THE JAMES MASON COMMUNITY BOOK CLUB discussion
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THE NAME OF THE ROSE
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I enjoyed how Brother William, in a Sherlock Holmesian way determines not only that a horseis missing- but which horse is missing- adds abit of whimsey- bit too much detail on the architecture- but the diagram in beginning of book helped.
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read this after I posted above "Sherlock Holmes" reference!
I like how they come from two different religious orders, the Franciscans and the Benedictines and how sly comments are made about the inferiority and peculiarity of the Benedictines.
Diane wrote: "I like how they come from two different religious orders, the Franciscans and the Benedictines and how sly comments are made about the inferiority and peculiarity of the Benedictines."The Sherlock Holmes reference is perfect. Are there any Law & Order CI fans? William's deduction about the horse also reminded me of Goren.
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It reminded me of Poe's racionation
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3/3 First Day - Terce
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3/5 First Day- Sext
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My synopsis of today's section. Any mistakes?In their cell, William tells Adso more about his deductions about the horse by contrasting the universal horse versus the individual. Adso is sure he has heard William argue the opposite at a different time, but they’re tired, so Adso curls up in a blanket and is therefore unnoticed by the Abbot when he arrives to talk to William. The Abbot tells William that he has heard William is an “inquisitor” and is pleased that on occasion William has found people innocent. The Abbot talks about the Evil One being in people, but William says he just tries to decide if a man is innocent or guilty and leaves the Devil’s influence to God’s judgment. This is a revelation to the Abbot. They then speak about the Abbot’s current problem. A young and artistically talented monk was found dead, evidently fallen, jumped or pushed from an Aedificium window. William deduces that the Abbot does not think it was suicide because the monk has been buried in consecrated ground, and does not think it was an accident because the windows were too high to fall out of, and the window was closed. Servants are told the Aedificium is haunted, so a monk must have murdered him. The Abbot then implies he has more information but it is under the seal of confession. He tells William the Aedificium is the repository of all Christian knowledge, both true and untrue, in a time when the secular world is going to hell. But no one but the librarian & his assistant can enter the top floor of the Aedificium, which is both a mental and physical labyrinth. Then William asks after a man named Uberino. The Abbot tells him Uberino is always in church but expects him. As they leave the cell, a scream is heard, and the Abbot tells William it is pigs being slaughtered. Adso says William should have known better, but he will tell the story in chronological order.
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In their cell, William tells Adso more about his deductions about the horse by contrasting the universal horse versus the individual. Adso is sure h..."
perfect synopsis - William is becoming more facinating by the page!
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Also this seemd to be the time of the inquisition and everyone seems surprised that Brother William doesn't just see the devil in everyone presumed guilty. The inquisition was like the Salem Wich Hunts in which hysteria spread quickly, neighbors told on neighbors and most of those given to the inquisition were found guilty. Brother William actually finds some of these poor souls innocent. Actually looks further than just assuming they have been possessed by the devil. Very unique churchman for his time.
Bernadette wrote: "Diane wrote: "I like how they come from two different religious orders, the Franciscans and the Benedictines and how sly comments are made about the inferiority and peculiarity of the Benedictines...."I am a total Law & Order CI fan & I have been struck by the resemblance to Goren. I swear I could see him leaning sideway, lol.
I've been reading & following the posts but you'all are so interesting & complete, I haven't had much to add.
I, to, am enjoying this novel. It does remind me of The Shadow of the Wind in its semi dark, gothic nature and of course the library of lost books. Great synopsis, Susan!
Marialyce wrote: "I, to, am enjoying this novel. It does remind me of The Shadow of the Wind in its semi dark, gothic nature and of course the library of lost books. Great synopsis, Susan!"Thanks, Marialyce. The library immediately reminded me of the library of lost books, too.
Eco based the library on The Library of Babel and the librarian on its author Jorge Luis Borges. Borges was the "founder" of the literary genre magical realism. Also, if you noticed in the preface, when the second manuscript was found it was in a bookstore in Buenos Aires. (At the time, Borges was the librarian at the University of Buenos Aires)I haven't read The Shadow of the Wind, but Eco would probably see it (Shadow) as a "open" text that can trace it's symbolism through, perhaps, his own book and the Borges book and beyond. (Eco was a professor of semiotics.) This stands in contrast to the other literary theory of the time- literary deconstructionism.
Shay, do you think that every sentence and nuance was intentionally done by Eco? The mysterious quality of the book as well as the mysticism of the Catholic Church does merge to produce a type of "interpret as you like" type quality, I think. I know I have heard that this novel has never gone out of print and resurges in popularity often.I must say I am intrigued by the writing and being very careful with my reading of it. I, for one, am glad we are moving slowly.
I think that he did plan the symbolism intentionally. But, if you look at his academic writings, he's not an academic "extremist"- he recognizes that even in opposing academic theories there's often truth there. He's made statements acknowledging that the reader can never truly know the author's intent and even that author's can't even know every single one of their intentions. He once said that ALL texts are "open" texts- meaning they all can trace their symbolism and influence outward. The other thing I like is that he's framing so much of the novel in terms of contradictions and opposites. In literature, a lot of "tension" comes from that opposition- the battle between good and evil; past and future, etc. Having William be a Franciscan. I'm sure part of it is to put him in the company of Bacon and Occam, but I think some of it is the tension between the "pure" faith of the Franciscans in opposition to the cold logic of Bacon and Occam. Also, just think of all of the tension inherent in the Middle Ages- the Inquisition and yet most philosophical thought and knowledge (books) in the Western world was coming out of these monasteries. That both the Inquisition and the seeds of the Renaissance both came out of this time period. So, not a coincidence he would place a novel about the pull of reason and faith in this time period.
Plus this was the time of the Plague which devastated Europe and which many people thought of as the devil's work. I love that he has recognized the words mean different things to different people and to himself, the author. Over analyzing a work often takes the "joy" of reading it away.
The monasteries were the seat of learning during the Middle Ages, the monks being the scribes of history. One wonders if they would have added their own thoughts or ways of looking at things to a manuscript? Probably however, since they were doing God's work, they didn't though.
Marialyce wrote: "Plus this was the time of the Plague which devastated Europe and which many people thought of as the devil's work. I love that he has recognized the words mean different things to different peopl..."
I think this novel works because it's also just a good historical mystery. And, if that's all you want to get out of it, you can leave it at that. To me, that kind of stands in contrast with his second book, Foucault's Pendulum which seemed to me a more self-consciously academic book. Too dry, too concerned with being a post-modern, semiotic novel than being a good, readable novel.
Certainly, one that I probably won't read. These days I like wonderfully written as opposed to "academic" studies. :)
Marialyce wrote: "Plus this was the time of the Plague which devastated Europe and which many people thought of as the devil's work. I love that he has recognized the words mean different things to different peopl..."
Remember the Lollards in Katherine? You have to wonder how much came out of people's perceptions of the Church and maybe how it failed to protect them from the plague. (Although, of course, there were multiple "causes" of Lollardy) But you can see kind of the roots of the movement away from the Catholic Church in that time- from getting your relationship to God from the Church, to the more personal salvation in Protestantism. Kind of intriguing that the use of the vernacular, both in religious texts and literature, are coming into being around this time period. (Chaucer and Dante, for example) In a way, it's a moving away from the Church (Latin) towards the language of the people. Could you imagine how impossible increasing literacy would be if you had to be literate and fluent in two languages? (native tongue+Latin)
I loved the comment on the fragility of books when the Abbott was explaining why Brother William would not be allowed access to the library.
Shay wrote: "Eco based the library on The Library of Babel and the librarian on its author Jorge Luis Borges. Borges was the "founder" of the literary genre magical realism. Also, if ..."I thought I'd add what the Key has to say about the link between Borges and the librarian Jorge of Burgos. Both Borges and the librarian in The Name of the Rose are blind. The Key writers say that the character is portrayed ambivalently because Eco is ambivalent about Borges. Eco thinks that Borges is too pessimistic.
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3/5 First Day- Sext
I think the book is a very clever, dressed-up, filled with church history & medieval history (somewhat synonymous) - detective novel. With William as Sherlock. and who killed the monk.
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exactly!and the assistant as a Watson of sortsor a Boswell to Brother William's Johnson
Rick wrote: "Ellie wrote: "I think the book is a very clever, dressed-up, filled with church history & medieval history (somewhat synonymous) - detective novel. With William as Sherlock. and who killed the monk..."William also somewhat reminds me of Ellis' Peters' Brother Cadfael (and whenever I read, I see Sean Connery).
A great example of wrong yet perfect casting.That voice!
Uh the same thing goes on now, native language/ alien speech of the new religion-the mixture of old and new ordained 'bad habits'.
Wow, this section is really tough reading. I think this is where I gave up the last time I tried to read this.
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I am trying to look at the story as a detective story- enhanced by the aquired knowledge of the period- and finding it very enjoyable
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Gundula wrote: "Rick wrote: "Ellie wrote: "I think the book is a very clever, dressed-up, filled with church history & medieval history (somewhat synonymous) - detective novel. With William as Sherlock. and who ki..."tI must agree with you! That is who I think of a Cadfael as well!
I love Cadfael! And I so agree. Sherlock is the father of them all. :D
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Since I started this book, I have been trying to read everything very closely and understand everything as I went along. With "First Day - Sext," I was overwhelmed with the history of the Franciscans and the Spiritualists, etc., etc. I had no idea what was important to remember as far as understanding the rest of the book. I decided to read it through and absorb what I could. So, there are many viewpoints as to who are heretics and who aren't, and even Wm. & his old friend Ubertino disagree. And someone is after Ubertino. I hope the next section has a little more action and a little less background to it.
I agree way too much detail interrupts the flow of the narrative and looses the story. Also is making me loose interest. Plus the elaborations on the cleverness of Brother William is bothering me also.
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I couldn't help but think that this section represented the conflict between good (god and evil (the devil)It was long winded and certainly had enough devils represented as well as their minions. What did you think of the deformed monk? Was he a hunchback? From the description I couldn't help but think he is.
In a similar way, it's like the time to impress " A Darling" I picked up Hesse's Steppenwolf. My dumbass thought it was going to be about the old rock band. It's dense to be dense.
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It was long winded and certainly had enough devils represented as well as their minions...."
I tend to agree Marialyce- it seemed as if William was almost humoring the rambling Monk- as far as the other one- he seemed a mysterious character- one I suspect we will hear more from.
The next section is quite short- so discussions can go on to 5/8 for that one (discussion of herbs) and start reading next one 5/9- sound good?
Rick wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I couldn't help but think that this section represented the conflict between good (god and evil (the devil)It was long winded and certainly had enough devils represented as we..."
I'm sure we will hear more from the mysterious monk, but I doubt I will understand him. I have no idea what he said to begin with.
It seems to me that Bro. Wm.'s long conversations with Ubertino and the Abbot are a way to reveal Bro. Wm.'s more "modern" point of view. With the Abbot, he claims that he was more interested in whether a person was innocent or guilty, and not whether he was influenced by the devil. In his conversation with Ubertino, he expresses the more modern viewpoint that he is not sure whether passions and lusts come from God or from the Devil, and that both types seem very much the same to him. He opposes Ubertino's point of view that things are strictly from God or from the Devil, a thing that most of us today wrestle with in our own minds. The author is presenting the point of view of that era by showing what others, even good, learned people believe, as opposed to what Bro. Wm. believes, because we must identify with Bro. Wm. in order for the book to work. It would be difficult to place ourselves in the viewpoint of a medieval monk.
There was so much religious superstition back than and the church was all powerful. Brother William is indeed ahead of his time, actually considering the individual instead of just assuming that the person was inflicted by evil. Herbal chapter a welcome relief, interesting discussion on the usage of herbs.
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very keen summation!
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3/8-3/10 read/discuss AFTER NONES
3/10-3/12 read/discuss VESPERS
3/12-3/15(YOUR'S TRULY'S BIRTHDAY!)- read/discuss COMPLINE AND "FIRST DAY"
SOUND GOOD?
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THE JAMES MASON COMMUNITY BOOK CLUB
Books mentioned in this topic
Heresy: A History of Defending the Truth (other topics)True Notebooks: A Writer's Year at Juvenile Hall (other topics)
Lying Awake (other topics)
The Illuminator (other topics)
The Gargoyle (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Andrew Davidson (other topics)Jorge Luis Borges (other topics)
Jorge Luis Borges (other topics)
Looking forward to th..."
Yes, I read Heresy. Having also read a non-fiction biography of Giordano Bruno I wondered if he would involve himself in the affairs of England the way he did in that novel. I suppose it is possible. He was a very secretive man. Heresy definitely has plot parallels to The Name of the Rose.