The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Ethan Frome
Edith Wharton Collection
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Ethan Frome: Week 1 - Part I: Introduction & Chapters 1-4
Mod
First, I really want to echo Madge's comment (no. 46) about how much foreshadowing Wharton uses in these early chapters. It really leaps off of the pages.
What did everyone think of Wharton's choice of naming the town where the tale takes place, "Starkfield"? It really fits the scene and the tenor of the story, doesn't it?
In the prologue, the narrator describes his first impression of Ethan Frome-- "There was something bleak and unapproachable in his face..."
Further on in the prologue, the narrator recounts-- "During the early part of my stay I had been struck by the contrast between the vitality of the climate and the deadness of the community." This was a telling observation to me.
When Ethan drives the narrator from Starkfield to Corbury Flats each day, the narrator observes that Ethan seemed "...a part of the melancholy landscape, and incarnation of its frozen woe, with all that was warm and sentient in him fast bound below the surface; but there was nothing unfriendly in his silence." One can't help but wonder what has occurred that has made Ethan so sad, remote and so withdrawn?
I love Wharton's ability to firmly place the reader in the landscape. One passage that really stuck in my head was her description of Ethan's farm-- "Beyond the orchard lay a field or two, their boundaries lost under drifts; and above the fields, huddled against the white immensities of land and sky, one of those lonely New England farm-houses that make the landscape lonelier." It really feels cold, bleak, and desolate.
Now we jump back in time, some 20+ years, and Wharton introduces Mattie Silver to the reader, and she's virtually the exact opposite of how we first see Ethan, isn't she? Full of life, animated and vivacious.
Finally, we meet the third member of the story--Zeena. God, what a horror this poor woman is. It seems to me that she simply isn't capable of being happy herself, nor does she seem interested in the happiness of those around her.
I have to say that I completely agree with Adelle's comment above (no. 49) that the story feels realistic. In some sense, we probably all know people just like Ethan, Zeena, and Mattie, and quiet, clannish little towns like Starkfield. As a side note, my father's side of the family is from Massachusetts, and they all tended to be quiet and taciturn folks, not given to idle gossip or telling tales out of school. I think Wharton has wonderfully captured that stolid Puritan ethic of these people in "Ethan Frome" so far.
Adelle wrote: "This just occurred to me. The letters are all "addressed to Mrs. Zenobia--or Mrs. Zeena--Frome" (9). As it happens, I have an Emily Post [Miss Manners} book from long ago. As a married wo..."
Or is it that Edith Wharton had not read or disregarded Emily Post? I wonder how she deals with this in her other novels?
Christopher wrote: I have to say that I completely agree with Adelle's comment above (no. 49) that the story feels realistic. In some sense, we probably all know people just like Ethan, Zeena, and Mattie, and quiet, clannish little towns like Starkfield. As a side note, my father's side of the family is from Massachusetts, and they all tended to be quiet and taciturn folks, not given to idle gossip or telling tales out of school. I think Wharton has wonderfully captured that stolid Puritan ethic of these people in "Ethan Frome" so far. You have hit several nails on the head here Christopher, especially the mention of a Puritan ethic. The repetition of the colour white, in the landscape, homes and church also emphasises purity. I was reminded of the large white, starched collars worn by the early Puritans.
And as well as realism there is naturalism, which is a feature of Wharton's writing, perhaps because it linked with her intense interest in gardening and growing things. Like many of her contemporaries, she believed in the power of heredity and of the influence of the environment people were born into. As we would put it nowadays, she believed in nature not nurture. So the stark landscape into which Ethan Frome and Zeena were born also affects their character. Zeena, for instance, seems to be imbued with the cold of the New England winter climate, she is lacking colour and is frigid. Mattie is an outsider and so can reflect a different landscape and upbringing, as well as a warmer, friendlier one.
One of the questions that I find Wharton poses is how are we to judge these characters (if judge them we do) - if they are entirely the product of nature, can they escape their fate? Should we expect them to? Do they have Free Will or are they Calvinist Puritans believing in predestination? Do we approach them from a New England p.o.v. or from our own?
Mod
I like her writing style. It seems elegant and simple. Great for storytelling. She really d..."
Bill, I think the POV from Chapter I on is actually that of Ethan himself. So the "loathing" you're sensing is that of Ethan's. The narrator's role ended at the end of the Introduction or prologue. At least this is how I am seeing it.
Christopher wrote: Bill, I think the POV from Chapter I on is actually that of Ethan himself. So the "loathing" you're sensing is that of Ethan's. The narrator's role ended at the end of the Introduction or prologue. At least this is how I am seeing it. ..."Yes, we are reading a story within a story, which becomes more obvious as we read on I think. There are two narrators here. This piece explains it better than I can:-
http://www.shmoop.com/ethan-frome/nar...
The first line of the Introduction is the telling line:-
"I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story."
It is very unreliable narration and we have to take account of that. Perhaps Wharton wants us to come to our own conclusions and not rely upon the narration?
We do know that he asked her to marry him after all.
Exactly! So there must be another story, another way of looking at Zeena...... :).
I think Zeena has possibly become as cold and unresponsive as the landscape Bill but we do not yet know whether she was once a Mattie or if it is the landscape/environment that damages all Matties except the 'smart' ones that get away...I think we will have to be on the lookout for other POV all the time in this novel!
Mod
Mattie using the dish,
Mattie and Ethan breaking it accidentally, and
Ethan reassembling the pieces and putting it high up on the shelf where it can't be seen as broken.
I'd love to know what others thought of this scene!
Bill wrote: "This is my first Edith Wharton novel and first time reading it..and I haven't yet read past chapter IV.
I like her writing style. It seems elegant and simple. Great for storytelling. She really d..."
Bill, you're a perceptive reader. Since this is your first time reading, and you've come with this p.o.v. I feel safe in saying that just that points (the antipathy towards Zenobia, the sympathy for Ethan)[2 other points also],are what changed so much for me during my 2nd reading.
I like her writing style. It seems elegant and simple. Great for storytelling. She really d..."
Bill, you're a perceptive reader. Since this is your first time reading, and you've come with this p.o.v. I feel safe in saying that just that points (the antipathy towards Zenobia, the sympathy for Ethan)[2 other points also],are what changed so much for me during my 2nd reading.
Christopher wrote: (post 60) " I think the POV from Chapter I on is actually that of Ethan himself. So the "loathing" you're sensing is that of Ethan's. The narrator's role ended at the end of the Introduction or prologue. At least this is how I am seeing it."
I don't see it as Ethan's POV, or as "what really happened."
I think it's just Wharton's skill as a writer that makes the reader feel that the narrator is no longer there.
I wondered about it myself and had to go back and read the end of the prologue. Wharton makes such careful word choices, so I have to believe that her words here were carefully chosen: "It was that night that I found the clue to Ethan Frome, and began to put together this vision of his story.
So as it read it, it is all put together by the narrator. And then, of course, there is the way Wharton ends the book to consider as well. In two or three weeks.
The story, we recall is being built bit by bit.
Also, it doesn't read anything along the lines of "this is my vision of what really happened." It's still a "story."
I find that to be important.
I don't see it as Ethan's POV, or as "what really happened."
I think it's just Wharton's skill as a writer that makes the reader feel that the narrator is no longer there.
I wondered about it myself and had to go back and read the end of the prologue. Wharton makes such careful word choices, so I have to believe that her words here were carefully chosen: "It was that night that I found the clue to Ethan Frome, and began to put together this vision of his story.
So as it read it, it is all put together by the narrator. And then, of course, there is the way Wharton ends the book to consider as well. In two or three weeks.
The story, we recall is being built bit by bit.
Also, it doesn't read anything along the lines of "this is my vision of what really happened." It's still a "story."
I find that to be important.
MadgeUK wrote: ".post 62.."
I just read your link. I like it too. It says well much of what I was thinking. However, I don't believe that it is ever spelled out exactly what the narrator does for a living. We simply know (correct me if I'm mistaken) that the narrator "had been sent up by [his] employers on a job connected with the big power-house......and a long-drawn carpenters' strike had so leyaed the work that I found myself anchored at Starkfield...for the best part of the winter" (10).
I'm not exactly sure how I think this is important, that we don't KNOW that the narrator is an engineer, but I feel that it is.
I have to say, we never know what Ethan's pov is. We only see that which the narrator, thru collected gossip, occasional facts, and sufficient leisure and boredom (the delays due to the carpenters strike), has cobbled together.
I can understand how he [I'm sure the narrator is a "he" so I have no compunction in using that pronoun] is "seeing" everything thru Ethan's eyes.....because he's seen Ethan almost every day at the post office, and he's ridden with him, so I think it understandable that he would cast the story around Ethan.
I just read your link. I like it too. It says well much of what I was thinking. However, I don't believe that it is ever spelled out exactly what the narrator does for a living. We simply know (correct me if I'm mistaken) that the narrator "had been sent up by [his] employers on a job connected with the big power-house......and a long-drawn carpenters' strike had so leyaed the work that I found myself anchored at Starkfield...for the best part of the winter" (10).
I'm not exactly sure how I think this is important, that we don't KNOW that the narrator is an engineer, but I feel that it is.
I have to say, we never know what Ethan's pov is. We only see that which the narrator, thru collected gossip, occasional facts, and sufficient leisure and boredom (the delays due to the carpenters strike), has cobbled together.
I can understand how he [I'm sure the narrator is a "he" so I have no compunction in using that pronoun] is "seeing" everything thru Ethan's eyes.....because he's seen Ethan almost every day at the post office, and he's ridden with him, so I think it understandable that he would cast the story around Ethan.
Regarding Bill's comment...Post 63....concerning I think any decent person, even if they are no longer attracted to their wife, will care how she's feeling while he is panting after the maid
See posting I'm about to make over on the Background thread.
See posting I'm about to make over on the Background thread.
MadgeUK wrote: "Adelle wrote: "This just occurred to me. The letters are all "addressed to Mrs. Zenobia--or Mrs. Zeena--Frome" (9).
As it happens, I have an Emily Post [Miss Manners} book from long ago. Madge asked: Or is it that Edith Wharton had not read or disregarded Emily Post? I wonder how she deals with this in her other novels?
Oh, I think she would have known good manners. (Smile. Emily's great-grandmother???) Interesting. Since you asked, I thought about that, and I think that Wharton wouldn't have had Zenobia come out of character simply to further Wharton's push for women's rights. So I go back to the two or three possibilities I put forward in post 52.
As to her other novels, I haven't read any.
As it happens, I have an Emily Post [Miss Manners} book from long ago. Madge asked: Or is it that Edith Wharton had not read or disregarded Emily Post? I wonder how she deals with this in her other novels?
Oh, I think she would have known good manners. (Smile. Emily's great-grandmother???) Interesting. Since you asked, I thought about that, and I think that Wharton wouldn't have had Zenobia come out of character simply to further Wharton's push for women's rights. So I go back to the two or three possibilities I put forward in post 52.
As to her other novels, I haven't read any.
Christopher wrote: "What about the symbology of the broken glass pickle dish? This scene, to me, is just loaded with meaning--
Mattie using the dish,
Mattie and Ethan breaking it accidentally, and
Ethan reassembling..."
What a scene in that chapter, eh, Christopher? Yes.
"but through her hair she had run a streak of crimson ribbon" (47).
Oh, Madge has already reminded us of the symbolism of that red ribbon. And there it is! Run through Mattie's hair. {The Scarlet Letter...for adultery){Will there be adultery?}
Mattie using the dish even though she knows she isn't supposed to.///???Mattie using Zeena's husband even though she knows she's not supposed to???
The dish isn't broken until Ethan physically holds Mattie's tender young hand just a bit longer than necessary.
THIS is the moment the dish is broken. (Through the movements of the cat. Again...a stand in for Zeena???)
"It seemed to him as if the shattered fragments of their evening lay there" (49).
Interesting: Ethan knows nothing of the history of this pickle dish though it was a wedding gift to him and Zenobia 7 years ago. (8 years???)
Mattie knows when the Fromes got it, where it came from, and the occupation of the giver's husband. She and Zenobia must talk.
Don't you just LOVE that line, "Ethan, a moment earlier, had felt himself on the brink of eloquence;" (48) but the cat...jumping into Zeena's chair, unbidden, between them. It's like the cat is the devil's familiar/Zeena's familiar is going to make sure nothing happens. Also, I can't imagine Ethan on the brink of eloquence.
Mattie using the dish,
Mattie and Ethan breaking it accidentally, and
Ethan reassembling..."
What a scene in that chapter, eh, Christopher? Yes.
"but through her hair she had run a streak of crimson ribbon" (47).
Oh, Madge has already reminded us of the symbolism of that red ribbon. And there it is! Run through Mattie's hair. {The Scarlet Letter...for adultery){Will there be adultery?}
Mattie using the dish even though she knows she isn't supposed to.///???Mattie using Zeena's husband even though she knows she's not supposed to???
The dish isn't broken until Ethan physically holds Mattie's tender young hand just a bit longer than necessary.
THIS is the moment the dish is broken. (Through the movements of the cat. Again...a stand in for Zeena???)
"It seemed to him as if the shattered fragments of their evening lay there" (49).
Interesting: Ethan knows nothing of the history of this pickle dish though it was a wedding gift to him and Zenobia 7 years ago. (8 years???)
Mattie knows when the Fromes got it, where it came from, and the occupation of the giver's husband. She and Zenobia must talk.
Don't you just LOVE that line, "Ethan, a moment earlier, had felt himself on the brink of eloquence;" (48) but the cat...jumping into Zeena's chair, unbidden, between them. It's like the cat is the devil's familiar/Zeena's familiar is going to make sure nothing happens. Also, I can't imagine Ethan on the brink of eloquence.
Bill wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I can understand how he [I'm sure the narrator is a "he" so I have no compunction in using that pronoun] is "seeing" everything thru Ethan's eyes.....because he's seen Ethan almost e..."
Bill wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I can understand how he [I'm sure the narrator is a "he" so I have no compunction in using that pronoun] is "seeing" everything thru Ethan's eyes.....because he's seen Ethan almost e..."
Oh, I just read Bill's post 71. I like your take on the scene, too. I probably bought too deeply into the narrator's presentation of Zenobia, so I didn't see it as breaking her heart, but as breaking her marriage. And yet....I really like your take. It makes Zenobia so human. Makes me stop and rethink. Of course Zenobia, who has eyes to see, is concerned about her husband becoming more and more attracted to Mattie. Of course she has to get Mattie married and out of the house. Her marriage depends on it.
Thanks Bill. You're opening my eyes.
Bill wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I can understand how he [I'm sure the narrator is a "he" so I have no compunction in using that pronoun] is "seeing" everything thru Ethan's eyes.....because he's seen Ethan almost e..."
Oh, I just read Bill's post 71. I like your take on the scene, too. I probably bought too deeply into the narrator's presentation of Zenobia, so I didn't see it as breaking her heart, but as breaking her marriage. And yet....I really like your take. It makes Zenobia so human. Makes me stop and rethink. Of course Zenobia, who has eyes to see, is concerned about her husband becoming more and more attracted to Mattie. Of course she has to get Mattie married and out of the house. Her marriage depends on it.
Thanks Bill. You're opening my eyes.
Bill wrote: "Adelle wrote: "I can understand how he [I'm sure the narrator is a "he" so I have no compunction in using that pronoun] is "seeing" everything thru Ethan's eyes.....because he's seen Ethan almost e..."
Narrator feels feminine to me as well. But with the narrator holding what seems to be a semi-important job, with Ethan driving the narrator around in all sorts of weather...nary a word about Ethan giving the narrator a hand up into the buggy or anything.....it just seems he has to be a man.
Sure notices little details like a woman though.
Narrator feels feminine to me as well. But with the narrator holding what seems to be a semi-important job, with Ethan driving the narrator around in all sorts of weather...nary a word about Ethan giving the narrator a hand up into the buggy or anything.....it just seems he has to be a man.
Sure notices little details like a woman though.
Bill wrote: Also, couldn't help but notice Ethan's exultation in mastering Mattie's concerns and fears with the same feeling as mastering his work with logs. Again, not really a pleasant picture of Ethan.
Ah. Well. When you put it like that, it does seem to look as though Ethan is concerned with Ethan. The powerful feeling he gets riding the logs. The ego-feeding feeling he gets from Mattie. Sigh. Sigh. Sigh. I WANT to like Ethan. But can acknowledge that if Ethan wanted what was best for HER, why marriage to the most eligble young man in town might be better for her than "fallen woman" in a town full of gossips.
Ah. Well. When you put it like that, it does seem to look as though Ethan is concerned with Ethan. The powerful feeling he gets riding the logs. The ego-feeding feeling he gets from Mattie. Sigh. Sigh. Sigh. I WANT to like Ethan. But can acknowledge that if Ethan wanted what was best for HER, why marriage to the most eligble young man in town might be better for her than "fallen woman" in a town full of gossips.
Blood on her head! I hadn't thought of THAT one. Also good one.
Adelle wrote: "I was surprised by how different my reaction to the book was on this, my 2nd reading. I will post on that aspect when we have finished the book---when we're doing the wrap-up."I'm having the same experience.
Mod
While I agree that the narrator notices details like a woman (which is probably a generalization on my part), I still think the narrator is masculine for some reason. I also think that this really is a very cleverly constructed piece of work by Wharton--it just seems to be bursting with authorial intent.
I also have this sense that with the shattered shards of the pickle glass being put back up on the top of the shelf by Ethan is symbolic that things from this point forward can never be 'fixed' or 'restored', i.e., what's done, is done! Kind of Hardyan, isn't it? Fate or chance intervening--that, and combined with the actions of the protagonists and things just career forward full tilt.
Adelle wrote: "Great opening, I thought: "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." "Great opening indeed. However, as I read the first four chapters, I'm not finding that this idea gets carried through very well. The narrative is, so far, very smooth and consistent and without any obvious gaps, not at all the way I would expect a story to be if it were really pieced together from bits and pieces that were often inconsistent with each other. This is proving a bit disappointing to me; we do seem (at least so far) to have an omniscient narrator who was on the scene throughout, not an outsider coming in and putting the story together like a patchwork quilt.
We know that the engineer/narrator spent at least one night at Frome's house, but would Frome, reticent as he seems to be, really have told him all the minute details of the story (even if he remembered them from 25 years past), including for example the actual conversation between Frome and Hale when he delivers the logs?
I wouldn't even think of wondering about this if it were a "normal" novel or novelette. But by this opening Wharton presents it not as a story of her creation, but as a story told by a stranger to the town and pieced together over time from inconsistent bits and pieces. And frankly, so far it doesn't read that way to me.
Adelle wrote: "And my word! There is so little going on that the narrator notes not only Ethan's comings and goings, but the little details????The name of the magazine, Ethan's actions as he pockets it, the different names under which Mrs. Frome receives mail and who has been sending these. "
I realized on reviewing the Introduction that if we're careful readers, it removes a lot of the suspense (at least for me) from the story. Up to this point (through Chapter 4), if we hadn't had the introduction, I would have been wondering (perhaps hoping) that Zeena would die fairly soon and let Ethan and Mattie find each other, as it appears they both are inclined to do. But from the introduction we know that he is still picking up medicine for Zeena, so she is still alive, and even if Mattie is still with them, she will be an old woman by now and presumably worn out with waiting on Zeena for twenty five years.
Christopher wrote: "What about the symbology of the broken glass pickle dish? This scene, to me, is just loaded with meaning--."That their relationship, like the dish, will wind up broken and put high out of the way?
Adelle wrote: "Interesting: Ethan knows nothing of the history of this pickle dish though it was a wedding gift to him and Zenobia 7 years ago. (8 years???)Mattie knows when the Frome's got it, where it came from, and the occupation of the giver's husband. She and Zenobia must talk.
"
Excellent observation.
Bill wrote: "The narrator seems distinctly feminine to me. "Seems very unlikely to me. Would a woman be assigned in 1922 to go out as an engineer to work on a power plant, to live in a town distant from the job site, and would she have so easily accepted hospitality from a man she barely knew? I agree that there is a degree of observation of detail that feels more feminine, but I am personally persuaded, subject to further information or observations, that the narrator is male.
I didn't realize the discussion had already begun today. I'll catch up. I resent the use of a cat to symbolize Zeena. Maybe Wharton disliked cats.
I agree with Eman; the narrator has to be a man, but he has Wharton's feminine sensibilities. Just a literary device, and it doesn't bother me at all. And the pub date was 1911, not 1922.
Did Ethan really have much of a marriage to break? It was a nightmare. The Puritans needn't answer this. :)
Everyman wrote: However, as I read the first four chapters, I'm not finding that this idea gets carried through very well. The narrative is, so far, very smooth and consistent and without any obvious gaps, not at all the way I would expect a story to be if it were really pieced together from bits and pieces that were often inconsistent with each other. This is proving a bit disappointing to me; we do seem (at least so far) to have an omniscient narrator who was on the scene throughout
So I'll wade in here. This is an aspect of the book that changed for me with the 2nd reading. We're looking closely at this book as we're reading. Again, when I read it the first time, Wharton's writing drew me in and I had read "the inner story" as though it were "the true story", or to use your words, as though the center had been written by "an omniscient narrator." And I was reading fast. And the story drew me in.
But this time 'round.... the narrator has been collecting details (some searched out; some granted gratis), but the inner story...the inner story is the "vision" put together by the narrator...
I rather resent that the narrator is taking Ethan's life and "decorating" it to pass his time and solve the mystery to his satisfaction. It strikes me as though the narrator (this is my take on the 2nd reading) is treating Ethan's life as some sort of NYTimes crossword puzzle that's conveniently been put there to help the narrator pass his time.
The irony, if I'm using that word correctly, is that I only feel such resentment because Wharton has made Ethan feel real for me. [I don't think she's represented him as he is though. For me the real Ethan is back there in the prologue and in the few "facts" that have been learned. For me, the real Ethan is summed up in old Harmon Gow's remark, "Oh, as to that: I guess it's always Ethan done the caring."
The observation that "he was the most striking figure in Starkfield, though he was but the ruin of a man.....the careless powerful look he had"(8).
For me, the portrayal (2nd reading round) of Ethan in the center of the story is false....for me, it's all the embellishment of the narrator....]
For me, the real Ethan is only there in those first few pages of the prologue. For me, Ethan is that honest, solid piece of granite sticking up through the flinty, worn soil--tough soil to make a living on, but paid for, and handed down generation to generation.
And it seems to me that in creating "the vision" of the center story that the narrator has covered this rock of a man with cheap, store-bought doilies and garrishly colored crocheted cloths and has somehow concluded that whimsy trumps truth.
Just my opinion.
Mmmm. I'd like to expand on this, but feel I had best wait until the end.
So I'll wade in here. This is an aspect of the book that changed for me with the 2nd reading. We're looking closely at this book as we're reading. Again, when I read it the first time, Wharton's writing drew me in and I had read "the inner story" as though it were "the true story", or to use your words, as though the center had been written by "an omniscient narrator." And I was reading fast. And the story drew me in.
But this time 'round.... the narrator has been collecting details (some searched out; some granted gratis), but the inner story...the inner story is the "vision" put together by the narrator...
I rather resent that the narrator is taking Ethan's life and "decorating" it to pass his time and solve the mystery to his satisfaction. It strikes me as though the narrator (this is my take on the 2nd reading) is treating Ethan's life as some sort of NYTimes crossword puzzle that's conveniently been put there to help the narrator pass his time.
The irony, if I'm using that word correctly, is that I only feel such resentment because Wharton has made Ethan feel real for me. [I don't think she's represented him as he is though. For me the real Ethan is back there in the prologue and in the few "facts" that have been learned. For me, the real Ethan is summed up in old Harmon Gow's remark, "Oh, as to that: I guess it's always Ethan done the caring."
The observation that "he was the most striking figure in Starkfield, though he was but the ruin of a man.....the careless powerful look he had"(8).
For me, the portrayal (2nd reading round) of Ethan in the center of the story is false....for me, it's all the embellishment of the narrator....]
For me, the real Ethan is only there in those first few pages of the prologue. For me, Ethan is that honest, solid piece of granite sticking up through the flinty, worn soil--tough soil to make a living on, but paid for, and handed down generation to generation.
And it seems to me that in creating "the vision" of the center story that the narrator has covered this rock of a man with cheap, store-bought doilies and garrishly colored crocheted cloths and has somehow concluded that whimsy trumps truth.
Just my opinion.
Mmmm. I'd like to expand on this, but feel I had best wait until the end.
It had to be unusual at that time for a woman of the upper class to write of the rural working class, and with such understanding too. It was an early work, but I don't think she repeated it.
Adelle, you're too literal. I take it as a literary device, not that the story is the product of the narrator's imagination. In the Introduction, Wharton explains why she did this. Sorry, Bill, this is my 3rd reading (and I've seen the film.) Hard to separate the actions. I promise I'll be good.
Rochelle wrote: ".Did Ethan really have much of a marriage to break? It was a nightmare. The Puritans needn't answer this. :)
.."
But the Puritans need to answer: "I, Ethan, take thee Zenobia" and there was a courthouse and everything.
Zenobia has given Ethan the best years of her life---such as it is. Zenobia is 35 years old, teeth or no teeth. Ethan has to consider what he owes Zenobia and what Zenobia's life would be without him, and what value there is in his words, "I, Ethan..."
.."
But the Puritans need to answer: "I, Ethan, take thee Zenobia" and there was a courthouse and everything.
Zenobia has given Ethan the best years of her life---such as it is. Zenobia is 35 years old, teeth or no teeth. Ethan has to consider what he owes Zenobia and what Zenobia's life would be without him, and what value there is in his words, "I, Ethan..."
Rochelle wrote: "Adelle, you're too literal. I take it as a literary device, not that the story is the product of the narrator's imagination. I believe the film gets around the inconsistency by having a woman of th..."
I simply take what Wharton has given..."this vision" of the narrator.
Again, from the prologue, the narrator is not really looking for the truth. "I had great hopes of getting from her [Mrs. Ned Hale] the missing facts of Ethan Frome's story, or rather such a key to his character as should co-ordinate the facts I knew (11).
So.....I still think the narrator made the whole center story up.
I simply take what Wharton has given..."this vision" of the narrator.
Again, from the prologue, the narrator is not really looking for the truth. "I had great hopes of getting from her [Mrs. Ned Hale] the missing facts of Ethan Frome's story, or rather such a key to his character as should co-ordinate the facts I knew (11).
So.....I still think the narrator made the whole center story up.
But no, Bill. You bring back the freshness, you're seeing with new eyes. I'm trying to see it both ways: the way I read it a couple years ago/and the way it looks to me now (even without going beyond Chapter 4).
Now I have to go back and re-read and find out why Zenobia was taking that trip. (I forgot.)
Now I have to go back and re-read and find out why Zenobia was taking that trip. (I forgot.)
Regarding the unreliablity of the narrator: Page 17, "In the afternoon the storm held off, and the clearness in the west seemed to my inexpereinced eye the pledge of a fair evening."
The narrator misreads weather; might he not misread men, too.
The narrator misreads weather; might he not misread men, too.
Christopher wrote: "What about the symbology of the broken glass pickle dish? This scene, to me, is just loaded with meaning--Mattie using the dish,
Mattie and Ethan breaking it accidentally, and
Ethan reassembling..."
I noted that the pickle dish was red and that it seemed to be connected with the cat, who breaks it and then sits on Zeena's chair. A cat is often a symbol of witchcraft and/or bad luck. The breaking of the dish, Zeena's favourite wedding present, seems to symbolise the break-up of the marriage between Ethan and Zeena. Ethan reassembling it and putting it back on the shelf, hoping that it wouldn't be noticed, is perhaps a sign of his deceit.
Bill wrote Obviously any marriage where the man loathes his wife as Ethan does his, is a bad marriage. At this point, I haven't been given a reason to agree that his loathing is justified. Zeena appears to have lost her good looks and for some men that could be reason enough. She also appears to be a hypochondriac and that could be another cause for dislike. In a farming community the health of humans is as prized as that of animals. Ethan had also cared for his sick mother so perhaps he has had enough of sickness: 'Sickness and trouble: that’s what Ethan’s had his plate full up with, ever since the very first helping.' The predominance of illness so early in the novel seems to be an indication of the lack of vigour in the land and in the society around him, where everything is decaying. In Frome's youth the buildings in Starkfield are new and handsome, whereas by the time the narrator sees them they are old and faded - just like Zeena, and just like Ethan himself. There is a lot of disappointment and bitterness here I feel:(.
Bill's interpretation of the story so far has made me re-read it from a different angle, because at first I was very sympathetic towards Ethan and thought Zeena a whiny old cow. I have read the chapters again and I can see Bill's point of view, but I still think Zeena is a whiny old cow. It's not as though Ethan is a inveterate philanderer and Zeena his long-suffering wife. She is long-suffering, but I suspect she is something of a neurotic martyr. She suffers from "sickliness", which is "pathological" and when she opens her mouth it is only to complain, so far.
Bill says, "At this point, I haven't been given a reason to agree that his loathing is justified".. The narrator gives us plenty of hints about why Ethan may loathe his wife, she does come across as an unlikeable character. The name "Zenobia" is grating in itself (No offence to all the Zenobias out there). She finds fault, "her fault-finding was of the silent kind, but not the less penetrating for that". She is described as speaking in a "flat whine" or "plaintively" and she is "querulous". No wonder Ethan is taken by a jolly, flirtatious woman like Mattie.
MadgeUK wrote: "Bill wrote Obviously any marriage where the man loathes his wife as Ethan does his, is a bad marriage. At this point, I haven't been given a reason to agree that his loathing is justified. Zeena ..."
Definitely! Much bitterness. I like your observation about the lack of vigour in the land, Madge. The silent, snowbound landscape seems to reflect the muffled household of the Fromes before the arrival of Mattie.
I think we also get a sense of Edith Wharton's frustration with the land and its people - the wealthy New Yorker, living in Boston, looking at the depressed poverty of the outlying countryside and seeing no way out of it. I find it significant that she started building her extravagant house The Mount in Lenox (which occupied 113 acres of farmland) in 1902 when she was presumably writing or plotting Ethan Frome, which was published in 1911. The contrast between her own lifestyle and that of Ethan Frome could not be starker.Adelle has mentioned elsewhere that by 1911 Wharton was trapped in an unhappy marriage to a depressed man and this too must have affected her as she wrote. Was her husband a handsome, sensitive man like Frome who she saw deteriorating? Was she contemplating an affair as she wrote? Was she too struggling with her Puritan heritage - having a struggle between the white and the red, so to speak? Did she therefore worry if an affair would have a tragic outcome?
I find it significant too that Wharton herself was one of the 'smart' ones who got out - she escaped to the warmer, less puritanical climes of France.
I don't see her as 'looking down' Bill, just as being overwhelmed by it. I know that I have felt overwhelmed when I have seen extreme, unremitting poverty. And she would have been unlikely to have seen it in New York - you can live in a city easily and not see poverty, whereas it is on display in the country as you drive along a highway - failing crops, broken down shacks, skinny cattle etc. Sex has always taken place outside of marriage but it was much more common to be forced into marriage because of pregnancy or to be ostracised if you didn't or couldn't marry. (again cf Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter or Hardy's Tess.) This is part of the 'puritan' nature of it, not just just the chastity element which, in some societies, was not easily enforced (hence the chastity belt).
Also, in parts of Europe there has been a tradition of 'handfasting' (or 'bundling'), which is a trial marriage. It gives the couple the chance to see if they can survive marriage to each other. The handfasting usually lasted either a year and a day. At this time, the couple could either
split as if they had never been married or could enter permanently into marriage. Handfasting was considered less serious than marriage, and thus easier to break off, because no vows were exchanged until the actual marriage but, naturally, it did often lead to pregnancy. Apparently some New England folk practised handfasting/bundling:-
http://alicehodapp.blogspot.com/2010/...
Great link - thanks!
Christopher wrote: "I also have this sense that with the shattered shards of the pickle glass being put back up on the top of the shelf by Ethan is symbolic that things from this point forward can never be 'fixed' or ..." Post 81.
I've been thinking about that. That's a good way to put it, Christopher, that some things once broken can never be put back together the way it was before....if at all.
I've been thinking about that. That's a good way to put it, Christopher, that some things once broken can never be put back together the way it was before....if at all.
Post 99Bill wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I think Zeena has possibly become as cold and unresponsive as the landscape Bill but we do not yet know whether she was once a Mattie or if it is the landscape/environment that dama..."
Bill further wrote: "Maybe the landscape is oppressive only if one is alone, and if one has someone who loves them then it can look just as if it was painted.
Oh, Bill, I LOVE that! Absolutely love that. What an amazing insight.
Bill further wrote: "Maybe the landscape is oppressive only if one is alone, and if one has someone who loves them then it can look just as if it was painted.
Oh, Bill, I LOVE that! Absolutely love that. What an amazing insight.
the cold red of the sunset behind winter hills,Sometimes one reads too much into these things, but I noticed that it was the sunset, against the white New England winter, not the dawn, that is red.
Post 100 MadgeUK wrote: Ethan reassembling it and putting it back on the shelf, hoping that it wouldn't be noticed, is perhaps a sign of his deceit.
"
That, too, is a good point to ponder. I can't imagine the Ethan from the prologue being deceitful. Which, I think, then leaves me with two possibilities:
(1) the narrator made up the center story [I lean this direction]; or
(2) the events of 24 years ago and the intervening years have changed Ethan from a deceitful, duplicitous man ---you know, the guy who through clever self-interest gave up the opportunity to follow his dreams, returning from warm, cordial, Florida to the frozen New England homeplace to take care of his father who "gave away money like Bible texts afore he died" and his mother with her "troubles."
It seems to me that the horror is not Ethan's relationship with Zenobia. (I wouldn't even go so far as to say he loathes her. To be honest, I don't even see Ethan as lusting after Mattie. Or if he does, perhaps he does....he's 28 and she's wonderously attractive and compellingly alive.....if Ethan lusts after Mattie, I don't think he's conscious of it.)
The horror, I think, was that time way back, the terrible anxiety of knowing the work that needed to be done, the almost palpable dread that would fill young Ethan and kept him up nights knowing the place needed money, knowing that he couldn't usurp his father's position/Ethan couldn't bring himself to dishonor his father/he couldn't demean his father by taking over the financial decisions in the home. {Here's me, making up a center story to fit my vision of Ethan.}
And then the quiet, the unending, deafening quiet with his mother staring out that window hour after hour.
And, oh, to have Zenobia come and take care of his mother so he could keep the implications of the farms finances at bay by keeping busy outside, working, working, working....and voices in the house.
"He felt that he might have 'gone like his mother' if the sound of a new voice had not come to steady him. Zeena [ah.....it wasn't 'Zenobia' back then...it was 'Zeena'].....[Zeena] restored his shaken balance and magnified his sense of what he owed her" (41).
Now, as if this hasn't been conjecture enough, I have more conjecture. I'm rich in conjuture this morning.
See next post.
"
That, too, is a good point to ponder. I can't imagine the Ethan from the prologue being deceitful. Which, I think, then leaves me with two possibilities:
(1) the narrator made up the center story [I lean this direction]; or
(2) the events of 24 years ago and the intervening years have changed Ethan from a deceitful, duplicitous man ---you know, the guy who through clever self-interest gave up the opportunity to follow his dreams, returning from warm, cordial, Florida to the frozen New England homeplace to take care of his father who "gave away money like Bible texts afore he died" and his mother with her "troubles."
It seems to me that the horror is not Ethan's relationship with Zenobia. (I wouldn't even go so far as to say he loathes her. To be honest, I don't even see Ethan as lusting after Mattie. Or if he does, perhaps he does....he's 28 and she's wonderously attractive and compellingly alive.....if Ethan lusts after Mattie, I don't think he's conscious of it.)
The horror, I think, was that time way back, the terrible anxiety of knowing the work that needed to be done, the almost palpable dread that would fill young Ethan and kept him up nights knowing the place needed money, knowing that he couldn't usurp his father's position/Ethan couldn't bring himself to dishonor his father/he couldn't demean his father by taking over the financial decisions in the home. {Here's me, making up a center story to fit my vision of Ethan.}
And then the quiet, the unending, deafening quiet with his mother staring out that window hour after hour.
And, oh, to have Zenobia come and take care of his mother so he could keep the implications of the farms finances at bay by keeping busy outside, working, working, working....and voices in the house.
"He felt that he might have 'gone like his mother' if the sound of a new voice had not come to steady him. Zeena [ah.....it wasn't 'Zenobia' back then...it was 'Zeena'].....[Zeena] restored his shaken balance and magnified his sense of what he owed her" (41).
Now, as if this hasn't been conjecture enough, I have more conjecture. I'm rich in conjuture this morning.
See next post.
Lily wrote: "the cold red of the sunset behind winter hills,Sometimes one reads too much into these things, but I noticed that it was the sunset, against the white New England winter, not the dawn, that is red."
Good catch Lily! We have a saying in the UK 'Red sky at night shepherd's delight, red sky in morning, shepherd's warning'. Is that US saying too?
I noted the insight that the narrator somehow comes across as feminine, although probably in actuality (i.e., the "actuality" of the fiction) is a man. Is the insight because we "know" the author (who created the narrator) is a woman? (Have been wrestling recently with this issue on another book, also written by a woman.) Can we think of a male author who might have written/thought as did this narrator?The parallels to Wharton's own life and issues at the time had not occurred to me previously. Thanks for the information that laid out that possibility. It would also be interesting to consider what it means if Wharton is working out her own issues as a man (Ethan Frome), if that is what she was indeed doing, consciously or subconsciously.
Ok, admittedly I'm reading between the lines. That's what a reader does.
Towards the beginning of Chapter Four, after the description of the terrible time before Zeena came to help out, and then the time just after Ethan's mother died and Zeena was preparing to leave.
Two sentences.
"He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter...
When they married [...]" (41).
I can't but remember how Wharton used the elipsis at the end of the prologue to indicate that there was a story. Here, too, she's used elipsis.
"He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter..."
Wharton's positioning of elipsis seem to come at points that offer the reader an opportunity to fill in the details. She used a large quanity of "...." at the end of the prologue and then filled in the details of the large story through her narrator's imagination.
It seems to me that Wharton is generously offering the reader small elipsis ["..."] in order that the reader might fill in the details of the smaller stories through the reader's own imagination.
"He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter...
When they married [...]" (41).
I've come to believe that "it" references a sexual encounter between Zenobia and Ethan. She's 28. He's 21. Even at 52, Ethan is "the most striking figure in Starkfield" with his great height and "careless powerful look". It's winter. After a physically demanding day working outside Ethan strips his shirt off to wash up by the fire in the little house. I've seen the beefcake calendars of -firemen. They look very attractive.
Is Zenobia really ill? Or is it some kind of passive-aggressive tool she's developed? If Zenobia really is sickly, and she's working as a nurse, might she not know that her relatively healthy period is coming to an end. Also she's 28. How will she support herself if she can't work.
I think back to Ethan. His father giving away the Bibles. It would at least imply that his father was a religious man. One who raised Ethan with religious standards.
""He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter...
When they married [...]" (41).
There came a night....
Even before ... Ethan had asked her to stay there with him ... he had felt how much he owed her.
Conjecture, yes, but if Ethan had been religiously raised, and if Ethan and Zeena had become intimate, how much more would he have felt he owed her? Surely he would have owed her marriage.
And since that phrase, "When they married" follows immediately after that prior sentence, I think Wharton, or Wharton's narrator is letting us know that Ethan offered Zenobia marriage as a result of a physical intimacy which had happened between them.
As always, just my thoughts.
Towards the beginning of Chapter Four, after the description of the terrible time before Zeena came to help out, and then the time just after Ethan's mother died and Zeena was preparing to leave.
Two sentences.
"He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter...
When they married [...]" (41).
I can't but remember how Wharton used the elipsis at the end of the prologue to indicate that there was a story. Here, too, she's used elipsis.
"He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter..."
Wharton's positioning of elipsis seem to come at points that offer the reader an opportunity to fill in the details. She used a large quanity of "...." at the end of the prologue and then filled in the details of the large story through her narrator's imagination.
It seems to me that Wharton is generously offering the reader small elipsis ["..."] in order that the reader might fill in the details of the smaller stories through the reader's own imagination.
"He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter...
When they married [...]" (41).
I've come to believe that "it" references a sexual encounter between Zenobia and Ethan. She's 28. He's 21. Even at 52, Ethan is "the most striking figure in Starkfield" with his great height and "careless powerful look". It's winter. After a physically demanding day working outside Ethan strips his shirt off to wash up by the fire in the little house. I've seen the beefcake calendars of -firemen. They look very attractive.
Is Zenobia really ill? Or is it some kind of passive-aggressive tool she's developed? If Zenobia really is sickly, and she's working as a nurse, might she not know that her relatively healthy period is coming to an end. Also she's 28. How will she support herself if she can't work.
I think back to Ethan. His father giving away the Bibles. It would at least imply that his father was a religious man. One who raised Ethan with religious standards.
""He had often thought since that it would not have happened if his mother had died in spring instead of winter...
When they married [...]" (41).
There came a night....
Even before ... Ethan had asked her to stay there with him ... he had felt how much he owed her.
Conjecture, yes, but if Ethan had been religiously raised, and if Ethan and Zeena had become intimate, how much more would he have felt he owed her? Surely he would have owed her marriage.
And since that phrase, "When they married" follows immediately after that prior sentence, I think Wharton, or Wharton's narrator is letting us know that Ethan offered Zenobia marriage as a result of a physical intimacy which had happened between them.
As always, just my thoughts.
Lily wrote: "the cold red of the sunset behind winter hills,
Sometimes one reads too much into these things, but I noticed that it was the sunset, against the white New England winter, not the dawn, that is red."
Whatever you bring, you bring, so on an individual level I don't think one ever reads too much into these things. I can totally understand how it being sunset, not dawn, could nuance the scene.
If you remember, could you let me know where in the story (roughly) that line is? Thank you.
Sometimes one reads too much into these things, but I noticed that it was the sunset, against the white New England winter, not the dawn, that is red."
Whatever you bring, you bring, so on an individual level I don't think one ever reads too much into these things. I can totally understand how it being sunset, not dawn, could nuance the scene.
If you remember, could you let me know where in the story (roughly) that line is? Thank you.
MadgeUK wrote: "Lily wrote: "the cold red of the sunset behind winter hills,
Sometimes one reads too much into these things, but I noticed that it was the sunset, against the white New England winter, not the daw..."
Oh, MadgeUK! That's marvelous! (Aside: Here in the US, it's the sailors who are taking delight or taking warning.) When you brought that up, it just magnified the importance of Lily's observation. Oh, yes, I like that.
Sometimes one reads too much into these things, but I noticed that it was the sunset, against the white New England winter, not the daw..."
Oh, MadgeUK! That's marvelous! (Aside: Here in the US, it's the sailors who are taking delight or taking warning.) When you brought that up, it just magnified the importance of Lily's observation. Oh, yes, I like that.
Post 114 Lily wrote: "I noted the insight that the narrator somehow comes across as feminine, although probably in actuality (i.e., the "actuality" of the fiction) is a man. Is the insight because we "know" the author actuality (i.e., the "actuality" of the fiction) is a man. Is the insight because we "know" the author (who created the narrator) is a woman? (Have been wrestling recently with this issue on another book, also written by a woman.) Can we think of a male author who might have written/thought as did this narrator?
..."
Just my personal take, but I don't think that the narrator comes across as having something of a "feminine" sensibility because we know that the author is a woman. I think that even had we believed the author to be a male, that the narrator still has that "feminine" sensibility.
Off hand, I can't recall male writers who write that way. mmmm. Perhaps he who comes closest --- to my thinking --- would be Henry James. He seemed to capture the little details and almost imperceptible nuances that Wharton, too, has mastered.
Madge, Rochelle {edited. mea cupla.}, and Everyman---probably others---are more well-read than I am. They might come up with other authors.
Good question.
..."
Just my personal take, but I don't think that the narrator comes across as having something of a "feminine" sensibility because we know that the author is a woman. I think that even had we believed the author to be a male, that the narrator still has that "feminine" sensibility.
Off hand, I can't recall male writers who write that way. mmmm. Perhaps he who comes closest --- to my thinking --- would be Henry James. He seemed to capture the little details and almost imperceptible nuances that Wharton, too, has mastered.
Madge, Rochelle {edited. mea cupla.}, and Everyman---probably others---are more well-read than I am. They might come up with other authors.
Good question.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
Thérèse Raquin (other topics)Summer (other topics)
Ethan Frome (other topics)
Summer (other topics)
The Awakening (other topics)
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I'll close shop for a while, see if others have a preference, and then do the best I can.
Thanks Chris.