Breaking Dawn
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Twilight v. Harry Potter?
message 301:
by
Hope
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rated it 1 star
Mar 25, 2009 06:20PM
ok kelsey I don't know you but I know that apparently you are like edward and can read peoples minds because you r definitely trying to. So whatever you think you can do you definitely can not. we do not just like it for the fantisy stuff there is a passion in SM's books that are not in HP
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I know I don't really like jacob i guess he is ok sometimes but he is really annoying and pushy
Thank you Hope! Exactly. So maybe it's not suspense like HP vs Dark Lord, but the way you feel just bursts from evey bone and muscle in your body. My heart sometimes can't contain it all so it goes into my dreams.
Ok, I must start off with I don't see how Harry Potter and Twilight are compairable. These two books have nothing in common to even compare too, well, at least in my a opinion! J.K. Rowling worked magic with Harry Potter she didn't just get children reading again, she got parents wanting to read the same thing as their children. How many author can say that?
Twilight good, I read it, but it nothing compared to Harry Potter.
srry autum i was typing kinda fast
basically most of the things u said i didn't think were very true
basically most of the things u said i didn't think were very true
Well, that's why it called personal opinions. And Ameberli, you're so right, you can NOT compare these books. I must say though, that some people can't follow the complex plotline of HP. So they need something a little less intense. Plus, it's all a matter of perspective. Mine, well obviously, I like Twilight better. Even if it's only by a small amount. About the humour, when did you laugh in HP besides with Fred and George. I couldn't help laughing outloud several times in Twilght. (And that's pretty hard to do with me) Other books I may only chuckle in my mind.
To Ivy, what about Alice or Esmee or Carlisle? They are very good characters. I don't like Jacob anymore than a friend because that's all he was ever supposed to be. And Bella is NOT shallow for the last time. Evidence PLEASE!
Vedanti, the third book was my favorite book because it had little to do with Voldemort and it wasn't overflowing with teen angst... I get enough of that in school....Autumn, you are my new favorite person... and other then simply going to the dictionary, I have no idea how to upgrade our vocabulary....
Now I don't think Jacob is dull because I know people that resmeble him in my own life.... but I do agree that he should never be with Bella... He makes a better friend then lover.... Simple as that...
There is more passion in SM then in HP but that is because Hp isn't a romance novel. Twilight is.... and to those who seem to think that there is more passion in HP than in Twilight, you need a new deffinition of hot steamy passion relating to love not ideas.....
Why is Bella shallow? I don't understand. Give an example, because I can't argue with you if I have no idea what you're talking about.
HP is very light. Just from the style you can tell JKR doesn't take herself too seriously. That's true for Twilight, too, but not by the third and fourth books.
HP is very light. Just from the style you can tell JKR doesn't take herself too seriously. That's true for Twilight, too, but not by the third and fourth books.
Bella isn't shallow anywhere, Rosalee is shallow.... everyone knows that... and like Auntumn said, she Bella wants to disappear totally (with Edward of course) and hates the attention she does get even from her parents... she is just more of a solitary person.... who only needs Edward....
Autumn, seriously, you are quickly becoming one of my most favorite person.... there were very few times that I did laugh in HP because it was so serious.... although I might have laughed when it wasn't supposed to be funny.... in Twilight I laughed all the time as did my sister.... (that helped us tell where they were) and as the books continued the laughter did.... I mean there was still laughter in Hp but because of the dark and hard times in HP not many of the characters themselves laughed... when the characters aren't happy and laughing, the readers can't either (unless they have a twisted mind....)One thing I will say to both HP and Twilight... they both have a very strong set of characters that are interesting to keep up with... say what you want but both sets are all good, whether you like the character or not, that does not mean that they aren't good characters...
SM never even meant for her books to be so popular! So it really wasn't until the last two books that she really had her best work. And it would not be right if Jacob was Bella's lover. Eww. I think JKR is a bit full of herself. She's been in the spotlight longer and probably doesn't think anyone could take her place...SM is not accustomed to all the attention and is focused on being a good mom, too. Those of you defending HP haven't giving any proof to why Edward is dull(he's not), why Bella is shallow (is soooo not), and why Jacob is the only good character.(Puh-leaze!)
Autumn wrote: "How can SM be repetitive? There's no pattern to her stories! You never know what going to happen next! And quite frankly, you can NOT compare the two in any way. The only thing they have in com..."She's repetitive because she uses the same stock descriptions and actions over and over again. Most people aren't talking about plot twists, they're talking about how Edward chuckles a lot, how his skin description is repeated a couple time word for word, etc.
Shallow usually means that someone isn't a deep thinker, is self-centered, only thinks about looks, etc. It rarely has to do with a person's love or dislike of material things. For me shallow usually means selfish, and while Bella isn't a total a-hole, she's pretty selfish from everything I've gleaned from her actions.
I doubt JKR knew she would be so popular, and I've heard it put quite a bit of pressure on her when it came to finishing the series.
Why would it be gross for Jacob to be Bella's lover? I mean, the same could be said for Edward. He's way older than her.
On my characterization comment: I wasn't saying JKR was crappy at characterization. I do think it's one of her weaker points. Her stronger points are pacing, which IMO she was a master of. A lot of really good books have dull parts or lagging parts of the story, whereas most of the Harry Potter books are very smooth and seamless in transitioning through time and events.
And by having simple characters people can see them in their own light. I don't think an author *should* necessarily show *or* tell the reader every little thing about the character. Let them speculate and form their own opinions. It's easier to identify and see yourself in a character who hasn't been made into a practically breathing person.
And no matter what I am still going to stand by my point that both books are excellent and I love them both. I just feel that Harry Potter was written on a much deeper level and deserves that recognition.
I agree with this comment 8D
Autumn,Here are a few examples of how Bella could be seen as shallow:
She gets a boyfriend and dumps her friends. She knows Jacob is in love with her but she still encourages a touchy relationship because she misses Edward. She kisses Jacob in front of her fiance. She tells Jacob that she can see herself happily married to him with kids when she knows she's marrying Edward. What good could come of being cruel like that? She dances romantically with Jacob for an extended period of time on her wedding day. She won't discuss her pregnancy with her husband but runs to the shelter of Rosalie. Fine, want to keep the monster child, but work together with your husband, discuss it, don't leave him shut out. She wants to name her son EJ without even asking Edward if he's ok naming his son after Jacob. She's clingy to Jacob when she's pregnant with his rival's baby. She's whiny about what everyone does for her. SM starts out Twilight by telling us that Bella is not selfish but then spends the rest of the series showing how selfish she is. You can take SM's word for it, or see for yourself that the opposite is true. I liked Bella at the beginning of Twilight, but once she becomes nothing more than the vampire's girlfriend, her personality disappears.
I personally like Edward because I think creepiness works on a vampire, but here are a few reasons why someone would not like Edward:
He has a temper, bad personality trait in a guy. He won't let Bella make her own decisions but controls her, sometimes by physical force, an even worse characteristic. His jealousy is perturbing too, couple that with the fact that he can read everyone's mind, and I cannot imagine how the relationship would pan out if Bella had not been interested. Plus he starts sneaking in her room before they are even an item, that's creepy. Once he has her wrapped around his finger, then he decides he better do the moral thing and leave so she's not involved in his world, after she's emerged in it. It makes him human and flawed and I like that, but I don't like his temper, control, jealousy issues. I've said it before, but the characteristics that make Edward a great vampire character would make him an abusive stalker in real life. Plus he's cold. So do you see why someone would like Jacob better? (Just for the record, I am not a Jacob fan.)
You're reading a lot into SM & JKR's personalities which in my opinion are completely reversed. English abruptness is not the same as snobbery. JKR has shied away from the spotlight. She was the first celebrity author and fame came unexpected to her too. How can you say that SM didn't expect fame and she did? JKR is a good mom too and I don't see where you get the impression that she is full of herself. Everything I've seen with her has been humble with a lot of accountability to her fans and the messages she is sending them. If you read SM's blog you'll see the competition she promotes between her and JKR. She even compares herself to Jane Austen, one of the greatest authors of all time. If that's not full of yourself, I don't know what is. Everyone I know who has been to one of signings has not been impressed by her conceit and all the videos I've watched of her online have been smug and derogatory to readers who disagree with her. SM is the only author I know who has dissed her editor in public. Most authors are extremely grateful to the suggestions of others. I think the errors in Breaking Dawn go to prove that she finally had enough pull to bully her editors, publishers into letting her novel go through as is without their feedback. Her tantrum at the leak of Midnight Sun in my opinion has more to do with the backlash of Breaking Dawn; she was building herself up and up and then was deflated. I have to disagree with you that her last two books are her best work; they have gotten progressively worse while JKR's have gotten better with each release. Plus, SM is the one who did a cameo in her movie, not JKR. SM is the one who enjoys the celebrity spotlight, not JKR.
I know what shallow means, ok? I just don't see how Bella is seen as shallow in the eyes of anyone. I would appreciate it if some people would watch their language when writing a post. Edward is really not older then her. He's frozen in time mentally and physically. It would be gross with Jacob because he turns into a wolf. And I only see him as a friend.
I actually find that it's harder to identify with a character when they haven't been made into a "practically breathing person." There's no way I can connect with Harry because he doesn't seem real.
A lot of people would disagree about HP's characters not being "practically breathing" people, myself included. I don't know how either of you can say that Harry doesn't seem real. JKR would not promote such emotion in her readers about his destiny if he weren't. Argue that you don't relate to the magical world, but you can't truly say that Harry is not a strong, believable (non-shallow) character. Bella is the perfect example of a loose skeletal character who is personality-less and it works for Twilight because girls picture themselves in Bella's place. If she were a stronger character then girls would have a harder time seeing themselves in her shoes.
Here are my agruments against what you said Annalisa.Bella did not dump her friends. Jessica wasn't even a real friend in the first place. Yes she hung out with Edward more, she wasn't very close with the kids at school. She never encouraged Jacob's feelings towards her. She made it clear she just wanted to be friends. Yeah, she kissed him and she saw all that, but that was Renesmee in her body creating that pull. The dance with Jacob was not romantic in anyway. It was merely a last goodbye because at that time they would never be able to be friends again. She didn't discuss her pregnancy with Edward because she knew he wanted to get rid of the baby. And all this time she's trying to please everybody. She doesn't like seeing Edward or Jacob hurt. She doesn't want Jessica to be unhappy. She is just thinking of everyone besides herself.
I'm not agruing on the point of Edward vs Jacob, merely that I prefer Edward. I will also not agrue on the subject of the authors. It's pointless.
My opinion can not be swayed in that Bella is not shallow. I can not imagine myself in her shoes.
That doesn't mean I don't wish I were her. I just connect. And if she has no personality, how can she be shallow. She is very strong. If she weren't, there would be no story. I enjoyed both series, but Twilight is better.
Bella did dump her friends. Jessica was not a real friend, but what about Angela? And all the guys who were kind to her? Gone from the story. She doesn't think another thought about them after Edward shows up. She absolutely encouraged Jacob's feelings. Verbalizing that you do not care about something and then snuggling with them, spending all your time with them, touching them all the time, is encouraging them. Because she knew how he felt, she should have been cautious with him. If she were thinking about his feelings instead of her own, she would cut the ties. I think the argument that it is her half-genetics of Renesmee that creates the pull between Jacob and Edward is one of the weakest arguments in the series. It is utterly ridiculous, especially since the imprinting works on the werewolf's end, not hers. I cannot buy into on any level; it is SM's attempt to smooth over the relationship that should never have happened. And even if there were that pull, once she committed to marry Edward, she should NEVER had placed her lips anywhere near the vicinity of Jacob's lips, and to do it with Edward standing right there seeing it and hearing Jacob's thoughts is beyond cruel. Her dance with Jacob at the wedding was romantic. A stiff dance in the company of others would not be romantic. Curled up in his arms relishing in his presence in private is romantic, if not on her end at least very much on his. There are better ways to say goodbye on your wedding day. I understand that Edward wanted to get rid of the baby, but he did because he cared about Bella. She should have discussed it with him and let him be a part of it instead of stonewalling him to Rosalie's barred teeth. If he'll let Bella have whatever she wants to the point that he'll ask Jacob to father her children, he'll listen to her. She doesn't like seeing Edward or Jacob hurt so in the process she continually hurts both of them. Trying to please everyone pleases nobody and shows great immaturity on her part. And when she is recklessly trying to commit suicide in New Moon despite what it would do to Charlie, she is thinking of nobody but herself.
The guys were not her friends, they just had crushes on her. And Angela was absorbed in her relationship with Ben. Don't you touch your friends, lay on each other while you watch a movie, and spend lots of time together? If you don't, then I have to say that's weird. The dance, let's see lost kid suddenly shows up at Bella's wedding and then has to dissappear. How would that look to everyone else? I know she should have discussed it with Edward, but then she would have lost the agruement with his scorching eyes. She was only suicidal because she was depressed.
Just because Angela has a boyfriend they can't be friends? Getting a boyfriend is not the end of your social life. It's one of my beefs with the story that it's telling girls that once you get a boyfriend you forget everyone else. Bella's world revolves only around Edward. I don't even know how to respond to the comment that you think Bella spending all her time exclusively with Jacob and always snuggling with him (and opening up to him on such a personal level) when he is madly in love with her is just normal, teenage behavior. If you knew a guy was obsessed with you, would you do that to him and not think anything of it? It gives Jacob false hope and encourages him to fall more in love with her. What I don't like about Jacob's and Bella's relationship is that it detracts from her relationship with Edward and lessens its potency. I'm not sure what your argument with the wedding is. Jacob shows up, she says goodbye in a respectable married woman way, a quick hug at best, but she doesn't continue to play with his emotions, which are adversely affected by their encounter. I'm married and I don't touch my guy friends because physical touch is just something you don't do when you're committed to someone else, especially if that guy is someone you just told you could see yourself married to. And I doubt Bella would give up her baby to Edward's scorching eyes. If she's that swooned by Edward's beauty, then she's as shallow as people who say Bella loves Edward only for his looks think. She didn't consider Edward's feelings at all about her pregnancy. I know why Bella is suicidal. You said Bella is thinking of everyone beside herself and I'm saying she spent an entire book thinking of nobody but herself between her suicide attempts and using Jacob.
I really don't understand why we are even arguing about this! They are totally different story lines and everybody is entitled to their own opinion!
Edward is really not older then her. He's frozen in time mentally and physicallWell now that *is* just gross. I mean if he can't develop mentally and emotionally then he has no business dating anyone. Just because he doesn't age physically that doesn't mean his mind if frozen.
Most people's issue with older guys dating younger girls and vice versa is that one person has so much more experience and emotional maturity, it can make the younger dependent and stall their development, not to mention making them very vulnerable to manipulation and control on the part of the older person. Not all older-younger pairs are like that, I'm not saying that. It's just an issue that pops up more. It has little to do with actual physical age difference unless the younger person is actually physically a child.
And if you think it's gross for Jacob to date Bella cause he turns into a wolf, then I guess he can't date any human in your opinion?
I *do* think Harry is shallow though. It's one of his weaknesses. See, that's what makes a good character-a balance of strengths and weaknesses. Harry is shallow. There are worse things to be-I'd rather be shallow like Harry and Bella than cruel like Voldemort.
Why does Harry like Cho? Cause she's cute. How come Harry only liked Ginny once she'd gotten cute? Textbook shallow.
For those of you who don't think Bella is shallow or selfish, what do you think her weaknesses are?
Kamberli wrote: "I really don't understand why we are even arguing about this! They are totally different story lines and everybody is entitled to their own opinion!"Thank you! I don't think I have anything else to add... I agree with Autumn and Kamberli and I have given my opinion on this topic multiple times.... Kamberli said it best and I stick beside her comment.... thank you Kamberli....
every one who i have talked to so far likes Harry potter better and only a few actually HATE twilight 2
I have made my opinions known. I agree with Lara and Kamberli. For me, Twilight is way better. And I will not be swayed. Go ahead and think Bella is shallow, or Edward is dull/creepy, or Jacob is better. Think what you will. The only reason there are more people on here saying they hate Twilight and love HP instead is because there's no way to talk sense into you. You refuse to see from anyone else's perspective.If you said that every person you've spoken to prefers HP and hates Twilight, you haven't talked with that many people.
Again, I am going to stand by opinions. I can see your points, but I don't agree. Think what you will.
Well it is their own perogative to like what ever book they choose. We are all entilied to our own opinions and we should respect them even if we don't agree with them.
Yes, but it would be nice if people were not so stubborn. But as I said before, they can think what they want. Are there any other discussion groups on anything Twilight? It would refreshing to actually agree with more people than to be constantly attacked for what I like.
Autumn wrote: "Yes, but it would be nice if people were not so stubborn. But as I said before, they can think what they want. Are there any other discussion groups on anything Twilight? It would refreshing to ..."Haha... I would like that too.... Did you like the movie? Cause if not, we could basj the movie together....
Actually I did like the movie, but I can totally agree with what was wrong. I start a discussion topic in my group.
Do it and let me know where it is... I love the books but I had some issues with the movie, which I'm sure all of us do....
Lara wrote: "Do it and let me know where it is... I love the books but I had some issues with the movie, which I'm sure all of us do...."I just posted it on the Twifantics discussion board.
If you said that every person you've spoken to prefers HP and hates Twilight, you haven't talked with that many people. ..."Wow Autumn way to misread a post. She said most people like Harry Potter better but don't hate Twilight.
As for being attacked, no one is attacking you. See that little "v" in the title? That means versus. Different opinions versus each other, each trying to explain their POV and possibly enlighten each other.
But honestly, I am curious. So you don't think Bella is shallow? What are her weaknesses, then? And clumsiness doesn't count, because that's a physical weakness and not a character trait.
Lee wrote: "If you said that every person you've spoken to prefers HP and hates Twilight, you haven't talked with that many people. ..."Wow Autumn way to misread a post. She said most people like Harry Pott..."
I am not stupid, I was merely expressing how hard some people are critising. I never said that Bella was weak. She's very strong. That doesn't make her shallow. She's brave enough to hang out with vampires and werewolves. I do think she was stretching herself by trying to please everyone. But that's just the way she is. It's probably very stressful having two guys in love with you and being under the threat of death at the same time.
So if a person doesn't have a weakness, that makes them shallow? I don't quite get that.
I think we should all step back and breath.... this is supposed to be friendly and respectful.... if you can't be either then maybe you should find a bashing party and leave the lovers out of your narrow mindedness and hating.... Respect is the key.
Autumn wrote: "So if a person doesn't have a weakness, that makes them shallow? I don't quite get that."No. But if Bella isn't a shallow person, then what is her weakness? Everybody-living human and literary character alike have weaknesses. If you claim Bella doesn't have any weaknesses, then you've just labeled her a Mary Sue. Congrats on sticking her with the self-insert characters written by 12-year old fanfiction writers.
Don't get your knickers in a twist Lara-no one is angry here. We're just having a discussion. :D You're kind of bordering on rude, accusing people of being narrow-minded and disrespectful.
And I would like to clarify, I don't think Autumn is stupid. I just think she thinks that a good character is one without weaknesses-and that simply is not true.
Well that is just how I am... always bordering on the rude... but you are right, but sometimes it just has to be said....
Lee wrote: "Autumn wrote: "So if a person doesn't have a weakness, that makes them shallow? I don't quite get that."No. But if Bella isn't a shallow person, then what is her weakness? Everybody-living human ..."
Ok, you want a weakness. Here's one. She always wants to please everyone. Sometimes she will even hurt herself to please someone. Sometimes she doesn't even give her true opinion in fear of it offending someone. She is polite, but I think a little too much. She has trouble with talking about her feelings. Except with Edward, she sticks to the small talk. Which I think shows a lack of confidence in herself.
I don't think a good character has no weaknesses. But I don't dwell on the bad unless the character is supposed to have everything go wrong.
Here are my arguments for why Bella is not shallow.
1. The definition of shallow is someone who only thinks on one dimension, that dimension being themselves.
2. Bella moves to Forks from Phoenix for her mother. She hates Forks.
3. Bella almost gives her life to save Renesmee.
4. Bella insists on helping out Charlie when she's running away from the vampires in Twilight.
5. She escapes from Alice and Jasper to 'save' her mom.
I think that's enough evidence to prove that she's not selfish. Here is a list of weaknesses which round her out.
5. She doesn't always think about the consequences of what she's going to do.
6. She doesn't have a very strong willpower. She's easy to persuade.
7. She doesn't ask for help when she needs it.
Okay, here's a list of strengths which round her out the other direction.
8. She doesn't ask for help when she needs it.
9. She doesn't want to hurt anybody and she's willing to lay down her life for people she's close to.
10. She has a sense of humor adn doesn't take herself too seriously.
But I still think that Harry Potter's deeper, if Harry himself isn't a very fascinating character. But HP is written much more subtly. I wish Harry had a sense of humor; he takes himself very seriously and JKR or other characters, namely Ron, have to provide the humor. This shows that Harry has hubris, a common fault of your epic hero, and I think Ron, who doesn't take anything very seriously, balances things out as Harry's sidekick. My problem with Harry is that he gets upset too easily. I hated him in the fifth book when he's ready to explode at anybody if they say anything slightly wrong. It makes him real but doesn't help me identify with him.
1. The definition of shallow is someone who only thinks on one dimension, that dimension being themselves.
2. Bella moves to Forks from Phoenix for her mother. She hates Forks.
3. Bella almost gives her life to save Renesmee.
4. Bella insists on helping out Charlie when she's running away from the vampires in Twilight.
5. She escapes from Alice and Jasper to 'save' her mom.
I think that's enough evidence to prove that she's not selfish. Here is a list of weaknesses which round her out.
5. She doesn't always think about the consequences of what she's going to do.
6. She doesn't have a very strong willpower. She's easy to persuade.
7. She doesn't ask for help when she needs it.
Okay, here's a list of strengths which round her out the other direction.
8. She doesn't ask for help when she needs it.
9. She doesn't want to hurt anybody and she's willing to lay down her life for people she's close to.
10. She has a sense of humor adn doesn't take herself too seriously.
But I still think that Harry Potter's deeper, if Harry himself isn't a very fascinating character. But HP is written much more subtly. I wish Harry had a sense of humor; he takes himself very seriously and JKR or other characters, namely Ron, have to provide the humor. This shows that Harry has hubris, a common fault of your epic hero, and I think Ron, who doesn't take anything very seriously, balances things out as Harry's sidekick. My problem with Harry is that he gets upset too easily. I hated him in the fifth book when he's ready to explode at anybody if they say anything slightly wrong. It makes him real but doesn't help me identify with him.
look EVERYONE WHO HAS GOOD TASTE and actually THINKS while reading this book TWILIGHT STINKS and should not have been published harry potter on the other hand had good plot the characters were in depth and it wasn't just a little dumb love story that made apsulutly no sense though i wouldn't think it would since dreams don't normally make sense
Clara wrote: "Here are my arguments for why Bella is not shallow.1. The definition of shallow is someone who only thinks on one dimension, that dimension being themselves.
2. Bella moves to Forks from Phoenix..."
Thank you sooooooo much Clara. Excellent reasons for why she's not shallow. I don't totally agree on HP being deeper, but I can identify with everything else you said. These agruements ought to be sufficient.
u people have NO sense wat so ever
Kelsey wrote: "u people have NO sense wat so ever"Look, I don't think it right or ok to question people's sanity like that. If you have a problem with our opinions, don't read these posts and leave us alone. If you want to debate, do it respectfully, and respect that other people won't always agree with you.
look EVERYONE WHO HAS GOOD TASTE and actually THINKS while reading this book TWILIGHT STINKS and should not have been published harry potter on the other hand had good plot the characters were in depth and it wasn't just a little dumb love story that made apsulutly no sense though i wouldn't think Twilight would since dreams don't normally make sense
Kelsey wrote: "look EVERYONE WHO HAS GOOD TASTE and actually THINKS while reading this book TWILIGHT STINKS and should not have been published harry potter on the other hand had good plot the characters were in d..."I have very good taste and think while I read, thank you so very much.
well that is oviusly not true if u like the books TWILIGHT since it had udderly no plot no passion no good fights no adventure it was basically a dream that she should have just kept in her head
You have no right to judge on whether or not I have good taste. We are all different and prefer different things. And it had plenty of passion. I can't help it if you think no one is right in their head except you. And I'm sure several authors have had inspiring dreams that influenced their writing.
Kelsey wrote: "tell that to Stephen King"Tell that to my face
I am just going to pretend like I never had this "conversation." Plus, Stephen King is a male. He wouldn't identify with a romanatic fantasy.
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