THE NAME OF THE ROSE

[Ellen]

Happy birthday!

[Bernadette]

Rick wrote: "I also found the herbal chapter facinating- and a nice "breather" from all the names and philosophies of the previous chapter- most of which I found confusing in the details- but as Susan pointed o..."

Sounds good and Happy Birthday!

[Marialyce]

Does anyone know why it was so important to name the brothers monks by where they came from? There are no simply Brother James, of Brother Compline etc. Does it have anything to do with the story? I have read other books of that time period and don't remember that being done.

[Ellen]

I think-but don't quote me-in most places people died where they were born. In the monasteries people came from many places. Plus there was a huge repetition of names that were taken (the names they are known by are not their birth names)

[Susan]

People did not have last names at that time, so, as Ellie said, they needed some way to distinguish one "William" from another, etc. Also, as used in the novel, it might be to establish what nationality each monk is, which might be a fleshing out of their characters.

[Marialyce]

Thanks, ladies. That makes sense.

[Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB]

Thanks for the early Happy Birthdays! I am now at the Jack Benny Stage "39 forever"!!!

I think that with the names- certain Spanish Writers used their locations in their names...Miguel De Cervantes (Michael of Cervantes)

Am I the only one to feel that there is some innuendo about the dead Monk's sexuality in the last chapter? I wonder if that will play a role in the story

[Marialyce]

I think so too, Rick. I also feel it will have a definite place in the novel.

[Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB]

Marialyce wrote: "I think so too, Rick. I also feel it will have a definite place in the novel."

I believe the term "feminine" was used- so it seems that the issue will become more important

[Lisa]

The descriptions of the manuscript's that the dead monk was drawing was interesting. I did some research on the illuminated manuscripts and they were just beautiful. The detail and time involved in making those pages is unbelievable! Just beautiful!
Of course, part of me then thinks about carpal tunnel and myopia, but that is the cynical side.

[Manybooks]

Lisa wrote: "The descriptions of the manuscript's that the dead monk was drawing was interesting. I did some research on the illuminated manuscripts and they were just beautiful. The detail and time involved ..."

No wonder any surviving manuscripts are such treasures and kept under lock and key.

[Diane S ☔]

Yes this chapter was very interesting, the descriptions of all the manuscripts and the scriptorium in general. The blind monk was rather creepy though, all fire and brimstone and his allusion to nine days.

[Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB]

I also enjoyed the descriptions of the scriptorium - so facinating at how methodical they were..the Blind Monk gave me the creeps too- he seemed like he was a bit....emotional-not someone I would like for a neighbor

[Manybooks]

Rick wrote: "I also enjoyed the descriptions of the scriptorium - so facinating at how methodical they were..the Blind Monk gave me the creeps too- he seemed like he was a bit....emotional-not someone I would l..."

The blind monk is very creepy, ugghh.

[Lisa]

Gundula wrote: "Rick wrote: "I also enjoyed the descriptions of the scriptorium - so facinating at how methodical they were..the Blind Monk gave me the creeps too- he seemed like he was a bit....emotional-not some..."

Must agree, tad too fanatical! I liked the observation that what makes a person so fanatical against is what has driven him to sin in the first place.

[Susan]

Who was that Guy in Star Wars with the black hooded robe and ugly white face? That's what the blind monk looks like.

[Lisa]

Supreme Chancellor Palpatine AKA The Emperor. Is that him?

[Susan]

I'll take your word for it. I didn't follow the prequels too closely. If he was ugly & wore a black Hood, that was him.

[Bernadette]

Susan wrote: "I'll take your word for it. I didn't follow the prequels too closely. If he was ugly & wore a black Hood, that was him."

Do you mean in the movie version of TNOTR Susan? I just moved it up on my Netflix list

[Susan]

http://www.listal.com/viewimage/357147

[Diane S ☔]

Also I found the description of Brother Williams spectacles interesting. Another item that makes him special and ahead of his time.

[Ellen]

Diane wrote: "Also I found the description of Brother Williams spectacles interesting. Another item that makes him special and ahead of his time."


As a wearer of specs myself, it was the kind of detail that made the story come alive for me.

[Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB]

I truly believe the Blind Monk had a very sordid past- as he was a bit too accurate in remembering the illustrations- seems like a guilty conscience to me

[Ellen]

He is totally creepy.

I mean, I get to be judgmental about characters, right? I hope.

It's one of my favorite pleasures of reading: guilt-free condemnation.

[Lisa]

I found it interesting that the glass maker was bemoaning the fact that they could not reproduce the exact blue in the stained glass windows. He kept saying that they did not have the talent that the "old" ones did, yet Brother William whips out his glasses and they are amazed at the ingenuity of the device. Goes to show that we are only limited by our thinking, everyone has the ability to produce amazing things, but sometimes we get limited by our mind and our circumstance.

[Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB]

Ellie wrote: "He is totally creepy.

I mean, I get to be judgmental about characters, right? I hope.

It's one of my favorite pleasures of reading: guilt-free condemnation."

sounds perfectly fine to me!

[Marialyce]

So much of the science seems to be a bit Leonardo da Vinci based I think. (the flying, the magnified glasses etc)

[Bernadette]

Not going to give any spoiler here but...got stuck in the m.d. office today and read into Day Second...it gets more mysterious and I didn't want to see the doctor it was so good...

[Susan]

Things I want to remember from this segment:

1. The illustrations that the dead guy (I can't remember his name) did were grotesques and the carvings on the church door were grotesques.

2. The dead guy's "femininity" was mentioned again.

3. There seems to be a connection between the dead guy and Berengar, the assistant librarian.

4. Everything at the monastery is on a "need to know" basis, as far as what herbs do what, and who gets to read what books.

5. There is an oven in one tower, a fireplace in another tower, and STAIRCASES curve up around the inside of the towers while the oven & the fire are going. Unusual setup. (What would Holmes on Homes think?) Are we going to find some crispy critters along the way?

6. There are a lot of loony monks at this place (Sebastian, Ubertino, Jorge).

[Susan]

Lisa wrote: "I found it interesting that the glass maker was bemoaning the fact that they could not reproduce the exact blue in the stained glass windows. He kept saying that they did not have the talent that ..."

Well said.

[Susan]

Bernadette wrote: "Not going to give any spoiler here but...got stuck in the m.d. office today and read into Day Second...it gets more mysterious and I didn't want to see the doctor it was so good..."

Nice to know the next part is good.

[Diane S ☔]

By the time we are done with this book we will descriptively know the inside of a monastery inside and out. Foubnd it interesting when Brother William once again showed his glasses as an example of something that was good but that could be perceived as evil by others. They had such a narrow range between good and evil during the early history of the church. Was really not good to stand out which I think is what the dead monk did by his designs and we know that the blind monk did perceive these as evil.

[Diana]

Hey! I recently finished "The Name of the Rose"and I have joined this book club only to participate in this discussion! :) I hope I am welcome... No spoilers to come.
From my point of view, Brother William is a modern believer, he believes in God, but he believes in evolution of the sciences and the benefits we can get out of it.
He is also, I think, one of my favourite characters in a book... he is a certain mystery going on, like he knows more than others around him...
For all of you reading, if you like the way it is written, it is a great read :)

[Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB]

Diana wrote: "Hey! I recently finished "The Name of the Rose"and I have joined this book club only to participate in this discussion! :) I hope I am welcome... No spoilers to come.
From my point of view, Brother..."

wonderful to have you as part of the Group!! So far I am enjoying the book- just a bit too much details at times!!

[Diana]

I agree... and what I found to be a bit timeconsuming are the long discussion about philosophy and religion... Of course that they serve the atmosphere, but since it is essentially a detective-type of book you just want them to move on and get back to the plot :)

[Ellen]

Actually, I read the book because of the philosophy & religion & discovered that it was (to me "also") a detective story. :)

[Susan]

Ellie wrote: "Actually, I read the book because of the philosophy & religion & discovered that it was (to me "also") a detective story. :)"

The same with me. There are a lot of easy-to-read detective stories out there.

[Rick-Founder JM CM BOOK CLUB]

I appreciate what Ellie and Susan feel- but honesty must place me on Diana's team :>))

[Manybooks]

Rick wrote: "I appreciate what Ellie and Susan feel- but honesty must place me on Diana's team :>))"

I think one of the problems for me was/is the fact that Eco just overwhelms us with detail and discussion. I would have enjoyed the discussions regarding religion and philosophy much more if there were not so much of it, if it were not so dense, more like small meals rather than huge, almost indigestible feasts (a happy medium).

[Diana]

Gundula wrote: "Rick wrote: "I appreciate what Ellie and Susan feel- but honesty must place me on Diana's team :>))"

I think one of the problems for me was/is the fact that Eco just overwhelms us with detail and ..."

For me, a good example, in this sense would be "The DaVinci Code". A thriller at heart, but details about religion and history give it that special twist... Of course, Dan Brown isn't a writer of the calibre of Umberto Eco, but I think that less of those discussion would have helped the speed of the story.

[Ellen]

Gundula wrote: "Rick wrote: "I appreciate what Ellie and Susan feel- but honesty must place me on Diana's team :>))"

I think one of the problems for me was/is the fact that Eco just overwhelms us with detail and ..."

Actually, I love this kind of discussion. It reveals to me information about my reading-even about my being.

I love (sometimes) endless, pointless, arcane discussions about philosophy and/or theology. I love how the medieval mind worked-tho' I'm endlessly thankful not to have been born then for so many reason. And the belief in the possibility of certainty in these matters is amazing to me-& so revealing of a different way not only of living but really of being in the world.
So I plow through these sections slowly, word by word, idea by idea & just when I'm totally sated & ready to throw the book away, Voila! I get a mystery treat.
I swear Eco did it on purpose to keep people like me hooked in: his real point being the theology/philosophy & the mystery being the bone thrown in to keep us hooked.
Just a thought! :D

[Ellen]

Another point: speed was not an issue in the middle ages or those who like to dwell there. 5 mph on a horse was pretty fast.

[Manybooks]

I just get get easily distracted and I have a tendency to research EVERYTHING. I love long discussions etc. as well, but I am easily distracted and very curious to the point that I have sometimes spent hours researching one word or phrase. It's fun, and it's enlightening, but you don't get much reading done, you don't always move forward fast enough (maybe I would have liked the MA, no I don't think so, I would have been accused of heresy and burned as a witch, he, he, he).

[Susan]

@ Gundula -- That's why I like this buddy read that is going slowly. I have a couple other books that going along trippingly, and then I stop and read a few dense pages of the Rose.

I agree with Ellie. The murder mystery is just a device to get you to read about a monastery in the middle ages. I'm not really a mystery buff. Its the monastery and the whole lifestyle and thought patterns that interest me. For instance, I on occasion read Tony Hillerman novels just to see what the native culture had to do with it, not for the whodunit part of it.

[Ellen]

Oh Gundula, I do the same thing-& some ways the internet is a real curse. One fact just leads to another leads to a whole new field of information. But that's partly what I find so satisfying about TNOTR, its very inclusiveness. And that was how they thought in the middle ages-not so broken up into specialties as we are today. The whole "tapestry" theory of life.
And thanks Susan. I think it's pretty clever of Eco who was much more interested in abstract thought to find a way to become a pop star!

[Marialyce]

I aagree with you girls. I very much like the idea of a mystery (life in the monastery) being hidden within a mystery. I so enjoy books in which I learn things I never knew or perhaps never really thought about. The descriptions of even what the monks ate and the things done during the various times of day and night are great. I did know of the terms and of course I knew that monks ate, but setting it down gives it a history and reason I believe.

[Diana]

Ellie wrote: "Another point: speed was not an issue in the middle ages or those who like to dwell there. 5 mph on a horse was pretty fast."

It is true, but the book was written in the mid 1900s, so the author belong to the modernists... and I agree to the others as well that the description of the monastery and the day to day life of the monks was great... it made such a realistic picture.
And I understand the long discussions about religion, because Eco was an essayist, so it is natural for him to include parts of his personal opinions OR certain debates that were going on...

[Shomeret]

Diana wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Rick wrote: "I appreciate what Ellie and Susan feel- but honesty must place me on Diana's team :>))"

I think one of the problems for me was/is the fact that Eco just overwhelms us ..."

Actually, I thought Dan Brown didn't handle the religion and philosophy discussion well either. I didn't appreciate the fact that the plot of The Da Vinci Code came to a screeching halt while the characters sat around to talk about religion and history. I especially didn't appreciate it because there was no new information there for me. I expect a novel to give us very small doses of information on a need to know basis. I put up with the bad pacing from Eco because it was really very interesting information that I hadn't known.

[Manybooks]

Shomeret wrote: "Diana wrote: "Gundula wrote: "Rick wrote: "I appreciate what Ellie and Susan feel- but honesty must place me on Diana's team :>))"

I think one of the problems for me was/is the fact that Eco just ..."

I think that was what bugged me the most about Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code. There was this attitude of novelty, of a completely new and controversial take on the story of Jesus Christ, but in reality, the idea that Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene got married and went to France is not new at all, I had heard and read about it long before Dan Brown ever published his book.

[Diane S ☔]

I also like the discussions on good vs. evil and the descriptions of the monastery. It sets the atmosphere and I don't think the story would work as well or be as good if we didn't understand how things were back there. A librarian at my local library once said that an author does not put one word in his novel that doesn't mean something. So if a times the desctiptions seem excessive I think we will find they are important elsewhere in the novel.