Q & A with Emma Donoghue discussion
Character of Ma
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Marian
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Mar 14, 2011 08:02PM
Why was Ma adopted? What relevance does that add to the story?
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Her adoption influences the closeness she feels for her child. Learning that she was adopted explains much. That her birth mother gave her away would prevent her from doing the same. She must have always felt a emptyness of not knowing her birth mother and therefore would never think of his not being with her. He is also the only person in her life that is truly part of her. She never once thinks that his absence in her life would make it easier. It gives her live a focus.
Pearl wrote: "Her adoption influences the closeness she feels for her child. Learning that she was adopted explains much. That her birth mother gave her away would prevent her from doing the same. She must ha..."Room by Emma Donoghue
I didn't think there had to be a relevance. In my opinion, her being adopted neither adds to or detracts from the story. Had she been raised by her biological mother, would that need to be relevant to the story?
With Ma, I couldn't get over the fact that she was only 25. She had to grow up so fast as the only one to raise Jack and protect him from her captor. Her voice seemed so much older, until she was rescued. At that point her true age with all the insecurities of early 20s adulthood seemed very clear. I was disappointed with her that she didn't do more to help Jack learn how to live in the real world. I wanted Ma to be more like she was in Room. At the same time, I can see why she had the mental breakdown. To me, Ma was the most intriguing of all of the characters.
How could she do more then she did when she had to make adjustments herself. Her adjustment seem to be twofold; to protect her child and to protect herself. I'm surprised she didn't breakdown before she did.
Pearl wrote: "How could she do more then she did when she had to make adjustments herself. Her adjustment seem to be twofold; to protect her child and to protect herself. I'm surprised she didn't breakdown bef..."
I felt that by her being adopted, it somehow made it easier for her father to reject her. I'm sure, of course, that adoptive parents will disagree.
I don't think it had anything to do with adoption. It seemed that he reacted as a man, more then a father. Men who have family members that have been raped react this way
Tracy wrote: "With Ma, I couldn't get over the fact that she was only 25. She had to grow up so fast as the only one to raise Jack and protect him from her captor. Her voice seemed so much older, until she was r..."I agree. She almost seemed immature until I reminded myself of her true age, as well as the age she was when she was last in the real world. I kept worrying that she would abandon Jack once she was on the outside, trying to recapture her lost years. At that point perhaps it did become relevant that she was adopted, thus providing a reason for her to keep her child through all the difficulties.
Not all men whose daughter, wife, sister, etc., is raped automatically reject her. I network with many survivors and know that some men are very supportive while some women turn away. It's a mistake to generalize.
I'm just curious why people feel that her being adopted -> not wanting to give Jack up. I attribute this more to:a. her being a mom (adoptive or not)
b. her wanting to have company in that desolate room.
Kewannah wrote: "I'm just curious why people feel that her being adopted -> not wanting to give Jack up. I attribute this more to:a. her being a mom (adoptive or not)
b. her wanting to have company in that desolat..."
I was referring more to giving up Jack once she was out in the real world. I absolutely see your point that she wouldn't want to give him up because she is a mother, and a good one at that. I am not adopted but I would think that her giving up Jack, or not, would have more to do with her life circumstances than matters surrounding her own birth.
I wasn't generalizing since I have seen statistics that would substantiate my statement. I probably should have said there are men who react this way. Of course, there are woman who would turn away from sex after such an experience.
Marian wrote: "Why was Ma adopted? What relevance does that add to the story?"I think a lot had to be inferred. This was one of the difficulties of having a 5 year old be the sole narrator. He wouldn't give a lot of insight to the details of his mom's life, especially the hows and whys.
But I think you as a reader can put as much importance on that bit of information or not. I kind of took it the same as if they had said she was Swedish or red-headed. It's a piece that gives you a more rounded picture of who this woman was, but not necessarily a contributing factor into her actions/choices. It would be like reading the newspaper article on her--they would most likely say she was adopted, but whether or not it had any relevance would be conjecture.
[And I am adopted, so I'm coming from a different point of view.]
Tracy wrote: "I was disappointed with her that she didn't do more to help Jack learn how to live in the real world. I wanted Ma to be more like she was in Room."I completely agreed with this point at the beginning. I felt let down because, I didn't feel, she was giving Jack the attention he needed.
But then I read this part of the book: "I know you need me to be your ma but I’m having to remember how to be me as well at the same time and it’s…”
That part was enough for me to realise how damn difficult it'd be to be Ma. So many things are different for her and it wasn't until then that I started to feel sorry for her.
I'm intrigued with Ma. At first I saw that she loves her son, but then I saw the escape plans she laid out and then I thought she didn't love her son, she raise him only to use him to her advantages. But then again, when they get out, she still protects Jack and then I saw that she truly loves him. I agree with Laura, it is difficult to be Ma...
Two things puzzled my book group: First, as a 19 year old, Ma was so easily seduced by her captor with the "find my lost dog" ploy that every mother warns her kids about. We found it awfully naive on Ma's part. Second, we also found breast feeding a boy Jack's age to be a bit odd. The best reasons we came up with was Jack's need for extra nutrition and maternal closeness. Any comments to help us out?
First of all, I want to say that I think it's wonderful that Ms Donoghue is willing to talk to us about her work. It really opens up new levels of thought and conversation that would otherwise be closed to us. Any chance to talk to an author is an amazing opportunity for us readers. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us. I have some questions about Ma's character development. It seems that, while Jack is the main character in the book and therefore gets the most development as the story progressed, Ma has only a few defining characteristics. She is, first and foremost, a mother. That is made obvious by everything from her name to her actions. I wonder, though, why we do not get to see much of the rest of her personality. She is a very limited character. She loves Jack and she hates her captor, but what else is there to her, really? I know that it may be the result of having a 5-year-old narrator, but that was a choice the author made for a reason, and I am very curious as to how she reconciled her choice of narrator, which she chose for obvious reasons, with the loss of personality on Ma's part. For a book with such strong themes of kidnapping, rape, and violence towards women, it seems like an egregious oversight to make that woman a rather two-dimensional secondary character. Having motherhood be her primary characteristic seems very generic to me. There are so many books about mothers, but no too many books about women in such extraordinary circumstances. It seems strange to me that the author would choose to take what could be a very original character with experiences that no-one has ever had before and make her into a more generic protective mother figure.
I would love to hear your thoughts about this, Ms Donoghue, as well as to understand your thought process in characterizing Ma. I imagine that you had to make so many choices about how to handle this book and what you wanted to emphasize. I really look forward to talking to you about your craft.
Thank you.
Joyce wrote: "Second, we also found breast feeding a boy Jack's age to be a bit odd. The best reasons we came up with was Jack's need for extra nutrition and maternal closeness. Any comments to help us out? "
It is absolutely normal for mothers to breastfeed for 5 years in less-developed countries. And given the lack of food it was required. At some point, though, the nursing was likely more habit than anything -- a part of their life.
I think that fact that Ma was so easily drawn in by the "lost dog" story is the first defining characteristic of Ma. She was young, innocent and gullible. Nothing, and noone, has helped her grow out of that naivete due to her isolation in Room. This too, helps me to understand why she breastfeeds jack for so long, as that is what "a mother is supposed to do" when one looks at motherhood from a young and innocent point of view. It also begins to help explain the great difficulty Ma had in taking care of Jack in the real world - a world that she never truly experienced and grew up in. How can she begin to help her son understand a world that she herself has difficulty understanding?
I found the character of Ma so believable. Absolutely, she is naive and yet strong. I thought it made perfect sense that the breastfeeding continued. Nutrition seemed only a part of it. I thought it was comfort for Jack and why not. Their lives were so constrained and Ma invented a hundred routines to help Jack be as happy and healthy and creative as possible, breast feeding seemed like one in a series of rituals that helped him survive. I too found Jack's language odd at times. But, given the situation, perhaps Ma encouraged his verbal idiosyncrasies. I completely believed Ma's difficulty entering the outside world and figuring out a way to give Jack the help he needed. This book was extraordinary. I wasn't sure I could bear reading it. I felt so claustrophobic in the beginning. I confess, I peeked at the end to see if I could stand it. Then got hooked.
Nicola wrote: "I think that fact that Ma was so easily drawn in by the "lost dog" story is the first defining characteristic of Ma. She was young, innocent and gullible. Nothing, and noone, has helped her grow ..."I think she breastfed so long because she wanted him to get the nutrition. She never knew what food - and how much - Old Nick was going to bring. I think she knew that at least she could always provide him with "some".
Emily wrote: "For a book with such strong themes of kidnapping, rape, and violence towards women, it seems like an egregious oversight to make that woman a rather two-dimensional secondary character. Having motherhood be her primary characteristic seems very generic to me. There are so many books about mothers, but no too many books about women in such extraordinary circumstances..."This is a marvellous point to make and a great question to present to Ms. Donoghue, Emily. I am really looking foward to reading the response. Thank you for commenting in this discussion thread; you've articulated many of my own thoughts.
Kirsten wrote: "Nicola wrote: "I think that fact that Ma was so easily drawn in by the "lost dog" story is the first defining characteristic of Ma. She was young, innocent and gullible. Nothing, and noone, has h..."The breastfeeding didn't seem odd to me at all. My first thought as well was that she wanted Jack to get extra nutrition. Also the same reason she asked for fruits and vegetables and limited the sweets.
I was almost CRAVING Ma's point of view at times. I think having Jack's POV throughout was such a hook. The reader only got a morsel of what was REALLY happening, enough to understand it from an adult point of view and be thankful that Jack doesn't get it. Also, Ma is the most patient woman on the planet. I don't know a mother that would answer every single question and live in a confined space with her child.
My question about Ma's character is a little different. As a mother of a 5 year old boy, I was intrigued by Ma's ability and determination to educate and entertain Jack. I found this extremely interesting. Does any one else have comments/thoughts about how this was approached in the novel?
Fiona wrote: "Emily wrote: "For a book with such strong themes of kidnapping, rape, and violence towards women, it seems like an egregious oversight to make that woman a rather two-dimensional secondary charact..."Oh, I didn't see Ma as two dimensional at all. Being a mother saved her. She finally had a reason to want to survive. Rape and imprisonment gave her one story, talk about space literally squeezing you into one dimension. Jack's existence enlarges her, and ultimately provides the means for her rescue. Then, of course, the largeness of the world, the craziness of the media, and the meaning of what has happened to her and to her child all come crashing in on her and it is nearly too much for her to endure. I felt she was completely believable as a woman who had been defined for so long by her capture and regular abuse.
Jane wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Emily wrote: "For a book with such strong themes of kidnapping, rape, and violence towards women, it seems like an egregious oversight to make that woman a rather two-dimensional sec...I felt she was completely believable as a woman who had been defined for so long by her capture and regular abuse"I would like to contradict, for me she was absolutely not believable as a woman who suffered a massive trauma over such a long time. More than that, for me the whole person of Ma is not very realistic. I understand that the concept of the book implies that the feelings and the suffering of Ma has to be in the background, but her behavior seems to be very unlikely. In my work as a psychotherapist I worked a lot with trauma victims, luckily never with such a horrible case like in the book, but mainly with women who suffered incredible atrocities.Therefore I know, that the human mind is highly capable of adjusting in extreme circumstances, and of course motherhood is a very strong motivation to survive. But Ma is presented almost as a saint, always patient, friendly, even cheerful, full of energy to invent new challenges and games for Jack - and that in the morning after she has been raped again and again during the night? Even if she is the master of dissociation, even if she is able to split up these experiences, it is unlikely, that she never ever looses her temper, never wants to give up, never is too desperate to function.
After her rescue, which in my opinion is not very realistic as well, the worst and most unbelievable for me is, that Ma and Jack are able to move in her own flat after just a couple of month. I'm sorry, but the character of Ma, as likable she is in the book, must be a complet insult for every trauma victim in the real world. Therefore I would like to know more about the research for the book, specially about the trauma aspects.
I apologise for any language mistakes in my writing, I'am german.
Fiona wrote: "Emily wrote: "For a book with such strong themes of kidnapping, rape, and violence towards women, it seems like an egregious oversight to make that woman a rather two-dimensional secondary charact..."The book was written from Jack's POV - so that limited our insight into Ma. For instance, I thought her suicide attempt very strange. As she was so dedicated to Jack, I couldn't believe she would do that to him. It would be an interesting exercise for Emma to follow-up the book with one from Ma's POV.
Mod
Oh, this is a touchy one, isn't it? People have such strong and clashing views on adoption. I see it as normal, myself, having many friends who have either been adopted or have adopted. I'm the birth mother in my own family, so my partner is technically/legally an adoptive mother, and perhaps that shapes her bond with the kids in some ways but it doesn't make it any less powerful. Well, anyway, for what it's worth, here are some reasons I made Ma adopted:
(a) I knew readers would be longing for her to get back to the normal world, the happy-nuclear-family world, and when it finally happens I wanted her family to have a realistic modern feel. Having the parents split up was one way of doing that (especially since so many couples do break up when a child goes missing) and having her be adopted was another.
(b) Because in Room it might seem like her and Jack's closeness grows out of their birth bond, I wanted to show that birth is not the only way for such motherlove to happen.
(c) I liked the notion of Ma's unseen birth mother as someone haunting the novel, a parallel for Ma, a young woman under unidentified pressures who makes the very different decision to give her child up.
Mod
Hm, I never saw her father's response as a rejection of Ma, just a rejection of Jack. Nor was I suggesting that men would always react that way; look how relaxed Steppa is about the whole situation. The reason I have the Grandad react as he does is that I wanted at least one person to say the unspeakable - to voice everybody else's hidden unease about Jack as Demon Rapist's Spawn, basically. It's one of those things that generally gets glossed over in glossy-magazine stories about the reunions of kidnap survivors with their families. I suspect my deeply loving father would respond the same way if it happened to me; there's a strand of furious vengeance within much father-love, a nobody-messes-with-my-baby rage, and that love is all the stronger for it.
Mod
a. her being a mom (adoptive or not)
b. her wanting to have company in that desolat..."
I'm with you, Kewannah; I never saw Ma's being adopted as the source for her determination to keep Jack. I think almost all parents have that powerful urge to hold on to their kids, and Ma is 100% mother because the only other thing going on in her life is rape.
Mod
Re: the Dog trick. I agree she was a bit naive, but all she did was let a guy beckon her over to his truck in a parking lot, she didn't walk down a long dark alley or anything... I think the 'sick dog' gambit would have just got her near enough to the truck for him to grab her. I didn't feel the need to make Old Nick's plan a fiendishly clever one since in many cases girls are literally grabbed off the street.
Re: the breastfeeding, I have a long response to this one in another discussion strand. Basically, all those reasons, but closeness above all.
Mod
I wouldn't call her two-dimensional, myself, but Ma is certainly odd, both in how she behaves and in how she is portrayed (because Jack's is the only point of view we get on her). Far from being the typical modern mother - who I'd describe as frantically multi-tasking, running between jobs and home and other things like book clubs! - Ma lives motherhood 24/7 so that she can think of herself as a mother rather than a sex slave. So I agree that she is utterly focused on motherhood, but I'd see that as a response to the peculiar circumstances of Room rather than generic female characterisation.
Mod
I'm pretty sure I would have gone the other way myself - let the kid watch TV all day while I sat in the corner writing a novel on toilet paper! But I imagined Ma as a younger, more energetic woman than myself, who clings to motherhood as a rope through the dark labyrinth. I saw her as intelligent and (at least briefly) college educated but I didn't think she'd need any particular experience other than babysitting, to turn into the kind of mother she does: her instincts are sound.
Mod
I certainly didn't mean to trivialise the effects of trauma, Antje. What my extensive research mostly taught me is that people respond in such a wide variety of ways. We've all seen people with pampered lives fall apart while others somehow come through grief after grief. I think in the first section of ROOM there are many hints - from her flashes of rage about, say, the mouse, to her days of being 'Gone' - that Ma is not all sweetness and light, but she'd hidden them from Jack as best she can. I agree that she and Jack move into their own (sheltered) accommodation very quickly, but that is mostly because of Ma's resistance to being a 'patient'; I imagine she still has a long journey ahead of her.
Mod
Sorry, no sequel or parallel book in the works! I think readers can imagine Ma's side of things for themselves, pretty easily in fact. And I didn't want to write a novel about endless rape; I would never have written ROOM from any other perspective than Jack's.
okay, I am speaking from a tiny, tiny piece of personal experience about Ma's character. Kept locked in a room for a night, raped repeatedly over the course of the night, after twenty times, I lost count. Didn't know that could happen. The man never ejaculated. I kept imagining how that might be if it had gone on and on. So...if it doesn't feel believable given Kirsten's experience, so be it. I felt Ma was far less sympathetic once they escaped. Less sympathetic and completely possible.
I'd like to ask you why you had Ma try to kill herself. I thought it was because of the TV presenter asking her questions, hinting that she should have given Jack away - did she think herself a bad mother after that? It's something that I'm really curious about. Thanks.
Jane wrote: "okay, I am speaking from a tiny, tiny piece of personal experience about Ma's character. Kept locked in a room for a night, raped repeatedly over the course of the night, after twenty times, I lost..."You're right... I have a very, very limited experience. I am sorry for your experiences. I would have thought the book would be painful for you to read. But like you said my lack of experience taints my insight.
As for Ma's suicide attempt, I guess that suicide always seems a little selfish to me - because those left behind suffer the most. I also felt that Ma seemed to be totally focused on Jack and I didn't think she could do it to him. But, then again, one isn't thinking rationally when you make that decision.
For me, my suicide attempt was simply that I couldn't bear that this would always be "my story." Ma has gotten that fact driven deep inside her. I can believe everything she does based on that fact. I think war atrocities are different. There's a ravaging of the body and the spirit that destroys someone in a different way. It's odd. As I began the book, it wasn't Ma's experience I thought I wouldn't be able to bear. It was my own, as a reader. The space inside a single room through an entire book.
Mod
Thanks so much for sharing all this, Jane. In writing ROOM I was very aware that I could only tell Ma's individual, fictional story, not speak from everyone who's gone through this kind of horror. Some women think of themselves as 'stronger at the broken places' afterwards, some as always broken. I read a lot of accounts by women who bore children after rape: some said it made no difference to their relationship with the child, some said it came between them and the child, some that it made the child more precious. All I could do was pick the reactions that felt true to this imaginary character of Ma.
Mod
I suppose I see the TV interview as the trigger - the straw that breaks the camel's back - but the cause is much deeper: seven years locked up getting raped. It comes as a shock to most readers because we're in Jack's head and he didn't see it coming: she was merciful enough to hide most of her pain from him.
Mod
A further point: to me, having Ma recover smoothly after the escape, with no breakdown, would have risked trivialising what she'd gone through. It would have made the story too much about Jack and not about Ma.
Emma wrote: "Emma wrote: "Laura wrote: "I'd like to ask you why you had Ma try to kill herself. I thought it was because of the TV presenter asking her questions, hinting that she should have given Jack away - ..."Emma wrote: "Emma wrote: "Laura wrote: "I'd like to ask you why you had Ma try to kill herself. I thought it was because of the TV presenter asking her questions, hinting that she should have given Jack away - ..."
Jane wrote: "For me, my suicide attempt was simply that I couldn't bear that this would always be "my story." Ma has gotten that fact driven deep inside her. I can believe everything she does based on that fac..."
Emma wrote: "Jane wrote: "okay, I am speaking from a tiny, tiny piece of personal experience about Ma's character. Kept locked in a room for a night, raped repeatedly over the course of the night, after twenty ..."
Emma, of course you have to be true to the character, not to anyone else's story. I just know that as I've followed this group's conversation, my story about comes up, far more than it did as I was reading the book. Those who say, "No, this isn't what it's like..." and I guess I felt compelled to share a bit of my story because I reacted so differently to the plausibility of Ma's character. I completely believed her. She wasn't perfect, she was wonderful, she created a world for Jack. And her reactions to Old Nick, to Jack, to the plan for escape, all seemed to unfold with a weird kind of logic for me. Of course one personal story about reacting to abuse doesn't make it plausible. Just adding my two cents.
I think that Ma having a breakdown and trying to kill herself made it more real. She spent all of her time trying to protect Jack while constantly being violated. I thought it was brilliant that she explains to him that she needs to be herself because really she has not had that chance. Ma needs time to work through the things in her head. Some may have saw that as selfish, but how could she ever try to be a good mother to him with all of that in her head?! She finally had other people there to protect him, and she just let go. Totally plausible.
i agree, when i first read her suicide attempt i thought how could she do that to jack! but then it forced me to remember that she too went through something terrible, that Room was a completely different experience for her than for Jack, and that she would have a lot of healing of her own to endure. Ma did such an excellent job of creating a loving and safe environment for her son that as the reader I forgot for a second what Ma went through, and the suicide attempt helped to remind me of Ma's ordeal. I thought Ma was an excellent mother. It would have been difficult enough to raise a child under those conditions, but for Jack to look at Room as his home the way that he did, and for Ma to take the time to educate him and entertain him everyday rather than just turn the television on. I was really impressed because I know how tiring it can be entertaining a child all day. But Ma was a person too.
not sure if this was mentioned yet, but i noticed that we never actually learned Ma's name throughout the book. Jack always referred to it as Ma's other name. I thought that was interesting.
