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When Does A Reader Know Too Much?
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Danielle The Book Huntress
(last edited Mar 04, 2011 06:12PM)
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Mar 04, 2011 06:11PM
I have to say that it's hard not to take flagrant racism personally, particularly in a modern setting. Books are a reflection of society, but books are also an escape for me. If I am persecuted/discriminated against in my real life (which does happen), I don't want to spend my reading life being reminded of that, and I wouldn't want to validate such ideals by supporting those who promote them in their output/offering, even if it's fictional. That's not the same as having a real life world in a book where prejudice exists without validating it, mind you.
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i also agree with your comment a lot, danielle. although i don't turn my mind off when i read, in fact i can be pretty intellectual and i enjoy analysis...at the same time, it is an escapist enjoyment for me. not to get maudlin, and i love my job, but i work in a position that is both political and based in social work. so my day is filled with politics and it is also filled with many sad stories from folks who are homeless, mentally ill, HIV+, or have breast cancer...and so i just don't want to deal with issues that aggravate me on a personal level when i'm enjoying a book. i want to have a good time! and so i don't purchase a book that has an author who gives me a personally negative reaction.
I wouldn't say I turn my brain off ever. I just read books that will entertain me, and if it makes me think as well, so much the better. It's more than possible to entertain and to get a person thinking, and we can all derive meaning from various sources. Maybe some people think popular fiction is brain candy, but I'm not one of those people.I do agree with you about avoiding books that aggravate me on a personal level.
oh i didn't mean to imply that i think you turn your brain off danielle! that is definitely not what i was saying...the "although" was in relation to the fact that 'although it is an escapist enjoyment for me, i don't turn my mind off'. that was probably how i should have phrased it!i am also a very big fan of popular fiction; specifically genre fiction like fantasy & scifi & horror & YA.
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "...I wouldn't want to validate such ideals by supporting those who promote them in their output/offering, even if it's fictional."I agree with this.
No worries, Mark. :)
I choose books often on what the book is saying (as in the world view in a novel is so heavy handed that you can't get away from the author's lecturing). That's not what I'm talking about. The writer I mentioned above never put any of his racist views in his books. I only discovered later he was a racist. My point was, it didn't change the quality of the books, as a matter of fact it caused no end of trouble as he'd managed to hide it for years and then it came out after the books and the movie were out, successful, and popular. The man was (apparently, for I didn't know him personally) thoroughly "disreputable"...but he wrote a good a book that didn't show any of that.(By the way so you have to go all the way back up) I'm speaking of Forrest Carter who wrote the books concerning the character that was made into the movie The Outlaw Josie Wales. I read the books and of course had seen the movie before I ever heard of his, problems. I wasn't referring to a book that "argued for" something you disagree with. That would be a different decision.
But again I close by saying that each person's decision is of course their own. I'm only "discussing".
I see what you're saying, Mike, and I concede that it's different if you don't know that about a person. But lets put it this way, why should my money go to buy a book by a person who thinks that people of my race are worse than animals and should have no rights? Maybe it's petty of me, but I would choose not to use my black dollars on a book that's not written by someone who hates me because of the color of my skin, and doesn't even know me.
No, that's what I said, it's obviously your choice. I'm just saying that we're probably doing it everyday, just not knowing it.For example I'm a Christian and yet I buy books constantly written by people who believe that if you're a Christian you're a moron...
Life.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "For example I'm a Christian and yet I buy books constantly written by people who believe that if you're a Christian you're a moron... "I think that's different though. That's just a difference of opinion, not promotion of hate and intolerance.
I'm atheistically-leaning agnostic. I personally don't think it's very likely that there is a God, but I don't know, so I can't say for sure, obviously. That doesn't mean that I hate people who do believe.
But if I know someone DOES promote hatred towards those who do not share their opinions, I will not support them by buying their work. *shrug*
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "hy should my money go to buy a book by a person who thinks that people of my race are worse than animals and should have no rights? Maybe it's petty of me, but I would choose to use my black dollars on a book that's not written by someone who hates me because of the color of my skin, and doesn't even know me. "This sums it up in a nutshell for me. Like I wrote somewhere upthread, everyone draws a different line in the sand of what they will and will not support based on what they may find out about an author/actor/singer etc. Some people really can separate the art from the artist, but other simply can't and others are very situational.
I find that I can be situational. For instance, Tom Cruise being a Scientologist, not believing in mental illness and jumping on couches doesn't deter me from still enjoying his earlier movies (his later stuff has largely been crap). But that behavior I find it more self destructive and idiotic more than anything. OTOH, Mel Gibson ranting misogynistic, racist and anti-semitic threats to his girlfriend repulsed me so much I find myself quickly turning the channel if I even get a glimpse of Braveheart, which used to be a favorite of mine. So I could find Tom kinda 'eh' while Mel crossed to the other side of my line.
I understand what you mean, Tina. While I'm a bit sad for Charlie Sheen's issues, I would still watch him. Mel? Not so much.
Charlie might be insane, but he doesn't scare me. Mel Gibson scares me. LOLI'm the same though, MrsJoseph. I can watch Charlie Sheen. I can't watch Mel, though. I can't keep his crazy "I'm going to kill you and bathe in your blood" face out of my mind when he's in a movie. Or, at least, that's they way I see Mel. LOL
Jason wrote: "I can't keep his crazy "I'm going to kill you and bathe in your blood" face out of my mind when he's in a movie."And you a horror writer! ;) LOL
Yeah, that might stir the pot of perception a little. LOL
I can totally see Mel saying that...
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "No, that's what I said, it's obviously your choice. I'm just saying that we're probably doing it everyday, just not knowing it.For example I'm a Christian and yet I buy books constantly written b..."
As Becky said, I think it's fine to have ideological differences, but it's way different if a person believes that a person is not fit to live because of their race or beliefs. If there are writers who have those beliefs, it's pretty hard to keep those from leaking out in their work. I'm a Christian as well, but I read plenty of non-Christian writers, probably more than Christian writers.
Grant wrote: "This is a touchy subject but if following your faith's tenets makes you a bigot by not supporting or espousing homosexuality then between Christianity and Judaism there are literally Billions of bi..."Indeed!
Lol...I had my say earlier and made a friend in the process. Great discussion :)
I like Card. I like Pullman. Personally, I couldn't care less what an author's political or other views are. If they write a good book, I'll read it.
Ditto to R. Scott.I could care less what an authors personal beliefs are as long as they don't preach to me. I read fiction for entertainment.
As far as religion and politics go, I try not to get into discussions about them especially online. They are much too volatile a subject and many people use the anonymity of the internet to say things they wouldn't say to your face.
NO! I'm not talking about here! Really!
I've seen too many good groups degenerate into hatefests because of those two subjects. It's not worth it.
I come here to talk books with minor sidetracks into the whateversphere. -grin-
I will admit that I am not free of bias. I have very strong opinions on theism, and I would be lying if I said that knowing that Orson Scott Card and Brandon Sanderson are mormons doesn't make me like them a little less. Card, in particular, since he is rather outspoken about his less than pleasant beliefs. Sanderson gets some points off, also, because I listen to his podcast - Writing Excuses - and he pronounces 'wh' words HW. Hwat, Hwen, etc. I really hate that. Reminds me of the 'cool (h)whip' sketch from Family Guy.
That said, sometimes an author says something in an interview or something and I love them more. China Miéville's politics are alright in my book, and his opinions on Tolkien are ace. So it does go both ways. I know my love for Gaiman went through the roof when I tweeted him asking for his opinion on E.R. Eddison, and he said he loved Ouroboros but Mistress was the first book he couldn't finish. He knows and has read Eddison, and we had a similar reaction. Millions of props.
That said, sometimes an author says something in an interview or something and I love them more. China Miéville's politics are alright in my book, and his opinions on Tolkien are ace. So it does go both ways. I know my love for Gaiman went through the roof when I tweeted him asking for his opinion on E.R. Eddison, and he said he loved Ouroboros but Mistress was the first book he couldn't finish. He knows and has read Eddison, and we had a similar reaction. Millions of props.
I'm not certain, but I think it's Howard who pronounces the 'h' in Cool Whip and familiar words. He enunciates so much, I've got to wonder if he's got bodies buried in the basement. LOL
I presumed it was him, since the first podcast I listened to had some discussion of being a mormon missionary, but then again, I guess the other guy might be a mormon, too.
I think all three of them are Mormon's, to be honest. I'm not completely sure about Dan, but I know Howard is. I remember him talking about his missionary on one episode as well.
I don't really care about the religion of the author - as long as they don't start preaching at me. THAT is annoying, even when it's my personal religion.
Me neither. I don't like it if an author has some extreme and hateful beliefs, but I'll still read their work if it looks interesting, and there's no preaching.
Jason wrote: "Me neither. I don't like it if an author has some extreme and hateful beliefs, but I'll still read their work if it looks interesting, and there's no preaching."Yeah, me too.
I don't think any of them get preachy about their beliefs, though, in their works. Not that I've noticed, anyway.
as much as i have mixed feelings about him now, OSC did not get remotely preachy in his Ender series. a person could read that series and have no clue about the author's personal politics - except that he is clearly a compassionate person. i'm still moved whenever i think of the ultimate ending of the first novel and how it put everything the reader read beforehand in a completely different light.
That is why I bring it up here, when talking about things we know about an author outside of their works. Knowing that he is a Mormon, knowing his opinions on homosexuality and several other issues I care about, it makes me respect him less both as a person AND as an author. I can't disassociate Orson Scott Card, the bigoted asshole, from Orson Scott Card, author of Ender's Game. It doesn't help that I never thought Ender's was a particularly phenomenal series to begin with, of course, but it makes it doubly hard for me to give it praise knowing who wrote it.
You should reread the thread Alexandra.
Why? I'm rather certain Card was the topic of the first half of the front page, and I am giving my own opinion on that issue. My first post also expanded on other authors (mostly other Mormons), as well as authors I fundamentally agreed with outside of their writing, and how that affected my experience reading THEIR works.
Nevermind then. I see all I need to know. Thoroughly informative post
Grant wrote: "This is a touchy subject but if following your faith's tenets makes you a bigot by not supporting or espousing homosexuality then between Christianity,Judaism and Islam, there are literally Billion..."I'm probably way late jumping in on this conversation. buuuuuut...
REally it's not the lack of support of homosexuality that bothers me. It's the Hatred. You don't have to support it. That's your right as a human being. fine. It's the actions that follow that are abhorrent. Hate-speech, hate-crime, hurt, taunting There is a difference between not supporting and actively opposing. The former is your right, the latter can lead to genocide.
Leslie wrote: "Grant wrote: "This is a touchy subject but if following your faith's tenets makes you a bigot by not supporting or espousing homosexuality then between Christianity,Judaism and Islam, there are lit..."Oh and Grant...when I say 'You' I don't mean YOU, I mean the theoretical 'You'. I just wanted to clear that up. You, Grant, have actually, also mentioned tolerance and at least some level of support. Just wanted to clear that up.
I appreciate your clarifying your statement, Leslie, though I didn't take it personally anyways. Also there's no such thing as too late when adding intelligently to a conversation. There's no expiration date on these posts afterall ;)
I understand where you're coming from. There are way too many folks in the world who foster hatred towards homosexuals (as well as tons of other minority groups). Some are religious fanatics, others are simply those twisted individuals who thrive on creating misery and pain for others. Hate speech, Hate crime, taunting etc...all things that Should be actively opposed, most especially by those who hold with major religions. Lack of support for something that you hold against is completely understandable. However, lack of defending evil actions is not. Turning a blind eye might as well be giving permission in my mind. I can't speak for other religions, but as a Christian, I couldn't and wouldn't stand for that type of behavior around me directed towards Any group. I don't think any true Christian would. The problem with my previous statement is that true ambassadors of faith (most any faith) are so sadly few and far between. Words are just fine but actions so much more endearing and all too often the people who draw the most attention are the ones that are the worst examples.
Now the same holds true for those who defend homosexuality. Some are well spoken intelligent folks who can clearly and persuasively defend their point of view. Others simply lash out blindly accusing those who don't share their ideals of bigotry, homophobia or hate mongering. We all have our zealots I suppose.
My issue was and is that many of those who support homosexual marriage, etc lash out at entire segments of faith and declare them as a whole to be Bigots and Hatemongers and I think that's just as ridiculous and offensive as saying that all southern people are rednecks or that being liberal makes you socialist.
And to refer back to my original statement of Christianity/Judaism/Islam...how incredibly blessed are we to even be able to have this discussion? There are still places in this world whose political systems or religious sects would kill a man or woman for admitting to homosexuality or even me for not speaking strongly against it. Things may not be perfect but as Nikki said we're privileged to live in first world nations that allow us our freedoms.
I understand where you're coming from. There are way too many folks in the world who foster hatred towards homosexuals (as well as tons of other minority groups). Some are religious fanatics, others are simply those twisted individuals who thrive on creating misery and pain for others. Hate speech, Hate crime, taunting etc...all things that Should be actively opposed, most especially by those who hold with major religions. Lack of support for something that you hold against is completely understandable. However, lack of defending evil actions is not. Turning a blind eye might as well be giving permission in my mind. I can't speak for other religions, but as a Christian, I couldn't and wouldn't stand for that type of behavior around me directed towards Any group. I don't think any true Christian would. The problem with my previous statement is that true ambassadors of faith (most any faith) are so sadly few and far between. Words are just fine but actions so much more endearing and all too often the people who draw the most attention are the ones that are the worst examples.
Now the same holds true for those who defend homosexuality. Some are well spoken intelligent folks who can clearly and persuasively defend their point of view. Others simply lash out blindly accusing those who don't share their ideals of bigotry, homophobia or hate mongering. We all have our zealots I suppose.
My issue was and is that many of those who support homosexual marriage, etc lash out at entire segments of faith and declare them as a whole to be Bigots and Hatemongers and I think that's just as ridiculous and offensive as saying that all southern people are rednecks or that being liberal makes you socialist.
And to refer back to my original statement of Christianity/Judaism/Islam...how incredibly blessed are we to even be able to have this discussion? There are still places in this world whose political systems or religious sects would kill a man or woman for admitting to homosexuality or even me for not speaking strongly against it. Things may not be perfect but as Nikki said we're privileged to live in first world nations that allow us our freedoms.
Well said, Grant. Anyone who is truly faithful will never stand for hatred of anyone. That just goes against everything we stand for. I've always been disgusted by someone sowing hatred in the name of my God. It sickens me because my faith teaches love.Now, I have my issues myself. Those guys who protest military funerals? Ooh. It makes me speechless with anger. I really have no words to describe how angry it makes me.
Oh that happened down here in Louisiana about 30 miles from where I live. A church from Kansas was going to come down and protest at a young man's funeral. They ended up cancelling it and it was likely for the best. People were quite literally in arms over the situation and I firmly believe there would have been violence.
My first duty after I came home from Iraq and recovered a bit was to be part of a 21 gun salute for an 18 year old man who'd been killed in Enduring Freedom. He was the first casualty from Louisiana, where I lived at the time. It was a somber, painful occasion but the pride and love displayed by his friends and family was inspiring. I can't imagine the kind of individuals that would intrude on something like that.
My first duty after I came home from Iraq and recovered a bit was to be part of a 21 gun salute for an 18 year old man who'd been killed in Enduring Freedom. He was the first casualty from Louisiana, where I lived at the time. It was a somber, painful occasion but the pride and love displayed by his friends and family was inspiring. I can't imagine the kind of individuals that would intrude on something like that.
MrsJoseph wrote: "Now, I have my issues myself. Those guys who protest military funerals? Ooh. It makes me speechless with anger. I really have no words to describe how angry it makes me. "
Those guys make my blood boil. Which is probably just what they want. The irony is that those men and women have sacrificed their lives in part to defend the Phelps peoples right to do just what they do.
Mostly, I feel just awful for the poor families.
The Phelps are just real life trolls. If the media would stop feeding them, they'd wither and die off eventually.
Ah the lovely freaking media. I'll just skip commenting on them lest I lose my veneer of civility altogether :)
One bit of good news its that there's a group of bikers going around making a wall between them and the grieving.
Grant wrote: "My issue was and is that many of those who support homosexual marriage, etc lash out at entire segments of faith and declare them as a whole to be Bigots and Hatemongers and I think that's just as ridiculous and offensive as saying that all southern people are rednecks or that being liberal makes you socialist. ..."You are absolutely correct here. Many Christian churches are in fact open and affirming to the gay population. My previous church even have a few members that march in the annual Seattle Gay Pride parade with the banner of the church. They do this in spite of a minimal gay/lesbian membership.
I would want you to keep in mind however that gays have god thrown at them from every angle as an attack. So if you encounter a little bitterness from us, that's where it's coming from. It's not personal, merely a very personal reaction to a lifetime of spiritual assaults. Not every gay reacts that way.
I, too, will try to keep in mind that everyone is not cut from the same cloth.
I appreciate your viewpoint, Leslie and I'm glad you took the time to offer it. I do keep in mind that many gay people had God used as a stick to beat them down and it's that kind of perversion of religion that causes problems for those who are genuine adherents to their faiths. It's understandable that many homosexuals would have very visceral reactions after a lifetime of various types of abuse.
Thanks again for joining in, Leslie.
Thanks again for joining in, Leslie.
I normally try to avoid political and religious discussions, but I did want to say this. As a person of faith, I really get frustrated with the fact that people assume people who are of a certain faith are all narrow-minded, judgmental haters. As MrsJ said, that doesn't represent what I believe and the faith that I follow at all. I feel that the haters (zealots and legalists) are very bad ambassadors for religious people. Hypocrisy is a huge problem with religious groups, but I have seen much hypocrisy with the non-religious too, those who criticize believers for their lack of tolerance, but show no tolerance or open minds for believers who go out of their way to live at peace with others and sow seeds of love.That's all I'm going to say on the religious front from now on.
I think that's why I love Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series so much. It very much seems like a paradise. Yes, there are issues (and it seems like a lot, lol) but the idea of being accepted simply on merit and allowing for all beliefs.
MrsJ, I have a couple of those. I'm not sure about the order though.
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