Breaking Dawn
discussion
Twilight v. Harry Potter?
I feel that the book includes relationships based on both love and lust. I think Annalisa nicely explained how there can be a combination of love and lust in a relationship, in one of her earlier comments. I know it seems that Bella was always crazy about the way Edward looked, and she was always kissing him, or having some sort of physical contact with him. But I think she still loved him though, I mean, she was ready to give up her life in order to save his (similar to Harry Potter in that sense? Self-sacrifice?).
I guess the whole series is a mixture of lust and love, and it's a very fine borderline that separates the two in the novel. I mean, people can't deny the way Mike and Tyler feel about Bella is nothing but lust. They just want her, even before they even try to get to know her. But when it comes to Edward, he actually loves her, and wants to protect her - a little too much, though. And Bella loves Edward too, it's just that some other desires of hers get in the way, and makes the novel seem to portray lust.
Kamberli wrote: "Lavanya: sorry about the typo, I was in a hurry!!! anyways I do agree with about the whole thing with Edward asking Bella and Jacob to have sex together I think that you have brought out some grea..."
Thanks, and all I have to say is that we are all entitled to have our own opinions, and that is what allows us to discuss various topics, and see the different views of others! :)
Clara, But I love compromises! And when I said sexual tension, I meant the tension between the blood lust and the desire to kiss her, which I can see why you're saying is love not sexual tension. I just think they both play a part. Girls enjoy the book for Edward resistance to biting Bella because he loves her, but I also know plenty who read it as there own brand of romance novels (of which, just to set the record straight, those lengthy descriptions of Edward, I am not a fan). I guess it all goes back to what we define as love. At what point can we pinpoint Edward's intrigue of Bella and Bella's obsession with Edward as love? And what I have to say about the honeymoon scenes is that I laughed when I read them--and not in the way I believe SM intended. I mean really, I'm an imaginative person, but I can't imagine how she could have ended up bruised from head to toe nor how they can go on all night long (and to think of all the young girls reading it). I thought it was a little ridiculous and out of character, but I don't think it was more ridiculous than the request to pimp out his wife. The whole book didn't feel like Bella and Edward. That book was written so SM could introduce Renesmee whether she fit the story or not and SM twisted all the characters and plots to fit when it didn't really go. I was actually shocked to find out that people liked the book because I hated it when I had at one point liked Bella and Edward. I think some people were so happy to see them get their happy ending that how crazy the book got didn't really bother them. It seems like SM just really wanted to give Bella the world and couldn't bare not to. I can understand falling in love with your characters to that extent, though I don't think it's fair to your story to protect them on that level.
If before Breaking Dawn someone had compared Twilight and Harry Potter, I probably would have shrugged even though I prefer HP, but after BD I'm rather adamant about it because the distance between the series gaped at that point. For me the HP got better and better with each release while the opposite was true for Twilight. I really think it should have been one book, two at the most. Somethings are better left to imagination. But like I said in my very first post, kudos to both women for writing such a well-circulated series.
There is sexual tension in both books. Although it is more prevelent in Twilight that doesn't mean it doesn't exists in HP. Without it in either one, both books would loose quite a number of fans.... Just saying.
twilight
Honestly, a lot of the later books seem like Stephenie Meyer is stretching everything out so she could sell 3 more hardcover 600-page books for 26 dollars each. I would have preffered it if at the end of book one, they hadn't sucked out the venom from Bella's veins. Voila, she's a vampire, we pretty much know what's going to happen now. But then you don't have a lot of really cool scenes.
I know nobody will agree with that, but I would have been just as happy that way.
I know nobody will agree with that, but I would have been just as happy that way.
![*jasper[♥]alice*](https://images.gr-assets.com/users/1239577880p1/1535944.jpg)
twilight. period.
Amanda and Kai, you lost me.Clara, ending it after the first book wouldn't have been terrible, but there are some scenes in the other books that are so incredible. So I'm going to have to say it made a good series.
Clara, I completely agree with you. That would have been the best way to end the story and let fanfiction writers go crazy with the rest of the story.And I agree that just writing twilight is not a valid argument. It's not a poll; it's a discussion.
Clara and Annalisa, I am not sure what the best way would have been to end Twilight, but for me the story seemed to be dragged out in Breaking Dawn. All the characters were changed so the story could work out "perfectly." It didn't seem...uh...natural (sorry, I know I could use a better word, but I am at a loss). Did anyone else feel that way about Breaking Dawn in particular? Even New Moon and Eclipse (just a few scenes only) weren't what I thought would happen - based on the characters, and their personalities.
Lavanya,I liked New Moon because it wasn't as cheesy. The story was still moving along. We get to explore the wolfs. I wasn't impressed with Eclipse because it felt like a stall. We already knew about the battle between Edward and Jacob. It didn't need to be dragged out. I did like the Fire & Ice chapter, but that was about it. I wouldn't have cared if it led to a good ending, but it was the beginning of the end; the characters started changing there. I think that's the perfect description of BD. Changed to work out perfectly, not natural. Precisely.
New Moon was OK; I liked teh Romeo and Juliet parallels but other than that it bored me. I felt that Breaking Dawn was the most forced, then Eclipse, then New Moon.
Annalisa, Thank you. I was trying to explain myself, but wasn't sure if I was getting my point across. I actually liked New Moon too, but one or two scenes bothered me. Yes, Eclipse did seem like a stall, and there were a few scenes that kept conveying the same meaning. I was waiting for something new to happen. Clara, I liked the Romeo and Juliet parallels too, and allusions to Wuthering Heights as well. I also agree with your ranking - Breaking Dawn did seem to be the most forced, which is probably why I liked it the least.
The first time i picked up a harry potter book i was 11. i remember just looking at how "big" it was and putting it down. Back then i hated all kinds of literature and anything to do with reading. Second time i did, it was because my teacher at the time was making everyone read a book for independent reading and i decided to challenge myself and grudgingly gave it a try. i was 13 and i was hooked, for a month straight i read all of the harry potter books. every where i went i just had to have one of the books with me. i think this was right before the 5th book came out, so when i got to the end of book 4, i wanted more. i was reading every book i could get my hands on just to fill up the time, and i was introduced to tons of amazing different characters and plots in my wait for more of harry potter. Harry potter introduced me to great literature, and made me the person that i am today. i thank JKR every day for that, for the wonderful feeling of slipping off to a different world where you could do anything imaginable. i think that's what makes a great book, im not even saying that's what happens to everyone, but it happened to me and im grateful. As for twilight.... it's okay... one of my friends introduced me to it way before it was even famous and back then it WAS okay to read. but recently I've gone back and noticed everything my teen mind was overlooking. it was just a phase for me i think. the thing that bothers me about twilight is that you cant sit there and analyse the details like with harry potter, because in harry potter (and HP fans will know this) everything counts, all the details are there for a reason. the only one good character in twilight is Jacob, while in harry potter i even fell in love with the enemies because they were so beautifully crafted.
but, people will always compare twilight to harry potter no matter what, and i don't think i could do anything about it.
HARRY POTTER FTW! =]
I agree that New Moon through Breaking Dawn did drag just a bit, but there were some very important scenes that eventually led to the end. There might have been a way to comprise the final three books into one maybe even two and gotten rid of some "fluff" but I still maintain the fact that it was all necessary and to me, enjoyable (for the most part).
Harry Potter does have so much more to it. (Example of tiny details - the bushes outside the Malfoy's house are yew, which is an 'evil' plant). She created a whole world, complete with details like Chocolate Frog cards and all that. Twilight isn't even trying to compete with that sort of thing.
Jacob is the most boring character ever, though. Edward is amazing, but all the characters in Harry Potter are real and well crafted.
When I think about it, Harry Potter is the best by far. But Twilight isn't trying to accomplish what Harry Potter was. Twilight is a romance, and Harry Potter is the wtory of a hero.
Jacob is the most boring character ever, though. Edward is amazing, but all the characters in Harry Potter are real and well crafted.
When I think about it, Harry Potter is the best by far. But Twilight isn't trying to accomplish what Harry Potter was. Twilight is a romance, and Harry Potter is the wtory of a hero.
in my opinion i actually think that edward just sucks. ugh. i can't even begin to describe the loathing i have for him. he's just so blah to me, specially the way bella describes him. the bella/edward relationship thing just doesnt cut it for me. it just seems that all bella knows about him revolves around the physiall side of things. Jacob in the other hand is funny and honest and simple. Bella loves him for being jacob. i cant really say anything because i wouldnt know if bella would still like edward if he was just human. i do agree that SM was never trying to be the next JKR, i dont think she even thought about it much. it all comes back to the media for blowing this out of proportion. SM should be gratefull for JKR, because Harry potter made many kids start reading.
Clara, I completely agree that Harry Potter is about a hero story whereas Twilight is a romance story and therefore some changes to the jusging criteria should be made flexible. For example.... as a romance.... HP drags and gets nowhere until the last pages of the last book. Also, Twilight as an adventure/hero story.... serious lacking.... I mean both has elements of the other, but it cannot be the main plot without ruining the entire series of either HP or Twilight.
Jacob was a very nice person. Edward is dazzling and old-fashioned and courteous and knightly and not entirely perfect. I wouldn't like him as much if he were perfect. He was supposed to be unreal. He was a vampire.
Thank you for your agreeance with me.
Thank you for your agreeance with me.
If more people grasped the concept that Edward was supposed to be unreal I think they might have liked the books better. The whole unreal factor makes the story line better.
Clara,I disagree that Jacob is a boring character. I personally like Edward more than Jacob, but in New Moon, Jacob was far from boring. He was a funny, honest, and kind boy. I think in the later books, Jacob got a little annoying because he kept standing in the way between Bella and Edward, and SM just dragged out the whole problem. And SM portrays Edward as being "nearly-perfect" which does make him seem too magnificent and powerful which annoys people sometimes. I personally think Edward is amazing (but I do NOT adore him), but if he had been human then I would not have liked his personality one bit.
Lara,
I think you do make a good point that we cannot compare Edward to humans because he is a vampire. But, the only thing we can relate to are other humans, not vampires. So a lot of people are going to compare Edward to real people, rather than unreal vampires.
Ivy,
I do partially agree with your take on Jacob in comparison to Edward. I still like Edward Cullen, and don't find him boring.
Melissa,
I liked your view on the Bella/Edward relationship. I felt that too much of the time Bella was concentrating on the physical aspect of their relationship, and that bothers me. But for me, that makes me annoyed with Bella rather than Edward.
The un-realness of Edward made the story what it is.... plus it gives hope that those of us that are far below average looking that maybe we can have what in our minds is an unreal guy. I don't know... maybe that is just me. Plus the unreal factor makes him more interesting to imagine....................
HARRY POTTER IF YOU WILL!!
Okay, so the whole idea of vampires is that they are made a more concentrated and beautiful version of their human selves. This holds true for their pesonalities, too!
And, hey, this is a romance, and I'd rather daydream and gush over Edward than a more realistic guy. NOT that I have anything against realistic guys. But guys have created Helen of Troy and Guinevere and all these other 'perfect' women. So we get Edward, the 'perfect' guy. I think we deserve at least one.
And, hey, this is a romance, and I'd rather daydream and gush over Edward than a more realistic guy. NOT that I have anything against realistic guys. But guys have created Helen of Troy and Guinevere and all these other 'perfect' women. So we get Edward, the 'perfect' guy. I think we deserve at least one.
Clara, I love you for saying that. That is the honest truth and purpose behind Twilight. Besides.... what else are we supposed to do with our time if not daydream about our "perfect man" that resembles Edward.....
Clara and Lara, I have to agree with you, and I think that's the reason why people love Twilight. It's nice to have someone to daydream about who is more beautiful, more classy, more talented, and more loving (in the romantic sense) than any other human character.
It's odd to think, but the ancient stories are really essentially the same as the ones that are written now. The Odyssey probably had the same effect on the ancient Greeks as Twilight or Harry Potter has on us...sorry, struck by that really cool thought...yeah.
I love the Harry Potter Series don't get me wrong but I am totally & obssessively into the whole Twilight Saga it ROCKS!
Can anyone explain to me why the only adjective Meyer knows is 'chagrin' and the only way Edward can laugh is by 'chuckling'? Repetitive tosh.
Ivy and Alanna, Hahaha, I feel the same way as you. SM kept repeating the same the words over and over again. At least she was consistent with her descriptions of the characters, LOL. But seriously though, didn't the editor catch that? I mean, it could have been easily fixed. Just substitute different words here and there, and the series could have been a little bit better.
Annalisa wrote: "This is by the far the thing that aggravates me the most. JK Rowling is untouchable genius. From the first chapter she had the whole story laid out and even knows the background stories for minor..."
Absolutely! I could not have said it better myself!
i am going to quote my sister
**spoiler alert** Ok, I'm going to start right off saying that if you don't like to see the Twilight series criticized DON'T read my review.
I absolutely hated this book. Twilight was ok, New Moon and Eclipse were bad but, Breaking Dawn was down right horrible. For one Bella gets pregnant??? What ever happened to the vampires can't have kids thing?? Also the name?? Renesmee?? Who names their kid something like that?? Then there is the whole thing with Jacob imprinting on Renesmee. EWWWWW!!!!!!!! This book had NO plot and the characters got even more shallow. These books were huge disappointments for me. SM completely ruined all the myths about vampires within 1 page!!! I mean, vampires die in the sun they don't "sparkle". She must have used the word and phrase "sparkle" and "voice like velvet" over a hundred times per book!
And then there are the characters. Bella is SO whiny, I mean she has the guy of her dreams and everyone loves her but still she whines constantly. Edward is your typical perfect guy but, he is just very shallow and 2 dimensional.
These books are teaching kids and teens that it is ok to get married and pregnant at 18. Also that it is ok just to wait around for your perfect guy. I mean when Edward left her, Bella tried to kill herself. They are teaching that us girls can't live without a guy.
Over all this is probably the worst book I have ever read. A five year old could probably write better than SM. If you are looking for some GOOD vampire books you should read Evernight and its sequel Stargazer or watch the television show "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". Or other non vampire books like "Harry Potter" and anything by Tamora Pierce.
**spoiler alert** Ok, I'm going to start right off saying that if you don't like to see the Twilight series criticized DON'T read my review.
I absolutely hated this book. Twilight was ok, New Moon and Eclipse were bad but, Breaking Dawn was down right horrible. For one Bella gets pregnant??? What ever happened to the vampires can't have kids thing?? Also the name?? Renesmee?? Who names their kid something like that?? Then there is the whole thing with Jacob imprinting on Renesmee. EWWWWW!!!!!!!! This book had NO plot and the characters got even more shallow. These books were huge disappointments for me. SM completely ruined all the myths about vampires within 1 page!!! I mean, vampires die in the sun they don't "sparkle". She must have used the word and phrase "sparkle" and "voice like velvet" over a hundred times per book!
And then there are the characters. Bella is SO whiny, I mean she has the guy of her dreams and everyone loves her but still she whines constantly. Edward is your typical perfect guy but, he is just very shallow and 2 dimensional.
These books are teaching kids and teens that it is ok to get married and pregnant at 18. Also that it is ok just to wait around for your perfect guy. I mean when Edward left her, Bella tried to kill herself. They are teaching that us girls can't live without a guy.
Over all this is probably the worst book I have ever read. A five year old could probably write better than SM. If you are looking for some GOOD vampire books you should read Evernight and its sequel Stargazer or watch the television show "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". Or other non vampire books like "Harry Potter" and anything by Tamora Pierce.
my point is that harry potter is one of the best wrighten series and twilight series is down right bad
ya the book just has no really good point to it
I agree with Kelsey!!!!!!!
Well that makes sense on all fronts.... I never really noticed the reptiveness of the words SM used.... maybe becuase I have the same problem... I choose to love Edward for the soul purpose of entertainment... mostly daydreaming... what I feel is missing I fill in from my imagination.... maybe that is my problem..... Oh by the way.... has anyone noticed that in the movie no one really moves their lips/teeth.... how annoying is that? (Sorry, I just watched it again and I realized how much better the book is....)
Sorry... disreagard that last comment from me... It got posted in the wrong place... which might explain why it makes no sense.... Sorry....
Well that makes sense on all fronts.... I never really noticed the reptiveness of the words SM used.... maybe becuase I have the same problem... I choose to love Edward for the soul purpose of entertainment... mostly daydreaming... what I feel is missing I fill in from my imagination.... maybe that is my problem..... Oh by the way.... has anyone noticed that in the movie no one really moves their lips/teeth.... how annoying is that? (Sorry, I just watched it again and I realized how much better the book is....)
well in the movie i would hope that none of there teeth move
does anyone else think that Robert Patterson looks super creepy even in real life
does anyone else think that Robert Patterson looks super creepy even in real life
Yup.... all I can do in the movie is laugh.....
JKR began with a plan for the series, sort of, but SM began with Twilight and had to go off from there, so it lacked foundation. Yeah, SM wasn't very creative in her adjective/adverb use. I like the way in HP how you can tell who each character is by their ' motif' shall we say. Lupin is a hoarse voice, while Bellatrix shrieks. But Rowling used that as a tool, while in Twilight, SM couldn't think of any better words.
Wow, sorry, I didn't see there was a page six. I didn't notice any excessive tooth movement in the movie other than that nothing was surprising. (Those teeth in Harry Potter...I'll tell you!) Sorry, I'm very amusable right now. I hate the posters for the movie. Edward glares at everybody fiercely...ugh. Still, I'm going to get the movie, so...yeah. Sorry for my pointless comment!
Clara wrote: "Wow, sorry, I didn't see there was a page six. I didn't notice any excessive tooth movement in the movie other than that nothing was surprising. (Those teeth in Harry Potter...I'll tell you!) Sorry..."Haha, I'm going to get the movie too. Personally, I like both Twilght the book, and the movie, but I think Harry Potter (book) is better, but the movie not so much.
you can't compare twilight to harry potter. it just isnt possible. Anyway---> Harry Potter PWNS Twilight. No doubt about it. Harry Potter all the wayyy!!
Spencer wrote: "you can't compare twilight to harry potter. it just isnt possible. Anyway---> Harry Potter PWNS Twilight. No doubt about it. Harry Potter all the wayyy!!"Ah-greed!!!!
I don't like the HP movies either. They're too grim and don't have what I really like about HP in the first place.
You know, I think characters/characterization is actually one of Rowling's weaker points in the series. That may just be a result of being in 3rd person P.O.V, but I think part of the reason why people like them so much is she just gives them the barest sketch of a personality and then let's people garner the rest from their actions, and form their own ideas of them. Showing, not telling. This changed in the last book and is why I consider Deathly Hollows the worst book in the series, when it should be the best.The thing is, Meyer is nowhere near as skilled or talented as Rowling. Does that mean that she's horrible, or her books are trash? No. She just doesn't measure up yet. I just hope her success doesn't keep her from recognizing her flaws and correcting them. She has a lot of repetitive descriptions and odd word usage.
I think you're super wrong Kelsey. That's just ridiculous saying that it has no redeeming qualities. Twilight is a romance, not a fantasy adventure. If you don't like romances, why would you like Twilight?
Honestly comparing a romance to a fantasy adventure is kind of stupid in the first place, but eh, what can you do?
While I'm not fond of either Edward or Bella, I like a lot of the minor characters like Alice, etc.
And as for the "myths about vampires" why shouldn't they be creatively interpreted, deconstructed, inverted, and anything else a person can do with them? The myths themselves come from many different cultures and contradict themselves.
ETA: and I'd like to add, a lot of Bella's behavior is disturbing and probably harmful for girls to be reading about, but Meyer's a Christian/Mormon, and is influenced by her beliefs. While early pregnancy/marriage may seem horrific or anathema to myself and many others, to others it's just a normal thing. -_-
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I know honestly...why couldn't they have waited? I was slightly disgusted by that scene too, although there is nothing wrong with having sex after marriage. What bothered me was that Bella wanted to have sex instantly; it seemed to me like she married Edward at such a young age for that one reason.
But I guess if that hadn't happened, then the novel would have dragged out the whole plot, because Renesmee was necessary for the story.
I wonder what Annalisa has to say about that, she has some very interesting and thought-provoking comments. :)