~Opinions~ discussion
Preach Religion
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Atheism
well, although im atheist, i did used to be christian, so I do understand where they are coming from and they do have some evidence. But even God existed- the Christian pne that is- i wouldn't be christian because i think a lot of the things in the bible are absolute *bleeep*. homophobia; men should be higher than women; no sex before marriage; the exclusive ideas of heaven to name a few
Yeah, because Christianity is spoilt anyway.
hmm bible says men should be higher than woman?
fariha- yerp. it implies that often. like women should remain silent in church, for one.
oh thankgod am muslim than!
Oh, that's right. You believe it's taking away a woman's right to give her the same right as men. Thank everything that is good and true that I live in a nordic country, where everybody have exactly the same rights.
Fariha and Amina, women don't actually stay silent in church y'know -.- it just implies that in the bible.and don't muslim women have to cover up etc? im not trying to insult you and your faith, but if i had to cover up like that i wouldn't find it exactly fair :)
Implies in bible.. The book you follow.. So even if the Christian woman dont stay silent in church that means you are going against your bookAnd as for covering up, Islam has good reason for it, it's does not degrade woman but uplift her, and covering yourself and not being able to speak in churc aren't exactly the same thing..
Yet, Amina has told me outright that giving women the same rights as men is taking away their rights.
i don't follow the bible, amina :/ they may not be the same thing, but they both seem pretty unfair.
and howw does that make any sense, emma??
It doesn't. I'm not Muslim. You should ask Amina or Fariha, who're both Muslim, and therefore both believe that women shouldn't have the same rights as men, because, apparently, God didn't intend us to have the same rights.
oh right -.- sorry haha :Pok, so Amina, Fariha- what do you mean by that?
what we mean by that is in certain areas man has more advantage and in certain area woman has more advantagefor example in a univerisity paper 2 students get 99 out of 100
there are 10 questions and 1 question equals to 10 marks
now for the first question student A got 9 out 10
and student B got 10 out of 10
for the second question student A got 10 out of 10
and student B got 9 out of 10
the rest of their outcome is equal
yet student A has more advantage in question no 2 and student B has more advantage in question 1.
in terms of overall marks they are both equal.. same is the case with islam, woman and man are both considered equal yet both of them has certain advantage over the other...
Laura wrote: "i don't follow the bible, amina :/ they may not be the same thing, but they both seem pretty unfair.
and howw does that make any sense, emma??"
oh sorry! my mistake i assumed by your answer that you must follow the bible..
and its not realy unfair.. well you would think its unfair but we know the reasone for it so its not realy unfair to us...
plus i always think that one should start with basic teaching of the religion like pray 5 times a day, fast in the month of ramadan etc etc aka the five pillars of islam and than get down with covering up yourself...
The way we're build, the way our brains work, make the so-called differences. But just because the general dude might be more natural at maths and gymnastics, and the general girl might be more natural at languages and history-classes, doesn't mean that they should each be put in a certain box from their birth. And that is what happens when men and women don't have the same rights. They don't have the same opportunities, and that is not fair. Personally, I do intend to pursue the more "girlie" ways - language and history to be exact. But, I know plenty of boys who intend to do the same, just as I know girls who intend to have a mathematical carrier. People should be judged by their actions, not their gender.
this is nothing to do with oppurtunities.. both men and women in islam get the same amount of oppurtunities!its not like men are allowed to go to university and women arent, we both get the same oppurtunities...
our differnce isnt exactly the same as not having same oppurtunities, or saying that boys are naturally good at maths..
yeah, the genders are different, and males are better at some things and vice versa. but that doesn't change what rights we have- for example, men get paid more than women overall, even though women do better in education.and, Emma, when you're talking about boys doing better in physics and pe and girls doing better in english etc, the term used is 'gendered subjects'. it's just thats what im learning about in sociology, so if you want t know the correct sociological term, here you have it :D
Then please Fariha, explain why the differences are made out at all? If there is no differences in your opportunities or your duties, why would your book make it specific that there are any differences?
amina can explain those differences...but heres the link from which i quoted the example..
http://www.answering-christianity.com...
Laura wrote: "Fariha and Amina, women don't actually stay silent in church y'know -.- it just implies that in the bible.and don't muslim women have to cover up etc? im not trying to insult you and your faith, ..."
Well, we find it fair with our point of view.
Men and women are both equal in God's eyes; no-one is favoured more than another except his piety. When I say women of today don't have any rights (contradicting the misconception that they now have more rights) I mean that by displaying your body, making yourself available for men... that is not having rights. The right of a women is to be protected (that sure as hell doesn't mean we're weak. Some maynot like it this way, but what is, will be). By covering ourselves we are showing that to the men; that we aren't here to sell them our bodies. A woman in a burqa seems reserved, it displays modesty; whereas a woman is a bathing suit (to me and most people) will be like saying 'Hey, you dude there. Come rape me. It's why I took most of my clothes off'.
men do have control over their actions, y'know. its not like, the minute you show some skin, they become animal-like and want to rape you -.-
I know, duh. But some are. And you don't just show yourself for a minute. It's a continuous show.
well, if this is the case, why don't men cover up to? cos they might be raped :P this is why i think its unfair to women and makes them seem weak.
That's very rare lol. And the beauty of women is nothing compared to men's.
well, maybe... but can you see where im coming from when i think its not exactly fair? i dont mind that you do that, its your faith- i have no problem with it. i just wondered how you could say christianity was unfair and in islam, both sexes are completely equal- it just doesnt seem quite equal to me. but then, nothings equal, so whatever :)
That's the point - yu don't want to ever wear a burqa - you'll see it as unfair, because it's something you'd never do. Those who have love for Islam and undertsand it properly see why we cover ourselves. Not so we're uncomfortable or anything (and it's not, ask me), but so our beauty isn't displayed for everyone - something that is ours to share with only our family.
When I say women of today don't have any rights (contradicting the misconception that they now have more rights) I mean that by displaying your body, making yourself available for men... that is not having rights.That has nothing to do with rights Amina. That has only to do with choices. If I choose to cover up compltely, that is my right. If I choose to walk around naked, that is my right. Rights is not aboout what the individual person chooses, it's about what the laws allow them to choose.
The right of a women is to be protected (that sure as hell doesn't mean we're weak. Some maynot like it this way, but what is, will be).
But you see, I don't need that "right". I, for one, am perfectly capable of protecting myself. You and other Muslim women might not be, I can't say. But why would it be a right for someone who doesn't need it?
By covering ourselves we are showing that to the men; that we aren't here to sell them our bodies.
So you seriously think that everyone who doesn't cover every inch of their body like you do, are there only to sell their bodies to men? That I, just to take an example, when I go to the beach in my bathing suit, when I walk around the hallways in jeans and a top, might as well write "I AM CHEAP. HAVE SEX WITH ME" in big letters on my forehead?
A woman in a burqa seems reserved, it displays modesty; whereas a woman is a bathing suit (to me and most people) will be like saying 'Hey, you dude there. Come rape me. It's why I took most of my clothes off'.
So you do think it's peoples own fault if they wear a bathing suit and are raped? How nice. And when you say "most people" I'll just assume that you really mean "seriously religious people".
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also, i think theres something about a woman not being able to divorce her husband, and not having any property, as in if her husband divorces her, she is really left with nothing.
once again, i dont know if this is more arab culture then Muslim culture
Siareen wrote: "um, i dont know if im getting mixed up with the general desert- arab culture and islam, but i know at least in a lot of arabic countries, women really dont have any rights whatsoever. there are ple..."Yeah, those are the extremists... in real, Islam isn't like that.
something i noticed when i went to egypt, was that you couldn't find any women working there- it was practically all men.
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im trying to decide if it a good thing or not :P
hey, Lindsay, are you planning to post the other two posts anytime soon?
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its funny that even though the lists keep growing, we all still find time to be on Goodreads a lot
Yeah, those are the extremists... in real, Islam isn't like that. If I may: People have so many different interceptions of religions, be that Islam or Christianity - how do you know that yours is the truth, that God intended exactly what you believe?
Emma (Audere est facere) wrote: "Yeah, those are the extremists... in real, Islam isn't like that. If I may: People have so many different interceptions of religions, be that Islam or Christianity - how do you know that yours is..."
Because it doesn't say anywhere in the Quran that you should judge without knowledge; harming yourself (let alone others) is a major sin; there is some alotted amout of share if the husband divorces his wife; and a wife can take a divorce. It's all in the Quran.
o.O I wasn't even going to talk to you. Sorry, just imagine I didn't say it.
Because it doesn't say anywhere in the Quran that you should judge without knowledge; harming yourself (let alone others) is a major sin; there is some alotted amout of share if the husband divorces his wife; and a wife can take a divorce. It's all in the Quran. Yet, there is a whole sect of Muslims who think differently. I know that you think they've gotten it wrong, but they probs. think the same about you. People always have different views on holy books, thus creating sects and the like. And they all think they're right. So I ask; how can you be so sure that your view is the right one?
I wasn't even going to talk to you. Sorry, just imagine I didn't say it.
I already told you that you've got to deal with people telling you their opinions, in a group that says "OPINIONS" i big, fat letters. Also, you can try to ignore me all you like. Trust me, I've had lots worse than someone ignoring me for posting my honest opinion on a subject. Oh, and for the record: I'm pretty hard to ignore. I have a habit of being extra annoying with people who try. But go right ahead. It's been quite amusing thus far.
Because, again, I am using the Quran... the verses that have been written clearly. The other sects use the unclear verses to make other meanings up... and therefore divide into sects.All Qurans ar the same... so that isn't the reason if you're thinking that.
I know... I am a pathetic failure. I can't help arguing back even when I don't want to.
Because, again, I am using the Quran... the verses that have been written clearly. The other sects use the unclear verses to make other meanings up... and therefore divide into sects.And yet they think they're right, too. And you did exactly what I expected you too, just so we're clear. Religious people, such as yourself, always think that their particular branch of religion is the true one, and their perception of it is right - making everybody else wrong. You will claim that you don't understand God, yet you like to think that your way of viewing "his word" is the right one, the one he intended you to have.
I know... I am a pathetic failure. I can't help arguing back even when I don't want to.
People rarely can. Less so when they're trying to ignore me. I get quite annoying when they try. And I have yet to see someone succeeding in ignoring me for good.
I don't think the'ye wrong... just a little misguided. But for terrorists... this is clearly stated in many places in the Quran that we aren't allowed to hurt ourselves or anyone else. Suicide is forbidden. It is clear.I might be doing something wrong too; I'm sure I sin a lot... I'm no angel. I'm probably as bad as them in some ways. I never said they're completely wrong. But extremism is seen as wrong in every relegion.
I could, but I see no point. There's no point in ignoring; but make me laugh... that's something you won't be able to do.
I'm probably as bad as them in some ways. I never said they're completely wrong.Yeah, yeah, everybody "sin". But this isn't about sinning. It's about how a lot of people have completely different views on the same religion, and they all think they're right.
I could, but I see no point.
Uh-huh. Heard that before. Never works out.
There's no point in ignoring; but make me laugh... that's something you won't be able to do.
Well, what a good thing Goodreads is only a small part of my life then. Can we move on from this then? It's getting quite old. I told my honest opinion, you didn't like it, now you don't like me, blahblahblah. No biggie. Do proceed with your tantrum or whatever it is that you're doing.
Sorry Lindsay. Will do. So Atheism: Cool with me.
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though maybe this isnt a good topic to do it on...
but btw, although i consider myself atheist, i do think some of the things you said were a little harsh towards non-atheists. are they really 'idiots' for having a view on something, just because it contrasts with your thoughts?