Ethan Frome: Week 1 - Part I: Introduction & Chapters 1-4

[MadgeUK]

Christopher wrote: Please, please don't forget about her short stories too. .."

Her ghost stories are supposed to be particularly good (apparently The Mount was haunted:O) so perhaps we can read one of those next Halloween.

[MadgeUK]

Everyman wrote: "Silver wrote: "at a time when authors could not openly speak about such physical intimacies and writing had to have a certain degree of chasteness food was used to say that which could not be said....

Also flowers..."

Yes indeed, trees too - I can't say that I have noticed flowers in EF although I did mention the significance of the Elm at the beginning of our discussion. Has anyone else noticed the mention of flowers?

[MadgeUK]

Everyman wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Do you think in 1900 Mattie had a great many ways to become independent? Or that Ethan has the financial means to become an engineer? "

Mattie certainly would have had options, th..."

I think that one of the points Wharton is making is that there is also a poverty of the mind - that the landscape and environment stifle ambition so the will to take other options dies. I think we have probably all met people who have been 'ground down' by their circumstances.

[Lily]

Bill wrote: "But its hard to imagine New England, which is the cradle of one of the most enterprising civilizations in history, as a place of cultural poverty."

I wouldn't say "cultural poverty," but I might say "cultural hardscrabble" or "cultural severity." Now, those may still be more symbols or metaphors than reality -- not certain how to make the distinction. Having lived on some of the most fertile farmland in the Midwest, in a Midwestern city, in Vermont, and now in the Mid-Atlantic, I do perceive geography or landscape as influencing culture, in ways that shift and are hard to set boundaries around and are full of contradictions, but which are still palpable. There are reasons for the stereotypes of the New England Yankee, for example. To some extent, Robert Frost is the poet who touches on these impacts for New England. In contrast, Sandburg's "Chicago" captures the spirit of another city whose location has attracted certain industries and the people willing to support that commerce.

[MadgeUK]

However, what I'm having a hard time with is the idea that landscape affects culture. I do believe geography can affect it, because the richness of a culture will depend on its interactions with other cultures and geography plays a role in that.

Have you never felt an affection for certain landscapes and a revulsion for others Bill? I am from the north of England which is hilly and rugged and my heart lifts every time I see it. After I left it, I cried when I first saw a film of it. The landscape of the south of England, the Downs etc. leaves me cold and I positively dislike the thatched cottage tidiness of the Cotswolds.

Time and time again in novels we read of an attachment for certain landscapes - Hardy's Wessex, the Bronte's Yorkshire. We also read of the effects these landscapes have on character - of the hardy nature of people who live in the Alps, of the laid back nature of those who live in the tropics, and so on. Last night I was watching a documentary about evolution and a scientist was speaking of the physiological changes which had taken place over centuries in the people of Tibet living at high altitudes and how these had affected their character. Different characters produce different cultures.

We have an area in England which is similar to New England (though by no means as vast) - East Anglia, where most of our arable land is. It is flat and extremely uninteresting to the eye, especially in winter. People have traditionally lived on isolated smallholdings and they are very taciturn and insular. In rugged Yorkshire, which has a more varied landscape, people are very outspoken and outgoing. These are stereotypes of course but in times when people lived in the same place for a long, long time, and intermarried, stereotypes were often created. We now live in times when people everywhere tend to travel not only in their own country but abroad too, so things are very different.

You may not know of the literature regarding the bleakness and austerity which affects the New England Puritans but it exists. And yes, America is one of the most enterprising civilisations in history but Americans are also thought of as being insular and somewhat puritanical - like Wharton, many of them flock to Europe for more liberated, artistic lives. I do not mean this as a criticism, I am just reflecting what I have read.

[MadgeUK]

Yes, we should distrust anecdote but these are ideas about landscape affecting character have been written about by many people over many years and so there seems to be some evidence for them. As we have often said about the Western canon of literature, we stand on the shoulders of giants and those giants often reveal wisdom to us.

Re your 'southern' anecdote, you remind me of a visit my daugher made with me to Trinidad. She is an architect in the building industry and on the first day we were there she observed a house being built around the corner and went to take a look at the building methods and to talk to the workmen. She was appalled at the dangerous untidiness and astounded to find that in the fortnight we were there, the men only turned up for about 3 hours a day and some days not at all. At the airport we met another English builder working on roads there who said he would soon have to go home because he was getting into such lazy habits:).

I guess that being lazy in sunny climes may be healthier than rushing around and of course rushing around in cold climes keeps you from freezing to death! Chacun à son goût.

The other thing we have not mentioned in relation to EF is the effects of intermarriage on character. In these small communities intermarriage over centuries, especially cousin marriage, has been common and there is some evidence that this affects not only the physiology but the intelligence, therefore the character. I don't know whether there is any textual evidence of this being a problem in EF but it may have been part of Wharton's thinking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_m...

[Everyman]

MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, we should distrust anecdote ..."

I'm not sure why you say that. Much of history is anecdotes that happened to get written down but are still anecdotes. Yes, they can be true or false just as historic documents can be true or false. But they should not be distrusted just because they're anecdotes.

[Lily]

Everyman wrote: "But they should not be distrusted just because they're anecdotes."

Why not? (The old product/market manager in me calls them "market research of one.")

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: "What I distrust is that you can draw any universal conclusions from anecdotes. ..."

We draw universal conclusions from anecdotes all the time. For just one example, virtually every pain medication which has been used by any society or approved by the FDA is used or approved based on anecdotal evidence. There is, as far as I know, no scientific way to measure pain. It is all anecdotal. Yet medical science relies heavily on such anecdotal evidence.

Much of our social history is based on anecdote. Most of Herodotus is a sequence of anecdotes, but we look to him as one of the sources (not of course the only source) of our understanding of the ancient world. The journals of Pepys, Johnson, and other historical figures are largely a series of anecdotes, but we use these extensively as a part of our study of history. As far as military history is concerned, we can look at documentary evidence for information about the broad sweep of the progress of a war, but what it is like to actually be a soldier on the ground is largely based on anecdotal evidence.

Take away all anecdotal evidence from our social and political history, and we would actually know very little about the past.

[Everyman]

I worried for a moment that the digression into the validity of anecdotal evidence was taking us away from Ethan Frome, but then I realized quite the contrary. After all, the unnamed narrator of the story is basing the story of Frome's life almost entirely on anecdotes he hears about Frome and the other characters. One person tells him this story, another tells him that story, Ethan himself presumably tells him some stories about his past, and the narrator puts these anecdotes together into a somewhat coherent narrative. Does that mean that we are supposed to trust nothing about the narrative? Could it all be totally wrong? How wrong might it indeed be? What "hard," i.e. non-anecdotal, evidence do we have that Zeenia was ever anything but the picture of cheerful health? What hard, i.e. non-anecdotal, evidence do we have that Mattie was attractive? If we distrust anecdote so ferociously, why should we even spend the time reading the story?

[Silver]

Bill wrote: "Everyman wrote: "If we distrust anecdote so ferociously, why should we even spend the time reading the story? ..."

There is a lot more meaning and entertainment to be derived from a story then ju..."

Perhaps it has to do with societal perceptions. As one is reading the story, one cannot help but to become engrossed in the idea that it is all from Ethan's point of view, but one has to remember that in fact the story is not coming from Ethan, it is coming from assorted bits and pieces told by other people within the community and gathered from different sources. So this is not truly how Ethan sees himself, but how others see him, and the reader is than being led to judge Ethan through the eyes of others.

[Lily]

I read through the opening pages again and was struck by the story that "might have been." For example, our narrator reports:

"On my arrival at Starkfield, Denis Eady, the rich Irish grocer, who was the proprietor of Starkfield's nearest approach to a livery stable, had entered into an agreement to send me over daily to Corbury Flats..."

If Zeena had been perceptive and coaxing; if Mattie had been confident and receptive, if Ethan had...

I also noted this passage:

"Ruth Varnum was always as nervous as a rat; and, come to think of it, she was the first one to see 'em after they was picked up. It happened right below lawyer Varnum's, down at the bend of the Corbury road, just round about the time that Ruth got engaged to Ned Hale. The young folks was all friends, and I guess she just can't bear to talk about it. She's had troubles enough of her own."

Another story that we don't get to hear -- what were Ruth's troubles.

Finally, one I haven't yet come to terms with:

"Harmon thoughtfully passed his tobacco to the other cheek. 'Oh, as to that: I guess it's always Ethan done the caring.'"

But that is probably the passage, along with this one, that set up sympathy for Ethan's story, rather than for Zeena's:

"'Well, matters ain't gone any too well with him,' Harmon said. 'When a man's been setting round like a hulk for twenty years or more, seeing things that want doing, it eats inter him, and he loses his grit. That Frome farm was always 'bout as bare's a milkpan when the cat's been round; and you know what one of them old water-mills is wuth nowadays. When Ethan could sweat over 'em both from sunup to dark he kinder choked a living out of 'em; but his folks ate up most everything, even then, and I don't see how he makes out now. Fust his father got a kick, out haying, and went soft in the brain, and gave away money like Bible texts afore he died. Then his mother got queer and dragged along for years as weak as a baby; and his wife Zeena, she's always been the greatest hand at doctoring in the county. Sickness and trouble: that's what Ethan's had his plate full up with, ever since the very first helping.'"

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: "I read through the opening pages again and was struck by the story that "might have been." "

Nice post. When you think about it, it's rather a weird way to tell a story. I'm trying to think of other novels which use a similar technique, but I'm not coming up with any. There are some where a third party narrator enters a community and learns/tells a story, but not where the narrator specifically talks about piecing the story together from this and that source.

[Lily]

Everyman wrote: "I'm trying to think of other novels which use a similar technique, but I'm not coming up with any. There are some where a third party narrator enters a community and learns/tells a story, but not where the narrator specifically talks about piecing the story together from this and that source. "

Wharton claims two sources for her technique, neither of which I know first hand, so can't judge the fit. Let's see if I can find them. (Others have already referred to them here in another post.)

My Barnes and Noble Classics edition includes an additional "Introduction by Edith Wharton", preceding the framing narrator's introduction. Off hand, I don't find it online. It is definitely of interest in its entirety.

"I make no claim for originality in following a method of which 'La Grande Breteche' [Honoré de Balzac] and 'The Ring and the Book' [Robert Browning] had set me the magnificent example; my one merit is, perhaps, to have guessed that the proceeding there employed was also applicable to my small tale." -- Edith Wharton

"Balzac's story is about a traveler who visits a small village and becomes fascinated with an old house. Wishing to find out about it (as The Narrator of Ethan Frome is made curious when he sees Ethan leaving the post office), Balzac's traveler asks the villagers about the house, and the story is gradually put together by compiling a composite of different bits of information." -- this description is from the online Cliff Notes for Ethan Frome

Here is the Wikipedia entry for Browning's verse novel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ring...

Other commentators point to the similarities to Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, but as you say, that is more entering a community and learning/telling a story than piecing it together. Still, I don't understand how the narrator here learned the story, because I'm pretty certain Ethan didn't sit down and tell it. So the technique, while clever, feels pretty artificial to me.

(Mrs. Wharton does describe what drove her to use the technique -- but no more for this post. Maybe later.)

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "Christopher wrote: Please, please don't forget about her short stories too. .."

Her ghost stories are supposed to be particularly good (apparently The Mount was haunted:O) so perhaps we can read ..."

As we did this past Halloween.

[Linda2]

Lily wrote: "Other commentators point to the similarities to Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights, but as you say, that is more entering a community and learning/telling a story than piecing it together. Still, I don't understand how the narrator here learned the story, because I'm pretty certain Ethan didn't sit down and tell it. So the technique, while clever, feels pretty artificial to me.

(Mrs. Wharton does describe what drove her to use the technique -- but no more for this post. Maybe later.) "

It's literary license. She does it so well that (most of us)can suspend disbelief. if The House of Mirth is written entirely from Lily's POV, how do we see Selden entering the bedroom at the end? Webcams?

[Linda2]

Bill wrote: "I do agree that there seems to be an 'environment' or cultural stifling of ambition. In fact, specific cultural reasons are laid out in the story. But its hard to imagine New England, which is the cradle of one of the most enterprising civilizations in history, as a place of cultural poverty. ."

This is rural New England, 1900, not modern New England. These folks were isolated far from any major cities, and more so in the winter. As for the landscape, the people of Scandinavia are very deeply affected by the long dark winters with very short days and the immense amounts of snow. As are the inhabitants of tropical climates and those who live in deserts. The landscape is both symbolic and very concrete.

[Linda2]

Everyman wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "Do you think in 1900 Mattie had a great many ways to become independent? Or that Ethan has the financial means to become an engineer? "

Mattie certainly would have had options, th..."

Which brings us back to people who have options but are ground down by cultural norms and circumstances. Although not everyone here is sympathetic to Ethan's behavior, we know that Wharton is. She has stacked the deck and made him her Job (pardon the mixed metaphor.) She's making a point about the state of matrimony, the Calvinist ethic, narrow-minded societies, the choice of duty over happiness. (Sound like Newland Archer, anyone?)

There's a certain similarity in that to Jude the Obscure. Hardy has stacked the deck completely against Jude to make his point. It's amazing that no readers of that book have committed suicide by the end.
:D

[Linda2]

I'm still not getting all my GR emails. Missed much of the discussion tonight. Pardon me for always popping in late.

[Sasha]

Lily said, 'So the technique, while clever, feels pretty artificial to me'.

Don't get me wrong, I love the story, but I don't think Wharton's device with the narrator worked. I am a little unclear-is the narration of Ethan's inner feelings the narrator's 'vision' or is it supposed to be what Ethan has told the narrator? If the latter, it doesn't seem to be in character for Ethan to be spilling his innermost feelings to a stranger. Unless he feels an affinity because the narrator is an engineer.

[Traveller]

Talking of Jude the Obscure: I'm too late to do the Wharton book with you guys, but am looking forward to doing Jude the Obscure with you. :)

I don't suppose a newcomer like myself could put a request in for a book to be read a bit later this year?

I'm going to have to be doing George Eliot's Middlemarch at some stage for a course I'm doing this year, and would love to do it with you, especially since I have to discuss the novel in context of it's social, cultural and historical background.

Apologies if this is the incorrect thread to mention this, but I couldn't find the relevant place to post it.

[Jan]

Rochelle, the best way of keeping up to date with discussions is to go back to top, click on discussions, and it will show you in red letters how many new messages there are...you can do it instantly.

[Jan]

Traveller, you might be interested to take a look at a group called 'Classics and the Western Canon.' A number of people in this group are also members there, and that group discussed Middlemarch in the middle of 2010. They welcome comments any time, and even if you didn't wish to comment so long after the discussions, I'm sure they would be relevant to your reading.

[Traveller]

Ah, thanks, Jan. I'd actually already joined their group a while back, (but haven't really chatted much there), and was rather sorry that I'm only catching the tail-end of their Canterbury Tales read-through, since I need to do the Wife of Bath as well, for the course I mentioned. I will definitely be reading through the discussions there, though I'm sad now to learn that I had missed Middlemarch as well.

I'd better check if they've already done Paradise Lost, and then I'm going to be really, really sad. :P

Thanks for your input, Jan. :)

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Traveller wrote: "Ah, thanks, Jan. I'd actually already joined their group a while back, (but haven't really chatted much there), and was rather sorry that I'm only catching the tail-end of their Canterbury Tales r..."

Unfortunately, yes, "Paradise Lost" was read last year. Sorry...

[MadgeUK]

Rochelle wrote: Although not everyone here is sympathetic to Ethan's behavior, we know that Wharton is. She has stacked the deck and made him her Job (pardon the mixed metaphor.) ..."

Very true Rochelle. Although I do not see Jude as being so depressing because there is so much more 'meat' to the story.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "It's literary license. She does it so well that (most of us)can suspend disbelief.."

..."

I was able to suspend disbelief the first time I read the book. The 2nd time has proven impossible. I so loved the book the first time through. But this time (yes, I know, I already said this), it just irritates the heck out of me. My mind keeps screaming: You're just making that up! Because there is no way the engineer narrator knows what other people are thinking/feeling. Ethan is NOT the man to pour out his thoughts and feelings.)An all-knowing narrator would be such a blessing. Sigh. It's just that EW Wharton made Ethan so real for me in the prologue, that I don't like her making stuff up about him in the rest of book. It seems so disrepectful to Ethan.

[[deleted user]]

Post 230 MadgeUK wrote: "It matters not at all what Wharton intended. It's not just the author. It takes two to tango. The reader brings whatever the reader wants to bring, legitimately.

If this was entirely the case this discussion could be 'off topic' all the time and we could discuss whatever we wanted to discuss. The author's intention must surely count for something. I could think that this book was about a Martian in Yorkshire but it clearly isn't. I could think that when Wharton says it is cold it is really hot or that Ethan is not damaged in any way at all but is a perfectly happy guy!

Is there any textual evidence that Ethan is emotionally damaged? We learn from the Introduction that he was considered 'smart' but that he didn't get away because of the accident, not just the accident to him but to the others he had to care for. ..."

It's rather late, but I had intended to respond to this. Better late than never (sometimes).

you wrote: "I could think that this book was about a Martian in Yorkshire"

I respond: if you show me how TO YOU the Martian that you met back in Yorkshire seemed so similar to Ethan---not necessarily physically, and how the Martian in Yorkshire had stimulated thoughts for you which were so meaningful to you...which effected who you were as a person....perhaps changed you who were.... perhaps the Martian from Yorkshire DID have a limp such as Ethan's...and WAS a very caring Martian....and your knowledge of how that poor physically handicapped Martin just kept doing what he had to do...never complaining....working hard for the Martian wife back home---

and when you had seen or read of that.... and thought about that....why, it just changed your life.... and then you made a conscious decision to become less complaining yourself.... and you found that this changed your relationships with the people in your own life....


Why, then, yes, I would say that you could bring the Martian from Yorkshire into the discussion. IF you can show how it is valid to the story at hand.

I see that in Post 214 (who would have thunk we would have 214 posts by chapter 4???), I see that in Post 214 you have listed a number of "approved" themes.

Now as it happens, I think some of those themes ARE relevant to the story. But the themes listed that don't resonate for me....Why, for me, as a reader, they are irrelevant...they are meaningless...I ignore them, no matter what EW's intentions were.

A rough analogy: If I were to buy a car...perhaps the designer of the car had in mind that I drive on smooth, paved highways. But that is not always my need. Sometimes I need to drive on rough, dirt roads. I bought the darn car. I can use it as I need to---as long as I can remain within the parameters of car usage. I can drive slower on the dirt roads because I can link slower driving to regular car driving. (If i can link the Martian in Yorkshire to EF, and I now "own" the book---I'm the reader), I can do so. Now, the car might not perform as optimally if it is driven on dirt roads. But as the car owner, if that is what I NEED to do, that is what I should do. A nice shiny car that doesn't help do what I need to do is little or no help to me.

(yeah, I'm sure there are spelling errors)

So, yes, I lean strongly towards readers response.



from the prologue, I think we only know that Ethan was injured in "the smash-up"

And as for emotionally damaged, I think I'm following Bill. (forgive me if I have misinterpretted you, Bill)

IF we are seeing the center story through Ethan, than it's just not a sign of an emotionally healthy man not to think of how his actions might make his wife feel.

Now, as someone wrote, Ethan did notice the glances that Zenobia made...but he was only noticing them in how they might affect him...I never saw him "thinking" "Oh, Zenobia is making that face because her feelings are hurt...Did I hurt her feelings?" I saw it more along the lines of "Oh, Zenobia is making that face.... what action can I take so that Zenobia won't take actions that might cause Mattie to leave this home." It just always seem to be about Ethan.

(gotta ran. love what you people are doing.)

[MadgeUK]

Adelle wrote: I see that in Post 214 you have listed a number of "approved" themes.

These are not 'approved' themes but are themes which are often suggested in various Notes, Introductions, Analyses etc of this novel and I just thought that they might be useful and help to move us along.

As you say, people are quite entitled to bring up whatever theme they like, even ones that are as outlandish as EF being a Martian in Yorkshire.

[MadgeUK]

Adelle wrote: It seems so disrepectful to Ethan.

Why should the author or ourselves be respectful towards Ethan? Is he such an all out good guy?

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "Now, as someone wrote, Ethan did notice the glances that Zenobia made...but he was only noticing them in how they might affect him...I never saw him "thinking" "Oh, Zenobia is making that face because her feelings are hurt...Did I hurt her feelings?" I saw it more along the lines of "Oh, Zenobia is making that face.... what action can I take so that Zenobia won't take actions that might cause Mattie to leave this home." It just always seem to be about Ethan. "

Well, that is certainly one way to read those passages, i.e., Ethan all about Ethan. I think it is this passage that set me up to be sympathetic to Ethan's plight, along with the other one I quoted previously:

"Harmon thoughtfully passed his tobacco to the other cheek. 'Oh, as to that: I guess it's always Ethan done the caring.'"

There is just so much a man can be expected to endure, but then he must endure more, so the fates degree, whether the fate is of his own making or not. I don't "like" Ethan (nor particularly either Zeena or Mattie), but Wharton does somehow create some semblance of empathy for all three of her main characters, entangled in the circumstances in which they find themselves.

[MadgeUK]

Lily wrote: I don't "like" Ethan (nor particularly either Zeena or Mattie), but Wharton does somehow create some semblance of empathy for all three of her main characters, entangled in the circumstances in which they find themselves.

I agree Lily and although I found Zeena a difficult character to 'like' at the beginning of the novel, I had some sympathy for her at the end.

[Silver]

Lily wrote: I don't "like" Ethan (nor particularly either Zeena or Mattie), but Wharton does somehow create some semblance of empathy for all three of her main characters, entangled in the circumstances in which they find themselves. "

I think that is very well said and I do agree that Wharton does a wonderful job of showing all of these characters as being so painfully human and caught up within the circumstances of thier lives. None of them are perfect, none of them are wholly innocent and they are all in thier part guilty for the position in which they have found themselves, and yet, I find that they all do have thier moments in which you do feel for them.

Neither of them are altogether likable but at the same time it would seem to narrow of a few to judge them too harshly nor can any of them be held to blame above the others.

[MadgeUK]

None of them are perfect, none of them are wholly innocent...

Just like people in the world at large and perhaps that too was part of what Wharton was trying to say. Even in her New York or Bostonian society there would be people like these, trapped in other sorts of circumstances.

[[deleted user]]

Not such a "good" guy or such a "bad" guy...

but he seemed to me in the prologue such a "real" guy.
LOL, yes, even 'though I didn't know much about him, what I did know about him was "true."

[Rosemary]

MadgeUK wrote: "LOL. A prostitute was not what Ethan was aching for; his dream is pure, like the snow:). I think perhaps you are putting too much sexual emphasis into the story which to me seems more about longing and yearning ..."

I think our contemporary culture too often confuses that sort of longing for lust.

This passage very much touched me:

It was during their night walks back to the farm that he felt most intensely the sweetness of this communion. He had always been more sensitive than the people about him to the appeal of natural beauty. His unfinished studies had given form to this sensibility and even in his unhappiest moments field and sky spoke to him with a deep and powerful persuasion. But hitherto the emotion had remained in him as a silent ache, veiling with sadness the beauty that evoked it. He did not even know whether any one else in the world felt as he did, or whether he was the sole victim of this mournful privilege. Then he learned that one other spirit had trembled with the same touch of wonder: that at his side, living under his roof and eating his bread, was a creature to whom he could say: “That's Orion down yonder; the big fellow to the right is Aldebaran, and the bunch of little ones—like bees swarming—they're the Pleiades…” or whom he could hold entranced before a ledge of granite thrusting up through the fern while he unrolled the huge panorama of the ice age, and the long dim stretches of succeeding time. The fact that admiration for his learning mingled with Mattie's wonder at what he taught was not the least part of his pleasure. And there were other sensations, less definable but more exquisite, which drew them together with a shock of silent joy: the cold red of sunset behind winter hills, the flight of cloud-flocks over slopes of golden stubble, or the intensely blue shadows of hemlocks on sunlit snow. When she said to him once: “It looks just as if it was painted!” it seemed to Ethan that the art of definition could go no farther, and that words had at last been found to utter his secret soul….

There's something special in the feeling you can have with one other person with whom you are in total sympathy- and Ethan obviously doesn't have it, and can't have it, in his marriage.

I'm not saying that he'd be right to commit adultery, but I understand his feelings. Further, isn't the worst sin here the rules of society that are preventing his happiness? Isn't that Wharton's point?

(I read this book in high-school and quickly re-read it for this group- I'm psyched about not having to drop out for not being able to keep up . . . )

[[deleted user]]

Beautiful passage you quoted.


Rochelle wrote Further, isn't the worst sin here the rules of society that are preventing his happiness? Isn't that Wharton's point?

IS happiness the most important thing for mankind to strive after. For Ethan sto strive for?

I think modern society puts too much emphasis on happiness... on self-fulfillment which makes the self happy and disregards how the actions taken effect those around them. "not my concern"

Should Ethan go for happiness with Mattie (IF that is what the story is pointing towards)....what then happens to Zenobia, to Starkville, to young boys who had looked up to Ethan and in their grown years remember that Ethan had run off with the woman he loved and deserted his wife...thinking, if Ethan thought it was Ok, then it must be ok....with some of them...it just might be the tipping point in their decision to stay or not to stay with their own wives... what happens to the farm that's been in the family for generations? and Mattie?.....just how would Mattie's life be better for her? it wouldn't. So Ethan's seemingly not thinking of her either.

[Rosemary]

Bill wrote: "The Land and the People
Any correlation between harsh land and harsh or puritan ethics is coincidental. "

Perhaps, but in the case of New England, that coincidental physical feature makes a very good metaphor. We really are (or at least see ourselves as) a hardier breed.

I've lived here my whole life, and the descriptions of the landscape were what made me willing to re-read this (very bleak) book. I love the landscape of New England, and I also love the way Wharton was able to turn it into an allegory. It's a fairly standard literary device, isn't it?

It's like the white houses. It was very clever of whoever mentioned it back in the first page of comments to equate them with purity. I imagine EW did choose to describe them for that reason. But it's also the traditional color for houses here, and in older village centers you'll still see that almost every house is painted white (in coastal Maine it's grey cedar shingles and white trim, but that's it).

I guess I'm saying that just because something is factual doesn't mean it can't be used in a more-than-factual way.

[Rosemary]

MadgeUK wrote: "do doughnuts, blueberries and pickles have any sexual symbolism in the US? "

Nope, just traditional food. I can read symbolism into a lot, but I don't see it here. Pickles used to be standard at any meal, and still are in some houses. Hence needing a dedicated pickle dish (my family has one . . . it's clear glass, though, not red).

Same with doughnuts, really. And pickles and doughnuts together is also a common combination (especially with sugar-on-snow . . . . mmm . . . )

[Rosemary]

Silver wrote: "Food symbolism is very significant in conveying the desires, intentions, intimacies es between characters and this is an imperative moment between Mattie and Ethan, thier first meal together alone in the house with this pent up sexual tension between them. I do not think it is remiss to look at the imagery Wharton gives us here. "

Good point. I was so eager to defend the symbolism of the landscape and the white houses- I shouldn't deny the possible symbolism of the pickles.

. . . on the other hand, I still don't see it. ;-) Wharton really dwells on the details that she wants us to see as symbolic, like the pickle dish and the landscape. There wasn't a similar, mm, dwelling on the food.

And pickles really are a staple food. ;-)

[Rosemary]

Adelle wrote: "I think modern society puts too much emphasis on happiness... on self-fulfillment which makes the self happy and disregards how the actions taken effect those around them. "not my concern""

Well, I agree. But I think that society in the 1890's put too little emphasis on personal happiness.

That was actually one of my primary reflections when reading this- usually today I feel frustrated by the divorce rate, and feel we take both marriage and divorce too lightly. Re-reading EF made me realize why we wanted divorce in the first place- to get out of miserable situations like this.

It's a balance. Someone earlier mentioned the Great Gatsby- as I recall (it's been years), that book was an indictment of the unfettered pursuit of happiness, and how it leaves us just as miserable in the end as if we never pursue it (like EF).

[[deleted user]]

I don't know whether Ethan's marriage was miserable, nor, if it was, do I know how much he might have contributed to it.

But I think, too, from what little I know, that in a many matters (leaving aside Ethan and Zeena's marriage) that society in the 1890s much less emphasis on personal happiness.

(On the other hand, society might not have been wealthy enough then to let people do much wandering in personal relationships. There were few social services, nor could society afford them. Life would understandably have been pretty bleak for abandoned wives and children. Look at Mattie's situation. Her relatives did step up to "do something for her," but they undoubted resented it no end....every penny they might give to her or to abandoned wives and children takes money out of their own family.)

[Lily]

S. Rosemary wrote: "It's a balance."

Thx for your post, Rosemary. Words with which I largely agree, although I can't really speak to how great the lack of attention to personal happiness in the late 1800's; after all, the 1870's to 1893 has been called the Gilded Age, so to the extent that happiness was linked to materialism....

"The Gilded Age is most famous for the creation of a modern industrial economy. During the 1870s and 1880s, the U.S. economy grew at the fastest rate in its history, with real wages, wealth, GDP, and capital formation all increasing rapidly...."

"The wealth of the period is highlighted by the American upper class' opulence, but also by the rise of American philanthropy (referred to by Andrew Carnegie as the 'Gospel of Wealth') that used private money to endow thousands of colleges, hospitals, museums, academies, schools, opera houses, public libraries, symphony orchestras, and charities. John D. Rockefeller, for example, donated over $500 million to various charities, slightly over half his entire net worth."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_age

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "I don't know whether Ethan's marriage was miserable..."

What text or lack thereof leads you to that doubt? Or maybe we should treat this in the next section?

[Linda2]

Adelle wrote: "Beautiful passage you quoted.


Rochelle wrote Further, isn't the worst sin here the rules of society that are preventing his happiness? Isn't that Wharton's point?

IS happiness the most im..."

I didn't say that. Someone else.

[Everyman]

Traveller wrote: "I'm going to have to be doing George Eliot's Middlemarch at some stage for a course I'm doing this year, and would love to do it with you, especially since I have to discuss the novel in context of it's social, cultural and historical background. "

You can certainly request of Christopher any title you want to read, but it will be up to the group whether to choose it or not.

However, Middlemarch was Discussed last year by the Classics and the Western Canon group, and you may want to skim the posts made during that discussion. You can find them here:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...

If you made some posts in that group (discussions remain open forever) you might find some people interested in continuing the discussion. (Or, of course, you might not if people have moved on and don't want to look back. No promises!)

[Everyman]

Traveller wrote: I'd better check if they've already done Paradise Lost, and then I'm going to be really, really sad. :P

I hate to tell you, but . . .

Is Moby Dick by any chance on your reading list? If so, you're in luck!

[Everyman]

Jan wrote: "Traveller, you might be interested to take a look at a group called 'Classics and the Western Canon.' A number of people in this group are also members there, and that group discussed Middlemarch i..."

Ah, you beat me to it!

[[deleted user]]

Rochelle wrote: Post 360.

Rochelle, my apoligies in posting that I was responding to you when I obviously wasn't. You are quite right. The post I was responding to was written by S. Rosemary.

Sorry, Rochelle, Rosemary, apparently I wasn't watching closely enough and got sloppily mixed up. My bad.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :)

[Linda2]

Lily wrote: "S. Rosemary wrote: "It's a balance."

Thx for your post, Rosemary. Words with which I largely agree, although I can't really speak to how great the lack of attention to personal happiness in the l..."

The Gilded Age was experienced by the wealthy. This was also the period of the Great Immigration. From 1836-1914 30 million people immigrated to the US. Many of them moved into ghettos in the major cities. If wealth equaled happiness, it was because most of the immigrants, including the robber barons, had experienced great poverty.