The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Ethan Frome
Edith Wharton Collection
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Ethan Frome: Week 2 - Part II: Chapters V-IX + Epilogue
Rochelle wrote: "Here's something I found on Wharton, oddly at one of those book notes sites, so I don't know the author:She can perhaps best be described as a critic of moral recklessness, whether this recklessn..."
I like your summary, Rochelle. Wharton is such a powerful writer because she portrays her characters dilemmas and fateful decisions unflinchingly. Or might I say, starkly?
Didn't you know about Wharton's children's book, Mattie and Ethan Go For A Ride? ;)
S. Rosemary wrote: "i>
Yes, Rosemary, I, too, love the homeplace. Passionately. Beyond reason.
Yes, Rosemary, I, too, love the homeplace. Passionately. Beyond reason.
Didn't you know about Wharton's children's book, Mattie and Ethan Go For A Ride? ;) ROTFL.
How about Newland and May Play House? Lily and the Great Husband Hunt.
Rochelle wrote: "How about Newland and May Play House? Lily and the Great Husband Hunt."Huh?
Rochelle wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "Lily wrote: "I agree that we really never know the reality of Zeena's illnesses. However, we do know, a bit, I believe, about their impact, real or not, upon her life and the l..."I'm a nurse. ;-) I see lots of ill people, real and otherwise.
Rochelle wrote: "Lily wrote: "I am a bit confused on how to interpret 'Ethan might ha' lived.'"Might have lived a life with some meaning and maybe even some joy. Maybe he would have left Zeena, or at least come to a peaceable truce with her."
I can buy that interpretation. Thx for laying out that possibility, Rochelle.
Rochelle wrote: "May I call you S., even though we don't know each other well?"Call me Rosemary. I always fill out my name as "S. Rosemary" when joining sites like this, as I go by my middle name- I had no idea it was going to turn that into my handle!
Lily wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "How about Newland and May Play House? Lily and the Great Husband Hunt."Huh?"
Cheerful new books crafted for Wharton's characters from various novels. Not you, Lily Bart in The House of Mirth.
Rochelle wrote: "How about Newland and May Play House? Lily and the Great Husband Hunt."Oh man. Stop! Stop!
S. Rosemary wrote: "Call me Rosemary. I always fill out my name as "S. Rosemary" when joining sites like this, as I go by my middle nam..."Just a little joke; I know your name. I also; my first name in Linda.
Bill wrote: "When he's considering (in exultation) getting money under false pretenses and running away with Mattie, then he suddenly comes to himself and admits he can't do it. I was thinking, "Now, there's an honest (or noble) man". But then he threw it all away in an impulsive suicide attempt. How do you explain that?"
Suicide seemed like a better idea to him. He'd have to live with his guilt if he'd just left Zeena.
Now, suicide, I rarely if ever consider to be noble. It's not that choice I'm defending, even though it DOES make more sense (from a certain POV) than just going West.
No, I'm defending Ethan's choice to stay at the family farm.
You're going to have problems, Lily, if we do House of Mirth. :D
Rochelle wrote: "Cheerful new books crafted for Wharton's characters from various novels. Not you, Lily Bart in The House of Mirth. You're going to have problems, Lily, if we do House of Mirth. :D"
Okay. (I'm already in trouble re HoM! Maybe I will just disappear; I'm in no hurry to reread that thing. But be careful not to give the plot away, R.)
Fear not; it's not scheduled for the immediate future. That gives you time to change your ID. :D Do you want my first name, or Rosemary's? :D
I'd like to state again that sledding is an inefficient way to commit suicide. The chance of dying is slim. We know why Wharton chose it, but it is strange.
Mod
Please be careful of spoilers!"
Hmmm. I've never considered talking about books we aren't reading or scheduled t..."
I'd be willing to proffer that we try not to patently spoil any novel that we haven't read as a group. I think allusions to literary techniques that an author uses, or themes that an author uses or explores are fair game. Just try not say things like, "Well, you know 'So-and-So', in his novel, "Ya-Di-Ya", killed his protagonist by dropping a rusty anvil on his head."
I'll give you an example, I was in the midst of reading George Eliot's The Mill on the Floss for the very first time, and someone left a comment in a group that I participated in at the time that completely spilled the beans about the ending of the novel. I was devastated (and pretty pi**ed off too). It was an absolutely unforgivable comment, as I had indicated that I was only half-way through the book. I just couldn't live with myself if I ruined someone's experience like that. So, moral of the story, just exercise your common sense and a little courtesy, and all will be well.
Christopher wrote: "I'd be willing to proffer that we try not to patently spoil any novel that we haven't read as a group. I think allusions to literary techniques that an author uses, or themes that an author uses or explores are fair game. Just try not say things like, "Well, you know 'So-and-So', in his novel, "Ya-Di-Ya", killed his protagonist by dropping a rusty anvil on his head." ."Perhaps this is the time to remind people that there is a way to hide spoilers, (view spoiler). Two comments, though. One, it helps to say what the spoiler would be spoiling, if it's not obvious from the context. Second, I don't like to see it used for the book under current discussion; better I think to wait until we get to that section; but for other books, it may be useful. But for example, if you haven't read Pride and Prejudice (view spoiler)
Mod
Hmm, I don't know, Rochelle. My maternal grandmother, in her late-teens, went tobogganing with friends in Minnesota in the 1930s, and slammed into a tree. She lost an eye, and one of her friends was paralyzed from the waist down. Maybe a little rare, and a little hard to do, but certainly possible.
As a little boy, in Red Lodge, Montana, I sledded down a steep hill, through an intersection, and just missed being struck by a car proceeding through the intersection (the other direction) by just a few feet. While not an act of suicide, it was a near run thing to be that close to the Reaper's blade to be sure.
Mod
Well put, Everyman, and I completely concur. I also strongly encourage everyone to use the 'spoiler' codes to mark sensitive material. To reiterate, to use the spoiler coding-- before the section that is spoilerish, use the the following coding [spoiler]text that could be construed as spoilerish[/spoiler]; just replace "[" and "]" with "<" and ">" to make the html code active.
Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "I'd like to state again that sledding is an inefficient way to commit suicide. The chance of dying is slim. We know why Wharton chose it, but it is strange."Hmm, I don't know, Ro..."
Your stories don't hold water. No one died in the first story, getting killed by a car while on a sled doesn't count. It wasn't the sled. I'm quite serious about its being a weird choice for suicide. In all the newspapers you've ever read, and all the sensationalist news broadcasts, have you ever heard that someone tried suicide by sled? Maybe pills, jumping off a bridge, slitting your wrists, standing in front of a train, hiring a hitwoman, etc.
No sleds. I rest my case.
Mod
H..."
And that, my dear, is what makes "Ethan Frome" so damned special to all of us. Come on, Rochelle, don't fight it, just go with the flow. It was Edith Wharton's tale, and her artifice that is completely unique to this particular story. Couples in love have done very, very weird things in the context of suicide pacts. Anyway, I now rest my case.
Bill wrote: "Rochelle wrote: " I'm quite serious about its being a weird choice for suicide.".."
Well the whole scene is weird to me. Most lovers saying goodbye forever would suddenly get the passionate, w..."
First of all that statement made me laugh out loud, but on a more serious note, you do have to keep in mind the constraints of the time in which Wharton was writing. Even if she had wanted them to have made love, she really would not have been able to actually write about it without being censored. Though I suppose there are ways in which it could have been indicated, the suggestion of this ex-martial affair actually being physically realized, would not I do not think gone over well with her readers of the day.
Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "I'd like to state again that sledding is an inefficient way to commit suicide. The chance of dying is slim. We know why Wharton chose it, but i..."OK.
Silver wrote: "First of all that statement made me laugh out loud, but on a more serious note, you do have to keep in mind the constraints... Maybe with pickles and donuts.
Rochelle wrote: "Silver wrote: "Well the whole scene is weird to me. Most lovers saying goodbye forever would suddenly get the..."Maybe with pickles and donuts."
hahahahaha yes we cannot forget the pickles and donuts. I will have to remember them for the next picnic I go on.
Anyway, this was an early work of hers. We should allow her a little lack of polish here and there. I think you're very funny, Bill.
And blueberries...
Laugh while you can Jude the Obscure is approaching.
Rochelle wrote: "Laugh while you can Jude the Obscure is approaching."Seriously. Talk about (view spoiler)
Hey! It worked!
Rochelle wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, it becomes increasingly obvious throughout the novel that Ze..."So you've read her letters? Which book?"
No, I've read Hermoine Lee's biography which quotes quite a few of her letters.
Rochelle wrote: It's not severe depression I've ben there.Me too Rochelle but there is lot of unsaid stuff in EF which may indicate the severity. Ethan's introspective thought processes for instance. Also Zeena seems to have periods of activity and periods of inactivity and that could indicate a bipolar illness. The impulsiveness observed by Bill could be another indicator of bipolar illness.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhea...
I'm with you, S. ... We have less control of our emotions and actions than we would like to think we have.
I agree, some people can survive such a situation, others can't. I got away from village life many years ago but am still oppressed by the claustrophobic, curtain twitching nature of it when I return for a visit.
I can't say that I see 'nobility' in either staying or leaving. Staying to look after sick relatives could be described as noble but so could breaking away and making a good life elsewhere despite the difficulties, the loneliness etc. Horses for courses.
Rochelle wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "I'd like to state again that sledding is an inefficient way to commit suicide. The chance of dying is slim. We know why Wharton chose it, but it is strange."
H..."
Christopher, there must have been a little rebel in you! I got repeated admonishments from my dad to NOT sled where there were trees or down toward the road---even if the slope there was better, faster, more fun, and just begging to be sledded.
For what it's worth, I thought Wharton felt Ethan, with his log-riding skills, would have been able to hit that tree dead-on ... at least if he had sat in the back where he could better control the sled.
H..."
Christopher, there must have been a little rebel in you! I got repeated admonishments from my dad to NOT sled where there were trees or down toward the road---even if the slope there was better, faster, more fun, and just begging to be sledded.
For what it's worth, I thought Wharton felt Ethan, with his log-riding skills, would have been able to hit that tree dead-on ... at least if he had sat in the back where he could better control the sled.
Everyman wrote: "Sasha wrote: "Lily wrote: "The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide."Please be careful of spoilers!"
Lighten up! Saying that a book involves an 'apparent' suicide is NOT a spoiler - where, when and by whom is a spoiler!
Bill says: The narrator seems a bit prejudicial as to what makes a good life.We all have very different views about what makes a good life and Wharton was no exception. To me living in an isolated farming community which has long, hard winters sounds like a pretty awful life before any illnesses or accidents take place but some folks might find that sort of background attractive - Wharton clearly didn't.
Bill wrote: It never even occurred to them to make love first then kill themselves on the sled. .."
It is true that a possibly more realistic scenario would have been to have them consummating their love before committing suicide but not doing so emphasises the hopelessness of everything, of Ethan's feelings about life in Starkfield.
Wharton could have got over the strictures of the time by using symbolism to describe lovemaking, as, say, Tolstoy did in Anna Karenina but she chose an even bleaker path. Perhaps she was writing at a time when her love for Morton had not been consummated and there seemed no likelihood of them getting together?
It also fits in with the highly moral approach to life which held that you could not have sex outside of marriage. Had Ethan and Mattie arrived at their destination presumably a divorce would have taken place and their relationship would eventually have been consummated; would have become more than just kisses and longing. The act of consummation is to bring to completion, to achieve, to fulfil and there is nothing in this novel which is consummated by anyone, not even Ethan's marriage to Zeena, which we are led to believe was a frigid, unhappy one.
Rochelle wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "I'd like to state again that sledding is an inefficient ..."...and then Jan wrote...sometimes my brain gets tired trying to follow all this...:D
Jan wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "I'd like to state again that sledding is an inefficient ..."...and then Jan wrote...sometimes my brain g..."
Perhaps you could write a poem about it Jan:).
MadgeUK wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Sasha wrote: "Lily wrote: "The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide."Please be careful of spoilers!"
Lighten up! Saying that a book involves an 'apparent' suicide i..."
I don't agree, Madge. I just read House of Mirth and (view spoiler)
However, I also realise many people are happy to know the plot before they read a book. It's just, as you said a while back, horses for courses.
I don't read the introduction to a book until after I have finished and many introductions now warn of spoilers in bold at the beginning.
Bill wrote: When Mattie suggested suicide, Ethan could've said, "Mattie-if you're willing to do that, listen to this other idea I have". Hey..maybe thats was she was fishing for and he was just too stupid.I beleive Ethan more than once mentioned to Mattie his desire that they should run away together, but in the same breath he repeatedly shot the idea down, and Mattie had found the letter which he wrote to Zeena saying good-bye.
But Ethan kept saying to Mattie, if only I could go away with you I would but it cannot be done. Thus Mattie knew Ethan would never actually leave with her, so she saw suicide as the only other option to prevent herself from being cast out alone in the world.
Jan wrote: "...and then Jan wrote...sometimes my brain g..."I always clean up the nested quotes. No one else does. Mwaaaaaaaaahh!!
Bill wrote: "While Ethan follows whatever impulse moves him or is suggested at the moment, including the impulse to care for whoever is depending on him,before some other impulse overtakes him. As he's in the process of suicide, the horse whinnies and he thinks about how he should have fed him. Now, thats a distracted mind. "Interesting. But it also means he's concerned with someone other than himself and his immediate problem.Generally people who are committing suicide have no concern for the feelings of family (horse is sort of family.) It's often a selfish deed. But he's regretting that he'd forgotten to feed the horse.
Bill wrote: Maybe he's about to have a 'nervous break down', that was so prevalent back in those days.Wharton had had one in (view spoiler) Teddy had one in (view spoiler) just before this was published.
What do you think of Wharton writing a story about poor rural farm folk, so different from her other books and her own life? Madge, any clue in Lee's book as to what motivated her?
Rochelle wrote: "Jan wrote: "...and then Jan wrote...sometimes my brain g..."I always clean up the nested quotes. No one else does. Mwaaaaaaaaahh!!"
I was replying to your message 142, Rochelle. Imagine how confusing it would have been if you hadn't cleaned it up!!!
Sasha wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Sasha wrote: "Lily wrote: "The House of Mirth also involves an apparent suicide."Please be careful of spoilers!"
Lighten up! Saying that a book involves an 'app..."
I don't agree, Madge. I just read House of Mirth and....
Are you saying that if we know there is a suicide in a book we automatically guess who it is when we begin to read it?? I doubt that is the case.
This will lead to us not being able to discuss books that we have not read for fear of putting our foots in it - everything could be a spoiler for someone! Please don't tell me that Hardy describes the countryside in detail in Jude the Obscure!!
Rochelle wrote: "What do you think of Wharton writing a story about poor rural farm folk, so different from her other books and her own life? Madge, any clue in Lee's book as to what motivated her?"She was herself depressed by the long New England winters when she moved to Boston and by the puritanical, narrow life style of the rural poor in the area. I guess it must have been very different to her life in New York and, of course, she was coping with her husband's mental illness and having a pretty bad time herself.
Bill wrote:But puritans believed it was highly immoral to kill themselves also, didn't they?Yes, this was one of the aspects of the novel which puzzled me - why EW had characters from a Puritan/Calvinist background try to kill themselves. The only reason I can think of is that it would indeed have meant they went to hell and that it was a very big sin in such a community even to try. I suppose it reflects the extent of the desperation they felt about their lives.
...'nervous break down', that was so prevalent back in those days.
No more prevalent that now Bill! Indeed there is a high incidence of mental health problems now because of our stressful lifestyles. We just know a bit more about mental health and so give labels to such illnesses.
Ethan could've said, "Mattie-if you're willing to do that, listen to this other idea I have". Hey..maybe thats was she was fishing for and he was just too stupid.
LOL Bill. You bring a breath of fresh air to these discussions! Perhaps it was more than his mind that was ground down.....
Always on the ball, Lily.