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The Souls of Black Folk ~ W.E.B. Dubois
Cool. I am still waiting for the book store to call me and tell me the book is waiting for me. I'll probably pick it up next week.
Madrano wrote: "I have it here but i'm slow as molasses in winter with reading this year."I agree with that...I have had a major slow down the last few weeks.
Just downloaded parts from the net, will be reading it along with another book once I finish Up from Slavery. It's got me really curious now. For any one that's intersted here is the link.
http://www.bartleby.com/114/
Hello everyone :-)Is this the place where people will be actually discussing the book as they read it (and not wait until everyone finishes)?
I've started it - and I already have a few questions: for example in the second chapter he talks about the Freedman's Bank collapse. It must have been horrifying. I was wondering if anyone knew more about that chapter in history.
Thank you!
I do not know anything about it per se. I do know that the banks previously were not insured so that during the Depression, they all collapsed and people lost all their money. Now, banks are insured by the FDIC.I did find this www.tnstate.edu/library/digital/freed...
Rosanne wrote: "Hello everyone :-)Is this the place where people will be actually discussing the book as they read it (and not wait until everyone finishes)?
I've started it - and I already have a few questions..."
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Hi Rosanne !
You can start discussing it right here in this thread.
If you have a major spoiler, which I sort of doubt for this type of book, but if you do, put the word spoiler at the top of your post and the chapter.
Unfortunately, I am still waiting for the darn book from the book store. I have to call them up today. I should have just gotten it from the library. :(
I will start the book soon and join in. I have owned this book for a while and I haven't gotten around to reading it. So this forum hits the spot for me.
I have opened the book but work has been so busy I can't do more then open it. I plan to do some major reading over the weekend.
Marialyce wrote: "I do not know anything about it per se. I do know that the banks previously were not insured so that during the Depression, they all collapsed and people lost all their money. Now, banks are insure..."Thank you for that link - it was very interesting. Can you imagine how heartbreaking it must have been for these people to lose their money? Especially after the banks achieved some measure of success(esp. under those condition - it must have seemed Herculean!) I don't doubt that living in the South during Reconstruction must have felt just as bad as living in the war.
True, Rosanne. It must have set some people back years. I'd have a hard time trusting institutions after this. deb
I am about a little more than half way through and I have to wonder for what audience this book was written for? I don't think the average black man could have read it and probably not the average white man either. Unlike BTW which did seem to me a sort of an appeal to the masses for understanding of the things Tuskegee was able to do and donations that were required to do so, TSOBF, seems to be a more contentious read. Any thoughts on this idea?
I'm still waiting for my copy from the library or the book store. If my library doesn't get it today, I won't get it until next week as they don't have deliveries on the weekend.
Yahoo ! I see the book is waiting for me at the library. I'm in the middle of reading another book, but I can read two books, especially two very different non fiction books, at the same time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul...I still haven't started this book, as i'm still reveling in completing BTW's book.:-)
The Wiki source linked above states the book is comprised of essays DuBois wrote for the Atlantic Monthly magazine. Given that the magazine was created by H.B. Stowe, Longfellow and Emerson, among others, it appears articles were written for a crowd interested in good writing and politics. It's good to know this as we approach the book.
deborah
Marialyce wrote: "I am about a little more than half way through and I have to wonder for what audience this book was written for? I don't think the average black man could have read it and probably not the average ..."I agree Marialyce at the the book was written a large majority of the people would not be able keep up much less understand the book. I am having a little trouble concentrating on it, I feel as if I am studying something for college.
I have to admit I feel a little discrimination towards Dubois (no pun intended). There is a saying that no man can get drunk on the word wine meaning you have to experience it. I understand his feelings on the discrimination issue towards his people. But he did not live the same life as the AA's in the south, he did no go want they went through. Not that he was not discriminated, but I think it was a little different up north. But I am keeping an open mind and I'll continue reading to see if my opinion differs at the end.
I am going to start the first essay today.My copy has a lot of footnotes, so if you have any questions let me know.
As to who is the audience, I agree Deb. It is written for an educated crowd as one can see from the literary references he makes. And of course, it's his rebuttal to BTW.
Here are some footnotes from the first essay-
In the first essay he makes allusions to the Bible. -An ironic rewriting of Exodus 2.22, in which Moses declares, "I have been a stranger in a strange land."
He writes,"The shades of the prison-house closed round us all." This is a reference to William Wordsworth's Ode Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood.
He writes, "Take any shape but that, and my firm nerves shall never tremble!"
This is Macbeth 3.4 102-3. Du Bois symbolically represents the American character as guilty and blood stained, like the central character of Shakespeare's tragedy.
In those sombre forests of his striving his own soul rose before him, and he saw himself, -darkly as though a veil,.."
This is from the bible 1 Corinthians 12:12 "For now we see through the a glass, darkly, but when face to face: now know in part; but hen shall I know even as also I am know.
- ...the "higher" against the "lower" races.
-During the Enlightenment, philosophers such as Kant and Hume were convinced that certain races could be ranked hierarchically according to their psychological and moral characteristics as well as their bodily traits.
...The all pervading desire to inculcate disdain for everything black, from Toussaint to the devil
-Toussaint L'Ouverture (1746-1803) leader of the black forces during the Haitian Revolution that overthrew French rule. After Napoleon tricked him into going willingly to France in 1800, L'Ouverture died there in 1803.
It's not an easy read for sure. But I hope with the aid of the footnotes and all of you, we will be able to make sense of it all. :)
Thank you for the foot notes - every bit helps!I agree that this book starts off like a text book - and that can be tedious. We read one book on Reconstruction for my history book club and that was also very difficult to get through.
Oddly enough, that must have been a fascinating time both filled with tremendous hope and disappointments. The slaves had gained their freedom but probably still felt they were in "enemy territory". (and I have no doubt that many white Southerns were stewing in their bile.)
I don't mean to suggest that there weren't any brave people that sincerely worked for improvement. And to take that just a step further the United States was stunningly lucky/fortunate/blessed/you-name-it as far as being able to move beyond the war. There are plenty places on earth that have never been able to heal internal strife (think of Ireland or the Middle East).
Obviously, there are many layers. I think DuBois is trying to be very factual and not just vent a lot of rage. There are many very poignant passages, including:
"The masses of those to whom slavery was but a dim recollection of childhood found the world a puzzling thing: it asked little of them and they answered with little, and yet it ridiculed their offerings."
When you think of it, just living day to day must have been heroic!
I agree with you, Rosanne. I think all sides were suffering. The results of war are never pretty and since the South was truly devastated, I think that there were not enough or possibly any "programs" that helped them out of the straights they were in.Today we run to countries devastated by war, famine, weather, etc. No one ran to help the South recover from the effects of war.
Just thought I'd add here that when I was in High School The Atlantic Monthly was regarded as an intellectual's magazine. No advertisements. And something that your teacher would have and did suggest that we read. Very high level.
Bobbie57 wrote: "Just thought I'd add here that when I was in High School The Atlantic Monthly was regarded as an intellectual's magazine. No advertisements. And something that your teacher would have and did sugge..."Not that I want to use this forum as an endorsement but I subscribe to the Atlantic and I love it :-) AND they still use it in schools - but now there are advertisements... oh well!
Well that certainly would be a good strategy for securing intelligent people to believe his thoughts were ones that should be listened to. The thing I most "pay attention to" and find fascinating are when he uses numbers or figures to give information, That enlightens me more than the solitary stories that he often relates.There are some chapters that I learn much from while others I find more to be a rant. While UFS seemed emotionless at times, TSOBF seems too full of emotions that might have inflamed more than charmed the reader. Oftentimes, I get the overwhelming feeling that Du Bois felt the Negro was better off being a slave for what came after was a worse slavery of sorts.
What solutions could there have been? I often heard it said that it is great to go to war with America because we are the only country who will come back and return you to a level of prosperity you never knew before. Unfortunately, we did not apply that principle to ourselves.
I just finished the Forethought and essay 1. I found if I read it slowly, almost as one would read poetry, with exaggerated stops at commas and periods, it all came together very nicely. In fact I found some of the writing quite beautiful. One line in particular I thought was very moving. I thought it could also be said of any young person who died way to young. "Throughout history, the powers of single black men flash here and there like falling stars, and die sometimes before the world has rightly gauged their brightness."
Du Bois, starts off with his famous line that "the problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color-line."
He tells the reader that, metaphorically speaking, there is a veil between white and black folks. And that in this book he will attempt to raise that veil.
Du Bois explains his idea of "double conscience". The notion that for the black man "one is always looking at one's self through the eyes of another". He writes, "He began to have a dim feeling that, to attain his place in the world, he must be himself and not another." When I reflected upon this, I thought is very poignant.
He then has two lines that I took to be references to Booker T. Washington.
"Slowly but steadily, the the following years, a new vision began gradually to replace the dream of political power,-a powerful movement, the rise of another ideal to guide the unguided, another pillar of fire by night after a clouded day. It was the ideal of 'book learning'..."
"Work, culture, liberty,- all these we need, not singly but together, not successively but together, each growing and aiding each...."
As we read in BTW book, he didn't see the need for them to learn Greek and Latin or go to college. I took Du Bois' line to mean that he thought black people needed to learn these things simultaneously along with the trades that BTW was advocating.
I enjoy seeing how an author will work the title of a book in the text. Du Bois eloquently ends the first chapter by saying, now that that he has outlined the book, he tells us the reason he wrote the book is so ,"... that men may listen to the striving in the souls of black folks."
I may be totally off base, but this is what I took from the Forethought and chapter 1. What did you all take from the chapter 1 ?
Chapter 1 I do like the way DuBois describes the Negro ..."the Negro is a sort of seventh son, born with a veil, and gifted with second sight is this American world, ...it is a peculiar sensation this double consciousness this sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others..."and here "He simply wishes to make it possible for a man to be both a Negro and an American, without being cursed and spit upon by his fellows, without the doors of Opportunity closed roughly in his face."
I am finding this author has a better worldly view of where the country was after the Civil War.
I definetly am enjoying this book. It is a more difficult read. I finished essay 1 also, and I feel as though I am reading a work of passion. It is wonderfully written and I find my self looking up the Freedmens Buruea as I remember hardly anything about from way back when....excpet that it existed. In my version they get into the meaning behind the veil as a sort of "double consciousness". "Double consciousness defines a psychological sense experienced by African Amercan's whereby they posses a national identity, "an American", within a nation that despises their racial identity, "a Negro". It also refers to the ability of black Americans to themselves only through the eyes of white americans, ..."
I thought it interesting discussion. I am kind of going back and forth to reading the essay and going back to the forward.
Marialyce wrote: "Well that certainly would be a good strategy for securing intelligent people to believe his thoughts were ones that should be listened to. The thing I most "pay attention to" and find fascinating a..."Oddly enough, I'm finding that when DuBois uses numbers and figures the reading gets a little tedious for me but when he tells personal stories it's much more compelling.
ALSO, I think I expected it to be MORE of a passionate rant, so I'm almost surprised that the tone is as even as it is. But I'm still within the first few chapters.
I also wouldn't be surprised that for some people the freedom immediately following the Civil War was worse that slavery. I remember hearing a story about a woman who was able to gain her freedom pre-Civil War. However, when she went out to find work she really suffered tremendous indignities. I'm sorry I forgot the particulars because it was rather a heart breaking story. The point being is that this was most likely played out on a grand scale following the war. I guess that why I'm surprised that the book isn't more filled with rage.
What people can endure is beyond imagination (and this is since the dawn of time!) I like to believe that we have great reserves of strength and hopefully that puts some of our petty problems in perspective :-)
Rosanne wrote:ALSO, I think I expected it to be MORE of a passionate rant, so I'm almost surprised that the tone is as even as it is. But I'm still within the first few chapters.----------
Yes ! I agree. I just finished essay 3 on Booker T. Washington. He disagrees with BTW's ideas but he doesn't attack the man. It's a very civil discourse. Compare that to the discourse we sometimes are exposed to on cable TV and radio today.
Whether you agree with Du Bois or not, the way he presents his argument is actually quite refreshing.
Essay 2- Of the Dawn of FreedomThis is the footnote I have on the Freedman's Bureau.
The U.S. Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen, and Abandoned Lands established in 1865 to act primarily as a welfare agency for freed slaves. Its efforts also included establi8shing courts and negotiating labor relation between the ex-slaves and the Sourthern landowners. Despite lack of funding and personnel, the Bureau built Negro hospitals, schools, and colleges. Always controversial for its attempt to improve the rights of freedmen, it was dissolved by Congress in 1872.
Up-thread someone asked about the Freedman's bank. Here is the footnote I have on that.
The Freedman's Saving and Trust Company was incorporated by Congress in 1865, but failed in 1874 under its final president, Frederick Douglas.
Fredrick Douglas:
Frederick Douglass (born Frederick Augustus Washington Bailey, February 1818 – February 20, 1895) was an American social reformer, orator, writer and statesman. After escaping from slavery, he became a leader of the abolitionist movement, known for his dazzling oratory[2] and incisive antislavery writing. He stood as a living counter-example to slaveholders' arguments (see this example) that slaves did not have the intellectual capacity to function as independent American citizens.[3] He became a major speaker for the cause of abolition.
In addition to his oratory, Douglass wrote several autobiographies, eloquently describing his life as a slave, and his struggles to be free. His first autobiography, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave, was published in 1845 and was his best-known work, influential in gaining support for abolition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic...
Here is a small time-line. To help put things in perspective. 1809 Abraham Lincoln born
1818 Frederick Douglass born
1845 Frederick Douglass publishes Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave,
1856 Booker T. Washington born
1861 Civil War begins
1863 Emancipation Proclamation- Abolished Slavery in Rebel States
1865 Civil War ends April 9
1865 Abraham Lincoln died April 15
1865 Freeman's Bureau established
1865 The Freedman's savings & Trust established
1865 13th Amendment adopted on December 6 - Abolished Slavery
1866 14th Amendment - provided Equal Protection Under The Law
1868 - W.E.B. Du Bois Born
1870 15 Amendment - right to vote given to black males
1872 Freedman's Bureau dissolved
1874 The freedman's Savings & Trust fails
1895 Frederick Douglass died
1915 Booker T. Washington died
1963 W.E.B Du Bois died
Alias Reader wrote: "He disagrees with BTW's ideas but he doesn't attack the man. It's a very civil discourse. Compare that to the discourse we sometimes are exposed to on cable TV and radio today."
I also like that although he strongly disagrees with BTW approach he does not attack him. I mean, I think he was trying to do what he beleived the right way in a very hostile situation and Du Bois recognized that in Essay 3.
I would like to see more of this in our politics today...different approachs not fighting with each other to get to the means.
Part 3 Of Booker T. Washington and othersI liked the sentiment expressed in the section on criticism. I think it applies to us today, also.
"Honest and earnest criticism from those whose interests are most nearly touched, - criticism of writers by readers, of government by those governed, of leaders by those led- this is the soul of democracy and th safeguard of modern society."
I think Du Bois presents his rebuttal to BTW very well.
Chapter 11 "To be a poor man is hard, but to be a poor race in a land of dollars is the very bottom of hardships." "The red stain of bastardy, which two centuries of systematic legal defilement of Negro women had stamped upon his race, meant not only the loss of ancient African chastity, but also the hereditary weight of mass corruption, from white adulterers..."
The power of the ballot we need in sheer self defense,-- else what shall save us from a
second slavery?"
I found these three statements had a powerful effect on me when I read them. I guess it
is hard to be poor in this land of plenty (at least then it was!) Looking around you and
seeing those whites getting ahead, not worrying about food, education, work etc., while
the Negro really had none of these options or at least very few. I found in this chapter
also the description of the Freedmen's Bureau to be revealing. It was kind of doomed to
failure. The country was still at war and here we had millions of people freed without a
very cohesive plan for their "freedom." It almost made me think the Lincoln's timing to free
the black man came too soon. He might have waited until after the war was over so that
the government could have turned their full attention to the question of the slaves. I
remember the Bureau getting a paragraph in the history books and yet it was a very
powerful organization and not all bad.
The idea of the women also stuck me. What was Du Bois trying to say here? Was it the the women were spoiled, the children of mixed race were somewhat doomed, or that black men might not want women who had been defiled by the white planters? ...or was there something else?
The vote so necessary to the betterment of the race, seemed to be a guarantee that the Negro population would never be slaves again. If they received this freedom, Du Bois seemed to think, the other freedoms might naturally follow.
You are way ahead of me, Marialyce. I am just finished chapter 4.However I wanted to comment on one of your points.You wrote,
"It almost made me think the Lincoln's timing to free the black man came too soon. He might have waited until after the war was over so that
the government could have turned their full attention to the question of the slaves."
The Emancipation Proclamation (1863) only abolished slavery in the rebel state. This was done so the Confederacy could not use the black man's labor or use him in battle. So when the black men came north, the Union was able to use them in battle against the South. This was a big advantage for the north.
Slavery for all was not abolished until after the Civil War, when the 13th Amendment was adopted on December 6, 1865.
Chapter 4 Of the Meaning of ProgressSome footnotes for this chapter.
- "When Lawrences stopped, I knew that the doubts of the old folks about book learning had conquered again, and so, toiling up the hill, and getting as far into the cabin as possible, I put Cicero 'pro Archia Poeta' into the simplest English with local applications...."
~~~footnote~~ Cicero's oration in which he defends the poet Archias, and, by extension, the value of art to society.
"The front room was full of great fat white beds, scrupulously neat; and there were bad chromos on the walls..."
~~~ footnote~~ Colored print produced from a series of stone or zinc plates.
"I rode to Nashvill in the Jim Crow car."
~~ footnote~~ A car on a train designated for blacks only. Jim Crow laws mandated segregated seating. In practice, whites often rode in Jim Crow cars, although blacks were not allowed in the "white only" cars.
This chapter gave an interesting look into the life of a teacher. They couldn't even afford their own place to live, they lived at their students homes.
I thought it was quite poignant and sad when he was excited to get his first job, and told his certificate would do and asked what salary he wanted. Then we are told, "but even then fell the awful shadow of the Veil, for they ate first, the I -alone."
I found these three statements had a powerful effect on me when I read them. I guess it is hard to be poor in this land of plenty (at least then it was!)
I think it is still hard and maybe in a way more so because the pictures of plenty are before everyone on TV everyday.
Bobbie57 wrote: I think it is still hard and maybe in a way more so because the pictures of plenty are before everyone on TV everyday. ------------------
I can't remember what book it was that I read, but the author made the point that in the past one had only to keep up with their neighbors. And since they were your neighbors they were in the same socio-economic group as you.
Now people are trying to keep up with fictional families on TV. Something that is basically impossible and unrealistic to do. Unfortunately, this often leads many into debt.
Alias Reader wrote: "You are way ahead of me, Marialyce. I am just finished chapter 4.However I wanted to comment on one of your points.You wrote,
"It almost made me think the Lincoln's timing to free the black man..."
Oh no, Alias, those were my notes from Chapter 2. I put them in Roman numerals.
Bobbie57 wrote: "I found these three statements had a powerful effect on me when I read them. I guess it is hard to be poor in this land of plenty (at least then it was!)
I think it is still hard and maybe in..."
I think so too, Bobbi, but at least now, we do have programs that try to help the poor. I realize that they are not always successful, but at least Welfare, food stamps, WIC, etc are in place.
Chapter 3 It was interesting the way Du Bois wrote about Booker T. Washington. You could see a bit of the more militant stance he took as opposed to the more easy going view that Mr. Washington had. He keeps writing of the vote as if that was the most important way for the black man to be recognized. He seemed to think that Washington's way of appeasement and trying to make oneself invaluable to the white man would not work. He also seemed to think that the educational system Washington was espousing did not include learning for the very bright black man.
Was it possible that the South blamed the black man for the war and not so much the issue of slavery per se?
Chapter 4 I got the feeling that Du Bois loved Josie. I had the feeling that Du Bois was trying to makes one think that "look what awful things happened to these people." He never says why he left teaching though, perhaps because his students showed up infrequently. I really thought that this chapter as oddly unfinished.It did show however, something that he had lived through personally, not must wrote about from having heard about it. In one sense, I felt it is the most authentic chapter so far.
reply | edit | delete | flag *
Marialyce wrote: "Bobbie57 wrote: "I found these three statements had a powerful effect on me when I read them. I guess it is hard to be poor in this land of plenty (at least then it was!)
I think it is still har..."
While we are not likely to allow people to die of starvation, I was trying to refer more to the psychology. Now people feel deprived because they cannot keep up with what they see on TV. And you don't have to be really poor to go after that. Some people I know think you are poor (and I have heard that word used so I am not making this up) if you think that you cannot afford to go out for lunch everyday or to the theater whenever the spirit moves you. Actually with the cost of movies these days I'll include that. Yes, I am talking about myself. Some people I deal with on a regular basis think I am poor. I don't think I am.
Marialyce wrote: It did show however, something that he had lived through personally, not must wrote about from having heard about it. In one sense, I felt it is the most authentic chapter so far.."------------
Totally agree. I find when he does make it more personal I find it a more powerful read.
Marialyce wrote: Oh no, Alias, those were my notes from Chapter 2. I put them in Roman numerals. ------------
:) lol
Marialyce wrote:Chapter 4 I got the feeling that Du Bois loved Josie. I had the feeling that Du Bois was trying to makes one think that "look what awful things happened to these people."
He never says why he left teaching though, perhaps because his students showed up infrequently. I really thought that this chapter as oddly unfinished. "
-------------
Yes. It did seem he had feeling for her. That is why I found it so jarring when he wrote so starkly, and really without any explanation, that she had died.
As to why he left teaching there, I seem to recall that he says he found it to not be intellectually stimulating enough. I am not sure if he meant the teaching part or living in that area. Either way he felt stunted intellectually. I can see that. He really had no peers there. Also living in that poverty has to wear one down.
Marialyce wrote: "Chapter 3 It was interesting the way Du Bois wrote about Booker T. Washington. You could see a bit of the more militant stance he took as opposed to the more easy going view that Mr. Washington had..."-------------------
Actually, I am quite surprised by how tame and reserved he states his argument. I wouldn't call it militant at all. He strongly disagrees with BTW about higher education for blacks, voting and the creation of civil inferiority. But he argument is presented in a very civil manner. Before I read this book I had a very different view of their "feud". I guess I was comparing it to Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X.
I just finished chapter 7. Du Bois has such a poetic way with words. I love it when he writes thinks such as, "Before the Temple of Knowledge swings the gate of Toil."
Though sometimes it seems, as in Chapter 5, Of the Wings of Atlanta, chapter he takes it a bit too far and throws in so many allusions his point is getting obscured. Good thing my copy has a ton of footnotes. :)
Chapter VI am not quite sure what Du Bois was trying to say in this chapter. He went on and on about Atlanta and seemed to be on some kind of rant which I was not sure accomplished much. Towards the end of the chapter, he began to make a bit more sense to me as he spoke of the various ways to make education worthwhile for all. I did like the fact that he wanted men to work not only for money but for the sense of self worth one gets for a job well done. ..."the worker must work for the glory of his handiwork, not simply for pay;the thinker must think for truth, not for fame."
I am beginning to think that this work sounds like a thesis of sorts. I do not think it was written for the black man of his day or the white man either. How many would have had the ability to read and comprehend his words?
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Book:
Author: W.E.B. Du Bois
When: The discussion will be held February 2011. However, the thread will remain open so you may comment after that.
Spoiler Etiquette: Please put the words spoiler in your post if giving away a major plot element. Also There are 7 chapters. Please put the chapter you are discussing at the top of your post.
Synopsis: The Souls of Black Folk is a classic work of American literature by W. E. B. Du Bois. It is a seminal work in the history of sociology, and a cornerstone of African-American literary history. The book, published in 1903. Scholarship. A revolutionary collection of essays about the African-American experience at the turn of the twentieth century.
Wiki Link about the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soul...
About the Author: Wiki bio of the author
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._B....
Amazon link:http://www.amazon.com/Souls-Black-Fol...