SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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e-Book Piracy
This is especially important right now, at least so far as authors are concerned. Paperback book sales are down, way down in some areas, and if piracy becomes "accepted" on the excuse that certain books are difficult to find, many authors, especially mid-list authors, will find it harder and harder to get published.I'm fully aware that the current ebook situation is effectively a mess, but condoning piracy or enabling it will just make matters worse, not better.
L. E. Modesitt, Jr.
Since I'm willing to read in both electronic and hard copy, lack of available ebook is easily overcome for me - if I can't get an ebook I'm sure to be able to find a hard copy.I don't mind people lending my books - so long as they lend them as they would a hard copy book. You can't lend a hard copy book simultaneously to a hundred people, while reading it yourself. Why would it be okay to do that with the electronic version?
Aloha wrote: "Is it piracy if you find it on the web, which is available to others?"Of course it's still piracy. Copyright protection is extended to the web/internet, even if it's not explicitly marked as such. Check out the Berne copyright convention. Since 1989, the copyright holder has to give express consent for works to be in the public domain. Also, all creative works are understood to have copyright protection, even if a notice has never been filed.
Although I hope that members are making efforts to support authors and their difficult profession, I don't really care if others here are pirating or sharing works. I just don't think it should be done so openly, because it could put us as a group and Goodreads as an organization at risk.
I'll admit, I've been a pirate in the past. And occasionally I'll still pillage a thing or two nowadays. I make no excuses and offer no regret.
I say this up front so you know where I'm coming from.
Now then, on to the matter at hand.
I'll admit, seeing the offering of presumed pirated materials here in this group has actually bothered me somewhat. Partly because it was done so openly, and partly because I was slightly worried that those doing the offering might get into trouble(however, it should be noted, that at no time did I see it explicitly stated that the offerings were pirated materials. They could have been part of the new 'lending' ability of todays e-readers).
I think, as a group rule, we should simply ban mention/offering of e-books in this way. Unless specifically stated that it is part of that 'lending' ability.
As to piracy as a whole... I'll just leave this here:
Neil Gaimans view on piracy.
I say this up front so you know where I'm coming from.
Now then, on to the matter at hand.
I'll admit, seeing the offering of presumed pirated materials here in this group has actually bothered me somewhat. Partly because it was done so openly, and partly because I was slightly worried that those doing the offering might get into trouble(however, it should be noted, that at no time did I see it explicitly stated that the offerings were pirated materials. They could have been part of the new 'lending' ability of todays e-readers).
I think, as a group rule, we should simply ban mention/offering of e-books in this way. Unless specifically stated that it is part of that 'lending' ability.
As to piracy as a whole... I'll just leave this here:
Neil Gaimans view on piracy.
ebook piracy is murky as hell right now, much like music piracy was a decade ago. remember the heydays of napster and limewire? you could have any song you wanted, as long as you were willing to risk getting viruses on your computer and ending up with a poor quality file for all your troubles. over time, some clever ideas changed that, and it's now cheap and easy to have a good quality file through a legit source, and the average person doesn't balk at 99cents a song. book publishing hasn't figured out their sales model yet.
exactly like the napster of yore, you can find any book you want on the wilds of the internet. of course, just like those music rips were pretty crappy, pirated books tend to have distractingly awful formatting and lack such basic amenities as a table of contents. but you get what you pay for, after all.
backlist titles from midlist authors aren't on any kind of fast track to legit ebook formatting. if it's out of print and not available at your library, that pirate copy looks more attractive than nothing. but publishers pricing new, easily available titles crazily (e.g., Jim Butcher's next one is currently priced 30 cents or so higher in kindle form than hardback pre-order) is helping the pirate sites flourish.
pirating books online is stealing money from the author, which makes no sense at all if you'd like that author to continue writing. why should an artist not be paid fairly for their work? until the publishers figure out a business model that makes legit sales more attractive than the alternative, a lot of authors are in fact getting screwed. I wish that big name authors would go with the radiohead distribution model and let me buy direct from them, or else the publishers would have a huge case of sanity and drink whatever kool-aid they're sipping at baen (on which website you can buy any ebook of theirs in any format you wish for $6).
all that bla-bla being said, to answer the initial question, if you choose to take money out of the picket of someone who's work you enjoy, that's your perogative, go make that call on your own. google exists and won't judge you. but like Cindy said, being brashly open about file sharing runs the risk of getting GR in general or this group in specific busted, so it's doubly uncool.
I have to take issue with Neil Gaiman's view on piracy, at least in part. My publisher has offered a few of my ebooks, such as Flash, for free, and The Magic of Recluce for a reduced price [$2.99]. So far as we could tell, the reduced price offer resulted in far more sales than did the free offer. Part of that may have been because the reduced price was for fantasy, while Flash is hard SF, but "free" didn't seem to increase sales.In addition, so far as I can tell, virtually every book I've written is now available, somewhere, in pirated form [not always in ebook format, admittedly], but my overall sales levels have changed very little, despite a far wider web presence. This is not particular to me, either. What Gaiman says happened to him is doubtless true -- for him -- but that's because he's very popular, and authors with great popularity are limited only by exposure, while authors with less popular appeal may not reap the same benefits from web exposure, and some may reap none at all. From what I've seen, the benefits may be the greatest for the most popular, and the least for those authors with less wide appeal. The problem with this is that such wide-spread availability, especially through piracy, may result in such "democratization" of book selling/reading that it creates greater sales and exposure of popular authors and less profit for those not so popular, resulting in less choice for readers.
This is not a self-serving rationalization, because I appear to be in that middle ground where it appears that I neither benefit greatly, as does Neil, from "piracy," nor do I appear to suffer greatly from it.
L. E. Modesitt, Jr.
No one has mentioned what a PITA DRM is to the consumer. I wanted to get a friend's book in audio format, but it's only available via Audible which puts DRM on their files so I can't play it. Sale lost.I legally downloaded two library books the other day from another author. I can listen to one in my car, but not the other. Do you know how frustrating that is?
Most Kindle books are DRM protected. I am not going to spend hundreds of dollars more on another device to play a DRM file when I have perfectly good device, a Sony Ereader, which I already paid for to view ebooks on. In most ways, the Sony is a better fit for me than the Kindle, but I find it frustrating that some books are tied to proprietary platforms.
If I can't play it on my car CD player or Sony Ereader, the author & publisher lost a sale - their loss. Fortunately, I have plenty of books available to read or listen to.
When I like an author, I buy their books new & tend to get them all. (I'm looking at about 10' worth of L.E. Modesitt Jr. books right now.) I already had a full bookcase of Roger Zelazny's books, but still spent over $300 in the past couple years buying 7 volumes of his collected works & a rare, limited edition he did with Bode. The point being, I don't mind spending some money on my hobby/addiction. I do mind being treated like a criminal rather than a customer.
L.E. wrote: "In addition, so far as I can tell, virtually every book I've written is now available, somewhere, in pirated form [not always in ebook format, admittedly]"
Just wondering...what other pirated format? Do you mean an actual physical copy?
Also, I'm curious to hear from you and any other Authors in the group. What would be your ideal solution to ebook piracy? Cheaper legal ebooks? Radiohead style direct sales? Something else completely?
Just wondering...what other pirated format? Do you mean an actual physical copy?
Also, I'm curious to hear from you and any other Authors in the group. What would be your ideal solution to ebook piracy? Cheaper legal ebooks? Radiohead style direct sales? Something else completely?
PDF files,scanned and cleaned-up copies on various Torrent sites, readable off any computer... Technically, I suppose those qualify as eBooks, but they're often not in given proprietary formats from what I can tell, and many of my older books were available in such formats before the publisher or Amazon had ever even created an ebook format... even when those books were still in print and available in paperback.There really isn't an ideal solution. The closest thing I'd like to suggest is a common ebook format compatible with a wide range of readers, but with some form of code that prevents copying -- or allows copying but destroys the "original." Unfortunately, the technology is such that such codes would be worse than useless and would be regarded with the same scorn as DRM systems. In effect, anything that would "protect" an author would be regarded as invasive or proscriptive and would invite greater hacker ingenuity. The only real protection an author has is the honesty of readers.
Regardless of what many ebook readers claim, I don't really see "cheaper" ebooks as a total solution. Most authors make 80% of their royalties on a book in the first two years, and for many of us, we make less in royalties on a new ebook than a new hardcover. I can see, if you will, $3-4 ebooks for books that have been in print for over 2-3 years, because that would equate roughly to the royalty on paperbacks, and frankly, digital copies might well outlast a well-thumbed paperback.
There's too much "noise" on the internet for direct sales to be effective or remunerative for most authors. If you look closely, the authors most able to benefit from direct web sales are those who already have an established reader base -- and that reader base was established through existing publishing channels. Oh... I can name a handful of authors who established themselves independently, and did so well, but most authors have neither the time nor the expertise [or the web-personality] to do that from scratch.
L. E. Modesitt, Jr.
L.E. wrote: "PDF files,scanned and cleaned-up copies on various Torrent sites, readable off any computer... Technically, I supposed those qualify as eBooks, but they're often not in given proprietary formats f..."
Ah, PDF files. Yeah, those actually might as well be considered an ebook format at this point. Most e-readers nowadays can read pdf formats. And for those that can't, there are a plethora of options for conversion to a more suitable format.
Also, I agree that any drm system would be worse than useless. Technology advances, but the pirates out there will advance just as fast, or even faster. Look at Apple, they put out updates for their firmware and within days(weeks) a new hack is available to root their systems. Same goes for just about any other device, game, or music available.
DRM will never, ever be a solution. All it will be is a hindrance and turn-off to the average consumer. I just wish companies would realize that already and move on to something worthwhile.
L.E. wrote: "Regardless of what many ebook readers claim, I don't really see "cheaper" ebooks as a total solution. Most authors make 80% of their royalties on a book in the first two years, and for many of us, we make less in royalties on a new ebook than a new hardcover. I can see, if you will, $3-4 ebooks for books that have been in print for over 2-3 years, because that would equate roughly to the royalty on paperbacks, and frankly, digital copies might well outlast a well-thumbed paperback. "
Why would an author make less on a new ebook than a new hardcover? Also, how do the prices on your ebooks get set?
I've been a bit confused lately when I see an ebook that costs more than the hardcover of a book, and would love some explanation.
L.E. wrote: "There's too much "noise" on the internet for direct sales to be effective or remunerative for most authors. If you look closely, the authors most able to benefit from direct web sales are those who already have an established reader base -- and that reader base was established through existing publishing channels. Oh..."
Maybe authors need to change? Be able to exploit the web for all it's worth, or simply cease being an author?
Or maybe the publishing business model itself needs a change?
I personally don't know what the answer is to any of this. I'm just enjoying the discussion.
Feel free, as always, to ignore me ;)
Ah, PDF files. Yeah, those actually might as well be considered an ebook format at this point. Most e-readers nowadays can read pdf formats. And for those that can't, there are a plethora of options for conversion to a more suitable format.
Also, I agree that any drm system would be worse than useless. Technology advances, but the pirates out there will advance just as fast, or even faster. Look at Apple, they put out updates for their firmware and within days(weeks) a new hack is available to root their systems. Same goes for just about any other device, game, or music available.
DRM will never, ever be a solution. All it will be is a hindrance and turn-off to the average consumer. I just wish companies would realize that already and move on to something worthwhile.
L.E. wrote: "Regardless of what many ebook readers claim, I don't really see "cheaper" ebooks as a total solution. Most authors make 80% of their royalties on a book in the first two years, and for many of us, we make less in royalties on a new ebook than a new hardcover. I can see, if you will, $3-4 ebooks for books that have been in print for over 2-3 years, because that would equate roughly to the royalty on paperbacks, and frankly, digital copies might well outlast a well-thumbed paperback. "
Why would an author make less on a new ebook than a new hardcover? Also, how do the prices on your ebooks get set?
I've been a bit confused lately when I see an ebook that costs more than the hardcover of a book, and would love some explanation.
L.E. wrote: "There's too much "noise" on the internet for direct sales to be effective or remunerative for most authors. If you look closely, the authors most able to benefit from direct web sales are those who already have an established reader base -- and that reader base was established through existing publishing channels. Oh..."
Maybe authors need to change? Be able to exploit the web for all it's worth, or simply cease being an author?
Or maybe the publishing business model itself needs a change?
I personally don't know what the answer is to any of this. I'm just enjoying the discussion.
Feel free, as always, to ignore me ;)
Kristine Kathryn Rusch has been running a fascinating series about the midlist writer and the current changes in publishing. Highly useful for both established writers and new starters and certainly if I had her backlist I'd be doing exactly what Ms Rusch is doing: checking what rights I hold, and publishing that backlist myself, DRM free.That way, if people are considering pirating a book, it's not going to be because it's not available for sale, or they can't get it in the format they prefer.
http://kriswrites.com/2011/02/10/the-...
Another thing not mention is geographic restrictions. Those of you who live in the US might not even see it as a problem, but for most people outside the US it makes it physically impossible for readers to buy legitimate copies of e-books.I've got loads of sci-fi authors I like to read and only about 10% of them have e-books available to my region. It has become so much of an issue for me that I've reverted to buying mostly paperbacks again since it's so much hassle to actually find something you are ALLOWED to buy.
From that viewpoint I can understand why someone would pirate when they have no other legitimate way to get the e-book.
That is very true Crusader. It was hard enough just to get my eReader because they don't sell them outside the US.
Thanks for the link, Andrea. That was an interesting post. C.J. Cherryh and her colleagues Lynn Abbey and Jane S. Fancher are doing the same thing - e-publishing their backlist, and also offering new titles. Her blog is here and she talks about it sometimes, but she also has links to other writers who are publishing their own backlist on the left side of the page.
I read mostly ebooks these days, because in the counties in Europe that I have lived in these past six years there are hardly any English bookstores to get paperbacks from. Back when I lived in America I bought all hard copies and I have over twenty storage boxes of books. So, trying to then find an ebook online that I can legally read on my iphone 3g (so iBooks doesn't work) is not easy. On top of that, I have had it so often that I bought a book due to great reviews and then it turned out to be horrible.
These factors all lead to what I do today: I read pirated versions mostly, and if it's a great book I will buy a copy off of Amazon and have it shipped to my parents. If it sucks at least I haven't lost any money and supported an author that I hate.
I'm sure a lot of people have a problem with my method, but until the ebook situation gets changed to reflect the rest of the world outside of the US, I will do it this way.
Also, I want to mention sharing: there are other people in my boat and if I have an ebook I want to help them out since I am in a position where I can. Just because I offer a book doesn't mean that people need to accept my offer. And I would never ever make a profit from the ebooks I have; I share them because I love reading and I like to have other people love it too; not because I hate an author and want to take their profits.
(sorry for spelling errors, I typed this on my iPhone.)
Get Kindle for iPhone ... that way you can download from the Massive numbers of Kindle books.
Book Depository ships free internationally. So does Better World Books, if you buy from them as opposed to their marketplace sellers.You may say you're not trying to hurt authors, but there's no guarantee that people you give a pirated ebook to will buy the book later if they like it. Or that they are in the same situation as you. Perhaps they are in the States and could easily buy a copy. Or even get one from the library.
Also, if someone in Europe or Australia just pirates without seeming to buy herself a copy, there's no data trail created to show publishers that there's an interest in those books in other markets. (Having a copy shipped to America does nothing for this, I suspect.)
I realize that it's a pretty sure thing that no one will change their mind or behavior because of this thread. And I'm not losing any sleep because there are pirates out there. But personally, I would be happier if it weren't openly condoned here.
L.E. wrote: "PDF files,scanned and cleaned-up copies on various Torrent sites, readable off any computer... Technically, I suppose those qualify as eBooks, but they're often not in given proprietary formats fr..."They certainly are ebooks. I have some of them & the older ones are not very readable. They are a nice way to look up a phrase or scene. Before so many sites started making preview text available, they were a good way to get an idea of the author's style. I don't think they've ever been a threat to sales, though.
Most of them were scanned in page by page & run through an OCR program. The older ones are pretty horrible as OCR made a lot of mistakes. They're about on par with some of Ace's reprints around 1990. This Immortal is one Ace edition I remember as being particularly full of typos & I believe the pdf I have was scanned from that edition. If I didn't almost know the book by heart, I don't think I could read it.
I don't know if this has been mentioned since I've been popping in and out of lists, but unknown authors have gone with the flow and use the system as a way of promoting their work. They have an intro. book, such as the first in a series, available for free at book sharing sites to get people hooked on their work.
Sherri wrote: "...I've done a fair bit of reading and research about e-books in the last couple of years, and it is good to remember that the larger portion of the book's cost is NOT the paper and the printing. John Scalzi has discussed the issue in great depth on his blog, among others. Yes, it's a hot issue that rises from time to time..."I've read that the costs of producing a paper book are very expensive - most before ebooks were around, though. One put the cost of printing, storing & delivering hard copies of a book at 40% when all was said & done. This included formatting, printing, paper, overstocks (covers being returned), shipping, storage, & advertising. Apparently those special racks in the book stores cost thousands.
Allowing that an ebook has formatting & advertising costs, that still leaves off overstocks, paper, storage, & shipping. (Actually, one publisher actually said storage costs for ebooks was a factor. I fail to see how, though.)
It seems to me the publisher's arguments are self-serving. It simply depends on how much they are charging for a which sort of book or when they're negotiating royalties with the author.
I suppose I better prefix this by saying I've never read a pirated ebook, but:I'd also like to point out the absurdity in not offering ebooks internationally. I live in Sweden, but I read books written in English in English. I managed to buy one ebook from waterstones.co.uk before they sent me an email saying they were very sorry but they noticed my credit card was registered outside the UK and they could no longer sell me ebooks. I'm still allowed to buy hardcovers and paperbacks from Waterstones.co.uk with my Swedish credit card, but I'm not allowed to buy ebooks! How absurd is that? The one format that lends itself to be sold internationally (no shipping and instantaneous access), I'm not allowed to buy!
The only ebooks the Swedish online bookstores offer are from Swedish publishers, so I can't get a hold of a lot of international ebooks. I'm not allowed to use amazon.co.uk, but I am allowed to buy ebooks for Kindle on amazon.com (not all titles that are offered to the US market though), but that's it.
I can understand not wanting to spread pirated books via Goodreads, but what about lending books? The Kind allows for lending for some titles.
A few words of caution...When you buy an ebook, you're not really purchasing product - you're actually licensing the content.
This means that you have to follow the terms of the license. No matter how you try to rationalize any other behavior, you are legally and morally obligated to adhere to the terms of the agreement. It's like a contract, and you agreed to it when you purchased the book.
So you don't have the right to decide to do something differently. The license says that you don't own the book, and restricts you from selling or making copies for other users.
It may be convenient to say that you'll delete your copy when you pass it along to another user (similar to a paperback, where only one copy is in existence at any one time). But you are not allowed to do that. Even if 90% of all ebook readers are that trustworthy, what about the other 10%? The loss of sales will certainly offset the legal costs for big publishers to take admitted transgressors to court. I'd be very reluctant to announce on goodreads (or any other forum) that I am willing to share ebooks on certain terms, arbitrarily decided by myself. It doesn't matter how comfortable I am with the self-determined moral criteria - the law says it's wrong.
Does this mean I agree with ebook publishers? Absolutely not! I actually spend quite a bit on ebooks (at least $100 every couple months), but I've now restricted myself to DRM-free ebooks. I find them on Baen's website, in multiformat version from Del Rey and Bantam (Random House) on fictionwise.com, and a few others here and there.
Using Calibre, I can quickly convert any DRM-free ebook to the format of my choice.
There are ways that you can strip the DRM from ebooks (don't ask me - not an expert) and then you can use Calibre to convert those books too. Again, this is comfortable for the end-user, but it's not right. Sure, as a customer you feel justified in stripping the DRM so that your purchase remains viable for years to come. (Even if ebook formats and readers change, your purchase can be locked in rtf which has been very stable for over 20 years now.) But it's still not legally right, even if you feel it's morally right. When you bought the DRM-protected book, you entered into a contract which specifically restricted you from converting the book.
And this doesn't even address the international concerns... As a Canadian, I've found in the past year that I can't even try to buy many of the DRM-protected books any longer. They are not for distribution outside the USA, apparently. But I don't care... there are more than enough books for me to read put out by publishers who don't use DRM. (And by authors who release ebooks under a Creative Commons License.)
All of these factors play into the hands of the pirates, and many reasonable and moral people (present company on goodreads included) might get frustrated and rationalize some alternative behaviors. Bottom line - if you didn't license it from the publisher or author, then you don't have the rights to view the book in that format. Buying the 8-track years ago didn't qualify you for the cd version when it came out. Likewise buying the paperback doesn't entitle you to the ebook file. The publishers using DRM-free formats are really deeply in tune with the reading public here, folks, and we should really support them as much (and as often) as we can.
It would be interesting to see how many "pirate" torrents still carry Baen ebooks. The price is cheap ($6), and the customer has the satisfaction of knowing that they're supporting the author and publisher of a genre they love, while also feeling very confident that they can enjoy the ebook for years to come despite any unanticipated future changes in file formats or reader technology.
Buy DRM-free as often as you can. Never buy DRM-protected books. (And if you do, then you've been warned. By purchasing the book, you enter an agreement, and you don't even have the right to whine afterwards...)
It has never occurred to me to pirate a novel. However, it has occurred to me to remove the DRM, so that I can get an eBook I have bought and save as plain text so that it will be indexed and searching a book will be quick enough to be reasonable. And, so that I can combine multiple books in a series into one file making searching for something like "Black Rose Prophecy" easier.
Sounds completely reasonable - you bought the book, and by stripping the DRM you can make it more useful for your own purposes. You're not planning to share it - you just want to make it easier to search, make it more adaptable in case you switch to a different reader, etc.But it's still wrong, and specifically restricted in the agreement you entered when you bought the book.
I agree that it's very tempting. And you feel like it's your property because you spent your money on it. But it's not your property - you bought a license, not a "good".
So another word of caution: I'd avoid speaking out on any forum on goodreads about any known activities of stripping the DRM from a protected book.
The DRM thing is actually something that's made me reluctant to get on the ebook wagon. Sure, there are ways to remove them - but I shouldn't have to deal with that. And yes, there's Baen - but I think there's one author they publish who's on my buy-everything list, and maybe a handful of titles other than that that I'd be interested in owning in e-form.If you want to search inside a book, Google Books and sometimes Amazon will allow you to legally search the text of a book you don't own. I've done this a lot.
I'm loving the discussion here, but wanted to point out that folks still need to speak to the original topic:
Brad wrote: "The offering of hard to find e-books or requesting hard to find e-books ... is it piracy? Should we, as a group, crack down on such offers? Is it nor really a big deal? Have your say. "
That way we can get a rule in place for it, if need be.
Brad wrote: "The offering of hard to find e-books or requesting hard to find e-books ... is it piracy? Should we, as a group, crack down on such offers? Is it nor really a big deal? Have your say. "
That way we can get a rule in place for it, if need be.
I read the occasional ebook or estory on my computer. I don't have a reader...visualize a pouty face with the bottom lip sticking out and envy in the eyes. -grin-Other than not liking to read at my computer, what stops me from getting more ebooks is the price. There is no way I am going to pay as much (and sometimes more) than a paper book costs. The pricing makes absolutely no sense to me. An ebook should be less expensive. I can't imagine paying more than $2 or $3 for one.
As far as piracy goes, it happens, it will continue to happen. The laws will eventually get organized and people will get caught and punished.
All we can do is as has been mentioned here, just do what we can as individuals and not encourage or add to it.
Side note, Neil Gaiman is a great writer but sometimes his views and opinions get WAY out there. I feel he has become a bit of an elitist in his views. A bit of a swollen ego. He does write some great stories though. It's his non-fiction I take with a grain of salt.
All of this boils down to the First Sale Doctrine, which applies to 'material objects' - physical things you can hold in you hand and can be re-sold. See this article and the white paper links at the bottom for more information:
http://marilynnbyerly.com/firstsaledo...
Brad wrote: "The offering of hard to find e-books or requesting hard to find e-books ... is it piracy? Should we, as a group, crack down on such offers? Is it nor really a big deal? Have your say. "My vote is yes, we should crack down on any such offers and requests to share ebooks, whether hard-to-find or not.
Likewise, we should crack down on any offers and requests to strip the DRM from any protected ebooks.
I agree with Jon's comment (message 32).Those arguing for sharing ebooks need to acknowledge the fundamental difference between purchasing a "good" (a material physical object) and licensing some content.
There is no way to get around the illegality of openly contravening the licensing agreement. You can't just rationalize it away by referring to what's convenient to you.
Also, you can't set up other arbitrary conditions to ensure that you do no harm to the author and publisher - you don't get to make that call after you've entered into a licensing agreement.
Now, there's a lot of freedom to what you do in your own home and what you access on other websites. But goodreads is not sheltered - you are in the open, your comments are recorded, and your identities are hardly secret. While there may be several people in the group that do share ebooks and do strip DRM, they should not think of this group as being an appropriate forum to openly discuss (and try to justify) those activities.
I'm really SOLIDLY in agreement with getting rid of DRM and allowing some sharing in hopes that any lost sales will be offset by the upsurge in interest in a particular book and/or author and/or publisher. Like Cory Doctorow, I firmly believe that will be the way of the future. But I don't get to make the call, so I'll quietly wait until the new market reality precipitates this revolution.
In the meantime, copyright law exists and it is sufficient to prosecute anybody who openly shares licensed content, or strips DRM so that licensed content can be modified into formats that are more easily shared.
Addressing the issue at hand.I think preventing sharing of pirated ebooks would be a good thing.
Making use of the "sharing" facilities on certain ebook readers should be allowed, provided that it was a legitimate purchase. Since Amazon (or whichever publisher) can control if this is allowed for the specific ebook, it should be their problem to restrict sharing should they wish to do so.
I am certainly leaning towards making it a policy of the group (of course, our other group moderators will need to weigh in as well) that eBook piracy communication is frowned upon, and that those using our group to make offers and requests could first be asked politely to refrain (which shouldn't be all that difficult, because they can always make the offers and requests -- if they feel the need to continue -- through personal messages to members), and if one chooses to continue after repeated requests they could be banned from the group.
I wouldn't be opposed to offers to lend to one person, provided there was a legal purchase the book was genuinely loaned to one person at a time, rather than given away to all inquirers.Nor would I be opposed to someone giving away a book that was truly in the public domain, such as those provided by Project Gutenberg. Or ones that the author and/or publisher have agreed may be freely distributed, such as Cory Doctorow's books. But those seem like bright line exceptions to me ... others may differ.
Since some people are genuinely ignorant of the copyright issues surrounding ebooks, it certainly can't hurt to explain to people if they offer around ebooks.Realistically there is practically no book which can't be located in hard copy, whether new or used through AbeBooks. If a book isn't available in ebook form, then the solution is a dead tree book.
As an original musician who is promoting his material on line, it hurts when you run into some unknown web-site that has stolen your songs and is either selling them or using them for they're own purpose. Its no different with literature especially E-Books. I would hate to think someone is copying my new horror novel "The Spell of Zalanon" and whoring it around the web. What goes around comes around and these days its coming around a little faster. Johnny Flora
Andrea wrote: "Since some people are genuinely ignorant of the copyright issues surrounding ebooks, it certainly can't hurt to explain to people if they offer around ebooks..."As hard as it is to imagine, that's a fact. I had to stop people from emailing ripped songs to each other at work a few years back. I thought I lived under a rock.
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Someone pointed out a while back that the law isn't very clear on this subject. It is clear that you can't pass around copies of books, no matter how they're made. Talking about swapping copyrighted files shouldn't be allowed on a public board any more than it would be right to discuss copying a physical book & passing out copies, IMO.
Personal use is more of a gray area. It's not illegal to break DRM for fair use, only if it impinges on copyright.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/07...
It's also legal for me to cut up my books, scan them & keep them electronically - just like it was legal for me to copy my 8 tracks & LP's to cassette & then rip them to mp3's. Yeah, the quality suffered some, but I have a tin ear, so I don't care. It is not legal for me to give any of those files to anyone else, though.
Brad wrote: "I am certainly leaning towards making it a policy of the group (of course, our other group moderators will need to weigh in as well) that eBook piracy communication is frowned upon, and that those ..."
Sounds like a plan to me.
Go light a fire under the other mods and have them chime in :P
Sounds like a plan to me.
Go light a fire under the other mods and have them chime in :P
I would say if the mentioning of sharing or lending an ebook in a group discussion detracts from the overall group experience then we should make a rule against it.The point of the group is to talk about books and to collectively share our experiences about a book, if ebook piracy is negatively impacting the member experience then we should just forbid it.
I'm a stickler for the rules and not just the letter of the law, but the intent. The intent is to make sure people get paid for their work. Heck, I rarely lend books, if I think someone will really like a book I tell them about it or I buy them a copy as a present.DRM doesn't bother me. It doesn't interfere with me using the book/music and I'm using popular enough programs that either they will be around virtually forever or if they do get replaced with better tech, have a large enough customer base that having a translation from the old format will be a viable selling point for the new tech.
Oh did the question about "why would the author get paid less on ebooks" get answered. It all boils down to contracts. The contract breaks down the different types of media and sets percentages for each. So (pulling numbers of out a hat) the author might get 15% for hardbacks, 12% for paperbacks, 10% for electronic/other.
Should we, as a group, crack down on such offers?
Yes - piracy happens anyway and certainly doesn't need goodreads to condone or advertise it.
Brad wrote: "The offering of hard to find e-books or requesting hard to find e-books ... is it piracy? Should we, as a group, crack down on such offers? Is it nor really a big deal? Have your say. ..."I think you have to Brad, if for no other reason than the protection of Goodreads and the Group's mods and owner. Has anyone looked to see if GR has a policy on this, i.e., publishing links to pirated eBooks? I would be surprised if they didn't.
Bryan wrote: "A few words of caution...
When you buy an ebook, you're not really purchasing product - you're actually licensing the content.
This means that you have to follow the terms of the license. No matter how you try to rationalize any other behavior, you are legally and morally obligated to adhere to the terms of the agreement. It's like a contract, and you agreed to it when you purchased the book. ..."
Removing DRM appears to be illegal, though I do not think it has been appropriately tested in the courts relative to the concept of 'fair use'. I used to keep up with this, but have not done for several years.
As for the moral or ethical concerns, that is a personal decision. I do not consider it morally or ethically wrong and never will regardless of the law, ie, fair use. Don't get me started on the concept of implicit licenses being the same as a negotiated contract.
Unfortunately, I have never been able to strip Kindle or iBooks DRM, which is which I 1° use. I'm not paranoid about talking about such things in public forums. The new Kindle does index the books. I do not think iBooks indexes, at least searching seems really slow.
Bryan wrote: "A few words of caution...When you buy an ebook, you're not really purchasing product - you're actually licensing the content.
This means that you have to follow the terms of the license. No ..."
Bryan has hit the nail on the head. A lot of people want to rationalize illegal behavior, but it's nothing more than rationalization. Stealing is stealing, be it a piece of candy or the embezzlement of several million dollars.
As a publisher of eBooks (akwbooks.com) we realize that DRM is a royal pain to readers, so we don't use it. We also offer several of the most popular formats so you don't have to convert them. But if you have several devices (of your own, not your buddy's) that require different formats, we hereby give you permission to convert a book you've purchased from us (or one of our resellers) so you can read it on all of them (or to migrate to a new platform).
In return for your honesty, we'll try to keep our prices down so your reading budget will go as far as possible.
If you're worried about the possibilities of getting stuck with a bad book, Xini, your rationalization for stealing doesn't hold water. Most resellers (Amazon, Smashwords, AKW Books) allow you to read a portion of the book for free. We generally put up 20% (1/5th) of the book in pdf format on our site and allow our resellers to do the same. If you can't make a decision with that much information, you'd be better off trying a different book.
Andrea wrote: "Since some people are genuinely ignorant of the copyright issues surrounding ebooks, it certainly can't hurt to explain to people if they offer around ebooks.Realistically there is practically ..."
Actually, many authors are skipping the paper chase and going directly to eBooks (for a variety of reasons). Very few of our authors also publish in the paper world -- and it's not because they're substandard writers; some are better than most of what comes out of New York these days.
Even some of the big name paper authors are experimenting with eBook only novels. Their motivations are varied (a bigger share for the author, lower prices for their fans, a desire to be "green", less hassle than the paper world, no returns of unsold books, etc.), but the result is that eBooks are often the only way to get some really great books (such as John Bower's Fighter Queen saga).
This is a digression, I know, but I've always wondered, what's the deal with the practice of returning unsold books?
Ala wrote: "I think, as a group rule, we should simply ban mention/offering of e-books in this way. Unless specifically stated that it is part of that 'lending' ability."As a published ebook author, I have a strong opinion on piracy and completely agree with the above comment. I (like most ebook authors and publishers) frequently give away copies of my ebook and on most sales sites a free sample chapter is also posted. If someone really wants a free copy of my ebook, there are lots of opportunities to win one. And honestly, if you want to read a book badly enough that you would steal it (because that is what you are doing, no matter how you rationalize or justify it to yourself) why not support that author and their career by actually purchasing their novel?
Maybe Brad should make a poll to get his question answered about the group policy. But make it anonymous or no one will answer honestly.Who would want to wave their hand in the air as pro Piracy or even just not anti piracy.
Ala wrote: "This is a digression, I know, but I've always wondered, what's the deal with the practice of returning unsold books?"Bookstores purchase books wholesale and shelve them for a period of time. If they fail to move, they return the unsold books for a refund. In many cases, this is done by ripping off the covers of the unsold books (paperbacks) to be returned and dumping the body of the book into the dumpster. It's all a matter of contract and who pays the shipping on the unsold books, but that's pretty much the norm.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
This Immortal (other topics)Authors mentioned in this topic
C.J. Cherryh (other topics)Lynn Abbey (other topics)
Jane S. Fancher (other topics)
Roger Zelazny (other topics)
L.E. Modesitt Jr. (other topics)
The offering of hard to find e-books or requesting hard to find e-books ... is it piracy? Should we, as a group, crack down on such offers? Is it nor really a big deal? Have your say.