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Archive 08-19 GR Discussions
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The Far Pavilions - next chunky /Reading Sched
I ordered a used copy online yesterday so I might be a little late to start, but I'm in. :)I am new to this website and this group and have already read 2 other books with you that I might have never read - and I enjoyed them both, so thanks!
I am so glad you joined and that you are enjoying it.
Did you know that the author was 70 years old when she wrote this book?At the end of Book One, Ash is returning to India in a British capacity. Is his heart British or Indian? I suspect that there will be a lot of conflict for Ash as well as Belinda. Ideas?
I think it's incredible that the author wrote the book at such an advanced age. It was quite an undertaking.I think Ash's heart is Indian. He's adopted only a few traits from his English education...a certain understanding of how "his people" view the world. It seems like the biggest part of his conflict comes from a need to belong in both his parents' world (where most people think he should be comfortable) and his foster mother's world (where he is most at home). Left to his own devices, he could have lived out a perfectly average and happy Indian life.
Belinda at the end of book one left me feeling apprehensive. Can't say much more than that as I've got a bit ahead of myself...
Something else I noted: With a different attitude, Janoo-bai could easily have been a herione in this book... Her malice towards the Rajah's other children sets her as a nemesis, but her ascent from a mere dancing girl to Rani could have been admirable. I also found it ironic that she would seek "better" marriages for her sons than Lalji's considering her own background -- that she, who came from practically nothing, would hold a girl's parentage as a defining portion of her worth.
Also: Some of the English characters express disapproval of the Indian caste system (which doesn't allow members of opposing castes to so much as eat with one another), but I find that a little hypocritical. In their own society, where the English are not held at the bottom rung becasue of their skin color, a caste system is perfectly acceptable. (example -- Think of Belinda's mother's opinions of the men on the boat who vie for her daughter's affection. Only some of them are considered prospects, because most aren't rich enough, or of noble parentage. And a half-Indian man's background would be considered scandalous and unacceptable.)
It took me a few chapters to get into the flow of the writing... Some of the heavy, obvious foreshadowing and bulky descriptions of the land threw me off at first. Now that I'm deeper into the story, though, I'm completely hooked. Glad I joined in here! I would never have picked this up otherwise.
I was left, at the end of Book One, feeling Belinda isn't going to be around much longer. She felt resentful almost as soon as she put her foot onto Indian soil.Ash, on the other hand, felt a lot of conflict when he got there. I think the major conflict being who he really is.
I am hooked too!
I think Ash just fell a little too far for Belinda based on ONE comment she made about the treatment of Indians by the English...taking her at face value, when he thought he'd noticed something deeper.
I too am pretty apprehensive of Belinda. I have read a bit ahead myself so it is tough to draw the line, but everything I have read makes me want to yell "run away!". I hope I'm wrong and that there is a little more complexity to her character going forward. I agree that his snap positive judgement could have been more than a little premature. I think his heart is Indian as well but anticipate that it could likely be put to the test...and often. Carrie, thank you for your comments regarding the place of women and the ironies inherent in the English view of the caste system. I found them very insightful! Social mobility really wasn't all that possible in England until the industrial revolution...and even then it was limited to the few who were able to "rise above their station" through their own merit...the odds certainly were against them since those well off had a clear advantage...
I am really looking forward to seeing how this unfolds...I feel like there has been so much going on already and we have barely put a dent in it!
Stacy: I think the thing that sticks out to me most in regard to the caste systems is how the two very different cultures perceive it. The low-born English are somewhat spiteful, feeling that they have been cheated; but the low-born Indian accepts it as destiny, and resolves to do his best with what he's given and hope for better luck in the next life. (Both being generalizations, of course.) Obviously, religion has a lot to do with their reaction, but maybe also the attitude of their culture in general. The English expect some amount of fairness out of life, certain rights for even the common man, but the Indians do not. They say "what is written is written," and shrug their misfortunes off as "fate." Therefore, when the English see a caste system from the outside perspective, they are appalled by the unfairness of it. Yet the Indians, who must live with it's strict policies, are cofmortable and content in their way of life. (Again, a serious generalization.)I wonder how much of this is the author's social criticism/reflection... I would guess that a lot of it is. Especially the wisdom of Ash's uncle Akbar and his father -- saying that both the English and the Indians would forget the good in one another, and that the most important thing to do is act justly.
I feel the same way about getting used to the writing. It took 50-60 pages for me to get in a groove... now I'm hooked! I think Ash is wholeheartedly Indian. What a story so far!Did everyone's Book Two start with chapter 8?
I think that the book is beautifully written and that all the characters and descriptive prose really put one right in the middle of the social/ethnic struggles.In England,at the time of the novel, they were in the Victorian age. This was a time where there was an extreme amount of stress put upon the classes. One certainly should not marry out of their class and it was kind of inbred in a way how people knew and should remain in their class. It was where they belonged.The books of that time reflected class structure so well (think Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, North and South etc.) So, it was truly a caste type system. India gave a name to it while England gave it a rank.
If you have read Vanity Fair. I hope that Belinda isn't going to be a "Becky".
Collin: Yep, my book two started at Chapter 8.
I was wondering also how do you know you have book 1 or 2 or both.
Rebecca: If you have the full edition, it will end with chapter 68.
Book Two started at Chapter 8 for me too. I believe Ash’s heart is in India with the only family he had ever known, Sita. He spent, at least, the first ten to twelve years of his life in India, so at that point I would think your life, especially during that era, is already defined. It is almost as if he left India to attend school.
I also could not help reading ahead...I had high hopes for Ash and Belinda, but they quickly changed.
My electronic edition did not have a Book 1 or Book 2 label. I read through chapter 10 because I kept waiting for the designation. I may need to ask someone to post the chapter number for the next reading segment.Yes, I agree with the rest of the posts, Ash is Indian. Not only was his formative years spent in India believing he was Indian, but his experiences in England were very unpleasant, devoid of friends or much affection.
The author does appear to have an agenda. I appreciated Ash's observations about English customs. She made it clear that exotic and inappropriate is simply a matter of perspective. She wants you to parallel the class system of England with the cast system of India,for example. Ash's reaction to British foo, the use of a tooth brush and English housing were told in such a way that the Western reader could not but help realizing that familiar is only that, familiar, and not necessarily normal. It was great to have the relationship between Ash's father and uncle at the outset of the novel. You are told right away that tension is not inevitable. The two men lived, dressed, believed differently, but could respect one another's differences. Belinda appears to love India for the priveleges she experienced there as the spoiled child of British colonizers. England meant discipline and obedience while India meant freedom and indulgence. It does not appear that Belinda had the native's love of India. And, that is what Ash has since he spent most of his life far from pampered. I wonder to what extent speaking the language enabled understanding. I have read that language shapes thinking. Is Ash and his father so open to Indian ways of perceiving reality because they speak the native tongues?
I also wonder how accurately the author portrays Indian life in mid-19th century. I read so many books where liberties are taken. My brother won't watch dramas set in hospitals because he finds the inaccuracies so irritating. But, as one outside the medical world, I am minimally aware of the problems. Likewise, I can't watch or read most tales set in a Catholic monastery or parish because they take such liberties with the culture. I wish I knew enough to recognize what is literary licence and what is really credible.
@Irene. Where did you get an electronic edition? For use on an e-reader? I looked before buying the physical book and couldn't find an electronic version. Thx.
Laura I know it is available on kindle, so there are e-versions.I believed the author lived in India for many years and that is where she drew upon her experiences.
I am still wondering about the conflict that Ash has within. His "mother" raised him, but he must have some feelings to the father (English) that died and conflicted in his allegiances. I think this is going to be ongoing throughout the book.
Thanks Meg. When I looked on Amazon, the e-book wasn't available to people in the U.S.-- did I read wrong?
Laura, I down loaded my electronic copy through Book Share. It is only available to those whith print disabilities. I rea it on the computer with a screne reader. So, what chapter are we reading through this week?
Read up through Chapter 12 for next week which will be the end of Book 2 in my version.Laura -- I am sorry it is not available on the Kindle. I read it wrong.
The author give us great detail on Indian customs. I think Ash is Indian but also a part of him I think desires to know his fathers family too. I see recurrent themes of illusion and omniscients. I think Akbar khan is dead but not forgeotten for Ash. The voice of Akbar Khan and unfairness is repeated several times hmm must be important to the story. I think Ash is filling a void for love with Belinda my prediction but I don't think it will last or be good for him except maybe a learning experience. Will see
@Irene. Thanks for responding.@Meg. No worries. Truly-- I thought it was me that had read it wrong. I do have the physical book so I am good. Maybe Kindle or Nook will have it available sometime in the near future.
Last night I finished my first FirstReads win, so now I am back reading Far Pavillions and want to catch up. I am definitely hooked too! Let's see, I am a little further where Lajli (sp?) killed Ash's pet mongoose; how horrible. I need to look up what a mongoose looks like; my guess is they are similar to a ferret? :-)
I was really sad reading about the mongoose too. I am glad you are back with us.
I'm pretty sure the mongoose incident is the thing in the book that made me recoil most, and considering some harsh events to come, that's really saying something... I guess it's just harder to excuse cruelty to such a helpless pet. And harder to see the cruelty coming from another child.
The mongoose tale had only a slight impact on me. I was far more upset by the branding story, especially when it was pointed out that he got off easily. I was also bothered by Juli's semi-starvation and the mondain mention of Ash receiving severe beatings. But, when we get to England, I don't find the British boys any less cruel. Five boys gang up on Ash and he gets in trouble for fighting unfair? This appears to be a dog-eat-dog world that Ash moves through, both Hindi, Muslim and Brittish. I got interrupted in the middle of chapter 12 last night, so I am caught up and ready for our next week's discussion.
It was hard for me to remember that Ash is so young. He seems a lot older than his years.
Irene: I kind of lump the branding in with the death of the mongoose, as one event prompted the other.Sandra: It was for me too. I kept stopping and thinking, "Wait a minute...how old is this kid again?" The things he accomplished amazed me.
Yes, I agree that Ash seemed older than he is. Juli did also. I know that the author continually compares Indian children with Brittish children, but, I can't imagine they can have the neurological development needed for some of the long range, consequent recognition thinking that both children display.
I think Ash did seem older because of all of his experiences at such a young age. He never had time to be a carefree child.There were so many sad scenes and circumstance in Book One.
I thought Ash and Juli seemed older too, but I didn't find their actions at such a young age to be unbelievable. It was the time period. For instance, Queen Victoria was only 18-19 when she began her reign.
Book 1 was a roller coaster for Ash. I hope he finds some constant happiness to come!
I think it is going to be a roller coaster ride for him throughout his life.
I'm so curious about Janoo-bai and Lalji, what happened after Ash left? I'm also hoping that Kairi makes a comeback!Overall, I'm really liking the book, have always enjoyed reading novels about India (Rohintin Mistry is a favorite), the historical references are very interesting and enlightening to me.
So far, I think we are all happy with the reading of this book. That is great. I am also a historical fiction reader so this makes me really happy!
I can't help myself; I'm about twenty pages from the end of this and can't wait to discuss the next sections! Still loving it. :)
So in the beginning of Book Two:" The past is the past, and it is best that it should be forgotten. The Hindu boy from Gulkote(ASH) is dead and in his place is a Sahib--an officer-Sahib of the Guides. You cannot alter that; or try to be two people in one skin.
"I am that already," said Ash wryly. "Your brother helped to make me so when he told me that it would be best for me to go to Belait to the car of my father's people, and to learn to become a Sahib. Well, I have learned. yet I am still Ashok, and I cannot alter that either, for having been a child of this land for eleven years I am tied to it by something as strong as the tie of blood, and shall always be two people in one skin--which is not a comfortable thing to be."
What is your opinion of this? How do you think this philosophy will play throughout Ash's life? Will he constantly have a struggle of his identity and who he believes he is?
Recalling that section of the book, I think it ended with a hint. Didn't it indicate a third option, the birth of something new, neither Brittish nor Indian, but a new identity in which all his experiences were meldd? Watching this author to this point, I am suspecting that Ash will integrate all of his elements of childhood (and beyond) into something integrated. And, I think it is what we all do as we mature, at least the healthy among us. Maturation is moving through the dissenence, sorting out what we want to hold onto and what to discard, weaving the values, memories, training, etc. into a whole tapestry of stunning beauty, a life.
Well, in reading about poor George, I think his situation links all of this. George was the lowest form of Indian society. And, when exposed, there was nothing left for him (in his opinion) Ash's role in his demise left Ash guilt ridden. Belinda turned into a shrew and deserves what she gets (and I hope it is wicked). the end of Book Two left me with many questions and predictions. However, I think a lot of the situations that unfolded will lead to Ash's growth.
Just finished this section. Lots packed into those 75 pages. It mentions Ash being gone for 2 years, I wonder if that is the story we will read this week. Will Belinda end up marrying the older man... is that the last we will know of her? Did George's death send Ash searching for the others? So many questions. I was a little sad that his relationship with Zarin had changed, I wonder how that will develop?
Ash will always struggle to find the balance between "justice and fairness" as a Sahib and as a former member of Indian society. Both cultures seem to have very different interpretations of "justice and fairness", don't you think?
George's story is so very devastating, interesting that Ash was also a foster child isn't it? Ash's story could have easily been George's story, were it not for Sita having saved all of his money and documentation. I really admire Sita for keeping his future safe for him all of those years.
I am so far behind, but I will be catching up during spring break. It's getting good.
River, I think you hit the nail on the head.
Sandra wrote: "I am so far behind, but I will be catching up during spring break. It's getting good."No worries, Sandra. I am behind too with toggling between two books and life in general. Very good book though-- I always look forward to reading it.
Going back several posts, several times in Book One, I found myself thumbing back to re-check Ash's age. So much experience for a young boy and even Kairi too. They appear very wise, like learning to talk to one another without actually addressing each other directly. Impressive.
Meg wrote: "River, I think you hit the nail on the head."I agree, it speaks volumes for Sita's character!
I agree wholeheartedly about Sita... I loved that the book pointed out what a difficult time she had keeping Ash's secret heritage. It must have been beyond painful to admit that she wasn't his "real" mother in the end. The fact that she did so anyway marks her as someone truly honorable.
I loved Sita too. She saved their lives so many times.
The HBO Miniseries
In 1983 Peter Duffell directed a Goldcrest-produced epic three-part mini series based on the novel starring Ben Cross as Ashton, Amy Irving as Anjuli, Omar Sharif as Koda Dad and Christopher Lee as Kaka-ji Rao. The mini series ran 316 minutes, a theatrical edit of which ran 140 minutes (Titled "Blade Of Steel"), cutting out half the story. Although conventional in storytelling and photography, the mini series has ample production value and is faithful to the book, cutting short only the youth of Ashton before his return to India. The epic score by Carl Davis has become a collector's item.
The HBO Miniseries on DVD
More info: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086711/