Breaking Dawn
discussion
the whole "vampires can't have babies" issue.
Shanna wrote: "Rel8tivity wrote: "(I can't claim credit for this. Read Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex by Larry Niven.) "For those interested...
http://www.rawbw.com/~svw/superman.html"
Thanks, Shanna! I knew it had to be out there somewhere! :)
Still hilarious, after all these years.
Nurlely wrote: "SM should have just kept her theory as vampire world mystery rather than acting as a biology teacher.She should have labelled her works as romance novels rather than fantasy. Her romance is quite fascinating, once we ignore the fantasy she is serving us. "
Absolutely. At the least she should have checked with somebody to make sure her pseudo-science passed the sniff test.
I really enjoyed the first three books; it was a great romance. Then the last one shot it all to hell.
(yeah, I know, I'm spending waaay too many cycles on this...)Now, just for argument's sake, let's assume that Edward's muzzle velocity is not going to cause major trauma to Bella's unfortunate hoohah. After all, even though a human sneeze travels at 95 mph, nobody's ever had an eye put out by one.
Needle-less injection technology already exists, able to deliver drugs below the skin without a hypodermic. Velocity of the injected drug is about the speed of sound, which should be well within the abilities of vampire muscles. So even if her tissues aren't torn apart by Edward's payload, it's highly likely that the venom would penetrate into her bloodstream, initiating the vampire conversion process. Starting in a very sensitive area. I've got one thing to say:
Condoms. Industrial strength condoms.
Several comments. 1)On the erection issue: If any of you have ever read any of the Anita Blake books, Jean Claude tells her that when they drink human blood it allows then to be able to get it up, If they haven't fed for awhile, they can't. Maybe be same here. 2)Do't' forget Bella/Reneesmee aren't the first. They have been others: i.e.: Amazons. Maybe the Cullens just didn't have a personal experience or hadnt thought it through. (though Alice should have 'seen' it) 3)Meyer says that the venom only reacts on blood (the whole 'spit' issue) so the venom/semen wouldnt react to the ovum. 4)Regarding the sperm: The change allows all other parts of their body to work normally (though enhanced) why not the sperm? It may become enhanced also.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Okay, one other point we haven't thought about. Still wouldn't make vampire baby-making possible in Twi-world, but something to think about.SM's vampires are super strong. In New Moon, Alice me..."
LOL. That happens in Hancock. He actually has to make the girl jump off him before he shoots bullets through the roof of his trailer.
I feel bad for the Twi-vamps since they can't orgasm.
Theresa wrote: "Several comments. 1)On the erection issue: If any of you have ever read any of the Anita Blake books, Jean Claude tells her that when they drink human blood it allows then to be able to get it up, ..."Edward only drank blood when he was still new to being a vampire, then he became an animaltarian, like all the Cullens.
How it is 'to get it up' is not the problem here, but the inconsistency between what are written in Twilight series and what Ms Meyer answered in her interviews, when she was asked about so many flaws in her vampire world.
Rel8tivity wrote: "I really enjoyed the first three books; it was a great romance. Then the last one shot it all to hell. "I started to just enjoy the romance in Twilight series for me to be able to continue reading. SM should have written more romance novels. She can continue writing her vampire world when she finishes learning Biology lesson.
S.L.J. wrote: "LOL. That happens in Hancock. He actually has to make the girl jump off him before he shoots bullets through the roof of his trailer."LOL! Ok, I need to see that movie, now!! :)
Thania wrote: "Well, like some people were saying it could be because he already had the sperm cells he needed because he was still a virgin. So if his body stayed the way he was when he was last human, he would still have the sperm cells, since he never used them. And yes, he was still a virgin at the time. S.M. doesn't say it straight out but it's implied. And quiet well actually"Here is another case where SM's version blots out reality. SM implies that because a man is a virgin, he has the same set of sperm cells that he ever had. This also is wrong. The male body is constantly disposing of sperm - either re-absorbing it, or releasing it. And since SM is insisting her vampires simulate life, and have 'normal' sexual function then Edward has had nocturnal emissions like any teenager, or he's played with himself. Remember, he's surrounded by three mated couples, and he can read their minds. Just not realistic that he would remain 'unmoved', so to speak. So just because he's never had sex, doesn't mean he's still got ammunition available.
And I almost forgot about the chromosome incompatibility. For whatever reason, SM made her vampires have 25 pairs versus the human 23. So even if Edward still had sperm, it's another reason for RenFailmee not to exist, because the combination would not have made a viable embryo.
To muddy the waters even more, she made the werewolves have 24. The same number as RenFailmee. By SM's reasoning, the domestic chicken and the African Wild Dog can breed, because they both have 39 pairs. She really should have left the science out of it.
Or better yet, left the child out of it
Haha cool shotgun emission theory. Tho I doubt vamp-jizz can shoot at that velocity. Even for a vampire.And even if it was shot at that speed, we're not sure if it can penetrate (lol) skin or tissue or muscle and all that jazz because it's gonna be hitting more surface area and dispersed in an imprecise manner.
But it's a cool theory to think that Bella could've been changed after the honeymoon. Does it mean that she could no longer remain pregnant or what?
Rel8tivity wrote: "And I almost forgot about the chromosome incompatibility. For whatever reason, SM made her vampires have 25 pairs versus the human 23. So even if Edward still had sperm, it's another reason for RenFailmee not to exist, because the combination would not have made a viable embryo.To muddy the waters even more, she made the werewolves have 24. The same number as RenFailmee. ..."
I suppose, when SM failed Biology, she tried Math instead...
Diane wrote: "But it's a cool theory to think that Bella could've been changed after the honeymoon. Does it mean that she could no longer remain pregnant or what? "
According to SM's "kill-me-please" theory, a female vamp (Bella is now) can not get pregnant, not because they could not produce any eggs, but because their body is dead, so the uterus can not expand.
From a dictionary: Fiction |ˈfik sh ən| noun: invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.Fantasy and fiction novels are just that, there doesn't really need to be fact or sense. If we wanted facts, then fantasy books wouldn't be being published period. The "fact" is that there are no such things as vampires, werewolves, ect. So since there's no such thing as these beings, one can pretty much write whatever is in their imagination . . .because it's not fact, it's fiction.
I'm not being a smart-a**, I'm just saying, when something is based on fantasy it's not going to be factual. The ending to My Sister's Keeper made no sense to me, but it's a work of fiction and the authoress has the right to write what she pleases.
Lauren wrote: "From a dictionary: Fiction |ˈfik sh ən| noun: invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.Fantasy and fiction novels are just that, there doesn't really need to be fact or sense. If we wanted fac..."
Amen. Thanks for that :-)
Nicole di Angelo wrote: "Or better yet, left the child out of it"Amen, sister. A-to the-men. Or women. :)
Diane wrote: "Haha cool shotgun emission theory. Tho I doubt vamp-jizz can shoot at that velocity. Even for a vampire.And even if it was shot at that speed, we're not sure if it can penetrate (lol) skin or tis..."
LOL, I chose shotgun because it evoked a good image. Okay, stand back for hokey math:
If the average weight of a car is 3500 lbs, and the average human can lift and throw 100 lbs, then a vampire is roughly 35X stronger than a human. So if a human can propel a sneeze at 95 mph, a vampire sneeze could reach 3325 mph. A typical shotgun has a muzzle velocity of 1260 fps, which is about 859 mph. Just for comparison, the speed of sound is 768 mph at sea level.
Now, testicle muscles would be propelling a liquid, which has a much higher density than air: 1000 kg/m^3 for water vs 1.225 kg/m^3 for air. Typical volume for an ejaculation is 2 cm^3... Lord, is there a physicist in the house? I plugged some numbers into some calculators on the web and I got damn near light speed. Bella's lady parts are gonna go Warp Factor 9.
Wait, no, that was 986 miles/sec. Not light speed but faster than a shotgun.
Anyway, the important question is, can vampire muscles achieve the muzzle velocity of a needle-less hypodermic injector? I think it would be close. If he can throw a car through a wall, he should be able to propel 2 grams of liquid pretty darn fast.
Nazzy wrote: "Creative license?"In some ways, yes absolutely. Creative license to me is:
1) Re-imagining vampires as creatures who don't go out in the sun because they sparkle.
2) Allowing them to have an alternative lifestyle and choosing not to kill humans to survive.
3) Making them sparkle because their tissues have crystallized into a kind of living rock.
4) Making them venomous.
5) Giving them other powers beyond the typical telepathy and mind control.
But when SM declares that her vampires no longer grow or change (down to the cellular level), then insists on pushing a baby into the story, that's not creative license. That's contradiction and breaking story logic. She wrote the rules, she needs to follow them whether she likes it or not.
Lauren wrote: "From a dictionary: Fiction |ˈfik sh ən| noun: invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.Fantasy and fiction novels are just that, there doesn't really need to be fact or sense. If we wanted fac..."
I have no problem with fictional/fantasy/sci-fi/paranormal stories. I have no problem with different species in a fantasy world breeding. But just because a story is classified as such, does not give the author a blank check. There still needs to be sense and logic WITHIN that fantasy world.
Where in that definition does it say that the author, once they've fabricated their world, can violate that world with impunity? If they're trying to have their story taken seriously, not at all. It has to make sense within the story logic, or it breaks the story.
MEYER'S RULE: Her vampires do not change or grow, and this extends down to the cellular level. Once she wrote that down, vampire babies - hybrid or otherwise - went out the window. And it was Meyer who attempted to connect her world to the real world, so it's her job, not ours, to make it work.
Does she have the right to write what she pleases? Sure she does. When she's in the process of creating her world. But once established, if she starts violating the rules that she created, she better be prepared for people calling bull****. Especially when a major plot point is based on that bull****.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Lauren wrote: "From a dictionary: Fiction |ˈfik sh ən| noun: invention or fabrication as opposed to fact.Fantasy and fiction novels are just that, there doesn't really need to be fact or sense. I..."
I suppose some people decided not to read the convo when they submit their comment... ;)
I really didnt think about that. Good point, but its Stephanie Meyer and people will buy her books no matter what. It doesnt matter if it's crap, people will waste money on it. So in the end her mess up wont really matter bc people are obsessed with her story and her characters. It is a very shallow work we live in.PS I still think she should have ran the hell away when he said he wanted to drink her blood. Bella's a freak.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Anyway, the important question is, can vampire muscles achieve the muzzle velocity of a needle-less hypodermic injector? I think it would be close. If he can throw a car through a wall, he should be able to propel 2 grams of liquid pretty darn fast. "
Hahaha kudos for trying to compute it, I wouldn't have the patience.
35x! That's quite a number!
Indeed, it would be close to the velocity of the new hyposprays. Though not 100% sure the velocity is the only factor. The hypospray has the narrow shooter, I'm not sure if that is required for the velocity (because bernoulli's principle and all that jazz) or if it pierces the least amount of surface area therefore concentrating the force on area you want the liquid (and gas??) to penetrate.
I'm not as scientifically savvy as those who know how that works; plus there is also the issue of the air blast that is present in most (all?) needless injections (do males whoooosh air out as well, I can't really tell haha; does it play a specific part in the penetration or how the liquid is administered).
But if the math adds up do you think Bella would get pregnant and get turned? Or just the latter?
Because if both happened then that would be a mess.
Diane wrote: "Hahaha kudos for trying to compute it, I wouldn't have the patience. 35x! That's quite a number! "LOL, well, I'm sure my figures are pretty rough. Physics class was a loooong time ago. And I couldn't tell you if males whoosh out air, cause well, frankly I haven't really been paying attention (*blushes*)!!
You know my opinion that Edward is shooting blanks. But just for the sake of argument, let's say he's got a payload, and they can fertilize a human egg.
If the math adds up, and some venom is able to penetrate to Bella's bloodstream, there might be enough time for some of Edward's swimmers to reach the egg before the vampire conversion is complete. But once the conversion is complete, then all growth would cease. Since all tissues in a vampire's body are converted, I would conjecture that the fertilized embryo would be converted too. Therefore, Bella would carry a fertilized embryo for the rest of her existence, but it wouldn't be viable, and she wouldn't show. So not too much of a mess, eh?
Leslie wrote: "You're telling me after 100 years he's still got some swimmers! Give me a break!"Ha! That's what she said. ;)
Rel8tivity wrote: "Since all tissues in a vampire's body are converted, I would conjecture that the fertilized embryo would be converted too. Therefore, Bella would carry a fertilized embryo for the rest of her existence, but it wouldn't be viable, and she wouldn't show. So not too much of a mess, eh? "I didn't consider that the embryo might be turned, but you're right, that is most likely what would happen.
A psychologically morbid mess if you think about it.
I don't know would an embryo be converted there is a Placental blood barrier and the fetal blood and maternal blood don't mix, normally, it's likely the fetus would starve to death as the mothers circulation ceases ending the exchange of nutrients and waste products. That's assuming venom can't cross the barrier.
What about vampires giving HIV l mean they give blood and take blood so why not!
Shanna wrote: "I don't know would an embryo be converted there is a Placental blood barrier and the fetal blood and maternal blood don't mix, normally, it's likely the fetus would starve to death as the mothers c..."Hmm, that is a good point. However, I don't think there would be enough time for the placenta to fully form that separation between maternal and fetal tissues, as it's still developing until the 12th or 13th week of pregnancy. At three days, the embryo would still just be a lump of cells floating around in the uterus, and possibly with some venom. It doesn't implant into the uterine wall until about day 9 after fertilization.
WAIT. But that's a human pregnancy. RenFailmee grew abnormally fast. The one constant we have is three days for a vampire conversion. Anybody remember how long Bella was actually pregnant for?
Nice! I read so many of these great posts. There's some good discussion going on.I just want to throw in my .02.
In my vampire series, starting with Book 1, Rise of the Witch Clan, vampires can have children, but most of them don't. It's just fiction.
In fact, when I started out with this idea, I first decided that only male vampires could have children with mortal women, or some non-vampire immortal women. Then I decided, why should I make vampire women infertile & what reason would there be for it?
Overall, I have a whole different breed of vampire in my head, or an idea of the biology of a vampire. I mean, why are vampires called the "undead"? Because they're not dead. A person's heart, in most vampire lore, never stops beating before the vampire turns the person. Therefore, the person never truly dies, and would retain their bodily functions.
I mean, look at the Vampire Diaries? All they do is drink whiskey during the whole show! Vampire Lestat never could touch a drop. Yet, Stephan can. And then the Twilighters sparkle. Who cares?
I can't see why Edward can't sparkle and have sparkly or non-sparkly offspring that can fly, but Stephan can drink booze and have sex. I think it just depends on which one you're a fan of the most.
I for one was glad to see Meyer deviate from the norm. Just like i like to watch it in the Vampire Diaries.
If a writer wants his vamps to have offspring...It all just has to make sense in the story. And if an author is going to try to explain "why" they allowed child bearing to happen with vampires, they need their reasons to fit with the story line. They shouldn't just make up some nonsense reason. Or they should just speak the truth: hey, it's fiction and that's the way I wanted to write it.
Zena (zaina) wrote: "ok, so there is a lot of controversy about Edward being able to impregnate Bella. Well this is a quote from Stephanie Meyer during an interview when discussing this issue:
"Most human fluids are ..."
It's a fictional story.
Who cares how Ed gets a boner?
"Most human fluids are ..."
It's a fictional story.
Who cares how Ed gets a boner?
I think Stephanie Meyer just screwed up. She should have clarified in the series better so she wouldn't face such harsh criticism. Now it's too late.
Wanda wrote: "If a writer wants his vamps to have offspring...It all just has to make sense in the story. And if an author is going to try to explain "why" they allowed child bearing to happen with vampires, they need their reasons to fit with the story line. They shouldn't just make up some nonsense reason. Or they should just speak the truth: hey, it's fiction and that's the way I wanted to write it."Well, yes, that's what we've been saying. If Meyer had built her world properly and followed what she built, she could have put vampire babies or unicorns or vampire unicorns in and it would have been fine. It was fine that Meyer deviated from normal vampires, and I thought it was very creative. But the debate has been whether or not she contradicted what she built. I believe she did, and ended up with huge plot holes in her story. No amount of explanation after the fact could fix that. She would've had to re-write the whole thing.
Ok, I've been arguing that Meyer broke her rules when she put the baby in for a while. Let me come at it from a different angle. What would Meyer have needed to do differently if she wanted the baby to work in the story?1. Vampires are still capable of growth and change. That means Alice's hair would grow back, they'd have to cut their fingernails again, and they'd be able to sleep again.
2. No longer describe her vampires as living rock. Go with venom forming a crystalline structure in the cells, making them denser and stronger than normal human tissues, but not living stone. (She's already gone this route somewhat, in her attempts at ret con.)
3. Lose the nonsense of vampires having 25 pairs of chromosomes. In fact, no longer mention chromosomes in connection with her vampires or werewolves anymore, and stop trying to explain them with current science (unless you can really make it work).
After all that, she'll be able to claim vampire mojo that makes babies. She'd even be able to have female vampires carry babies to term. Rosalie would be very happy... :-)
Rel8tivity wrote: "Hai Lu wrote: "sm said vampires freeze when they turn into a vampirethen edward must have human sperm in him right? "
Actually, SM's first explanation was that the tissues of her vampires have cr..."
thats wat we r talking about....
'shouldnt renesmee be humam?'
Hai Lu wrote: "thats wat we r talking about....'shouldnt renesmee be humam?'"
If Edward had sperm (and that's still an if), then yes, RenFailmee should be full human. However, I haven't read anything that supports the concept of him preserving his sperm for 100 years, so I still say he's shooting blanks.
Olivia wrote: "how would she add the diff thing that she skip out?"Well, it's totally after the fact now, and of course she can't go back and re-write everything.
My comment is that if she really wanted the baby to work in her story, she would have had to re-write the saga from the beginning, with the baby in mind, and making sure nothing contradicted it. The way she did it, it felt like she added it in as an afterthought, and didn't care that she contradicted herself.
That's one reason people write fanfiction, to fix the things that the author got wrong.
Olivia wrote: "What if they forgot something that from book itself, do they have redo again, or can the authors add somthing that they miss out?"Sorry, are you talking about fanfic authors, or SM, if she were to re-write the whole Saga?
In any case, I'd have to say the same kind of vampires Meyer's decided to create, are rather the same kind of vampires in nearly all vampire fiction. Most stories revolve around the sex-appeal of a vampire and you even see the vampires as sex-symbols with a room full of a sex slaves, leading to the assumption vampires have always had the ability to have sex. Although, like it was mentioned, if they don't necessarily have normally functioning bodies, how they having sex in the first place? What I have noticed beyond that, is the lack of actual filming or writing of a precise sex scene beyond vampires. Therefore, maybe most never have sex at all. Yet, we finally have a written and filmed sex scenes of a vampire, in Twilight, and herein rises the controversy that probably should've been raised on this subjects decades ago.Otherwise, it is important to remember these stories are fiction, and with fiction, you can write whatever the heck you want if someone is willing to publish it. We can conclude Meyer's either didn't think her characters out well enough, or she had crappy publishers since they allowed such stories that had a lot of holes in them.
Olivia wrote: "CAuse i don't think SM can't redo the whole twi saga thing.."No, she can't, that's why we're left with the mess called Breaking Dawn.
Well, basically fic writers take the story, change some part, and continue writing from there. It's often very interesting seeing where things end up in these what-if situations.
If fic writers forget something, or want to fix something, depending on the site where they post, they can always re-post a corrected version. It's not like in traditional publishing, where once it's in print, that's it.
Nichole wrote: "Otherwise, it is important to remember these stories are fiction, and with fiction, you can write whatever the heck you want if someone is willing to publish it. We can conclude Meyer's either didn't think her characters out well enough, or she had crappy publishers since they allowed such stories that had a lot of holes in them. "I think the results we have are a bit of that, as well as some poor time management issues. Here's my theory about the writing of BD:
After SM finished writing Eclipse, she suddenly got the bug in her ear to write The Host, instead of working on BD. She's spending time on the set of the Twilight movie, and she's just finished fighting with the publisher over letting her put out the fourth book.
She's a busy girl and is running out of time to deliver BD. She has this big chunk of story already written (Forever Dawn). And she wants to put it out there really bad. But she wants to keep as much of it as possible, so she just ignores those parts that don't fit. She also didn't seem to work with an editor (pancakes in cereal bowl, anyone?) or give herself enough time to really work things out or rewrite things.
I think general concensus on the first three books is positive. If you look at how much material was cut out or edited from the first three, when she was working with an editor, you can see the effort it took for her to get decent results. She had the chance to really do something with BD. For some reason, she just decided that what she had was good enough, and the publisher probably didn't care at that point.
I wonder if this is why she gave up on the Vampire POV version? Plots hole and a readership expecting explanations on Vampire physiology and such..
Shanna wrote: "I wonder if this is why she gave up on the Vampire POV version? Plots hole and a readership expecting explanations on Vampire physiology and such.."Only SM knows for sure. From some comments in interviews, she seems kind of done with vampires. And considering she wrote The Host when she wasn't even finished writing her vampire series, I tend to believe that.
Olivia wrote: "just a thought. would it be better to ask SM on what she thought about the whole twi saga, & the Host.."Just look up "Stephenie Meyer Interview" on YouTube. There's lots. My reasoning is that if she was still invested in her vampires, even though the ideas for The Host came to her, she would have written them down, and saved them until she was done with her bread and butter project.
Instead, she went with the project that tickled her fancy more, leaving her fourth book to suffer from her lack of attention.
Shouldn't this question be "isn't a 19 year old falling in love with a really tiny baby a bit of an inappropriate amount of pedophilia in a YA novel?"
My perspective is: it happened in the book so it's possible.
Josiah wrote: "Shouldn't this question be "isn't a 19 year old falling in love with a really tiny baby a bit of an inappropriate amount of pedophilia in a YA novel?""
Amen. This entire series is one FBI case after another
Amen. This entire series is one FBI case after another
Josiah wrote: "Shouldn't this question be "isn't a 19 year old falling in love with a really tiny baby a bit of an inappropriate amount of pedophilia in a YA novel?""Sure, that's a valid question, but they've already done that to death in the pedophilia discussion.
And I agree with you, it was inappropriate. Imprinting was fine between adults of similar age. Imprinting with the baby crossed the line.
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