S&C: What do you think of Severian? (if finished Claw)

[Jlawrence, S&L Moderator]

An interesting aspect of my re-read so far is my changed and still changing reaction to Severian. I had remembered him being cold but also, outside of his profession, somehow likable.

I've found this less the case this time, mostly because I'm paying more attention to what he says and does to others. One annoyance was how he claims he falls in love with every one of the main female characters (in different ways, granted, but come on).

More disturbing was how, despite his arguments to the contrary, the cruelty of his profession does leak out into his dealings with non-clients at times, as when he needlessly intimidated and frightened the fake-Thecla prostitute in the House Azure, after the illusion of her being Thecla broke. Moments like that are balanced however, by moments of mercy, as when he had captured Agia and freed her, at certain future risk to himself.

Despite feeling more distance from him this time around, I still find him fascinating for his way of viewing things, his musings (sometimes charming asides, sometimes revelations of the skewed-seeming Urthian world-view), the complexity given to his narration though multiple factors ("perfect" memory but some of them perhaps imagined; the way he contradicts himself; Thecla's memories and shared consciousness), the moments hinting at moral growth, and finally just his distinctive voice.

What do you think of him, having finished Claw?

[Colin]

Well, i certainly wouldn't share a pitcher of beer with the guy. Too flakey, not to mention him being a cannibal. I had a fondness for him as i read through (much like you did), however, as i've since returned the book to the library and have thought about what i can remember...I'm not a fan of him.

I'm a bigger fan of Jonas though, for the sparse, confusing scenes he was actually in. A cyborg-planet-of-the-apes-era-Taylor in a far future makes it much more enjoyable to hear about. I felt i could understand Jonas more from the brief history we are given than I did from the half series of Severian.

[Ed]

I've always liked Severian and still do on this second read. He's a fascinating and charismatic character.

As for being a torturer, I feel more sympathy for him than anything else; having been raised and indoctrinated from just after birth to be a torturer had to screw up the guy, but somehow he manages to overcome such ethical deficiencies as he begins to question everything he's been taught his whole life.

Jlawrence wrote: "One annoyance was how he claims he falls in love with every one of the main female characters (in different ways, granted, but come on)."

I never found that to be annoying per se. For Severian, it seems in-character and believable. Remember he grew up in the equivalent of a monastery. His interactions with women have been very limited up until he left the Tower.

[Jlawrence, S&L Moderator]

Ed wrote: "Jlawrence wrote: 'One annoyance was how he claims he falls in love with every one of the main female characters (in different ways, granted, but come on).'

I never found that to be annoying per se. For Severian, it seems in-character and believable. Remember he grew up in the equivalent of a monastery. His interactions with women have been very limited up until he left the Tower. "

Ah, that's a very good mitigating point.

The older Severian writing the story does occasionally interject with comments like "as much as a young boy could feel such a thing", too (maybe I wanted a few more of those?).

[Ed]

Severian's "tendency to philosophize in the middle of the narrative" is actually Gene Wolfe's, I think. Wolfe can't resist doing it in most every novel he's written. Try not to hold it against Severian. :-)

[Noel]

Adrienne wrote: "Ed wrote: "His interactions with women have been very limited up until he left the Tower."

I certainly found his desire to sleep with every woman he encounters very annoying, even though it does m..."

Well, you must find most men on the planet annoying then.

[Colin]

Well, maybe he is a fan of courtly love?

[Jlawrence, S&L Moderator]

Ed wrote: "Severian's "tendency to philosophize in the middle of the narrative" is actually Gene Wolfe's, I think. Wolfe can't resist doing it in most every novel he's written. Try not to hold it against Seve..."

Hm, there many Wolfe novels I haven't read yet, but Book of the Long Sun (which I never finished) is at least told in a much more straightforward way and its protagonist Father Silk, while thoughtful, didn't seem prone to the kind of abstract and generalized musing that Severian is (at least from what Wolfe shows of Silk's thought - being in the 3rd person makes a big difference). It also doesn't seem to be a tendency in Wolfe's short stories (which I *have* read a lot of), so I have always kind of associated that trait with Severian. But it doesn't bother me, I find it pretty well balanced with the narrative and interesting, for what it reveals about the world, Severian's personality, etc.

[Jlawrence, S&L Moderator]

Adrienne wrote: "Relatedly, I do think it's interesting that he didn't explicitly talk about sleeping with Thecla, but he did with other women."

Yeah, we have a handful of times Severian summons up an image of an intimate moment with Thecla (I just read another in Sword), but he never directly talks about sleeping with her. Did he possibly sleep with her and not the others, or vice versa, or does he simply think and feel about her differently?

[Larry]

Jlawrence wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "Relatedly, I do think it's interesting that he didn't explicitly talk about sleeping with Thecla, but he did with other women."

Yeah, we have a handful of times Severian summons u..."

There is a lot implied about what he did and did not do with Thecla. I suspect he did sleep with her, and she, of all the woman really had the most impact on him. He definitely felt more strongly for her. That plus the fact he has her memories with his puts her in a unique position within his mind.

[Larry]

Adrienne wrote: "Larry wrote: "That plus the fact he has her memories with his puts her in a unique position within his mind."

That's my thinking as well. It could also be some residual loyalty to the Guild. Or he..."

Could it be he can't bring himself to reveal the full extent of his how he betrayed his guild? That while he can admit he did a lot, that one act might equate with him showing how he fully put her over the guild. Of course the fact he was going to break her out, realized he could not, and instead gave her an out from all of it doesn't show it enough. *snorts*

[Noel]

Adrienne wrote: "Ed wrote: "Severian's "tendency to philosophize in the middle of the narrative" is actually Gene Wolfe's, I think. Wolfe can't resist doing it in most every novel he's written. Try not to hold it a..."

An 'inappropriate' torturer. Hmmmmm. Is there an appropriate one then? I know you yanks have a fondness for water boarding but this is ridiculous!

[Ed]

Jlawrence wrote: "Hm, there many Wolfe novels I haven't read yet, but Book of the Long Sun (which I never finished) is at least told in a much more straightforward way and its protagonist Father Silk, while thoughtful, didn't seem prone to the kind of abstract and generalized musing that Severian is (at least from what Wolfe shows of Silk's thought - being in the 3rd person makes a big difference)."

Gee, I would have said that Patera Silk philosophizes the most of all of Gene Wolfe's protagonists, but you seem to be making a distinction between thoughtfulness and "abstract and generalized musing" which I have difficulty making. As for Wolfe's short stories, I find them to be often message-driven and about something philosophically; Wolfe philosophizes in the subtext of his short stories more often than the text. Anyway, like you, I definitely don't have a problem with it. It's one of the things I like about Gene Wolfe's writing.

[Jlawrence, S&L Moderator]

Ed wrote: "Gee, I would have said that Patera Silk philosophizes the most of all of Gene Wolfe's protagonists, but you seem to be making a distinction between thoughtfulness and "abstract and generalized musing" which I have difficulty making. As for Wolfe's short stories, I find them to be often message-driven and about something philosophically; "

Well, I think the distinction is how it shows up in the narrative directly. Many of Wolfe's characters are thoughtful, and agreed, his stories often have strong philosophical themes to them, but Severian is the only Wolfe character I've met so far (again, admitting I've read very little of his other novels) who will stop in the middle of the narrative to expound philosophically at great length on the abstract meaning of something. It's the difference, from how I remember it, of Silk thoughtfully analyzing some practical aspect of his situation and making a decision based on it, and Severian *pausing* the narrative to give an extensive aside on what he sees as a abstract, general truth that's been illustrated by something he's just seen. An example I just read would be when Severian leaves a cape in a shepherd's hut in payment for the absent shepherd's food he's just eaten, and he gives a seven-paragraph aside of musings about the issue of free-will vs. a creator deity's pre-ordained plan, the origin of the universe, the nature of time, the existence or non-existence of a creator deity, and how if time is infinite angels might exist even if a creator deity doesn't.

I totally agree that philosophical themes are strong in all of Wolfe's works I've read. But Severian's first-person narration in the New Sun seems to have a stronger degree of direct philosophical asides than other Wolfe I've read, and is a strong component of both Severian's personality and the feel of the entire book. I didn't get that feel from Book of the Long Sun, largely I think because we're not always in Silk's head like we are in Severian's -- but maybe there's more of it than I remember. Maybe we could say both characters are philosophical, but it's only in Severian that we really get directly exposed to the philosophizing?

So I didn't mean to suggest that Wolfe's other works are less philosophical, just that the technique of having a character/narrator directly interrupt the story to philosophize to the reader seems unique to (or at least more prominent in) the New Sun. But I may think differently after I read Latro, Peace and other Wolfe I plan to get to!