The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Ethan Frome
Edith Wharton Collection
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Ethan Frome: Week 1 - Part I: Introduction & Chapters 1-4
Bill wrote: "But also, would a woman in those days leave her husband all alone, in a cozy farmhouse, with a pretty young maid? "Well, she wasn't really a maid, but a relative. And if she thought about it all, she presumably though Ethan was an honorable husband. But it's more likely that she was so fixated on her visit to the doctor that she didn't even consider anything else, since she could hardly have ordered either one of them out of the house for the night, and surely she couldn't be expected to put off her visit to the doctor.
Bill wrote: " Obviously any marriage where the man loathes his wife as Ethan does his, is a bad marriage. "Do others agree with the description Loathe"? If so, I need to go back and re-read. From my reading, that's too strong a term. Certainly he regrets the marriage, it is unrewarding to him and Zeena is more of a burden than a helpmate, and whatever love there was there seems to have been replaced by an acceptance of obligation and duty, but I don't see him actively loathing her. Do others?
I have, like I think most of us, developed some sympathy for Ethan and dislike for Zeena. But maybe that's not fair.Ethan is, after all, pretty much a failure. Yes, his farm and mill are hardscrabble, but a competent and hardworking farmer should have made more of the opportunity of owning the mill and land. He is not that poor -- he owns and can presumably feed and support several horses, both a (gig? forget what it was that he sent Zeena off to the train in) and a log hauler, he has a part-time hired hand, he's been married to Zeena at the time of the first four books for a number of years, why isn't he more successful? Why hasn't he made himself more successful?
And have we considered that maybe Zeena is really ill? It wasn't until fairly recently that fibromyalgia was accepted as a legitimate medical condition (and even now my spellchecker doesn't accept the word!), but even today I have known people who have suffered with it for years without any help from the medical community. Without trying to diagnose Zeena's condition, that would seem to fit as one possibility, and would explain why she keeps trying new doctors and possible remedies without getting relief (even today there's not that much we can do about it). It's very hard to live with and care for people with chronic illnesses who have little hope of relief, and very easy after months or years to blame them for not being well. Sure, it would nice if Zeena would accept her illness cheerfully and uncomplainingly, but is it that surprising that she doesn't?
Of course, it's also possible that she's a total hypochondriac, but we shouldn't assume that. I don't feel that Wharton has given us the information to know one way or another.
Christopher wrote: "In my opinion, and interpretation of the novel so far, I think Ethan not so much lusts for Mattie in the more general sexual sense, but that he aches for the vitality of her life and her overall ha..."I agree. What a contrast between Mattie and Zeena! No wonder he prefers the company of the one over the other. Who wouldn't?
Mod
I also agree that we really don't have enough information to firmly diagnose Zeena's physiological or psychological condition. And I'll wager that this situation mirrors exactly what must have weighed heavily upon Wharton herself with respect to her concern for her husband's condition.
Adelle wrote: "...Just my personal take, but I don't think that the narrator comes across as having something of a 'feminine' sensibility because we know that the author is a woman. I think that even had we believed the author to be a male, that the narrator still has that 'feminine' sensibility."Until it was called to our attention, I didn't think of the narrator as particularly 'feminine,' although when it was, I could see the plausibility. The narrator just seemed rather nosy, and I have certainly known men of that ilk. ("Curious" would be the more neutral term.)
Adelle wrote: "Lily wrote: 'the cold red of the sunset behind winter hills,'If you remember, could you let me know where in the story (roughly) that line is?"
Well, I actually picked it up here from Bill's comment 99, but I had been sensitized enough to "red" that I had already noticed it in the text, which is p. 23 in my B&N Classics edition, about five pages into Chapter 1. Besides the "red" flag of "love," "heart," "blood," "life," "death," "sexual," (oh, how contradictory and ambiguous our symbols become!), I read "sundown" as a premonition of an ending, in contrast to "dawn," a beginning of a new day. I overlooked the possible "delight"/"warning" dichotomy until the ensuing discussion.
Christopher wrote: Mattie is like a beautifully colored butterfly gently flitting through sunbeams streaming through the dew-wet forest on a lovely spring day. She represents all of the goodness in life.That is beautiful Chris - very Hardy-like:). And I agree that Ethan is lusting after life more than he is lusting after Mattie. He had once hoped for better things than to be a farmer - to be a scientist, to have an altogether different, modern life. As well as being pretty and vibrant, Mattie represents the outside world, the American Dream. We can all have such dreams, married or not.
Mod
Exactly, Madge! I loved that little bit when the 'engineer' loans Ethan his book to read. You can tell that Ethan very much wants to read it and learn new things.
Madge, I also think you may have hit on something important here that I'd not thought of before--that Mattie represents the "modern" and new, and Zeena represents the "past" for Ethan. Ethan seems to be caught in the middle.
I am a little bit behind, I just started reading today, but it is not a very long book so I hope to be able to quickly catch up. I have to say at the start I was immediately taken in by the beautiful sweeping descriptions of the landscape and the picture she paints. How vivid the scenes are, in addition to how reflective the natural environment is upon the characters themselves. That bitter coldness of the winter and the sense of isolation which often such weather can inspire does seems to mirror the state of Ethan's marriage with Zeena. As the love between them seems to have evaporated, and she has become frozen within her sickly state.
Someone already mentioned the sense of foreboding which immediately comes off within the first few chapters in the book.
Mod
"That bitter coldness of the winter and the sense of isolation which often such weather can inspire does seems to mirror the state of Ethan's marriage with Zeena. As the love between them seems to have evaporated, and she has become frozen within her sickly state."
Very well put! Glad to have you joining in too, this has become a very energetic and interesting discussion. Cheers! Chris
Christopher wrote: "Silver, I just loved the observation in your second paragraph of post no. 129--"That bitter coldness of the winter and the sense of isolation which often such weather can inspire does seems to mi..."
Thank you! I am happy to be able to join in. I am a bit of a fan of Wharton and have been wanting to read this one for a while. So I am glad it was choosen and at a time in which I could fit it in. I look forward to the continued discussion.
I agree, Bill, that Ethan doesn't demonstrate any pity for Zeena. I think emotional communication between them has broken down, if it ever really existed in the first place. The narrator notes Ethan's reticence in the intro and Zeena is described as being 'silent' while observing acutely. We know Zeena used to try and talk to Ethan and he didn't respond. They need counselling :).
Adelle wrote: "Great opening, I thought: "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." It seems to the reader, (me), that th..."
Did you read Wharton's Intro? She explains why the story seems to have been put together bit by bit.
The real merit of my construction seems to me to lie in a minor detail. I had to find means to bring my tragedy, in a way at once natural and picture-making, to the knowledge of its narrator. I might have sat him down before a village gossip who would have poured out the whole affair to him in a breath, but in doing this I should have been false to two essential elements of my picture: first, the deep-rooted reticence and inarticulateness of the people I was trying to draw, and secondly the effect of "roundness" (in the plastic sense) produced by letting their case be seen through eyes as different as those of Harmon Gow and Mrs. Ned Hale. Each of my chroniclers contributes to the narrative just so much as he or she is capable of understanding of what, to them, is a complicated and mysterious case; and only the narrator of the tale has scope enough to see it all, to resolve it back into simplicity, and to put it in its rightful place among his larger categories.
You've had a deprived childhood, Bill. :D It was standard in high school English classes for many years, and accounts for many people hating (what they think is)Wharton into their adulthood. :D :D
Bill wrote: "I know I cheapen what he is feeling by saying "He's lusting after the maid", but thats just the puritan coming out in me when I see someone is about to be hurt, abandoned, not given a second thought by those in rapture and bliss. "OK, we have 2 Puritans here. But that's what Wharton is saying, that people get trapped into lives of misery by society's cultural standards, and women in particular, because they have no other choice. Zeena is as trapped in her marriage as Ethan is. And before that she was trapped in the role of caretaker.
Bill wrote: "Is there anyone else other then me who has only read this novel to the 4th chapter? If I'm the only one, I'm going to finish reading it so I'm not the only person talking halfway in the dark."I just started reading the book today, so I acutally haven't read up to the fourth chapter yet since I am reading other things as well as this. I plan to try and get it finished within a weak so I will be caught up with everyone by the time the next chapter sectons are posted.
Bill wrote: "I didn't go to high school. Unfortunately my education ended in the 8th grade, and other then a couple years of vocational college, my education is pretty much self education. "Aw, you missed reading Frome, Silas Marner and Hamlet when you understood close to zero about them
Actually, Bill, I find your POV refreshing, because you haven't read it before.Ethan has more than lustful thoughts for Mattie. How about companionship and kindness and liking some of the same activities? But I'll hold off roasting you until we get further into the book.
Rochelle wrote: "Actually, Bill, I find your POV refreshing, because you haven't read it before.Ethan has more than lustful thoughts for Mattie. How about companionship and kindness and liking some of the same ac..."
You make some good points here. While one the one hand it does seem rather heartless for a man to be engaging in an affair while his wife his on the sick bed, on the other hand that would be very taxing on Ethan particularly when thus far at least there does not seem to be much evidence of Zeena giving him any sort of affection or companionship.
Mattie can offer Ethan something his wife seems unable to, and not just physical attraction. But she can be a companion to him, as well as her seemingly warm and friendly nature is a sharp contrast to what we see of Zeena. In the way in which it says she notices things without remarking on them only to save it to bring up a week later makes her appear as something of a spiteful woman.
And while her anger with her husband can be understandable, it also seems as if Zeena takes some pleasure in her knowing more about his activities than he is aware, and of the way in which she does seem to slyly spy upon him. Rather than outwardly confronting him she seems to be storing up her bitterness.
Mattie does also offer something new, something different, a change, a bit of excitement within what is painted as the rather bleak backdrop of the town.
Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "I just started reading the book today, so I acutally haven't read up to the fourth chapter yet ..."
Ok, I'll be happy to wait for you. I think maybe you and I are the only ones w..."
I have only read up to chapter four and I am going to wait to finish it and read other stuff in the meantime. I like the sense of anticipation.
Silver wrote: "...Mattie can offer Ethan something his wife seems unable to, and not just physical attraction. But she can be a companion to him, ..."I don't know why Bill sees none of this. Onward.
Mod
Ha Rochelle! You know its the puritanism in me! :)
Onward?! Not yet. I was considering whether or not to respond to Silve..."
Simply put, Bill, I do not see Ethan as uncaring for his wife, Zeena. I think Ethan is significantly more complicated than that, as are Zeena and Mattie. This is not a novel in black and white, it is a novel about the greyness of the human situation. I'm really not at all sure that Wharton would want you to pigeonhole her characters, I'm not convinced that she could have herself. Just my two-cents.
Bill wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "SI don't know why Bill sees none of this. Onward. "Ha Rochelle! You know its the puritanism in me! :)
Onward?! Not yet. I was considering whether or not to respond to Silve..."
I would like to clarify that I am not offering up this as a justification for Ethan's actions, but simply as way of explain what may have led him to this point and the reasons and motives for his actions. I am not saying I am sympathetic to Ethan, but trying to understand things from his side.
Mod
I certainly didn't say that she wouldn't welcome your perspective. I did say, however, that I was not sure that she'd welcome you pigeonholing her characters. 'Tis your interpretation though, and that's fair enough for me.
Mod
I do understand your point, Bill. I do, really. I also think you are making some fine points, and I very much appreciate your fresh, new-eyes perspective on this novella. You have caused me to re-evaluate and reassess my own opinions about the plot and characters and that's a very good thing.
Mod
Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "What about the symbology of the broken glass pickle dish? This scene, to me, is just loaded with meaning--."That their relationship, like the dish, will wind up broken and pu..."
Or perhaps hidden?
On another subject, one close to many of our hearts-cats. As soon as I read about the cat eyeing Mattie and Ethan, I thought of another novel, published in 1869, by Zola,Therese Raquin.
The novel is about adulterous lovers living in claustrophobic conditions and a black cat, Francois, plays a small but important role of unnerving the male lover by his stare.
Solemn and motionless, [the cat] was looking at the two lovers with wide-open eyes. He seemed to be examining them carefully, without blinking, lost in some sort of diabolical trance.
I imagine Wharton read Zola. The two books would be interesting to read together, given they examine similar themes in different ways.
Christopher wrote: "Bill wrote: "Rochelle wrote: "SI don't know why Bill sees none of this. Onward. "Ha Rochelle! You know its the puritanism in me! :)
Onward?! Not yet. I was considering whether or not to res..."
I agree. Plus, he takes care of her! I think we need to consider when this was written and stop making it so personal.
Silver wrote: "Mattie can offer Ethan something his wife seems unable to, and not just physical attraction. "I am ambivalent at this point about whether Ethan actually wants to go to bed sexually with Mattie, or whether he just cherishes the warmth and life her company brings to an otherwise cheerless life. We (at least in the US) live in a society where fairly causal sex is for many young people the norm rather than the exception, where there is nothing surprising or eyebrow lifting about a married man wanting a bit of a cuddle outside of his marriage. But I'm not so sure that this is the world Wharton is writing about. And I see no evidence at all that Mattie would consider giving her presumed virginity to Ethan.
Mod
Bill wrote: "What is there good to say about Zeena from the perspective of Ethan"First of all, of course we so far only have the perspective of Ethan from the unnamed engineer. But more important, why does he need to say anything good about Zeena? She's his wife. He made a promise to God to take care of her for better or worse, and if he took that vow seriously, and he's a pretty serious man, then he has an obligation he took on and, while it may have turned out for worse more than for better, he's going to fulfill his duty to her.
Jaime wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "What about the symbology of the broken glass pickle dish? This scene, to me, is just loaded with meaning--."That their relationship, like the dish, will wind up broken and pu..."
Or perhaps hidden? "
Doesn't need to be an or. Can be an and.
Mod
I am ambivalent at this point about whether Ethan actually wants to go to bed sexually..."
I am pretty much solidly in your camp on this issue and interpretation too, Everyman. While there may well be some level of lustful fantasy spinning about in Ethan's mind (and I'm not convinced of that yet), it is far from clear that Mattie has anything like that kind of interest in Ethan.
Christopher wrote: "Jaime, you mused, above, that the broken glass placed up high on the shelf might indicate that their relationship might end up "hidden." You may well be correct, as it sure as hell means something..."It has far greater significance than we can verbalize, I think. If it represents his wife he wants to neatly put it away and out of sight rather than discarding it.
Bill wrote: "Jaime wrote: "I think we need to consider when this was written and stop making it so personal. ..."
I certainly hope no one takes anything I say personally. It occurs to me that since this novel..."
For what it's worth, Bill, I think you've been doing swell, offering up perspectives that engage the other readers. The best way to get the most out of the book is to discuss it six ways from Sunday...consider many views.
As we don't know what is true and what is not true in the center story, wrestling with the characters is about the only way to discover who they are for us each individually.
Keep on doing what you're doing. I wouldn't think you've offended anyone.
I certainly hope no one takes anything I say personally. It occurs to me that since this novel..."
For what it's worth, Bill, I think you've been doing swell, offering up perspectives that engage the other readers. The best way to get the most out of the book is to discuss it six ways from Sunday...consider many views.
As we don't know what is true and what is not true in the center story, wrestling with the characters is about the only way to discover who they are for us each individually.
Keep on doing what you're doing. I wouldn't think you've offended anyone.
Mod
I certainly hope no one takes anything I say personally. It occurs to me that since this novel..."
Bill, you have nothing whatsoever to fret over here. Your enthusiasm is infectious and sets a wonderful example for all of us. As I said earlier, I love that you're coming at this with a completely fresh set of eyes and no preconceived notions. Carry on, my friend, carry on.
Mod
Sasha wrote: "Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "I just started reading the book today, so I actually haven't read up to the fourth chapter yet ..."
Ok, I'll be happy to wait for you. I think maybe you and I are th..."
I'm with those of us reading this for the first time. So it feels a little ragged, especially trying to figure out whose POV is being presented and is it reliable -- is it Ethan or the narrator we are listening to telling the story? If the narrator, has he portrayed Ethan accurately or is the Ethan we observe the projection of the narrator's observations?
Rochelle wrote: Did you read Wharton's Intro? She explains why the story seems to have been put together bit by bit." Post 135
Well, yeah. But I don't think she accomplished her goal in the way that she said she wanted to. I don't see the story being built "bit by bit," I don't see evidence of the "roundness" she wrote that she wanted. Except for the prologue, there aren't any glimpses of the story " through eyes as different as those of Harmon Gow and Mrs. Ned Hale." Since there is no attribution of source once the prologue is past, there is just no way to tell what part of the vision has some basis and what parts are simply made up by the narrator as part of his vision.
(Edit: I will concede that the words that Ethan spoke to the narrator as they rode together would count as source material. And I count those as solid information that I can count on.)
Well, yeah. But I don't think she accomplished her goal in the way that she said she wanted to. I don't see the story being built "bit by bit," I don't see evidence of the "roundness" she wrote that she wanted. Except for the prologue, there aren't any glimpses of the story " through eyes as different as those of Harmon Gow and Mrs. Ned Hale." Since there is no attribution of source once the prologue is past, there is just no way to tell what part of the vision has some basis and what parts are simply made up by the narrator as part of his vision.
(Edit: I will concede that the words that Ethan spoke to the narrator as they rode together would count as source material. And I count those as solid information that I can count on.)
Mod
Wharton moved and functioned in a milieu with substantial awareness and pressures relative to societal standards! LOL!
Mod
Hence the old adage of "Keeping up with the Joneses."
Well, I will grant you that, at least in EF (which is the only book I've read of hers), she's made me wonder about the character's motivations and about the characters' character ... or lack thereof.
Bill wrote: "Jaime wrote: "I think we need to consider when this was written and stop making it so personal. ..."I certainly hope no one takes anything I say personally. It occurs to me that since this novel..."
I have enjoyed your comments, Bill. I am looking at the story is quite a different way, thanks to you. :)
Bill wrote: "I certainly hope no one takes anything I say personally. It occurs to me that since this novel..."You're not aware of what Wharton is bringing to this book concerning her own life and marriage, and her view of the roles of women. You said you hadn't read her before. Why don't we read more before you state what you think the book is about?
And we've already established that the story is a patchwork of anecdotes from the people whom the engineer(?)met while being stuck there. It's not just Ethan's POV.
Mod
So I'm caught up now...it seems to me that Mattie and Ethan in many ways act more as close friends. This is something Zeena doesn't have with Ethan on any level. And Ethan's initial attraction to Zeena really was that she came in and started taking care of him in the way one might normally see a man taking care of a woman (by that I mean she comes in and takes charge to alleviate his worries and responsiblities). Ethan doesn't have any intention of leaving Zeena as evidenced by his thoughts passing the gravestones and wondering if the same epitaph would be written over him and Zeena. At only a year Zeena changed from being the strong caretaker to practically an invalid. Ethan will live up to his responsibilities to take care of her but at the same time Mattie offers friendship (and possibly more) along with a breath of fresh air. She's someone he can talk to, relate to, and act his age with (as opposed to Zeena who has become a burden more like the mother he had to take care of rather than a wife). I wonder if Zeena cared so much about what Ethan was doing, etc. before Mattie showed up? It's no wonder he's looking for companionship.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
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Ethan Frome (other topics)
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The Awakening (other topics)
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Someone mentioned it above I think, but this novella simply must represent the terrible unhappiness and desolation that Edith Wharton must have felt in her deteriorating relationship with her husband Teddy, who seems to have begun going mad.
It is really interesting to me that what we've read so far has really managed to evoke some fairly visceral feelings from all of us. Again, I have to believe that this is precisely as Wharton intended.