Breaking Dawn
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the whole "vampires can't have babies" issue.
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Paranormal_Madness
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Mar 15, 2013 01:17PM
Of course she can write what she wants. But what she writes still has to make sense in the world she created. She made it impossible for her vampires to have babies, yet she has a vampire baby. Simply waving off valid criticism of this series by saying “it’s fiction” doesn’t work. We know its fiction. But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything goes. ‘Anything goes’ only works if the rules in her universe state that ‘anything goes’. It’s called world-building, and Meyer failed at it.
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Meiyu wrote: "People people people.This is a book.FICTION.Everything doesn't need to be real.It's fiction.Stephenie Meyers can write anything she wants.It's her imagination.Sure,science and all of that stuff is..."
Of course this is fiction. But what makes science fiction or fantasy different from fiction set in the real world? It's a different world, with a different set of rules than what we see in RL. That's what we're relying on the author to create - a wonderful, fantastic world where strange mythical beasts and people can exist. And when they create that world, sure, she can write anything she wants, make any rule she wants. But once she lays it down, SHE HAS TO FOLLOW THE RULES!!
Meyer re-imagined vampires as sparkly creatures that don't grow or change because their tissues have crystallized. That's fine. But when she wanted to put a baby into the story, she ignored her previous rules, and just did it, without providing a reason that made sense. So maybe you were fine with it, but for a lot of people (like me) she broke the story. Writing fantasy or fiction does not give you a blank check. You need to stay within the world you created, if you want it to be believable.
Samantha wrote: "S.L.J. wrote: "Samantha wrote: "If Meyer hadn't mangled vampire mythology like she did, I don’t think anybody would have had a problem with Renesmee. Stories about dhampirs—children born from a mal..."I agree. Nephillim are truely BAD in my series. Im not ignoring the lore that has come before. Although I decided to interprete 'Giants' as to mean 'larger than life'. In other words, they aren't 20 feet tall but they are still assholes! :P
I think that that's just the way it is meaning that vampires are not designed as such to have babies as there strength is too much it is considered a human "thing" to be able to reproduce as vampires just *bite* to make newborns that's my view on things and how I see it in the book, correct me if I'm wrong.?!
Vanessa wrote: "I think that that's just the way it is meaning that vampires are not designed as such to have babies as there strength is too much it is considered a human "thing" to be able to reproduce as vampir..."The vamps in my story can have babies, but it isn't easy. :P
Toni wrote: "Thanks for making me choke on my cereal, Helkat14."
i think we're all "choking on our cereal"- *wink* *wink* ;p
i think we're all "choking on our cereal"- *wink* *wink* ;p
Meiyu wrote: "Bella can have a baby.She wasn't a vampire yet.(right??)but the problem is Edward...and didn't their baby bite Bella???Turning her into a vampire?(i read this book 2 years ago)"We never said Bella couldn't get pregnant as a human, only that Edward couldn't get her pregnant because he's sterile.
The baby did bite her, but according to Nahuel, female hybrids aren't venomous. Edward injected his venom into Bella's heart (romantic, eh?) as well as biting her.
Babyv vamps...bout as usuful as a terrorist falling off a building.
Meiyu wrote: "But didn't when Bella was holding Renesmee after she was born Renesmee bit her!?And Renesmee is a vampire baby???"Yes, but according to the statements made by Nahuel at the end of the book (when Alice introduces him to the Volturi), female vampire/human hybrids are not venomous. Male vampire/human hybrids, however, are venomous. Also, there is mention that RenFailmee bit Jacob when she was a baby, and nothing happened to him.
I think SM had a bit of a Charlie Sheen moment when she came up with the Vamp/human hybrid thingy.
S.L.J. wrote: "I think SM had a bit of a Charlie Sheen moment when she came up with the Vamp/human hybrid thingy."Yeah, heaven forbid a woman go through life without children, even if she was perfectly ready to sacrifice that.
If you believe what SM says on the subject, she intended there to be a baby from the time she wrote Forever Dawn, which she did before New Moon and Eclipse.
Fine. If so she had plenty of time to make the story logic work, like other stories with vampire children. Unfortunately, she didn't and we're left with this.
The undead people that drink blood are sparkling in the sunlight, I think any logic has gone out the window at this point.
Nicole di Angelo wrote: "The undead people that drink blood are sparkling int he sunlight, I think any logic has gone out the window at this point."Touché. :)
S.L.J. wrote: "Nicole di Angelo wrote: "The undead people that drink blood are sparkling int he sunlight, I think any logic has gone out the window at this point."Touché. :)"
True....
I have to agree with smaller group on this one. It is a fiction, and it should not be taken so seriously and should not be make such a fuss about it. My favorite TV show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer had few of these "facts" turned around as well. Main one being about The First Evil. In season 3, where it was introduced, it was able to touch people. But in season 7, in which it was main villain, it was changed to not being able to touch anything. Only because it didnt fit the story anymore. I dont think anyone made such a fuss about it, like it is being done now with Twilight.
Veronika wrote: "I have to agree with smaller group on this one. It is a fiction, and it should not be taken so seriously and should not be make such a fuss about it. My favorite TV show, Buffy the Vampire Slayer..."
True, but that is a fantasy element to a fantasy story. They never tried to explain why it was incorporial with physics or anything.
SM tried to add a scientific element to a fantasy story and it didn't work...at all.
@S.L.J. I dont follow the SM interviews or anything, so I dont know which came first, but I get the feeling she only tried to explain the whole thing (didnt do very good job, I agree) because she was pushed to it, and felt under pressure to satisfy everybody. You know, with Buffy, they said, well we changed because we needed different in the story and if you dont like it, that is your problem.
But with so many haters SM and Twilight has, I understand she feels like she needs to explain herself and then obviously get caught in it and it gets worse. I dont know... its just my feeling.
Ed doesn't have to worry about fluids -- after all, vampires are hard all the time.
This is my theory. We all know that vamps can't have babies because their bodies are frozen right? they are cold. So I think that when Edward was inside Bella, she warmed him up meaning she brought his little fishes back to life connecting with Bella meaning he could make babies. Ta-da. (BTW, is the best and funniest discussion I have ever had. Totally made my night.)
Rachel wrote: "This is my theory. We all know that vamps can't have babies because their bodies are frozen right? they are cold. So I think that when Edward was inside Bella, she warmed him up meaning she brought his little fishes back to life connecting with Bella meaning he could make babies."Well, I don't think they're cold because they're frozen. They're cold compared to humans because they have no circulation. SM said her vampires' tissues had crystallized, so when she used the term "frozen" she meant that they were locked into their current state.
It still brings us back to the point that, when SM made her vamps incapable of cellular growth, they became sterile. Edward got no little fishes to bring back to life. :)
Now, this thought is really out there, but Edward would have to put the berries, as well as the twig inside to warm up any possible fishes, and I don't think that's possible, even for a vampire. :D
Zena (zaina) wrote: "now, that being said, in her novel she claims that the male vampires can impregnate because their bodies do not need to change, but the female bodies do. A poor excuse, but an excuse non-the-less. "One thing I forgot to mention about this. This assertion of SM's just underscores that she doesn't understand reproductive biology. Male bodies do change in order to make babies. They just do so at a microscopic level in making sperm. If SM wanted to bring science into a fantasy story, she should have done more research.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Zena (zaina) wrote: "now, that being said, in her novel she claims that the male vampires can impregnate because their bodies do not need to change, but the female bodies do. A poor excuse, but an ..."Well if you count that as change, I suppose you're right. Though I was thinking more change in size, shape or something like that.
Veronika wrote: "@S.L.J. I dont follow the SM interviews or anything, so I dont know which came first, but I get the feeling she only tried to explain the whole thing (didnt do very good job, I agree) because she ..."
I agree with you. I heard that before she came up with the fake-science mumbo jumbo she came up with a relatively simple, his sperm was "frozen" or something to that effect. But a lot of people didn't like the explanation so she changed it. I think whatever explanation she comes up with there is always someone who is gonna have a problem with it.
We're missing a vital point here how did Ed get an erection if you're "frozen" (was he frozen while having an erection?) and have no circulation, vital to getting an erection and wouldn't his ejaculate be venom if it replaces all body fluid, then wouldn't the abrasion of having a marble member moving in delicate mucosa opened the path to begin the transformation... any theories anyone? you are all cracking me up...
This whole conversation (I agree it's hilarious!) will be going around in circles for ages. Let's recap, shall we?
Edward can't get an erection since he no longer has the correct circulation. Some have brought up that since their bodies are hard, it's a possibility that he always has an erection. So many problems with that theory, some I won't get into. All I'll say is take anatomy to get how that wouldn't exactly work. In addition, wouldn't it be kind of obvious if he had an erection 24/7?
Shanna brought up that Edward's body fluid is all venom. This would have either a) Turned Bella into a vampire after sex or b) killed her.
And can I just bring up that Edward's gone through a lot of medical training and stuff, right? If he had ejaculated, for one thing he would have noticed, and he would have realized that he might possibly be able to impregnate her?
Edward can't get an erection since he no longer has the correct circulation. Some have brought up that since their bodies are hard, it's a possibility that he always has an erection. So many problems with that theory, some I won't get into. All I'll say is take anatomy to get how that wouldn't exactly work. In addition, wouldn't it be kind of obvious if he had an erection 24/7?
Shanna brought up that Edward's body fluid is all venom. This would have either a) Turned Bella into a vampire after sex or b) killed her.
And can I just bring up that Edward's gone through a lot of medical training and stuff, right? If he had ejaculated, for one thing he would have noticed, and he would have realized that he might possibly be able to impregnate her?
His saliva is also venom. As is his seminal fluids and such. Not all venoms are the same kind.According to SM's website "The normal reactions of arousal are still present in vampires, made possible by venom-related fluids that cause tissues to react similarly as they do to an influx of blood."
SM's explanations are in her site. Either people will accept it or think it's complete bosh. *shrugs*
Nicole di Angelo wrote: "And can I just bring up that Edward's gone through a lot of medical training and stuff, right? If he had ejaculated, for one thing he would have noticed, and he would have realized that he might possibly be able to impregnate her?
"
Edward seems like the type of person that never got off in his life, haha.
But Carlisle is a doctor, you'd think he'd study the stuff. But maybe that has never occurred to him, or whatever.
I dunno man, we're looking far far too much into this stuff it's ridic. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
Diane wrote: "His saliva is also venom. As is his seminal fluids and such. Not all venoms are the same kind.
According to SM's website "The normal reactions of arousal are still present in vampires, made possib..."
Haha, you're right. There is no reasoning to it, nor will there ever be.
According to SM's website "The normal reactions of arousal are still present in vampires, made possib..."
Haha, you're right. There is no reasoning to it, nor will there ever be.
Diane wrote: "Well if you count that as change, I suppose you're right. Though I was thinking more change in size, shape or something like that."You could, but that's the fallacy that SM was working from. She's the one that said "no growth or change." When she eliminated cellular growth (their hair doesn't grow, nor do their fingernails, etc.), that means ALL cellular growth. What kind of sense would that make, if all cellular growth is gone, EXCEPT in their testicles?
Rel8tivity wrote: "Diane wrote: "Well if you count that as change, I suppose you're right. Though I was thinking more change in size, shape or something like that."You could, but that's the fallacy that SM was wor..."
Well, SM's unofficial explanation lead me to think that Edward's sperm was preserved at the time of change (he wasn't producing new sperm) and was only "released" during intercourse with Bella.
But the explanation on her website explained that venom-seminal-fluid had genetic info, the fluid itself can impregnate. Quite a jump for pseudo-science, seems awfully convenient and doesn't really make a whole lot of sense but okay.
Nicole di Angelo wrote: "Shanna brought up that Edward's body fluid is all venom. This would have either a) Turned Bella into a vampire after sex or b) killed her."A couple other properties of venom that haven't been mentioned yet:
1) It's highly flammable.
2) It also serves as glue (in Bree Tanner, the newborns are taught to lick their broken off pieces to re-attach them.)
Therefore -
Bella's lady parts would have either a) been glued shut or b) burst into flame.
No wonder Edward had to go for the mandibular C-section, Renesmee wasn't coming out the normal way! :)
Rel8tivity wrote: "Nicole di Angelo wrote: "Shanna brought up that Edward's body fluid is all venom. This would have either a) Turned Bella into a vampire after sex or b) killed her."A couple other properties of ve..."
SM made lots of types of venoms (with different functions) to cater to all needs! Eyes have lubricating venom, balls have impregnating venom, etc.
It's actually pretty darn funny if you think about it. xD
Rel8tivity wrote: "Nicole di Angelo wrote: "Shanna brought up that Edward's body fluid is all venom. This would have either a) Turned Bella into a vampire after sex or b) killed her."A couple other properties of ve..."
LMAO
Diane wrote: "Well, SM's unofficial explanation lead me to think that Edward's sperm was preserved at the time of change (he wasn't producing new sperm) and was only "released" during intercourse with Bella. "Yeah, I read that one too. Problem is, Joham the serial hybrid-maker messes that one up as well. If that explanation is accurate, then Joham would have been done after the first shot. Nahuel would be an only child, instead of having a bunch of sisters. Basically SM was all over the place with this.
But the explanation on her website explained that venom-seminal-fluid had genetic info, the fluid itself can impregnate. Quite a jump for pseudo-science, seems awfully convenient and doesn't really make a whole lot of sense but okay.
And you know, for most people, that would be fine. Depends on the knowledge you bring to the table. Problem is, when she started trying to delve into Mendelian genetics and how many chromasomes does a vampire and a werewolf have, that meant other aspects of biology have to work in real world terms too. So waving her hands and saying seminal venom is carrying genetic information still doesn't work. You don't have loose DNA or chromasomes floating around in a soup. It's in cells, and boy had a vasectomy 90 years ago.
SM should have stuck with magic and vampire mojo that makes babies.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Nicole di Angelo wrote: "Shanna brought up that Edward's body fluid is all venom. This would have either a) Turned Bella into a vampire after sex or b) killed her."
A couple other properties of ve..."
Ha! That just made my day!
A couple other properties of ve..."
Ha! That just made my day!
Thania wrote: "At some point when Edward was still human he was able to produce sperm. when he turned into a vampire, he still had that ability because one he acquired it he can't loose it because his body doesn'..."Actually on a microscopic level the male body does change in order to produce sperm and it's not just sperm its the production of seminal fluid, the hormones necessary for this, the production of an erection, why is it a female vamp's body can't change and grow to accommodate a baby but the male's penis can change shape to produce an erection.
And considering all the eggs a woman will ever produce are present in her ovaries at birth, and the male sperm production is a continuous ongoing process arguably the male must change more to produce his reproductive cells...
Thania wrote: "At some point when Edward was still human he was able to produce sperm. when he turned into a vampire, he still had that ability because one he acquired it he can't loose it because his body doesn'..."Well, it's good too know that a males body doesn't need to change in order to have kids. There was me thinking biology, hormones and chromesomes had something to do with it.
How silly I was...
Actually his body does need to change in order to fertilize the egg. There are ways he could have sperm, it's the transfer of that's the issue
Nicole di Angelo wrote: "Actually his body does need to change in order to fertilize the egg. There are ways he could have sperm, it's the transfer of that's the issue"I was being sarcastic.
S.L.J. wrote: "All bodily fluids are replaced by venom...Wasn't something said about them having to kiss carefully for fear that venom might turn her or something...???
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
But what e..."
is it even possible to have vampire sperm?
sm said vampires freeze when they turn into a vampire
then edward must have human sperm in him right?
Thania wrote: "At some point when Edward was still human he was able to produce sperm. when he turned into a vampire, he still had that ability because one he acquired it he can't loose it because his body doesn't need to change in order to produce sperm, unlike the female body, which needs to change in order to produce egg cells. "Why is it, when a celebrity says something about science, that people assume it's gospel?
Let me put this out there: SM was WRONG. Flat out WRONG when she said women's bodies change and men's bodies don't during the reproductive process. Sure, the outward appearence changes for women, but there is still change going on in both.
You mention yourself that a woman's body needs to change in order to produce eggs cells. How do sperm cells get produced, then? It's not magic. It's meiosis, which is the process of cell division to make eggs or sperm. The end product might be different, but it happens in both men and women. BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.
And it's been said here a number of times: SM said her vampires don't grow any more, including at the cellular level. Their bodies have crystallized. So that means no more sperm cells, vampire or otherwise.
Hai Lu wrote: "sm said vampires freeze when they turn into a vampirethen edward must have human sperm in him right? "
Actually, SM's first explanation was that the tissues of her vampires have crystallized. That's why they sparkle in the sunshine. I suppose you can consider that freezing, because they don't change from that point on. But it's not literally cryogenic freezing.
And if he had human sperm in him, wouldn't RenFailmee be a full blooded human?
An excellent point, what kind of sperm exactly does he possess? I mean she's half vampire, that means that something wonky happened to his sperm in the transformation, yet (and sorry if I got my facts on this mixed up) SM states that he had frozen sperm cells, meaning his human ones were the ones that were frozen.
SM is constantly contradicting herself saying that they're frozen, yet somehow he was able to form an erection and his sperm unfroze.
SM is constantly contradicting herself saying that they're frozen, yet somehow he was able to form an erection and his sperm unfroze.
Nicole di Angelo wrote: "An excellent point, what kind of sperm exactly does he possess? I mean she's half vampire, that means that something wonky happened to his sperm in the transformation, yet (and sorry if I got my fa..."The frozen sperm theory was SM's older explanation, her new one is that seminal fluids (no mention of sperm) had the genetic material that can impregnate humans. Apparently.
Tho that's an interesting theory, to have frozen human sperm making Nessie human. Though I don't think the sperms would've remained human, yes they're frozen much like Edward is frozen in his current state but then Edward sorta looks human but is not.
But then again, if they turned into vamp-sperms. They would've needed to change (especially when it has fertilized an egg, it couldn't very well have worked out if it remained frozen in its current state) and that doesn't really seem to happen with vampire parts/things/stuff.
Rel8tivity wrote: "Nicole di Angelo wrote: "Shanna brought up that Edward's body fluid is all venom. This would have either a) Turned Bella into a vampire after sex or b) killed her."A couple other properties of ve..."
Hahahaha.... I can't help but laughing reading this, and your other comments.
SM should have just kept her theory as vampire world mystery rather than acting as a biology teacher.
She should have labelled her works as romance novels rather than fantasy. Her romance is quite fascinating, once we ignore the fantasy she is serving us.
Okay, one other point we haven't thought about. Still wouldn't make vampire baby-making possible in Twi-world, but something to think about.SM's vampires are super strong. In New Moon, Alice mentions Edward thinking of throwing a Buick (first of all, where's he gonna find a Buick in a small village in Italy?) through a wall to expose himself to the Volturi.
So let's assume that ALL of their muscles are super strong - including the muscles in the testicles that power an ejaculation. If Edward can lift and throw a car, scale that down for the muscles in his dingle-berries. A human sneeze travels at over 95 mph. Those suckers are gonna fire any vampire seminal venom with the muzzle velocity of a shotgun. And there ain't no controlling those muscles, they're totally involuntary.
Bella's not in danger of being impregnated. She's gonna die from a gunshot wound.
(I can't claim credit for this. Read Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex by Larry Niven.)
Rel8tivity wrote: "Okay, one other point we haven't thought about. Still wouldn't make vampire baby-making possible in Twi-world, but something to think about.SM's vampires are super strong. In New Moon, Alice me..."
Bwahahahahaha...
Rel8tivity wrote: "Okay, one other point we haven't thought about. Still wouldn't make vampire baby-making possible in Twi-world, but something to think about.SM's vampires are super strong. In New Moon, Alice me..."
Roflol
Toni wrote: "Thanks for making me choke on my cereal, Helkat14."Just had to say I found your comment comical! ^_^
We must remember that Edward was not the only vampire to impregnate someone.In breaking dawn part 2, for example, the other guy who was half mortal and half immortal came forward. Although I see what you mean, you wouldn't think any vampire could impregnate anyone...ever! It is a very odd scenerio at that!
@rel8tivity that's hilarious! And also makes sense in a weird sort if way
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