Breaking Dawn
discussion
the whole "vampires can't have babies" issue.
date
newest »
newest »
Olivia wrote: "my q here is. can they even have kids at all?"Depends on who you ask. If you ask me, they can't. Others may have a different opinion, though.
WEll, actually i had not given it much thought to that, and you are all right. how can that even happen! i just liked the way the author changed the whole vampires-can't-give-life thing. It makes her story different than any other story. its a change from all the rest of vampire books
In some books you can suck blood from other vamps but with twilight the whole concept made no sense! Since they have no blood IN them
absolutely true...i am only realizing this now
I know
I think it's safe to say that anything that has to do with children in this book is messed up. For instance, the baby imprinting (Claire and Jacob's Friend, Jacob and Renesmee), this whole pregnancy thing, and the immortal children.
I can say that the romance is quite good. Too bad that it is the only good thing. The character building is messy and the supernatural part is so awful.
Leslie wrote: "You're telling me after 100 years he's still got some swimmers! Give me a break!"Accroding to his personality, I dont think he used them much at all..
I like Bram Stoker's Dracula and all of old fashioned ones. They were very sexual beings,and there's nobody who ever questioned it. To much of half-minded explanations from Stephenie.
I remember that they figured out that the reason a vamp girl can't get prego by a vamp boy is b/c the girl's parts were frozen at time of change=can't make baby, I don't remember the whole it's Edward that's the prob, I always thought it was the girl. Then if it's the girls prob and Edward still has sperm THEN the pregnancy is possible, but if Stephanie Meyer says that Edward doesn't have any, then it doesn't work scientifically/magically.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Candice wrote: "Ok! Most Of these people commenting must be young LOL. Have you ever heard the phraise Of freezing your eggs? Ok, well thats how sperm donation places do it as well. The freeze the ..."Well, yeah probably, but the venom goes into every part of the body, but what stops it from destroying the sperm?
Rachel wrote: "Well, yeah probably, but the venom goes into every part of the body, but what stops it from destroying the sperm? "I think you were replying to Candice, but you got me thinking. Even if Edward had sperm left, then it was also converted to vampire tissue by the venom. And if so, it would still not be able to impregnate any eggs Bella has.
Why? SM's "no growth or change" rule. Sperm has to divide and merge with the egg cell, and according to her, it CAN'T. Just one more nail in the hybrid baby coffin.
Olivia wrote: "Rel8tivity wrote: "Rachel wrote: "Well, yeah probably, but the venom goes into every part of the body, but what stops it from destroying the sperm? "
I think you were replying to Candice, but you ..."
It doesn't, that's the problem. No matter how many ways you come at this, the pregnancy just doesn't work.
I think you were replying to Candice, but you ..."
It doesn't, that's the problem. No matter how many ways you come at this, the pregnancy just doesn't work.
oh come on guys!!there are lot of weird stuffs all over this book.when we read twilight for some instant we believe that vampires do exist without thinking about it too much.we just enjoy the novel.so why should edward having sex with bella bother you???why to pretend like a sex specialist??the whole erection thing is a shit.
Swati wrote: "oh come on guys!!there are lot of weird stuffs all over this book.when we read twilight for some instant we believe that vampires do exist without thinking about it too much.we just enjoy the novel..."
You make a good point, it is a fantasy book which means nothing in it is real. That would all be fine, if Stephenie Meyer didn't constantly try to back up her storyline using science that just doesn't work.
You make a good point, it is a fantasy book which means nothing in it is real. That would all be fine, if Stephenie Meyer didn't constantly try to back up her storyline using science that just doesn't work.
Ikr exactly my point yeah it's fiction but don't bring science into it when your in a fiddle I mean thats her folly not mine!
Swati wrote: "oh come on guys!!there are lot of weird stuffs all over this book.when we read twilight for some instant we believe that vampires do exist without thinking about it too much.we just enjoy the novel.so why should edward having sex with bella bother you???why to pretend like a sex specialist??the whole erection thing is a shit."If you just want to read it for story, and don't much care how it gets to the end, that's fine for you. But some of us like it to make sense within the story. And the way Meyer described her vampires it made no sense for a baby to be possible. That means two-thirds of the book is based on crap.
It's not a matter of "pretend like a sex specialist." (sic) You just need to know a little biology, and use some common sense. Once you do that, you'd see that Meyer didn't think this all the way through, and it just doesn't work.
Well if age is a problem, do you all ignore the fact that actual men still have sperm even if they are 100 years old?Men donot stop producing sperm... ever!
Why shouldn't Edward, if his whole body is designed to "hunt" humans?
Some predators actually inject their own eggs on the hunt, take the Dermatobia hominis as an exemple!
If Edward was just "frozen" then...I don't know how. The whole thing is a faux pas.
vamps have no blood in therefor no erection which means no pregnancy! no matter how much blood they drink it doesn't stay in him it turns into energy, the energy he uses to run, hunt, read minds whatever that's it
Keity wrote: "Well if age is a problem, do you all ignore the fact that actual men still have sperm even if they are 100 years old?Men donot stop producing sperm... ever!
Why shouldn't Edward, if his whole body is designed to "hunt" humans?"
That may be true of human males, but we're not talking about one in this case. We're talking about a 100-year old vampire, and a Meyer vampire at that. And according to SM's rules that govern her vampires, they:
1) don't produce sperm anymore, and
2) any sperm in their body at the time of transformation has been converted into vampire tissue, which can't change to merge with an egg cell.
So it's not a matter of ignoring sperm production in old men; it's rather irrelevant in regard to the argument. And I fail to see how predatory behavior equates to reproductive behavior. They are two completely different purposes. You don't impregnate what you're going to eat.
Lara wrote: "This is fiction. Anything can happen."I'm guessing you haven't read through the discussion, have you? :-)
Anything can happen, until the author writes something that says it can't. After that, she can't change her mind and put it in without opening a plot hole.
Andrew wrote: "I turn to a vampire any time i want to. i become a vampire because of how people treat me, this world is a wicked world and not fair to any body. at the snack of my finger things are made happened...."waiter? I think somebody needs another helping of meds...
Zena (zaina) wrote: "ok, so there is a lot of controversy about Edward being able to impregnate Bella. Well this is a quote from Stephanie Meyer during an interview when discussing this issue:"Most human fluids are a..."
I don't claim to understand Stephenie Meyer's whole thought-process concerning her series. However, you might want to educate yourself on vampire myth concerning hybrids--there is mythology that more-or-less agrees with her fiction. And I don't know why she went with the "no fluids" thing, but her vampires are technically not the typical vampire of myth, which are reanimated corpses. What do you have to say about the mythology that exists, given that (technically) reanimated corses--what the traditions state that vampires are--can't have babies either! So, to be fair, you need to get on the case of the cultures, who have come up with the idea of hybrids. And if you're going climb all over Meyer's case for this, you need to be fair and climb all over Rachelle Mead too--Dhampirs are vampire/human hybrids, which--by the way--are part of some of the original myths too.
Becky wrote: "I don't claim to understand Stephenie Meyer's whole thought-process concerning her series. However, you might want to educate yourself on vampire myth concerning hybrids..."The thing is, we don't care about existing vampire mythology, because Meyer created her own rules governing her vampires. Why do you think her's sparkle in the sun instead of burn up? Instead, we've been debating the unique mythology Meyer created when she wrote Twilight. And in the process of writing Breaking Dawn, she broke her own mythology. THAT'S why we're climbing all over her case.
It's not the "no fluids" aspect that prevents babies. If that were the case, guys with vasectomies would have all kinds of problems. When Meyer created her vampires, she established that they're formed of living stone, that can't grow or change. THAT in a nutshell is what sterilizes her vampires, both male and female, with vampires or humans. You can't make babies when the mechanism to create sperm and eggs is broken.
So we don't care about the mythology of other authors, because Meyer didn't follow it. We care about the mythology that Meyer created, and in the end, she didn't follow her own mythology anyway. That's why she's perfectly open to criticism.
Becky wrote: "Zena (zaina) wrote: "ok, so there is a lot of controversy about Edward being able to impregnate Bella. Well this is a quote from Stephanie Meyer during an interview when discussing this issue:"Mo..."
No one needs to "get on the case" of any other type of vampire fiction/mythology because other types of vampire have nothing to do with Twilight. Meyer created her own. She laid out her own rules. And when they became inconvenient, she ignored them and made up sloppy explanations that only made the whole make less sense. It kills her credibility as a writer IMO.
Her vampires don't have any fluids except venom and the blood they drink (which, by the way, can't "flood through their old blood ways" as per interview quote in OP, because she explicitly mentions in the books that the venom seals your vessels as it progresses through your body). Semen is a fluid, so following that logic, semen is venom. Venom acts as saliva to keep their mouths wet. Only that doesn't make sense, because a hell of a lot of kissing happened before she was turned and no negative sensation was ever noted - do keep in mind that she's licking the inside of a mouth that's covered in stuff that's capable of completely disintegrating a contact lens within hours. This same stuff makes up his semen. Even if Bella somehow didn't consciously notice any harmful side effects of having this substance inside her body, the venom would have sterilized her at least for the duration of its presence in her body.
Olivia wrote: "Caroline wrote: "Becky wrote: "Zena (zaina) wrote: "ok, so there is a lot of controversy about Edward being able to impregnate Bella. Well this is a quote from Stephanie Meyer during an interview w..."Vampire Diaries has different mythology in general from Twilight. The vampires in Vampire Diaries are essentially alive (i.e still have beating hearts, the need to consume real food along with blood and breathing is necessary) just death isn't permanent until they're killed a certain way. So Caroline's body has the ability to grow and change to accommodate a baby, but doesn't naturally because her body doesn't age past the day she died. Also in their mythology magic is the driving force for why they exist and with magic according to them nature needs to balance itself when something goes against it, like immortality. Because of this vampires aren't able to procreate naturally and their need to consume blood (life) is part of the balance. Basically saying in order to have life they must take life which means they can't give life. But Caroline's a magical surrogate so the life she's giving she didn't help create which is the loophole they're going with (still makes a hell of a lot more sense than Twilight).
With Twilight the vampires are essentially moving blocks of ice. Every cell has frozen and crystalized and cannot change from that form. This means mitosis and meiosis alike have all stopped in both genders which is where the plot hole exists. Had SM used explanations having to do with magic (like TVD) instead of biology in her cannon world hybrid babies would be possible. But it's not so we're left to try and decipher her logic, which doesn't quite add up.
Maybe he had sperm frozen inside of him, and when he had sex with the "warm" Bella, it caused his sperms cells to heat up just enough to come back to life. And maybe since he has blood in from hunting, that caused him to get an erection. People need to quit complaining about Stephanie Meyer's writings. This was one of the best pieces of writings in a very very long time. Give her some credit, I bet she could probably write better than any of you. So just leave it be, and quit complaining. Thanks :)
Ohh, and it's very possible it could be half vampire and not human because vampires have 25 chromosomes unlike humans. Which means, his DNA would have changed. Or maybe, it's just one of life's mysteries. Who knows, but SM is one of the best authors of all time.
Haley wrote: "Maybe he had sperm frozen inside of him, and when he had sex with the "warm" Bella, it caused his sperms cells to heat up just enough to come back to life. And maybe since he has blood in from hunt..."Unfortunately, Meyer did not describe her vampires as being cryogenically frozen. She said they were locked into a crystalline form. Here is her description, as found on the Twilight Lexicon site:
"They sparkle because they have turned to substance that is somewhat like diamond. Their bodies have hardened, frozen into a kind of living stone. Each little cell in their skin has become a separate facet that reflects the light. These facets have a prism-like quality - they throw rainbows as they glitter."
"Vampires are frozen in the state at which they are transformed. They do not grow older, taller, or wider, or experience any other physical change, including unconsciousness (vampires never sleep). Their fingernails and hair do not grow."
These passages mean that Meyer-pires can't make new sperm, and any sperm they had at the time of transformation has been converted into vampire tissue: i.e. living stone.
Did Edward "thaw out" and become human again after he lay in the sun at the meadow? No he didn't. He remained living stone, just a little warmer. It doesn't matter if he can get an erection or not, because he has NO SPERM that can get anybody pregnant - human or vampire. So RenFailmee is a plot hole you can sail the Titanic through.
Why is this an issue? 3/4 of Breaking Dawn is based on a fallacy - a character who CANNOT EXIST based on the author's own descriptions. It's the writer's job to make sure their story makes sense within itself from beginning to end. If they can't do that they are not a good writer. You may like the story that she tells, but that doesn't make her a good writer. The argument that we cannot give critique if we are not authors is nonsense. You've stated your opinion, likewise we have a right to state ours.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Haley wrote: "Maybe he had sperm frozen inside of him, and when he had sex with the "warm" Bella, it caused his sperms cells to heat up just enough to come back to life. And maybe since he has bloo..."Well, that's an opinion of a non-Twilight fan. If you don't like The Twilight Saga so much, why are you so into commenting something negative on nothing but Twilight posts, discussions, etc. I find it hypocritical, obviously you must be somewhat interested in it darling.
Haley wrote: "Well, that's an opinion of a non-Twilight fan. If you don't like The Twilight Saga so much, why are you so into commenting something negative on nothing but Twilight..."You know, you really shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know. Have you looked at my rating of Twilight? I liked Twilight. Probably more than was good for me. But just because I liked part of the series, am I only allowed to praise it to the heavens? Who made the rule that, if you liked part of the series, you MUST love all?
I knew there were flaws in the first three books, but I was enjoying the story so much that I let them slide. Unfortunately the plot hole in Breaking Dawn was more than I could stand, and there was no more enjoying it after that. Maybe that's why the disappointment is so great, because I enjoyed the first three books so much. For me the Twilight Saga is a trilogy, because the last book was such crap.
How is it hypocritical to give an honest opinion? I think I would be more of a hypocrite to give a glowing opinion when the opposite exists.
And consider where you are. You're posting in a discussion about a topic that is inherently controversial in the Twilight universe. What kind of responses did you expect to find?
I think Meyers picked the chromosome thing because it sounded good, not because she did any research. Having 24 chromosomes pairs in a human i.e. XXYY or XXXY occures about 1 in every 30,000
It very rare, but some humans have been born with 25 chromosomes pairs (49 chromosomes total) and only ever leads to serious problems, mainly with breathing. 25 chromosome pairs don't naturally occure. They are a genetic abnormalilty that creates serious unbalance. The same happens when it occures in animals (usually a result of cross-breeding or animals born in captivity).
And very often, it will render the subject completely sterile and unable to reproduce or result in things like autism or Downs syndrome.
Trying to suddenly explain fantasy based vampires with science is a bad idea especially by saying that they simply have 49 chromosomes.
P.S. Fun fact: Tabacco has 48 chromosomes.
Rel8tivity wrote: "..."... hmm ...
Lets say that the fluid in a vampire body has the ability to give the sperm immortality, for as long as it is within the body, but not outside of the body. And since the venom in a vampire's mouth never runs out ... it has the ability to replenish itself ... perhaps the fluid in the scrotum is also able to replicate sperm.
... ... ...
The first three books state only what is _known_ within the vampire world. Only Joham discovered that a male vampire can impregnate a human female, and he kept that gem to himself. Only Joham took the time to even bother having sex with a human female ... they were nothing more than food to most vampires. The Denali's are the only other vampires that I recall reading about that worked at being able to have sex with men and not feed on them. (And then Edward.)
There was only going to be two books when SM first wrote them. 'Forever Dawn' has the pregnancy in it. She even finished the first draft of FD before she was asked to write a trilogy, so very little has changed between FD and 'Breaking Dawn,' except that Jacob has a bigger role in BD than he had in FD.
The pregnancy was always the 'end game.'
ChelSierra wrote: "Rel8tivity wrote: "..."... hmm ...
Lets say that the fluid in a vampire body has the ability to give the sperm immortality, for as long as it is within the body, but not outside of the body. A..."
Do you know what sperm is and how it's made? It's not just something a gland secrets like saliva, but is made during the process of meiosis a derivative of mitosis AKA CELL DIVISION which according to Meyer herself stopped. End game or not it doesn't make sense, it's just a plot hole.
KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Do you know what sperm is and how it's made? It's not just something a gland secrets like saliva, but is made during the process of meiosis a derivative of mitosis AKA CELL DIVISION which according to Meyer herself stopped. End game or not it doesn't make sense, it's just a plot hole. "
https://stepheniemeyer.com/the-books/...
Now, on to the “how is this possible?” question. First of all, of course it’s not possible. None of this story is possible. It’s a fantasy story about creatures that don’t actually exist. Within the context of the fantasy, however, this is how it works:
… … …
The normal reactions of arousal are still present in vampires, made possible by venom-related fluids that cause tissues to react similarly as they do to an influx of blood. Like with vampire skin—which looks similar to human skin and has the same basic function—fluids closely related to seminal fluids still exist in male vampires, which carry genetic information and are capable of bonding with a human ovum.
----- ----- -----
I never understand how anyone can accept that a corpse can walk and talk, but then balks when it comes to the corpse being able to have sex or procreation. Go ahead and draw your line in the sand … I’m not letting anything ruin my favorite book in the series.
----- ----- -----
The first seed (no pun intended) was planted when I did Bella’s computer research in chapter seven of Twilight. Bella reads about several real vampire legends—the Danag, Estrie, Upier, etc. In the novel, I only mentioned a few of the many legends I read through. One that I didn’t mention at this point was the entry on the Incubus. The unique feature about that legend was that the incubus could father children. Hmmm, I said, and I filed that kernel of an idea away for later. When I decided to write the first sequel to Twilight (Forever Dawn), I knew it was going to revolve around a hybrid baby from the outset.
When my editor and I decided to go back and really develop Bella’s last year of high school, I did so with the knowledge that it was all going to end up with the events in Breaking Dawn. Everything I wrote was pointed in that direction.
ChelSierra wrote: "KarmaSc0rpi0n wrote: "Do you know what sperm is and how it's made? It's not just something a gland secrets like saliva, but is made during the process of meiosis a derivative of mitosis AKA CELL DI..."No ones balking at he idea just her Explaination. As someone else in this thread pointed out she specifically said vampires can't procreate because all of their cells stopped growing. That includes sperm cells sweetie. The issue lies in Meyer trying to explain things with biology, a subject she clearly knows nothing about. If she explained it with magic maybe I'd be more inclined to belive it, but as it is...
You want people to stop bringing real world concepts in a fantasy, well tell Meyer to stop and then maybe people will.
Kat wrote: "We HAVE to compare them. Human sex is the only sex we have any understanding of (well, except animal sex, but I don't see how that would help us), so it's the only way we can get any contextual und..."You could just read the book and not get picky...
Sorry, I haven't been back to GR in long time, and didn't see your reply. KarmaSk0rpi0n did an admirable job of answering you, but here are my two cents:ChelSierra writes: "Lets say that the fluid in a vampire body has the ability to give the sperm immortality,"..
SM answers this in her description of vampire fluids, which you quote, but I'll repeat here:
"fluids closely related to seminal fluids still exist in male vampires, which carry genetic information and are capable of bonding with a human ovum."
Basically, each human bodily fluid has a vampire analogue. This means there is venom-blood, venom-bile, venom-semen. That negates your theory, because semen is not sperm. Semen is fluid, secreted in the testicles. Sperm are cells, produced by meiosis. Since SM has not specifically provided a vampire analogue to sperm, we can only assume that they have been converted to vampire tissue with the rest of the vampire body.
SM also gave us more insight into the immortality of her vampires on Twilight Lexicon (https://www.twilightlexicon.com/the-l...), where she's talking about the nature of her vampires:
"They sparkle because they have turned to substance that is somewhat like diamond. Their bodies have hardened, frozen into a kind of living stone. Each little cell in their skin has become a separate facet that reflects the light. These facets have a prism-like quality - they throw rainbows as they glitter."
"Vampires are frozen in the state at which they are transformed. They do not grow older, taller, or wider, or experience any other physical change, including unconsciousness (vampires never sleep). Their fingernails and hair do not grow."
They're not immortal because they are constantly being renewed. Rather they are immortal because they are immutable. They don't die, they just continue to exist in the same state, in perpetuity. Their hair doesn't grow, nor do they age, because there is NO CELLULAR GROWTH. This is the part of SMs canon that puts the lie to her vampire-human hybrid babies. With no cellular growth, there are no new sperm produced. Any sperm cells that were present at the time of transformation have been changed to immutable vampire cells. And since they are immutable, they are incapable of combining with human ovum. So not only are female vampires incapable of carrying a child, male vampires are incapable of impregnating anybody - human or vampire.
ChelSierra wrote: "The first three books state only what is _known_ within the vampire world."...
Canon is not limited to the 4 books (5 if you count the Illustrated Guide). There are the author's own thoughts on the subject, whether at conventions, interviews or correspondence. You, yourself, quote from SM's website, so you already acknowledge other sources of information than the published books, as canon.
ChelSierra writes: "The pregnancy was always the 'end game.'"
It doesn't matter what the intent was. If a plot hole was raised in the process of getting there, then the outcome is still invalid. It's the author's job to make sure her world holds together, not the job of the reader to hold it together for her.
ChelSierra wrote: "Now, on to the "how it this possible?" question."It doesn't matter if SM dismisses peoples speculations as "this is fantasy, of course it can't happen." She still attempts to explain how it works in the context of her fantasy. Well since she's in this context, then it's open to being analyzed on a logical basis.
You can post as much from her website as you like. They still don't prove the points being discussed here. An author can create whatever rules they want when they build their world. That's what makes fantasy/sci-fi so much fun. But once they establish their rules, THEY HAVE TO STICK WITH IT. You can't have the sky be green in one chapter, then - without any explanation - have it be blue the next. And that's essentially what SM has done, in regards to vampire babies.
She's established her vampires as beings of living stone, who do not grow or change all the way down to the cellular level. She can't later say "oh, but they can have babies with humans" without introducing a huge plot hole. To date, she has not provided the explanation how only the cells in her vampire's testicles are still capable of growth. And until she provides that explanation, the plot hole stands. There should be no baby.
ChelSierra wrote: "I never understand how anyone can accept that a corpse can walk and talk, but then balks when it comes to the corpse being able to have sex or procreation. Go ahead and draw your line in the sand … I’m not letting anything ruin my favorite book in the series."
If SM had not limited cellular growth, it would have been just fine. Other vampire authors have kept procreation in their world and nobody blinks about it. But in her attempt to explain vampire immortality, SM sterilized her entire vampire species. It's not a matter of not being able to accept a fantasy concept. It's a matter of the author screwing up their fantasy concept.
And nobody is trying to ruin your favorite book. If you're good with the story despite the logical inconsistencies, more power to you. But YOU came HERE, to a forum where we're discussing some major logical holes in SMs books. What did you expect you would find here?
Orlando wrote: "What part of Fiction do people not understand. Every single person who reads any book will always have their own perception. But if they cant pull themselves out of their own mind and at least try ..."completely agree its a fiction book for a reason. People just need to enjoy it and stop dissecting the book piece by piece and just have a imagination.
Gracie wrote: "Orlando wrote: "What part of Fiction do people not understand. Every single person who reads any book will always have their own perception. But if they cant pull themselves out of their own mind a..."You're on the wrong website for that.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Breaking Dawn (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Twilight Saga: The Official Illustrated Guide (other topics)Breaking Dawn (other topics)
Well, that's one perspective. But then how does it work when she's described her vampires in such a way that it eliminates any mechanism of making a vampire baby? To me that doesn't makes sense for it to be in the book, artistic license or not.