THE NAME OF THE ROSE

[Susan]

Maybe being a monk makes you strange. Or you have to be strange in order to become a monk. Which came first the monk or the strangeness?

[Ellen]

well, I think the reality (then & now) that while certainly there are those with genuine vocations there are many who turn to monasteries hoping to "escape" - the world, relationships with others, confusions about themselves. And at the time of TNOTR, the reality was there were very few "career path" options: marriage, following your parents work, priesthood. Monks were generally those who could not afford to become priests which required a much greater "contribution" to the order to be allowed to join. Something like club dues. So monks were (generally) from poorer backgrounds. And for some reason that I don't really understand monasteries have always been known to attract more gays. The present-day monasteries were very hard hit by the AIDS crisis-I lost a number of friends who were monks.

[Susan]

From the description of Sebastian's life on the outside, I think I would have opted for life in a monastery whether I had a vocation or not.

[Michele]

now a man or woman chooses a religious calling. not so at the time this book was written. monasteries were filled with 2nd or 3rd sons who were given to the church by their families. some did have a calling but most did not. it was also seen as a source of power and wealth (check the borgias) and if you wanted an education then that's what you did.

[Lisa]

Was it common for wealthy families to use monastaries/nunneries as an asylum to their more mentally challenged family members? I was wondering if their were asylums during this time period?

[Susan]

Michele wrote: "now a man or woman chooses a religious calling. not so at the time this book was written. monasteries were filled with 2nd or 3rd sons who were given to the church by their families. some.did have ..."

Convents were also a handy place to stick imconvenient daughters and widows

[Michele]

a convent was also the place to go if you did not wish to become some man's chattel and get an education.

[Ellen]

It was about the only career path open to a woman, especially after midwifery was taken over by men. And death from childbirth was a very real danger. Maternal as well as infant mortality was extremely high. That old idea of women who could "drop babies in the field & go back to working" ignores,or is ignorant of, the fact that mother frequently dropped more than their babies. They often dropped dead themselves.
Convents offered a chance at a natural lifespan.

[Marialyce]

..and I guess it also provided a diet of sorts, so that you were pretty sure of getting meals and being fed. There were also others who could take care of you when you got sick/and/or aged.

[Ellen]

And as far as food goes-back then (as in some parts of the world today) it was not so uncommon for people to starve to death.

Although, I believe you needed some sort of dowry to enter a convent so it was not a refuge for the poorest of poor.

[Marialyce]

Very true, Ellie. You are right abut a dowry too. Didn't the wealthy "buy" bishop-ships and cardinalships for family members? Look at the Borgias right?

[Ellen]

Absolutely. And think of all the Popes who had children-some of whom went on to "inherit" the office of pope!

[Marialyce]

Oh yea, let us not forget those too! The church was a very "human" institution wasn't it?

[Ellen]

The Glory of...& all that. Good thing all can be forgiven.

[Sean]

Ellie wrote: "It was about the only career path open to a woman, especially after midwifery was taken over by men. And death from childbirth was a very real danger. Maternal as well as infant mortality was extre..."

Wow. You're very erudite on the subject. Impressive. Thanks for th insights.
Sean

[Ellen]

Thanks. I'm very interested in this period in history (as well as church history).

[Marialyce]

I finished Day 3 and did feel that not all the heretics were heretical. Again the major theme seems to be poor versus rich within the church. Berenger has been found after missing for a bit.....(view spoiler)[ ...and there is the sex scene for Adso with the young girl (hide spoiler)]. There is an awful lot of "gross" food items mentioned and the amount of blood is at times off setting eg. the heart wrapped up for food!!!

[Lisa]

I must say the different heretic societies is still confusing. Seems that definition changes with each Pope, bishop and king. Must agree with the poor versus rich, seems that never goes out of style.

[Ellen]

Some of the definitions for heresy were actually quite helpful although clearly the enforcement of orthodoxy was not. But much of what was labeled "heresy" was in fact (theologically) more extreme than what was accepted mainstream dogma. The Niocene Council tended to accept the more moderate dogmas & steered away from the more extreme sects of the time. Many of the heterodox sects believed that, basically, everyone was damned except for a few divinely pre-selected & if you were not selected, you were doomed no matter how good a life you lived (though if you were selected, you could still blow it). Alister E. McGrath's book Heresy: A History of Defending the Truth has some interesting things to say about this.

[Michele]

the biggest problem was that there was at the time no separation of church and state and both were absolute powers. This book is set in what we call "the burning times". heresy was a capitol offense. little was required in way of physical proof. accusations were sufficient then they would torture you to confess. which you did just to get the pain to stop and then they murdered you. the attitude was that since the pope is infallible then the church was as well. many in the church hungered for power over life and death as well as temporal wealth. the church was ripe with corruption which eventually resulted in Martin Luther nailing his complaints to a church door.

[Marialyce]

You are so right, Michele...and let's also include the selling of indulgences and the giving of penance easily sometimes even before the most heinous crimes was committed.

[Michele]

Ellie, you mentioned the few pre selected gaining heaven no matter how good a life the rest lived. Actually, that was heresy in the roman catholic church. However, it was in the early days a belief of Presbyterianism.

[Ellen]

I know-that's what I meant when I said I was happy some of the beliefs were labeled as heretical. The doctrine of the elect was accepted by, as you say, Presbyterians but rejected by the Catholic Church.

And just to be sure everyone knows what I believe: I agree with some of what was declared heretical I categorically reject & am horrified by how it was handled.

Until the 15th century there was no nation state that had the power of the Church, there was actually no France, Germany, England, etc. as we know them but loosely connected groups of fiefdoms. The rise of the nation-states only began in the 15th c. & didn't become established until the 16-17 & even 18th century. Germany & Italy did not consolidate until the 19th century.

All of which gave the Church nearly unlimited power after the fall of the Roman Empire.

[Catherine]

Michele wrote: "Ellie, you mentioned the few pre selected gaining heaven no matter how good a life the rest lived. Actually, that was heresy in the roman catholic church. However, it was in the early days a belief..."

Actually, that belief, called Predestination, is still a belief of some in the Calvinist (and Presbyterian) traditions. It has faded away in its strictest forms, but you do find it still lives in some of the more conservative wings of the Presbyterian and reformed churches.

[Ellen]

Yes, the Catholics called it the Elects (I know the French for it but the English escapes me). I had nightmares about that when I was a teen (I guess that says something about my teenage years-reading about the Elects & worrying about that!).

But I really was just trying to point out that heresy doesn't necessarily equal something good or progressive, as I thought when I was younger. It's the way heretical beliefs-or rather the people who held them-were handled that was so appalling.

[Michele]

it was dangerous being different in the dark and middle ages. especially if you were female. being different, even now is or can be dangerous. making waves with opposing beliefs and ideas can still be dangerous. although the roman catholic church is no longer the only christian church in the west, religiousity still holds sway everywhere with a great many people. ask any school official in the USA about trying to teach Darwinian evolution without the opposing theories.

[Lisa]

Do we have a schedule for the fourth day? I might have missed it.

[Lisa]

If it is ok, can we start the fourth day today(26th) thru the 28th?

[Marialyce]

I finished the book and thought it was only an OK read. There was too much rambling in it for my tastes.