Ishmael, engaging in a lot of symbolism speculation himself. It makes me think h..."
I really enjoyed the symbolism within this chapter as well. I thought it was quite interesting the way in which Ishmael does use the metaphor of the pulpit being akin to a ship within the sea, and how he draws in the nautical imagery for this religious metaphor. In some ways it this book makes me think of The Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Coleridge.
In regards to the analogy to ship being the world, in my perspective, I presume that the world is in fact the planet Earth, and thus I see the sea as being akin to the universe/space.
S.Rosemary: I just grabbed the quote from some google work. But I like the way Melville gives RWE his proper respect while also pretty much dismissing his philosophy.
With no spoilers, I caution everyone about drawing sweeping conclusions about anything at this point. After all, the voyage has yet to begin!
M wrote: "maybe I was just too busy being glad that lodgers are no longer expected to share a bed with a stranger if the place is full! "At one time, the choice wasn't to share a bed with another person, but to share a stable with the animals. :)
Zeke wrote: "With no spoilers, I caution everyone about drawing sweeping conclusions about anything at this point. After all, the voyage has yet to begin!"I don't mind people drawing sweeping "conclusions" (really, speculations) about things as long as they are doing so without having read ahead and therefore are speculating from genuine ignorance (which, of course, as we all know, is a totally different thing from stupidity). Sometimes it's useful to compare speculations made early on with what actually happens, and try to judge whether the author was deliberately trying to lead people into a wrong direction (as with mystery writers) or whether things were just not interpreted correctly.
Of course, if one knows (from reading ahead or from reading introductions or reviews or other comments that reveal the plot) what's going to happen, they're not speculation but spoilers.
Vikz wrote: "Laurele wrote: "Everybody, I am amazed by the depth of this discussion, from Everyman's initial post on. I've been pretty busy with life, but I have been reading your notes and listening to the book yet another ti..."Great to see you. Are you listening to the librivox version? If so, what do you think? I think that it's the best book I've have from them, so far. The reader is excellent. ..."
I'm listening to the Audible edition read by Anthony Heald. He sounds just like Ishmael.
Everyman wrote: Zeke (74) and Mark (75) both quoted passages from Ishmael in the chapel, but they seem to go in very different directions. Zeke quoted In fact take my body who will, take it I say, it is not me. But Mark quoted Ishmael as he looks at the tablets on the walls, What despair in those immovable inscriptions! What deadly voids and unbidden infidelities in the lines that seem to gnaw upon all Faith, and refuse resurrections to those beings who have placelessly perished without a grave.The first seems to say that the body is irrelevant. The second seems to say that the body is critical in that its absence refuses resurrection, which means eternal damnation. How to reconcile these passages?
I think they are both saying the same thing. In the second quote, Ishmael is saying that the despair of the survivors expressed in the plaques is contradictory to their faith that the dead have gone to a better place.
Everyman wrote: "Off topic: Laurele wrote: "typed on my new iPad ."
Laurel never ceases to amaze me -- she was one of the first to get a Kindle way back when, she got the new Kindle shortly after it came out, no..."
Only the technology that simplifies life, though. Also, once I saw how fascinated my father was by my iPod, I knew I had to get its big brother. I ordered the iPad 2 fifteen minutes after it went on the market. My parents love seeing the family pictures on it and singing along with Mitch and playing word games. Tomorrow my mother and I are going to decorate "Easter eggs."
M wrote: "Regarding the bed scenes, I didn't see or feel eroticism there, considering the era and the context. But maybe I was just too busy being glad that lodgers are no longer expected to share a bed with..."I'm with you on this, M. I also am absolutely unwilling to call Melville a racist. We can't expect writers of a by gone age to have the sensibilities of the past thirty years or so.
Laurele wrote: "I'm listening to the Audible edition read by Anthony Heald. He sounds just like Ishmael. "I'm listening to it read by Duncan Carse -- I like it, and it's cheap, only $4.95. You can listen to samples of each of their versions to see which voices you like, or in my case more often to avoid ones I really dislike.
I notice that there is a 27 minute (yes, minute, not hour) recorded version of Moby Dick. What on earth can they do in 27 minutes for the whole book? That's obscene. Melville should rise out of his grave and sue them!
Post 20Everyman wrote: Much of the language reminds me of Shakespeare, the richness and imagery. I think I recall reading somewhere that Melville discovered Shakespeare shortly before, or perhaps while, writing MD and was very much influenced by him.,..."
I read the same thing. I'll post a bit here as it might interest Everyman.
from Call Me Ishmael [Charles Olson]
Melville bought a copy of THE PLAYS in Boston in February, 1849. Melville wrote:
"It is an edition in glorious great type, every letter whereof is a soldier, & the top of every 't' like a mucket barrel.
I'm mad to think how minute a cause has prevented me hitherto from reading Shakespeare. But until now any copy that was come-atable to me happned to be a vile small print unendurable to my eyes which are tender as young sperms.
But chancing to fall in with this glorious edition, i now exult over it, page after page"
(page 39). He liked the darker plays best, esp. Lear.
I read the same thing. I'll post a bit here as it might interest Everyman.
from Call Me Ishmael [Charles Olson]
Melville bought a copy of THE PLAYS in Boston in February, 1849. Melville wrote:
"It is an edition in glorious great type, every letter whereof is a soldier, & the top of every 't' like a mucket barrel.
I'm mad to think how minute a cause has prevented me hitherto from reading Shakespeare. But until now any copy that was come-atable to me happned to be a vile small print unendurable to my eyes which are tender as young sperms.
But chancing to fall in with this glorious edition, i now exult over it, page after page"
(page 39). He liked the darker plays best, esp. Lear.
Bill wrote: "What could be more full of meaning?—for the pulpit is ever this earth's foremost part; all the rest comes in its rear; the pulpit leads the world. From thence it is the storm of God's quick wrath is first descried, and the bow must bear the earliest brunt. From thence it is the God of breezes fair or foul is first invoked for favorable winds. Yes, the world's a ship on its passage out, and not a voyage complete; and the pulpit is its prow."
From this, doesn't it sound like God is a force against which the ship is bound to sail? What strikes me is that God in this metaphor is a god of nature, neither for nor against the ship of of the church. He sounds like Poseidon, who can be invoked for favorable winds -- a pagan god.
Back around Post 40 there were questions concerning Melville and Islam.
Melville did travel. In 1849 he took a 7 month trip to Europe and the Middle East. He read the guide books.
"No matter how guided, Melville made note of the same kind of detail: types of people, their trades and cusumes, curious or dramtic vignettes, architecture, the openess or congestion of places, amenity and squalor" (p50)
"On 12 December Melville was in
Constantinople ... on his first full day in the city he managed to take in St. Sophia...a couple of mosques, and neighborhoods of several characters" (p51)
"On 18 December Melville left Constantinope for Alexandria"
"On 30 December ... Cairo...Jaffa....Beruit"
Melville did travel. In 1849 he took a 7 month trip to Europe and the Middle East. He read the guide books.
"No matter how guided, Melville made note of the same kind of detail: types of people, their trades and cusumes, curious or dramtic vignettes, architecture, the openess or congestion of places, amenity and squalor" (p50)
"On 12 December Melville was in
Constantinople ... on his first full day in the city he managed to take in St. Sophia...a couple of mosques, and neighborhoods of several characters" (p51)
"On 18 December Melville left Constantinope for Alexandria"
"On 30 December ... Cairo...Jaffa....Beruit"
Bill wrote: "The Pulpit. Chapter 8. Post 113
.If the ship is the world -- what is the sea? The world is on its passage out--to where?.."
I took it to say that, yes, the ship is the world. (And that "the world" really meant the people of the world. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son").
That just as ships that sail the seas are manned by diverse peoples with various religions, the same is true of the world (on a larger scale).
"On its passage out" ...I didn't take this to mean a necessarily set destination ('though Father Mapple would be wanting us to find our way to Heaven).
My understanding was that passage out really meant passage out...as in our passage through life. So long as we are on the ship/(so long as we are in this world and drawing breath) our voyage is not complete.
As we are all but hands-on-board in this life, none of us having the complete skill set we need to figure out life...on our own we're all rather lost at sea (as someone about had used the phrase).
How then do we make it thru life without capsizing or losing our way?
The sentence you quoted means that as the captain of ship can read the nautical maps and journey the ship through successfully, in a similar way, the Fathers and Pastors (and I think Melville would hold the same for a good number of other religons)...the Reverends have put in the years of study --- study of both the word of God (the nautical maps) and of the nature of man (the strengths and weaknesses of the ship)--- and from pulpit (at the fore/at the prow) can prounounce warnings to those on board (the ship/life) when he sees dangers approaching, and can likewise make pronouncements as to what constitutes smooth waters and fair winds (how to life a goodly life).
But that's just my take.
.If the ship is the world -- what is the sea? The world is on its passage out--to where?.."
I took it to say that, yes, the ship is the world. (And that "the world" really meant the people of the world. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son").
That just as ships that sail the seas are manned by diverse peoples with various religions, the same is true of the world (on a larger scale).
"On its passage out" ...I didn't take this to mean a necessarily set destination ('though Father Mapple would be wanting us to find our way to Heaven).
My understanding was that passage out really meant passage out...as in our passage through life. So long as we are on the ship/(so long as we are in this world and drawing breath) our voyage is not complete.
As we are all but hands-on-board in this life, none of us having the complete skill set we need to figure out life...on our own we're all rather lost at sea (as someone about had used the phrase).
How then do we make it thru life without capsizing or losing our way?
The sentence you quoted means that as the captain of ship can read the nautical maps and journey the ship through successfully, in a similar way, the Fathers and Pastors (and I think Melville would hold the same for a good number of other religons)...the Reverends have put in the years of study --- study of both the word of God (the nautical maps) and of the nature of man (the strengths and weaknesses of the ship)--- and from pulpit (at the fore/at the prow) can prounounce warnings to those on board (the ship/life) when he sees dangers approaching, and can likewise make pronouncements as to what constitutes smooth waters and fair winds (how to life a goodly life).
But that's just my take.
Bill wrote: "The Sermon. chapter 9
Does anyone else see metafiction in this chapter?
The sermon takes place in a church with a whaling theme complete with a pulpit like the bow of a ship.
The preacher is a w..."
Great post, Bill.
It was quite something how the story was nested within another story which was nested within yet another story!
[Also, I learned me a new word: metafiction. ;)]
Does anyone else see metafiction in this chapter?
The sermon takes place in a church with a whaling theme complete with a pulpit like the bow of a ship.
The preacher is a w..."
Great post, Bill.
It was quite something how the story was nested within another story which was nested within yet another story!
[Also, I learned me a new word: metafiction. ;)]
The Sermon. chapter 9
A couple of lines I really loved:
Jonah's wanting to board the ship.
"'Who's there?' cries the Captain at his busy desk...'Who's there?'" (p59).
I loved that line because it's SUCH a life question.
Also,
"Now Jonah's Captain, shipmates, was one whose discernment detects crime in any, but whose cupidity exposes it only in the penniless. In this world, shipmates, sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport; whereas Virtue, if a pauper, is stopped at all frontiers" (p59).
Marvelous!!!
A couple of lines I really loved:
Jonah's wanting to board the ship.
"'Who's there?' cries the Captain at his busy desk...'Who's there?'" (p59).
I loved that line because it's SUCH a life question.
Also,
"Now Jonah's Captain, shipmates, was one whose discernment detects crime in any, but whose cupidity exposes it only in the penniless. In this world, shipmates, sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport; whereas Virtue, if a pauper, is stopped at all frontiers" (p59).
Marvelous!!!
Racism.
I must say that I didn't notice any racism in Ishmael. In fact, I was struck by how open-minded and tolerent he was.
I don't know if I missed something important, or if it's a matter of perception.
I must say that I didn't notice any racism in Ishmael. In fact, I was struck by how open-minded and tolerent he was.
I don't know if I missed something important, or if it's a matter of perception.
Adelle wrote: "Racism. I must say that I didn't notice any racism in Ishmael. In fact, I was struck by how open-minded and tolerent he was.
I don't know if I missed something important, or if it's..."
I agree with you. I think it is a natural part of human nature for everyone to have their own prejudices (and I do not mean purely or only racial prejudices) but we all make our own judgements based on the general appearances of other people, how they may dress, or look, and so forth.
But Ishmael is able to over come his initial prejudices of QQ and look past QQ's appearance, and is willing to be receptive to the idea that there may be more to this man than meets the eye. He allows himself to see another side of QQ and acknowledges positive, good points within his character.
Bill wrote: "I really wonder how this was viewed at the time the book was published."It was probably overlooked since it's just a tiny passage and in the world of pre-Oscar Wilde trials homosexuality was literally 'love that dare not speak its name' - when 4 years after Moby Dick was published, Leaves of Grass came out, people suppressed its publication and burnt volumes of it because they said it speaks about 'that horrible sin not to be mentioned among Christians'.
Patrice wrote: "Andreea, I wonder if you could point out exactly where Ishmael is shown to be racist? I may have missed it. Fear of a headhunter carrying a harpoon, seems like common sense to me. The noble sava..."
He compares people of colour with demons/devils long before he finds out about QQ:
It seemed the great Black Parliament sitting in Tophet. A hundred black faces turned round in their rows to peer; and beyond, a black Angel of Doom was beating a book in a pulpit. It was a negro church; and the preacher's text was about the blackness of darkness, and the weeping and wailing and teeth-gnashing there. Ha, Ishmael, muttered I, backing out, Wretched entertainment at the sign of 'The Trap!'.
Also, saying that Ishmael is racist doesn't in any shape or form mean that Melville was.
Andrea spoke about censorship. My edition of Moby Dick includes the passages censored by the British publisher. (At the time there were no copy right laws.) Basically, they are less about sex than about religion. Anything considered mildly blasphemous is excised or altered.
Patrice wrote: He's also famous for saying that "everywhere men are in chains".Which is where Marx and Engels got the phrase in the Communist Manifest of 1848 from: 'Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Working Men of All Countries, Unite!', usually paraphrased as 'Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains'.
Marx's ideas about property and land ownership also stemmed from Rousseau, although he disagreed with Proudhon's statement that 'All Property is Theft!'.
Melville was writing at a time when discussion of the Enlightenment theories about freedom, democracy and reason, together with the French Revolution ideas of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, were being widely discussed, together with criticism of religious orthodoxy. The authors of the American Declaration of Independence, the United States Bill of Rights, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen were all motivated by Enlightenment principles which, of course, are part of the discourse about the Middle East today. The philosophy contained in Moby Dick was relevant then and it is relevant now, as this insightful discussion is showing.
On the preacher calling his congregation shipmates:Most people have probably already realized this, but I've just remembered this morning as I was walking to uni that most Eastern Orthodox churches have roughly the same rectangular structure because they're meant to symbolize Noah's Ark. I suspect this might be true for Catholic and some Protestant churches because the English word for the main body of the church - nave comes from the Latin navis which means ship.
Everyman wrote: "Zeke (74) and Mark (75) both quoted passages from Ishmael in the chapel, but they seem to go in very different directions. Zeke quoted In fact take my body who will, take it I say, it is not me. B..."My struggles to reconcile these two passages from Chapter 7 have produced two possible alternatives:
My first thought was that the passage Zeke quoted, from right at the end of the Chapter, reflects Ishmael’s “spiritual” belief (and maybe, then, Melville’s?) that the body is unimportant relative to our eternal soul, which represents our true essence. And, therefore, the earlier passage that I had quoted should not be read as assigning to Ishmael the belief that resurrection is not possible for those lost at sea. The “unbidden infidelities”or lapses of faith caused by the terrible grief and uncertainty inherent in the presumed death of one lost at sea would yield the wrong-headed belief that the tragedy was even more immense due to the impossiblity of resurrection of an absent body.
Or. . .
The comments previously posted about Ishmael’s curious mood swing toward the end of the Chapter made me distrust his claim of lack of concern for his body. Right after a somber and beautifully alliterative contemplation of the human suffering inherent in losing young men at sea, Ishmael says “But somehow I grew merry again. Delightful inducements to embark, fine chance for promotion it seems—aye, a stove boat will make me immortal by brevet [an unexpected, on-the-spot promotion].” That sounds like the rationalization of one fearful of his death. I don’t think we can take at face value his claim of “delight”at the prospect of the great opportunities flowing from a “stove boat.” So, I think Ishmael is truly fearful of the dangers lying ahead and maybe Melville is calling into question the way we humans confront the fear of death by belief systems which promote the eternal soul over the body.
Andreea wrote: "On the preacher calling his congregation shipmates:Most people have probably already realized this, but I've just remembered this morning as I was walking to uni that most Eastern Orthodox chur..."
I didn't realize this, thanks Andreea
Thanks Andrea - great observation! Do we therefore see the Pequod as an ark or the whale or both?
Thanks Adelle for your interesting post 135 about Melville's purchase of a copy of Shakespeare and for your confirmation that Melville visited Islamic countries.
Andreea wrote: He compares people of colour with demons/devils long before he finds out about QQ:
"It seemed the great Black Parliament sitting in Tophet" Post 143 or 144
There may be racism somewhere in the book...but that particular passage doesn't mention demons or devils or such...Personally, I just don't read anything racist there ("It seemed the great Black Parliement..."(chapter 2).
I will try to stay aware that such sentiments might be here and there in MD. LOL, and it DOES seem that each of us is reading the book through differenct eyes! Interesting.
I don't know. smile. The kinds of sentences coming from Ishmael that really struck me were like the one found in Chapter 3, "And what is it, thought I after all! [referring to QQ's skin]. It's only his outside; a man can be honest in any sort of skin" (37) and "What's all this fuss I have been making about, thought I to myself--the man's a human being just as I am..." (40).
"It seemed the great Black Parliament sitting in Tophet" Post 143 or 144
There may be racism somewhere in the book...but that particular passage doesn't mention demons or devils or such...Personally, I just don't read anything racist there ("It seemed the great Black Parliement..."(chapter 2).
I will try to stay aware that such sentiments might be here and there in MD. LOL, and it DOES seem that each of us is reading the book through differenct eyes! Interesting.
I don't know. smile. The kinds of sentences coming from Ishmael that really struck me were like the one found in Chapter 3, "And what is it, thought I after all! [referring to QQ's skin]. It's only his outside; a man can be honest in any sort of skin" (37) and "What's all this fuss I have been making about, thought I to myself--the man's a human being just as I am..." (40).
Andreea...Eastern Orthodox churches meant to symbolize Noah's Ark. What a cool piece of information!
Mark wrote: "The comments previously posted about Ishmael’s curious mood swing toward the end of the Chapter made me distrust his claim of lack of concern for his body. Right after a somber and beautifully alliterative contemplation of the human suffering inherent in losing young men at sea, Ishmael says “But somehow I grew merry again. Delightful inducements to embark, fine chance for promotion it seems—aye, a stove boat will make me immortal by brevet [an unexpected, on-the-spot promotion].” That sounds like the rationalization of one fearful of his death. I don’t think we can take at face value his claim of “delight”at the prospect of the great opportunities flowing from a “stove boat.” So, I think Ishmael is truly fearful of the dangers lying ahead and maybe Melville is calling into question the way we humans confront the fear of death by belief systems which promote the eternal soul over the body."
I don't know, I think he's just young. The church service and the memorial tablets on the wall brought him some sobering moments, but in the end they weren't enough to overcome his natural exuberance about his imminent sea voyage, the prospect of which has cheered him up from his previous depressed state. Sure, he has some reasonable fears, but they may just add an extra frisson of excitement. That's youth for ya!
I don't know, I think he's just young. The church service and the memorial tablets on the wall brought him some sobering moments, but in the end they weren't enough to overcome his natural exuberance about his imminent sea voyage, the prospect of which has cheered him up from his previous depressed state. Sure, he has some reasonable fears, but they may just add an extra frisson of excitement. That's youth for ya!
Patrice wrote: "Like the issue of homosexual contact, for instance. I read it straightforwardly as totally innocent. Then, thinking of human nature, and the way in which the contact was described, I had second thoughts. I think that's the point. "
I honestly don't think Melville is making this point at all in this particular instance. If anything, those scenes remind me of two happy young brothers sharing a large bed and having a great time together before falling asleep, as my sister and I used to do when we were kids. But maybe in our era it's just not possible to expect for such scenes to be read the way they most likely were read then, because so much has changed. Nowadays, even mentioning that I shared a double bed with my sister when we were little would probably raise a few eyebrows here and there, which it would never have done even as "recently" as the 1950's. But it's very, very difficult to go back and see through the eyes of days gone by.
I honestly don't think Melville is making this point at all in this particular instance. If anything, those scenes remind me of two happy young brothers sharing a large bed and having a great time together before falling asleep, as my sister and I used to do when we were kids. But maybe in our era it's just not possible to expect for such scenes to be read the way they most likely were read then, because so much has changed. Nowadays, even mentioning that I shared a double bed with my sister when we were little would probably raise a few eyebrows here and there, which it would never have done even as "recently" as the 1950's. But it's very, very difficult to go back and see through the eyes of days gone by.
M wrote: "Mark wrote: "The comments previously posted about Ishmael’s curious mood swing toward the end of the Chapter made me distrust his claim of lack of concern for his body. Right after a somber and bea..."I think both you and Mark make some interesting points upon this, and perhaps there is in fact a little bit of both going on.
After being confronted with the dim reality of the dangers which he is about to enter into, as well while any voyage to the sea particularly in those days comes with certain danger, it seems in whaling an extra element of danger is added than what Ishmael is normally accustomed to there may be an effort upon his part in managing and confronting his fears, by bring up those "happier" thoughts of the excitement and glory in which the voyage my bring him.
I think perhaps he may be conflicted with himself and so he is trying to make peace. While he recognizes his own genuine fear of the possibility of the death of his physical body he may both be questioning those whom take comfort in the immorality of the soul, and at the same time trying to convince himself of the insignificance of his own body in order to try and set his fears aside.
That's very well put, Silver. I think you've hit it right on the nose. I think Ishmael is especially conflicted after the Elijah incident, and that's even harder to put out of his head.
Patrice wrote: "I agree with you when it comes to children. My parents grew up sleeping 3 and 4 to a bed.
And I do realize that sharing the bed in this way was common at this time. I think it's the language with..."
One of my objections to the homoerotic interpretation of those scenes is that I don't see how it adds to the story, and if it doesn't, why would Melville put it there. But maybe we'll see as we go along if this theme does exist, if it will grow or peter out, if it does or doesn't become an element of the novel, ambiguously or otherwise. Yeah, I've read the book before, but just once, and I confess there is plenty I don't remember about what's ahead of us. I know I have a lot to learn about this great novel, that's for sure.
And I do realize that sharing the bed in this way was common at this time. I think it's the language with..."
One of my objections to the homoerotic interpretation of those scenes is that I don't see how it adds to the story, and if it doesn't, why would Melville put it there. But maybe we'll see as we go along if this theme does exist, if it will grow or peter out, if it does or doesn't become an element of the novel, ambiguously or otherwise. Yeah, I've read the book before, but just once, and I confess there is plenty I don't remember about what's ahead of us. I know I have a lot to learn about this great novel, that's for sure.
Classics and the Western Canon
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I agree totally. Before starting this reading, if anybody had told..."
Oh, me too. I liked the "drunk Christian" line, of course, and I also liked "So soon as I hear that such and such a man gives himself out for a philosopher, I conclude that, like the dyspeptic old woman, he must have 'broken his digester.' "
This was good:
"Dost thee?" said Bildad, in a hollow tone, and turning round to me.
"I dost," said I unconsciously, he was so intense a Quaker.
I think I laughed right out loud at that one- I've known people like that! Bildad really is the Quaker Jacob Marley.
OK, last one: "hell is an idea first born on an undigested apple-dumpling; and since then perpetuated through the hereditary dyspepsias nurtured by Ramadans." Yes, those, and philosophers who have "broken their digester."