Breaking Dawn
discussion
the whole "vampires can't have babies" issue.
Absolutely true. That's really been bothering me. Although I was prepared to overlook it, because the text is always talking about how "hard" Edward is. Maybe he actually doesn't need to get an erection?Welcome to biology for the insane.
Thanks for making me choke on my cereal, Helkat14.
What part of Fiction do people not understand. Every single person who reads any book will always have their own perception. But if they cant pull themselves out of their own mind and at least try to see someone else's perception... well then that sucks for their lack of imagination and intelligence.
a) You're misusing "perception" here; I think you mean "perspective."b) I'm not sure what point you're making here. I think this entire discussion board has been about trying to see the book through the eyes of other readers; that's why we're sharing and discussing our reactions. What are we supposed to be trying to see here that we're not?
There is what is said in the book and what Meyer says outside of the book. I believe in the first book Edward told Bella that he could perform that way, so I took his word for it in the book. I didn't and Bella didn't want to know the specifics of how. So, the vampires are pretty super human with crazy abilites, like being able to put their body back together after being ripped apart. They have super brains, super strength, super lots of stuff. If they could do that, whose to say they couldn't they get an erection when they want to?
But you'd think they the male vamps would know if some sort of fluid escaped from the deed and would worry about how that might affect Bella. Oh well. If they knew that then they would have used protection and the only way Bella could get pregnant then would be if the protection failed, it happens. Hmm, maybe that would have been cool still. Then the baby would really be meant to be.
I believe that this book took the story exactly where it needed to be in order to end the series. Fluids.. are we going to pick apart the story because of an interview. In Vampire lore, the incubus vs. succubus stories include impregnation. "Demon Spawn" Her explanation of human/vampire procreation help the puzzle fit together. Perhaps after she made her comments she changed her mind about "all fluids" Since the series is hers to grow as she sees fit, does she not have creative license to change? Just my thought.
You're telling me after 100 years he's still got some swimmers! Give me a break!
Yall... You cant compare to "human" sex to vampire and human sex... its uncomparable because the second one is unrealistic. Therefore, it is possible... Stephenie made the fiction series... she can write it the way she wants and how she wants.
Breaking Dawn was incredible :-)
We HAVE to compare them. Human sex is the only sex we have any understanding of (well, except animal sex, but I don't see how that would help us), so it's the only way we can get any contextual understanding of what we're reading.Meyer has gone to a lot of trouble to explain the science of her vampires. We understand, biologically, what happens to a person when they become a vampire. Therefore, we expect the same sort of explanation when something we thought was impossible (vampire reproduction) turns out to be possible after all.
Stephenie Meyer can absolutely write her story the way she wants. My problem is that she doesn't explain things that appear to contradict each other.
I just had a thought. She sort of left the book wide open for more in the series. And where it left off no one really knows the biology of how Bella got pregnant. Only that she did, and therefore, it is possible. Carlisle didn't know. The Volturi didn't know. Everyone was just as surprised as us, the readers. So, I figure the Volturi will do some investigating. They did research on the toddler vampires. I'm sure they will figure this all out, and then, in some other book, we will eventually find out as well.
Fair point, Lori. If that happens, I'm more than prepared to withdraw my criticism of that aspect of the book.
I have to bring up something here. Stephenie said in an interview, in response to the pregnancy question, that "venom works in a lot of different ways". That leads me to believe it was venom that created the baby, not sperm. When Edward's venom enters Bella's system during sex, shouldn't Bella have become a vampire? We're discussing this on another forum and I thought it was an interesting topic.
Seems to me that the venom has to be injected directly into the blood stream. Otherwise, couldn't a vampire just spit at someone and, say it gets into the eyes or something, make them a vampire?
This is going to sound a bit odd... but i imagined that Bella would become a vampire from having sex with Edward. SM had stated that all of the bodily fluids were replaced with venom, correct? Wouldnt sperm be included? I knew it wouldnt happen, but i thought it would be the funniest thing (and in my opinion very creative) if Bella started screaming in horrible pain because her vagina was "on fire". Lol, im sorry if that was too much for any of you.
oh no, i hadnt read all the comments before i posted that ^^^ Well, im glad im not the only one who had thought of it...
LOL! Lebbano, I think that's hilarious. That would've made an incredible twist to the story.
LMAO @ Lebbano. Honestly, I think that happening would have been a better twist than the baby.
LOL @ Lebbano- That woud have worked better than the baby, it would definitely caused more conflict in the story and maybe a big to the death match with Edward/Jacob. I'm all for a good fight between the minds but I think SM could of shed some blood.When I read the little graph of whose who on the back and they had the names struck out for people who died before BD I was really thinking there were going to be some death, sort of like Potter.
Same here, i heard that somebody in the family was going to die. I was thinking it would be Emmett due to his love of the fight.
I had a thought today while reading. I guess this is the best board to post it since it has to do with vampires having babies. SM stated in an interview that if a female who was pregnant was turned into a vampire, she would basically be pregnant forever because of the whole body freezing in time thing. I guess the unborn baby would be frozen as well. So, what if that child happens to be part vampire? It was said that the unborn child literally chewed its way out of the mother's body. The membrane surrounding the baby is as strong as a vampires skin. Nothing can break it except vampire teeth which the baby has. So, if Bella were bitten before the baby was out, could Renesmee still have 'chewed' her way out? Kind-of a 'way out there' thought.
I'm still trying to understand how the trauma of carrying the child and giving birth didn't kill Bella. Women throughout history have died from far less trauma than what Bella experienced.The entire thing will boggle me forever, fiction or not.
Well she did get killed...she's a vampire now, remember? Technically being a vampire is being the scientifically-incorrect dead.
No, I mean how did she even live long enough to get to that part? Also, when baby started breaking her spine...shouldn't she have been paralyzed? Honestly, Meyer's explanations are so contradictary, it's a wonder no one's losing brain cells. First she says that a pregnant woman who is turned would be pregnant forever and vampires don't change at ALL from the state they were in before the change, which is why Alice's hair doesn't grow, and yet the venom "heals" all damage, which definitely qualifies as major change (especially considering the broken and bleeding state some people are in before hand).
*still boggling over here*
That's is extremely right. Another huge inconsistency on her part.
i think that to many people are looking way to far into little things and making the book seem horrible because SM said this and this and then contradicted it, i think everyone is just finding stupid things to pick at and complain about
That's very true as well. I'm sitting on the fence for this debate. xD
@ JessThe writing is so mangled and Meyer's character descriptions so contradictory, finding something wrong isn't as difficult as you'd like to believe. Which is why people are talking about it, and that's the point of having a discussion post.
If you don't want to talk about it, you are more than welcome to find a discussion that praises the book and refuses to acknowledge that there's anything wrong with it.
The fact is that people find this book lacking, and insulting them isn't going to change that.
@ KaraWell, at least you tried. :) It would be an interesting situation if it were true: Renesmee both killing and preserving/protecting Bella at the same time.
Okay, I find it ridiculous that over thousands of years either no vampire has ever masturbated, or they didn't care to study the sperm that would appear from such an act. You'd think they'd be curious (especially with Carlisle, the doctor, who you would assume has done a little research in this area, no?)
@ SadieI think this is more of an issue of Meyer's squeamishness than anything. I don't see her putting a study on sperm and masturbation in her books.
@ ToniHaha, I don't think she'd address it so directly in a book. My point is, they'd know pregnancy to be possible.
http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/bd_faq.htm… here are the answers you all are looking for.. go about 2 thirds down to Vampires and Pregnancy..
oh my gosh I cant believe that it could happen till I read breaking dawn I still didnt belive it until I read it seven times lol
Regarding message 1: Her quote says they don't have "their own blood", but when they feed the blood flows through them. This would allow them to get an erection. There are vampire books from the early eighties that discuss this very thing. Vampires that cannot have sex with their human mates until after they have fed as they have no blood of their own to get an erection. (Laurel Hamilton's Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter series). There have been legends around for centuries about vampires having sex with human women and impregnating them. Stephanie Meyers talks about that in her books. During the honeymoon after Bella realizes she is pregnant Edward talks to the house keeper about it. Then as the family is doing research in South America, Alice comes back with a Women and her nephew who had a vampire father. All of this is based on legends that have been around for hundreds of years.
Stephanie apparently did some research for her books. She didn't just make it all up.
Also, regarding vampires not knowing it was possible or Carlisle being a doctor never researching it. It is stated in the book that they never had any reason to research it. Vampire/Human relationships were unheard of and it was found that women vampires couldn't get pregnant, so there was no reason to even consider the idea that a male vampire could still reproduce if with a partner that could get pregnant. Carlisle spent most of his life as a vampire with the Volturi, remember. He knew only what was believed/taught there. Most of the vampires who were "misbehaving" and impregnating humans were south slavic or central/south american. They were hiding what they were doing from the Volturi and other vampires.
So it is very possible that they would not have known this a possibility. But the incubus and succubus were said to be very sexual in legend; tying bloodlust and sex very close to one another, so vampires being passionate is not farfetched. And again, I've been reading vampire books for over 25 years. This is not new fiction or information.
I think what was cool is that nobody thought it was possible for Bella to get pregnant not even Edward so they were just doing it for the act of doing it , just for the sake of making their relationship offical so I think Meyers covered any reader thoughts about how could this happen because she made it seem like it was impossible which gave it that element of surprise. I loved it! So ok to wrap this discussion up I do agree that if a writter makes up a fictional world filled with fictional characters that there should be rules to go along with this fictional world so that it sets it apart from other fictional worlds(other writters books) and it would be cool & unconfusing if the writter can stick to their own rules but as already stated it is Meyers world, her book, her imagination and she should be allowed to change what ever she wants(with in reason) and it's up to us as fans/readers to either stand behind her changing and unchanging rules or to to be against her and question every little thing she dose but remeber she never planned for anyone to look too deeply into the dynamics of the story she just wanted you to enjoy the story.
Kara wrote: "@Toni: I know this is a bit late, but I'm up to the chapter where Bella avoids the human blood (I figured out what I'm about to say while at school) but like . . .When Renesmee broke Bella's sp..."
And then theres the part in the transformation when she suddenly feels her lower half on fire after the venom repairs the spinal break.
Ok! Most Of these people commenting must be young LOL. Have you ever heard the phraise Of freezing your eggs? Ok, well thats how sperm donation places do it as well. The freeze the sperm as Long as they need too. Since Edward Is a Vampire he Is frozen and so is his sperm, once the sperm Is released bella being Human and warm its actually fresh and VERY FERTILE! And now you know how this falls into place and now I hope you caught on and makes more sense to you now.
Candice wrote: "Ok! Most Of these people commenting must be young LOL. Have you ever heard the phraise Of freezing your eggs? Ok, well thats how sperm donation places do it as well. The freeze the sperm as Long as..."If that were true then they'd also be able to cry. But they can't.
She should have just kept the answer to vampire babies mystical/unexplained. But she started using biology to try and explain a supernatural being that goes comepletely against the laws of science. She did poor research on chromesomes as well.
She sort of shot herself in the foot by adding science to the mix.
Candice wrote: "Ok! Most Of these people commenting must be young LOL. Have you ever heard the phraise Of freezing your eggs? Ok, well thats how sperm donation places do it as well. The freeze the sperm as Long as..."Sorry, if Edward's sperm were in cryogenic stasis and he still had junk in his trunk, RenFailmee would be a full human, not a vampire/human hybrid.
Danielle wrote: "http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/bd_faq...." here are the answers you all are looking for.. go about 2 thirds down to Vampires and Pregnancy.."I read that, and it still doesn't work. Here is the important sentence:
"Like with vampire skin—which looks similar to human skin and has the same basic function—fluids closely related to seminal fluids still exist in male vampires, which carry genetic information and are capable of bonding with a human ovum."
The problem with this is, the important part is NOT the seminal fluids, but the cells (sperm) that are swimming around in it. Otherwise, guys with vasectomies are going to be in a LOT of trouble! :)
Meyer further shoots holes in this theory when she pronounced that her vampires do not change or grow. Female vampires would be pregnant forever if changed in that state, remember? Alice's hair hasn't grown back since she was changed. This means male vampires are sterile too. No growth, no cells means no sperm, vampire or otherwise. So there IS NO GENETIC MATERIAL for her seminal fluid analogue to carry.
If she had stuck with magic and some kind of vampire mojo that made babies, it would have been fine. But she started going into how many chromasomes a vampire had, so we're stuck with Mendelian genetics, and she didn't make it work in that regard. You can't have it both ways.
Circulation isn't required for an erection. If you can cause vascular dilation, fluid (blood or venom or whatever) will flow into the organ in response to the change in pressure. Erections aren't caused by the heart pumping, but by the veins and arteries enlarging. So vampire sex should be possible. It's just the whole transfer-of-genetic-material that causes problems. If Edward is still a virgin, he should have all the sperm he had at the time he was turned. Since the vampire venom changes the genetic structure of every cell in his body, it's possible it changed around his haploids, as well, making vamp!baby possible.
Except that Meyer has stated that he has no sperm - presumably, it was destroyed and replaced by venom, which is known to alter genetic material, but should completely rewrite any genes it comes into contact with. So, assuming that the venom is ejaculated like semen, it should at the very least turn the ovum into a vampire cell, which would prevent cellular division in the zygote, since that would constitute a "change"... Yeah, no. This still doesn't work.
All bodily fluids are replaced by venom...Wasn't something said about them having to kiss carefully for fear that venom might turn her or something...???
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
But what everyone else has been saying is right. Even if Edward was 'frozen' when he got turn and that some how meant he still had sperm inside him, it would be human sperm (infected with Spanish Influenza no less). So it should have been a human child, not a creepy hybrid.
If Meyer hadn't mangled vampire mythology like she did, I don’t think anybody would have had a problem with Renesmee. Stories about dhampirs—children born from a male vampire and a human woman—have been around for ages. Despite what so many people seem to think, Meyer is not the first woman to include dhampirs in her mythology, and she certainly won’t be the last. On her website, she says, “What do you name the most unique baby in the world?” Well, Renesmee isn’t really all that unique since she isn’t the first half-vampire ever. Rayne anybody?However, Meyer did kind of screw herself over by trying to explain this all with science that she doesn’t understand. All of their fluids were replaced with venom—including their sperm—and then when she realized her mistake, she tried to worm her way out of it by making it so that the venom worked the way the other fluids would have, even though I believe there was never a mention of this before Breaking Dawn.
So, vampires can most definitely have babies and they have throughout mythology for a very long time. However, Meyer’s vampires should not be able to have babies. But that’s my take on it. Feel free to disagree with me.
Samantha wrote: "If Meyer hadn't mangled vampire mythology like she did, I don’t think anybody would have had a problem with Renesmee. Stories about dhampirs—children born from a male vampire and a human woman—have..."At leats we still have Nephillim to write stories about, but then most of them have veered away from the lore as well.
S.L.J. wrote: "Samantha wrote: "If Meyer hadn't mangled vampire mythology like she did, I don’t think anybody would have had a problem with Renesmee. Stories about dhampirs—children born from a male vampire and a..."The Paranormal Romance and Young Adult genres are quickly destroying most ancient lore and mythology. Don't get me started on the misuse of Greek Mythology in young adult books.
There is a part in one of the books that explains that they can impregnate a person by "incubus" meaning they are demons in mythology that take (human)women in their sleep to have a child. Edward considered himself a demond so he was able to impregnate Bella by incubus. that's the only reasonable explanation I took as part of them having a baby.
Lauren wrote: "IDK im sure Meyer has realized some of mistakes and the confusion it has called. Maybe she should write a book on vampy abilities..."Actually, Meyer did write a book about vampire abilities. It's in: The Twilight Saga: The Official Illustrated Guide.
Problem is, she doesn't give any better information there, than she did elsewhere. AND she goes one step further by changing what she said from previous interviews. Take a look at my comments here. Instead of her vampires being living rock with crystallized cells, now their tissues are "not as pliant." This tells me she knows what she wrote is having a hard time flying on its own. Doesn't matter. She's not backing off the "no growth and change" rule. So as long as that's around, she's got a plot hole you can sail the Enterprise through.
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The Twilight Saga: The Official Illustrated Guide (other topics)
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Breaking Dawn (other topics)The Twilight Saga: The Official Illustrated Guide (other topics)
"Most human fluids are absent in my vampires. No sweat, no tears, no blood besides that which they ingest–they don’t have their own blood. They do sort of have saliva–the venom makes their mouths wet, at least. When they drink blood, it runs through their body and makes them strong. It floods through their old blood ways, though they don’t have circulation anymore. It lightens their eyes* and flushes their skin slightly."
now, that being said, in her novel she claims that the male vampires can impregnate because their bodies do not need to change, but the female bodies do. A poor excuse, but an excuse non-the-less. However, what a lot of people fail to see is that it doesn't matter whether or not he has sperm, or if his organs are frozen or not. She clearly states in this quote that her vampires no longer have circulating blood right? Well how the hell can Edward get an erection without circulating blood?? Without circulating blood, Edward can't even have sex with Bella, non-the-less get her pregnant. I am very disappointed in Stephanie Meyer and her lack of writing in this novel. she clearly can't remember or abide the rules she set for her own writing.