Ethan Frome: Week 1 - Part I: Introduction & Chapters 1-4

[Jan]

It's my first time reading anything by Edith Wharton. I was happy to locate and buy a copy. I started and finished it this morning before breakfast, as I couldn't put it down. By then I was running late to go to rollerblading, then lunch with friends. After that I went shopping and have just returned to read through all 182 messages, some of which I wish to comment upon.
Bill asked whether a woman would leave her husband in the house alone with a pretty maid....well not quite alone...she did leave her all-seeing cat behind, jumping off the chair and leaving it rocking in a 'spectral' manner and breaking the glass gift, thus spoiling the moment and providing evidence for the curious. Inspector Cat.
In message 122 Everyman pondered the question of...
Hypochondriac or not?
I've not yet had time to go back and gather evidence for my argument, but I have the feeling that Wharton is intending us to view Zeena as someone who complains a lot about what appear to be fairly minor ailments. At one point there is mention of how townsfolk seem to take pride in their 'troubles', and there is even greater prestige in having 'complications'. I'm sure we've all met this type of person, and most would agree that Wharton is using sarcasm here. This is surely deliberately intended to make us view Zeena's ailments with some suspicion. In addition, whenever Zeena wants to do something or go somewhere, she is perfectly capable of getting up and doing it immediately, which makes one think that she is not really as ill as she makes out.

[MadgeUK]

LOL. A prostitute was not what Ethan was aching for; his dream is pure, like the snow:). I think perhaps you are putting too much sexual emphasis into the story which to me seems more about longing and yearning, not just about lust. Mattie is part of Ethan's overall dream of a better life, a means to an end. He is consumed by this dream and it is a dream that Zeena, because of her very different (and rather miserable) nature cannot enter into, as some wives would and who, in any case, became ill shortly after their wedding. Mattie, on the other hand, breathes new life into him, has dreams of her own and can share in his ambitions. She was 'quick to learn, but forgetful and dreamy'. (Chap 1.) He was never so happy with her as when he abandoned himself to these dreams.' (Chap 2.) These are not dreams of a lustful man, they are more about an ideal, what he also longed for when he married Zeena, what many of us may long for in the early days of a marriage but which too often remain unconsummated.

In the early days of his marriage to Zeena, he had dreams too: 'He had always wanted to be an engineer, and to live in towns, where there were lectures and big libraries and "fellows doing things." A slight engineering job in Florida, put in his way during his period of study at Worcester, increased his faith in his ability as well as his eagerness to see the world; and he felt sure that, with a "smart" wife like Zeena, it would not be long before he had made himself a place in it.' Zeena 'had let her husband see from the first that life on an isolated farm was not what she had expected when she married' but 'within a year of their marriage she developed the "sickliness" which had since made her notable even in a community rich in pathological instances'.

So Mattie coming to the house aroused the early ambitious longings of his marriage which Zeena's 'sickliness' had suppressed. I see Zeena as being more 'ground down' by Starkfield, which has caused her to be a hypochondriac, than Ethan, who in his heart is still hopeful of a change for the better and the 'coming to his house of a bit of hopeful young life was like the lighting of a fire on a cold hearth' (Chap 1).

[MadgeUK]

Sasha wrote: "On another subject, one close to many of our hearts-cats.

As soon as I read about the cat eyeing Mattie and Ethan, I thought of another novel, published in 1869, by Zola,[book:Therese Raquin|4702..."

Good catch Sasha! I would love to read some Zola here and Therese Raquin would be a good start.

[MadgeUK]

I did acknowledge your facetiousness by LOL and a smiley:).

I thought others had done a good job in replying to your post 131 and that we had therefore moved on.

There are things I cannot say about Ethan and the relationship at this stage because they would be spoilers but I still think that lust is not what Wharton is writing about and that you are in danger of emphasising it too much. Although, of course, you are at liberty to interpret the novel in any way you like.

Nor am I sure that sex with Mattie is important to Ethan. We could take the viewpoint that he is of Puritan stock and that his dreams are not carnal. I tend to look upon him as a dreamer rather than as a seducer. The snowy landscape, the coldness, the whiteness, the Puritan background of NE, militate against sex for me, despite the touches of the red of passion throughout the novel. Ethan, Zeena and Mattie seem to me to be frigid characters, incapable of great passion and lust. Ethan's actions and dreams therefore seem very innocent. But perhaps it is me who is being innocent:D.

[MadgeUK]

I have just done a search for the words lust, sex, love, affection and passion in EF and none of them appeared. Perhaps Wharton did not use them because they were not integral to the story. What do others think?

[Susan]

So many posts already!! I will have gather my thoughts and try to catch up tonight.

[Jan]

Chris, I heartily agreed with a couple of your comments. I thought the one about Mattie being like a beautifully coloured butterfly was very well said and it described Ethan's enchantment very well. This is not to say that there's not an element of sexual desire, just that Bill's use of the word lust did sound somewhat tawdry and doesn't portray the full picture. Chris, your comment in message 151 explains that this story is about shades of grey. Bill, you also said in message 155 that 'decent people can do indecent things.' Even in 2011, there are still people who will see someone who leaves a marriage as 'bad' and the one who wanted to keep it together as 'good'. Wharton is showing the complexity of relationships, that someone can have feelings of love for someone other than their spouse, and not necessarily be a horrible person. Bill would have preferred Ethan to be wrestling with his conscience, not just swept away by his feelings. Now this is why it's so good to have so many differing viewpoints here, because this raises the question...why did Wharton choose not to portray Ethan having a huge moral dilemma about having feelings for someone other than his wife? Was this story considered scandalous at the time of publication?

[[deleted user]]

(I try to get here once a day to see what's going on.)

What a fabulous array of views. Fun to follow.

I have had a further thought regarding the center story. It has brought home to me that THIS is pretty much how we view other people. We never really know all about them. We get some information for them directly, and we probably get other information...probably shaded by their prejudices and biases. So that in judging them, so much rides on who we've talked to.

We know the narrator has talked with Harmon Gow. (I actually like Harmon Gow. I trust him and what he says. My opinion of him rose further when Gow came forward with a suggestion for alternative transportation. You would have thought that Denis Eady, who actually had a business agreement with the narrator would have stepped up, but he didn't. It was Harmon Gow. )

And we know the narrator has spoken--repeatedly, "every evening"--with Mrs. Ned Hale. {Ah!!! Madge! Here we have a 'Mrs. Husband's Name woman. I think she's Ruth, but she's not Mrs. Ruth Hale.} Every evening??? So perhaps this is the source of most of the story. Or the source of the nuance ("another and more delicately shaded version of the Starkfield chronicle" 11).



I don't know what she's told the narrator, but I don't put quite as much stock in what she says. Maybe she has impartially given the facts, but my gut feeling is to be a little wary of her remarks. I'm not sure I trust her "finer sensibility," and the "little more education" which "enable[s] her to judge her [neighbors] with detachment."

Also, I keep coming back to that sentence, "Her mind was a store-house of innocuous anecdote and any question about her acquaintances brought forth a volume of detail; but on the subject of Etham Frome I found her unexpectedly reticent" (11).... I'm not sure what that means since we also know the narrator "listened every evening to another and more delicately shaded version."



And I keep wondering WHY she is so reticent on just this one issue. Yes, maybe it was the trauma of the event. Maybe it's something else. But I don't trust her as a source as much as I trust Harmon Gow.

We know, too, that the narrator spoke with Denis Eady. Page 12. From the center story, it would seem that Denis Eady had been taken with Mattie and might have been considering asking her to marry him. (At least, in the center story we hear Zeena saying she won't stand in Mattie's way and so certain of this is Zeena that she tells Ethan a new girl will have to be found.)

Gotta wonder how Denis Eday cast his story of Ethan.

[Silver]

Everyman wrote: "Silver wrote: "Mattie can offer Ethan something his wife seems unable to, and not just physical attraction. "

I am ambivalent at this point about whether Ethan actually wants to go to bed sexually..."

I think the way in which Ethan does become jealous of Mattie while she is dancing with other men and how he becomes angry over the fact that certain looks and gestures which he thought were only for him, she does share with others is an indication that Ethan's inventions/interest for Mattie does go beyond just some sort of platonic friendship of simple enjoyment of her company.

Whether or not he acutally wants, or intended to in fact have sex with her perhaps cannot be stated, but I do think there is an indication that he is physically attracted to her and that he does seek some form of a relationship with her that is beyond just familial.

But of course there is no evidence, or suggestion that Mattie herself returns any such feelings, at least not up to this point, or that she would indeed consent to an actual affair. In her mind she may think of him purely in terms of friendship and family.

But I do not think we can say Ethan's own thoughts, desires are completely chaste.

[Lily]

Silver wrote: "...But I do not think we can say Ethan's own thoughts, desires are completely chaste."

At least, as perceived by our narrator. (Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, my comments on the central role of the narrator are being swayed by a commentary that I do not yet know enough to judge accurately, but which goes so far as to suggest that the narrator is the subject of the story!)

Incidentally, I much agree with the argument you build while still agreeing with others that I don't see this story, at least yet, as being primarily about carnal lust, but rather about life passion, which Freud has taught us so well has strong foundations and linkages in sexual drive and vitality.

[Lily]

Silver wrote: "...But I do not think we can say Ethan's own thoughts, desires are completely chaste."

At least, as perceived by our narrator. (Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, my comments on the central role of the narrator are being swayed by a commentary that I do not yet know enough to judge accurately, but which goes so far as to suggest that the narrator is the subject of the story!)

Incidentally, Silver, I much agree with the argument you build while still agreeing with others that I don't see this story, at least yet, as being primarily about carnal lust, but rather about life passion, which Freud has taught us so well has strong foundations and linkages in sexual drive and vitality.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "I think the way in which Ethan does become jealous of Mattie while she is dancing with other men and how he becomes angry over the fact that certain looks and gestures which he thoug..."

Nice.

[Silver]

Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "...But I do not think we can say Ethan's own thoughts, desires are completely chaste."

At least, as perceived by our narrator. (Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, my comments o..."

I never said the story was purely about carnal lust. In fact I said quite the opposite. That Ethan's attracting to Mattie was about more than the simple desire to have sex with her.

At the same time, I do not think we can say the Ethan is completely pure in motive and intention. And I think that the imagery which Wharton provides with and the subtle allusions she gives do highly suggust that there is a physical/sexual attraction as well.

I do not think we should completely overlook this. When he lips his arm though hers and they walk home together, he takes pleasure in the feeling of her pressing against him, and wishes he could press his cheek against her scarf.

Later while he is lying in bed with his wife, he thinks of kissing Mattie and regrets that he did not do so. In fact he reflects "Since he had seen her lips in the lamplight they were his"

And he seems to be quite looking forward to his wife going away and hi being left alone in the house with Matttie.

"Ethan tried to say something befitting the occasion, but there was only one thought in his mind: the fact that, for the first time since Mattie had come to live with them, Zeena was to be away for a night. He wondered if the girl were thinking of it too..."

I really do think this is all completely innocent, nor do I think it is meant to be read and seen as being completely innocent.

[Lily]

lust, n.
1 obsolete a : PLEASURE, GRATIFICATION, DELIGHT b : personal inclination : WISH, WHIM c : VIGOR, FERTILITY
2 : sexual desire especially of a violent self-indulgent character : LECHERY, LASCIVIOUSNESS
3 a : an intense longing : CRAVING b : EAGERNESS, ENTHUSIASM
synonym see DESIRE

intransitive verb : to have an intense desire or need : have a desire as a ruling passion : CRAVE, LONG, YEARN -- often used with after ; specifically : to have a sexual urge lust
transitive verb, obsolete : to make a choice of : PLEASE

"lust." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (2 Mar. 2011).

Well, I added the word "carnal" to distinguish the lust being discussed as that in definition 2 above.

I will say, as a widow, when married, I believe I would have felt more threatened by a woman offering lust for life than by one offering primarily sexual desirability, even while recognizing the two are inevitably intertwined in our humanity. It seems to me that intertwining is part of what Wharton is exploring so far in this novel. (What is faithfulness?)

Silver -- in no way did I intend to imply that you thought or had written that carnal lust or even sexual attraction was the only factor in play here. I merely intended to not exclude other viewpoints while agreeing with the points you were making about the presence of sexual innuendo.

[Everyman]

Rochelle wrote: "You're not aware of what Wharton is bringing to this book concerning her own life and marriage, and her view of the roles of women. You said you hadn't read her before. Why don't we read more before you state what you think the book is about? "

Whoa, Rochelle. First, why should we be aware of Wharton's life? If she's any good as a novelist, and I think she is, he novel will stand on its own, and be understood and appreciated on its own. I have intentionally not been reading the background thread on Wharton because I want to come to the novel as an independent work to look at on its merits, not colored by views of her life which are brief excerpts culled from what was presumably a very complex life, since in the end the lives of most good writers are complex. If her views of her life and marriage and the role of women are pertinent to the book, they will be reflected in it. If they aren't, trying to incorporate them into an interpretation of it may well be more harmful than helpful. That isn't to say that some of the facts of an authors life might not help enrich an understanding of that author's work on a second or third reading, but it is to suggest that one of the characteristics of a good novel is that it is perfectly capable of being read and appreciated without knowing anything at all about the author's life.

As to your second sentence, are you really suggesting that nobody should comment on a book if it's the first work of that author they have read? I disagree with that suggestion as strenuously as I can. First, that would make Goodreads a pretty barren place. Second, people who have read a lot of an author's work may (also may not, but may) become fixated on certain assumptions about that author's work which may close them off to interpretations which first time readers may be more open to.

We need readers of all levels of experience with an author and all stages of knowledge about that author's life to have the richest possible discussion of a work. To suggest otherwise is, in my not so humble opinion, to do damage to the possibility of the best possible discussion.

[Everyman]

Bill wrote: "...even at my mature age of 46,..."

If that's mature, I must be ancient!

[Silver]

I have to say how impressed I am with the powerful way in which Wharton truly uses the physical environment and the setting of the novel to further enhance the mood of the characters, and how much of a mirror the landscape and background is.

I thought there was so much depth within that scene in which Ethan is walking Mattie back from the dance, and they are going past the cemetery. There was some beautiful writing within those passages and it really did convey that feeling of how much a prisoner Ethan is within his own life.

Before someone made mention of how at this period of time marriages were so often like traps, but for Ethan it is not just the state of his marriage or his wife but the town itself which has hold of him and how oppressed he is. As the narrator mentioned prior it was said all the smart ones got out, while Ethan stayed behind.

I cannot help but find the name itself Starkfield to be quite ironic.

And I think a lot was conveyed, in that moment, while he is there lying in the darkness and watching the movement of the candle light from Mattie's candle as she still moves through the house. While there is that tangible physical attraction to her, and the allure of her warmth, friendliness, vibrancy and youth, the contrast she makes against his sickly wife, I think she also does represent something else.

Ethan is stuck within this rather dreary town and she is someone who comes in from the outside she is a part of a different world, she offers the idea of escape (though not strictly in the literal/physical sense) but for Ethan she is like a glimpse to the outside, an offering of hope that is fate may not lay simply in the waiting graveyard.

[[deleted user]]

Silver, I think that so nicely written. And good points to consider.

I know Ethan left the home place for classes in Florida.
I have to ask myself what was more important to him: the opportunity to learn new things? I realize when he's back on the homeplace, that the day-to-day work takes a good deal of his time. But he has the time to walk Mattie to and from dances and such once in a while....had he really wanted to, he could have made the time to learn things on his own there in Starkfield. Or at least it seems so to me.

He left while his folks were doing ok. When he came back...eventually the land was his. Would he be able to part with the land? Or once it was his responsiblity, the family land, would he be able to sell it? Or would he care too much? I just absolutely love the homeplace. I would never advocate the family selling it. Once it was his, he would have different responsibilities than when he had left for those classes.

And Zeena. Yes. Is she really sick? Or does she see the doctors and buy the medications so that Ethan never has enough money ahead to leave. There was that section that read (if we can believe the narrator had some facts to back up his suppositions) that Ethan had thought of leaving. Perhaps Zeena worried about her ability to hold onto him in a bigger town, in the larger world with more opportunites.

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "Silver, I think that so nicely written. And good points to consider.

I know Ethan left the home place for classes in Florida. ."

I find it interesting that he wanted to be an engineer, and it's an engineer who tells his story. Not sure what this means, but surely it's not coincidence.

[Silver]

Adelle wrote: And Zeena. Yes. Is she really sick? Or does she see the doctors and buy the medications so that Ethan never has enough money ahead to leave..."

That is an interesting point. I had not considered that before. Though I know in books around this period of time, it is common for women to have these obscure vague illnesses which often is attributed to thier weak nerves.

It also strikes me as a bit curious that it seems that Zeena is already suspicious of Mattie, she would take this time to choose to leave, and during a time in which it was ensured she would not be able to return until the next day.

It feels as if there must be some intention on her part in doing this, unless she is simply tired of having to be around the two of them and rather just get out of the house and get away from Ethan.

It would be interesting to have more background/insight on the state of the marriage before it had come to this point.

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "Everyman wrote:..I find it interesting that he wanted to be an engineer,"

Adelle, you might want to edit your post to take out what seem to me several spoilers, and save the message in your word processor until we get to the remaining chapters of the book. At that time, I'll be more comfortable discussing your idea.

[[deleted user]]

Silver wrote: Post 207

Silver, I couldn't agree more. You wrote: "It would be interesting to have more background/insight on the state of the marriage before it had come to this point."

I'm wondering...Pure supposition:


Zeena's not stupid. She must see that Ethan is taking more and more interest in Mattie. Ethan has NEVER scrubbed the floors for her, Zenobia. She's older than him. Desperate to hold onto him. The way things are going....... Zenobia determines that she must take action BEFORE it's too late.

Zenobia decides to go see a doctor in another town. 'Though she knows, probably better than Ethan, that Ethan is interested in Mattie, she knows Ethan is an honest man and won't cheat on her. Leastwise, she doesn't think he will cheat on her yet. And Mattie, Mattie is a relative of sorts. She determines she can leave the two of the together for the night. Anyway, it's a risk she has to take, because if things keep going the way they're going....

A doctor in another town is best because Ethan won't be able to ask him any questions. Ethan'll just have to accept whatever Zenobia tells him the doctor said. And Zenobia "knows" [because she's decided] before she leaves Starkville that the doctor's going to say that Zeena needs more help. A stronger girl.

Mattie's just going to have to get herself a husband, because Zenobia needs a different girl. Yep, that's what the doctor will tell her. A stronger girl. And Zenobia can find a girl that doesn't wear red ribbons in her hair and doesn't make Ethan smile and laugh.

Zenobia remembers how Ethan used to smile and laugh with her. Maybe she won't have Ethan as he was back when they was first married, but at least she'll still have Ethan.

[[deleted user]]

Everyman wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Everyman wrote:..I find it interesting that he wanted to be an engineer,"

Adelle, you might want to edit your post to take out what seem to me several spoilers, and save the messag..."

I was thinking that it didn't give anything away. Nonetheless, quick like a bunny, I copied it to my computer and deleted it from this thread. I'll go back and re-read it.

I THOUGHT it was safe.....but I could so very easily have been mistaken. Thanks for the heads up.

Adelle

Edit: Mmmm, I went back and re-read it, and I don't think it gives away anything that hasn't been revealed by the end of chapter 4.

Sigh. And here I was so excited that working off your idea I had found a way for the book to make sense for me.

Still, you're the master (I mean that in the best possible sense), and I'll leave the post deleted.

RE-EDIT: It took me long enough, but I see what you are referring to Everyman. Thank you for being there to point it out quickly. I appreciate it.

[MadgeUK]

Bill wrote: Was the word 'sex' ever used in books of this era other then to specify gender? Was the word 'lust' very often used at all?

Lust is a biblical word but I don't know offhand how often the word sex was used to describe sexual acts/intentions and not gender. Interesting point. It was not used in Victorian literature (thought there were many euphemisms) but I suspect it was used by the Edwardians because they were trying to liberate themselves from Victorian mores.

[MadgeUK]

Silver wrote: "Lily wrote: "Silver wrote: "...But I do not think we can say Ethan's own thoughts, desires are completely chaste."

At least, as perceived by our narrator. (Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately..."

Good textual analysis (No 200). (I was the one who introduced the word carnal BTW.) I think you have convinced me that Ethan's thoughts and actions were less than innocent but that his attraction to 'Mattie was about more than the simple desire to have sex with her'.

[MadgeUK]

Bill wrote: I have been using lust in the dictionary sense: uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite. And I do believe that so far Ethan is demonstrating illicit sexual desire and he is not controlling it very well, at all.

Is kissing or dreaming about someone uncontrolled lust? (We cannot control our dreams.) Surely the poor man has to go a bit further than this and we have not seen any evidence of this so far. Fortunately wives cannot see their husband's thoughts (nor vice versa) but if they were to react jealously against the odd kiss or a bit of flirting I fear most marriages would be in trouble! I know that in my youf I was kissed and flirted with in a non-lustful way many times - with affection, in friendship, in fun, perhaps by men like Ethan who were starved of affection in their marriages. (My gardener kissed me in full view of his wife yesterday, I wonder if he was being lustful or just being affectionate on my birthday!:O)

Perhaps we are getting too bogged down on this question and should move on to other aspects of the character's lives? Surely there is more to EF than a Harlequin love story about passion and romance? If not, I wouldn't be reading it:). Major themes and Motifs often listed for EF which are in my Notes are:-

Determinism/Naturalism
The Land and the People
Isolation
Lost potential
Passion and Transgression
Illness and Disability
Snow and Cold
Loss and Transience
Winter as a stifling force

Ref Silver's post 204 and taking up the theme of Naturalism, which is something Wharton uses a lot in her novels, as opposed to being Romantic, I think perhaps she is using the Ethan-Zeena-Matty triangle as a hook to hang the idea on that these are natural events determined by the environment in which these people live. Life is not a romance. Stuff happens. The land is cold and needs warmth, if people are cold they need warmth. The land fails, marriages fail (as Wharton's did). The land needs renewal, people need renewal. We are not being asked to judge the morality of what is happening but to look at the facts (as Wharton sees them) - the environment, which can be natural, cultural, or situational, is the force that decides men's fates. Starkfield winters are cruel, so are the people who live in them. Ethan felt from a young age that he was alone in his sensitivity to natural beauty and his curiosity about science and Starkfield is not a nurturing place but one that destroys.

[MadgeUK]

Good-oh Bill!

A young man will be sexually attracted to a pretty young woman whether he's married or not. Its inevitable biology.

Yes, but as it is natural (a naturalist writer would say) we should not moralise about it any more than we should moralise about the lives of animals.

Any correlation between harsh land and harsh or puritan ethics is coincidental.

Not in this instance. The NE landscape, its historical background of Puritanism and Calvinism is intended to be part of the story and how it effects the protaganists. Otherwise Wharton would not have mentioned them so early in the book or so often.

...transgressions, in order to be committed by 'good ethical people', first involves denial of the sexual nature

Again, naturalism is not about morality and I think that Wharton is expecting us to look beyond these narrow confines.

...we don't know the extant of Zeena's illness...

It is not just Zeena's illness we are expected to consider but the illness of the society around her - what made her like this, do others have 'illnesses', why do landscapes like this create dour people (as they are often supposed to do).

Snow and Cold -Can be a bonding force

Yes, but this clearly isn't how Wharton saw it and we are trying to deal with her views of how it affected her characters. And perhaps how it affected her as she escaped from NE to France and warmer climes. Had your wife written the book the town would not have been called Starkfield:).

Loss and Transience - Its everywhere isn't it?

Again yes, but how has it affected Wharton's characters? How did the loss of her husband to mental illness affect her as she was writing? We do not have to know about the details of her life but we can speculate about how she seems to feel about such things, and perhaps look up why she might do so.

(Gosh, I am not sure that you should be reading VW whilst reading EF - you will get all confabulated!)

[Silver]

Again, naturalism is not about morality and I think that Wharton is expecting us to look beyond these narrow confines. "

Yes, I agree. Based on my experiences in reading Wharton, I do not think it is her aim, or goal that the readers make moral judgements against her characters (though considering some of her characters this cannot be helped often) but what Wharton is after, I think rather is examining the way in which the conditions of society have placed the characters into the position in which they find themselves and how by their life and circumstances, and the expectations and judgements of the status quo they have been lead into making these choices and actions which may ultimately in the end prove counter to their achievement of finding a more fulfilled happiness.

[MadgeUK]

Exactly Silver. Thanks for that insight. I think naturalism is quite a difficult concept because we ourselves are often confined by the narrow concepts of society, especially if we are religious and have had a lot of moral proscriptions placed upon us. It can be difficult to be open minded when looking at what would normally be called 'immoral' or 'unethical' actions.

For instance, as folks know, I have a socialistic turn of mind and when looking at Starkfield and the folks in it, my thoughts turn to communes where land and chores are shared, and sometimes wives are shared too. Desperate situations seem to require desperate remedies and perhaps Zeena, Mattie, Ethan and Dennis would have been better living communally, whatever 'morality' Starkfield had imposed upon them. But then I wasn't writing the story! :) (After my divorce, I applied to live on a commune with my four children but I wasn't accepted.)

[Silver]

One thing I would like to mention because I find it to be of some interest is the name Zenobia itself. I find that often authors do choose names with specific intention and the names themselves can offer insights into the characters and offer their own hidden meanings. The name Zenobia sticks out as being quite an uncommon name and having a rather exotic ring to it.

At first I recognized it from Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Blithedale Romance" but in the historical context, Zenobia was a Syrian Queen who led a revolt against Rome, and conquered Egypt, until she was eventually taken captivate by Rome. After which it is said that she was released and placed upon an estate to live out the rest of her life.

Just what this means for the story, I cannot yet say, but I certainly do not think it was a coincidence.

[MadgeUK]

I find it to be of some interest is the name Zenobia itself. I find that often authors do choose names with specific intention...

Well spotted. No, it wasn't a coincidence. See my post about this in Background & Resources.

[MadgeUK]

Bill wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: For instance, as folks know, I have a socialistic turn of mind and when looking at Starkfield and the folks in it, my thoughts turn to communes where land and chores are shared, and ..."

In a communal situation all would share all!!

Regarding morals and naturalism. I think embracing naturalism and guilt free sexuality does not necessarily involve reducing emphasis on keeping promises and commitments

Again, you are hung up on morality and ethics. Natural situations where custom and law do not play a part would not necessarily have promises and commitments.

Regarding puritanism its influence on people. I don't know how believable that is going to be that it makes people more isolated and alienated, etc.

Notwithstanding your own experience, there has been a great deal documented about the aridity of a Puritan lifestyle and no doubt Wharton was drawing upon this history. The very word puritan means 'scrupulous and austere in religion and morals' and Puritans have historically been connected with dourness and austerity - being against music and theatre for instance.

Are you sure that Wharton sees the harsh landscape as a factor in peoples personality

Wharton has written about the effect of the NE landscape upon her when she lived in Boston and in her gardening books she extols more exotic landscapes as being life-affirming. Again, there is much written about the character of, say, Scandinavian people in contrast to, say, the people of Tahiti. Surely the landscape in which we live, especially if we are born there, can have an affect upon our character? I come from the rugged northern clames of England and that scenery lifts my heart far more than that of the tidy, rolling countryside of the south. I am much more a Kathy than a Tess!

[MadgeUK]

Not at all Bill - no rules whatsoever, as your fancy takes you, or not, as the case may be:). But this has nothing to do with EF!

[[deleted user]]

MadgeUK wrote: "Not at all Bill - no rules whatsoever, as your fancy takes you, or not, as the case may be:). But this has nothing to do with EF!"

I lean strongly towards the readers response theory. Anything the reader thinks is of importance when reading the book IS important when reading the book. If the reader thinks morality and ethics are important, then they are.

Silver wrote, "in reading Wharton, I do not think it is her aim, or goal that the readers make moral judgements against her characters"

But that's exactly where reader's response comes into play. It matters not at all what Wharton intended. It's not just the author. It takes two to tango. The reader brings whatever the reader wants to bring, legitimately.

WHAT an engaging discussion you people are having. I am so impressed with all of you.

On a different note, it occured to me this morning, might the fact that Ethan is so physically damaged represent that he is emotionally damaged, that he's an emotional cripple?

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Adelle, I think you may be on to something with your observation, "On a different note, it occurred to me this morning, might the fact that Ethan is so physically damaged represent that he is emotionally damaged, that he's an emotional cripple?"

And I assume that you're referring to the older Ethan that we met at the outset of the novella too?

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Knock me down with a stick, folks, but we are already at nearly 230 postings in just the first part of our group read and discussion of "Ethan Frome"! I am so proud of all of you! Congratulations!

[MadgeUK]

It matters not at all what Wharton intended. It's not just the author. It takes two to tango. The reader brings whatever the reader wants to bring, legitimately.

If this was entirely the case this discussion could be 'off topic' all the time and we could discuss whatever we wanted to discuss. The author's intention must surely count for something. I could think that this book was about a Martian in Yorkshire but it clearly isn't. I could think that when Wharton says it is cold it is really hot or that Ethan is not damaged in any way at all but is a perfectly happy guy!

Is there any textual evidence that Ethan is emotionally damaged? We learn from the Introduction that he was considered 'smart' but that he didn't get away because of the accident, not just the accident to him but to the others he had to care for. He had a 'careless powerful look' and there was 'something bleak and unapproachable in his face' but all we seem to have about his mental state at the beginning is that in Chapter 1 'He had always been more sensitive than the people about him to the appeal of natural beauty. His unfinished studies had given form to this sensibility and even in his unhappiest moments field and sky spoke to him with a deep and powerful persuasion. But hitherto the emotion had remained in him as a silent ache, veiling with sadness the beauty that evoked it. He did not even know whether any one else in the world felt as he did, or whether he was the sole victim of this mournful privilege.'

The Narrator 'began to understand why Starkfield emerged from its six months' siege like a starved garrison capitulating without quarter' but he did not understand how, 'if that were the case, how could any combination of obstacles have hindered the flight of a man like Ethan Frome?'

We know that one obstacle was that Mattie came to live at Ethan's home and he 'learned that one other spirit had trembled with the same touch of wonder: that at his side, living under his roof and eating his bread, was a creature to whom he could say: "That's Orion down yonder; the big fellow to the right is Aldebaran, and the bunch of little ones- like bees swarming- they're the Pleiades..." or whom he could hold entranced before a ledge of granite thrusting up through the fern while he unrolled the huge panorama of the ice age, and the long dim stretches of succeeding time. The fact that admiration for his learning mingled with Mattie's wonder at what he taught was not the least part of his pleasure.'

Was it Starkfield or Mattie which was an 'obstacle' at this stage and was she ever someone he could share his life in Starkfield with on an intellectual basis?

Wharton mentions Orion and the Pleiades and these stories may therefore be relevant to ours:-

http://www.suite101.com/content/orion...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades...

[[deleted user]]

Absolutely. Remember on the very first page the narrator notes "a lameness checking each step like the jerk of a chain"

[I think someone already alluded to this.]

By the 2nd page, the narrator reveals that he already knows what caused Ethan's physical disabilities.

N: "Why didn't HE?" [get away]

Harmon Gow: "Somebody had to staty and care for the folks"

N: "And then the smash-up?"

Harmon chuckled sardonically. "That's so. He HAD to stay then" (9, 10).

If the Ethan drawn in the center story is an accurate representation of the real Ethan (lol), and if, as it would seem, that the center story is being told from Ethan's point of view (Ethan's thoughts, feelings, sights are described), then Ethan is somehow emotionally crippled. As Bill notes, if this is Ethan's point of view, and nary of word of concern for his wife's feelings, his sick wife's feelings, then there is something emotionally wrong with the man. Not a thought expressed either, of what might be best for Mattie's life. Ethan, Ethan, Ethan. Don't emotionally healthy, emotionally whole people, take into consideration the feelings and lives of their spouses, and wards....Don't they take into consideration the feelings of other people period? I think so. Granted, they may determine that they are going to go ahead and act as they choose anyway......but at least they give some THOUGHT to the feelings and futures of other people. Ethan knew that Andrew Hale couldn't really afford to advance him any money...mmm... I couldn't find that verified actually...but Ethan knew that he really had no place in asking him for the money....the town knows when Ethan is hard up for money; I would imagine that Ethan had a fair idea when Andrew Hale might be a little short, too

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "(Gosh, I am not sure that you should be reading VW whilst reading EF - you will get all confabulated!)"

LOL! So what's wrong with being "confabulated", Madge? Certainly you, of all people, are not proscribing some moral law applicable to reading habits? (I won't even try to describe what I sometimes try to read concurrently -- and from which I do get some weird head conversations!)

This discussion, while a bit rambunctious, certainly is touching on many things that concern us as humans. I am also fascinated by the diversity with which we respond to a text. Whereas Bill sees Ethan as not sensitive to what Zeena is thinking, I read passages such as "Zeena, one day had surprised him at the churn and had turned away silently with one of her queer looks" (24) and as "Of late, however, since he had reasons for observing her more closely, her silence had begun to trouble him" (42) and, finally, "At other times her silence seemed deliberately assumed to conceal far-reaching intentions, mysterious conclusions drawn from suspicions and resentments impossible to guess. That supposition was even more disturbing than the other; and it was the one which had come to him the night before, when he had seen her standing in the kitchen door. Now her departure for Bettsbridge had once more eased his mind..." (43) all as keen awareness on Ethan's part of what might be going on in Zeena's mind. Albeit, he does manage to stifle his acuity in his wishful and selfish dreams for time with Mattie.

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Madge, I think you are correct. What we know about Wharton, and what we know (and it may be little, or not very much) about Wharton's authorial intent is always important to the reader's overall experience when reading a particular work. For me, it is extremely rare that I go into a read or re-read of any author's work with no preconceived notions. I do see what Adelle is alluding to and agree that my reading of that particular work is certainly colored and shaped by my own interpretations and 'response' to the written words.

For example, my interpretation and emotional response to Tess' experiences in the novel, "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" is based in large part upon the authorial intent of Thomas Hardy, and my own knowledge of how some women were treated in Victorian England. The palpable disgust and loathing I direct toward Angel and Alex is not simply the creature of my own invention; and in my opinion, Hardy wrote the novel to evoke precisely that sort of response in his readers.

How we process, interpret, and experience what we read is a fascinating (and quite likely endless) topic and discussion in and of itself. Cheers!

[[deleted user]]

Oh, Madge, I've got to be somewhere at 10.

Looking forward to returning to computer this evening and engaging again.

You raise good points, but I think they can be rebutted. Smile. Perhaps not, but I think so, and look forward to trying.

[MadgeUK]

Christopher wrote: "Knock me down with a stick, folks, but we are already at nearly 230 postings in just the first part of our group read and discussion of "Ethan Frome"! I am so proud of all of you! Congratulations!"

I think it helps a lot that you are here Chris, like a benevolent father:).

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "As Bill notes, if this is Ethan's point of view, and nary of word of concern for his wife's feelings, his sick wife's feelings, then there is something emotionally wrong with the man. "

Adelle -- "something emotionally wrong" -- well, isn't that a bit hard to judge? Could it be emotional self protection, such as implied by the passage: "When she spoke it was only to complain, and to complain of things not in his power to remedy; and to check a tendency to impatient retort he had first formed the habit of not answering her, and finally of thinking of other things while she talked."

I don't intend to be simplistic. I have watched men self protect from their wives' addictions by burying themselves in work, justifying it as necessary for economic and caregiving reasons, and, in contrast, forsake promising careers and/or indulge in over-eating to assuage the burdens of an afflicted child. What makes any given path "emotionally wrong" or right -- in particular here, as readers, does it serve us to judge Ethan Frome's path or is it equally useful to simply recognize it as one of the ways a human being coped with living?

[MadgeUK]

Lily wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "(Gosh, I am not sure that you should be reading VW whilst reading EF - you will get all confabulated!)"

LOL! So what's wrong with being "confabulated", Madge? Certainly you, of a..."

Just a joke Lily! Although I do think that, emotionally, reading two powerful novels at once can sometimes 'confabulate' anyone, let alone a sensitive, caring soul like Bill:).

Re Zeena's temperament - see my post No 13 in Background and Resources. EF may be craftily using some inferences to the Pierce family here.

Re Ethan coping with his life, as many do, this too is a naturalistic approach to his character - we do what we have to do. It's fate, determinism. (Say those who believe this, like Wharton.)


Strange, most commentators say that Ethan Frome was written by Wharton as a sympathetic character and that she was unsympathetic to Zeena but he is coming off very badly here, puritan souls that y'all are! I begin to feel very sorry for the guy and want to give him a cuddle. LOL - I think I'll go and put a red ribbon in my hair:).

[Lily]

Christopher wrote: "...what we know (and it may be little, or not very much) about Wharton's authorial intent is always important to the reader's overall experience when reading a particular work. "

Chris, while personally I am inclined to agree with you, some of the newer philosophers, especially of the postmodern schools, will proclaim the view that a text, once released to the world, stands independent of its creator. I think there is a validity in that view, as well. And, maybe they are not self-contradictory.

[MadgeUK]

There is certainly validity in that view Lily but I do not think that it makes for such an interesting discussion because taking authorial intent and background into account brings into play so many other factors and you learn so much more, especially about history. Also, if I like an author and a particular work by them, I like to 'honour' them by taking into account background info. Just as I like to honour critics and scholars who have spent a lifetime researching and analysing an author and their works. But that, I know, is a very personal p.o.v. and many people like to come to a work as a 'virgin' which, of course, is fine too. (I don't think I was ever a virgin even when I was a virgin but then I don't remember.......:O)

[Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder]

Lily wrote: "Christopher wrote: "...what we know (and it may be little, or not very much) about Wharton's authorial intent is always important to the reader's overall experience when reading a particular work. ..."

Yes, Lily, I am aware of the postmodernist philosophy, and please bear in mind that this is simply my own very personal opinion, but I think 'they' are absolutely full of crap. Ughhh! It is, again to me, absolutely absurd that a work conceived, carefully crafted and written by a human being can then stand completely independent of its creator. It seems, to me, to be flawed logic on its face. But that is just me. Again, Lily, please don't take offense at what I am saying; my umbrage is directed at postmodernism. ;-)

Also, it is my understanding that this view is not as widely held currently in academic circles as it once was.

[MadgeUK]

It is, again to me, absolutely absurd that a work conceived, carefully crafted and written by a human being can then stand completely independent of its creator.

I find it absolutely insulting Chris! Anyone would think that great works were written in a trance! When we think of the blood, sweat and tears expounded by some writers, and the enormous amount of research that some do, I think it flies in the face of reason to think that they are not somehow 'there', inbetween the pages, as it were. We constantly evoke the presence, and sayings, of our loved ones, alive or dead, so why not a favourite author? I am not a very spiritual person but I know that I often have such feelings about authors and artists, even more so if I visit their homes and see their possessions - I once had the weirdest feeling in the artist Monet's home, where all the great Impressionists gathered in his yellow kitchen...And to see Charlotte Bronte's little dress at Haworth... I wish someone here had visited The Mount during a long, cold Bostonian winter...

I think it must be interesting (although I rarely do it) to read a work without knowing anything about it and analyse it accordingly but eventually I would want to know what the author put into it too and what others thought of it. Just as 'no man is an island entire of himself', so no book is one, IMO.

Oh dear, we must get back to poor old Ethan Frome!

[Silver]

I think that chapter four offers some rather interesting insights into the relationship of Ethan and Zeena, and into Ethan himself, I cannot help but wonder (and wonder what Freud would think) about the somewhat disconcerting cycle that Ethan has been brought into and the way in which Zeena seems to have in a way taken the place of Ethan's mother (and he does describe her as looking like a much older woman) and how much the circumstances of his mother repeated themselves with his wife.

He was first held back from leaving Starkfield becasue he had to stay behind and look after his ailing mother when Zeena, who was said to be a cousin was brought in to help assist look after his mother. And it was through that experince in which they had formed thier realtionship.

Now Zeena has fallen ill in much the same way as his mother, and a cousin of his is brought in to help look after her and Ethan begins to be drawn to Mattie. I found it quite interesting that Ethan speaks about the effect of Mattie's voice upon him and how each time she speaks, it sounds like something new, and just a few pages later, he makes similar remarks upon how he was effected by Zeena's voice in the house during the time of his mother's illness.

It is also interesting that in considering the marriage to Zeena Ethan reflects "He had often that since that it would never have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter"

For again it seems that it is that oppression, isolation, and bleakness of the winter that is one of the contributing factors to pushing Ethan towards the warmth and brightness of Mattie.

[Silver]

Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "I think that chapter four offers some rather interesting insights into the relationship of Ethan and Zeena, and into Ethan himself, I cannot help but wonder (and wonder what Freud wo..."

Yes, it does seem that Ethan's choice to marry Zeena was a bit impulsive (much like his now feelings for Mattie) he was moved by his fear of being left alone after the death of his mother, and well he wanted that warm, fresh new presence during the cold of the winter.

And the very fact that now he would contemplate that if only it had been spring, he would not have married her suggests that he was not truly moved by love to we Zeena, and things in both of thier lives did not go as they would have planned.

As well as much as Ethan seems to want to leave Starkfield I wonder about the ways in which he finds reasons to hold him back. It is as if a part of him does not want, or cannot leave. First he had his mother as an excuse, which may be seen as legitimate enough, but after that he had made plans to leave with Zeena, but he had trouble finding buyers for the farm, and he could not find just the right sort of town for Zeena to live in. Because he says she could not bare to live somewhere where he perceives she would be looked down upon.