Selected Poems of T.S. Eliot - Ariel Poems

[Ally]

Please use this thread to discuss the following poems:

Journey of the Magi (1927)
A Song for Simeon (1928)
Animula (1929)
Marina (1930)

which appear in the Ariel Poems section of

Selected Poems of T.S. Eliot by T.S. Eliot

[Tressa]

"Journey of the Magi" is one of my favorite poems of all time. It's beautiful and violent and hopeless and hopeful.

Favorite lines:

"With the voices singing in our ears, saying That this was all folly." Shows the dedication of the magi, to carry on with the arduous journey even when having doubts.

The foreboding and violent imagery of the second stanza: the gambling; the feet kicking the leather wine skins; the water mill beating the darkness; the three trees mirroring the crosses at Golgotha. Just brilliant.

And the last stanza with the turmoil that a new religion brings to a people used to the old one...it just gets to me.

[Janice (JG)]

Tressa wrote: ""Journey of the Magi" is one of my favorite poems of all time. It's beautiful and violent and hopeless and hopeful. ..."

The last line of this poem -- "I should be glad of another death." -- reminds me of the Robert Louis Stevenson poem The Celestial Surgeon:
If I have faltered more or less
In my great task of happiness;
If I have moved among my race
And shown no glorious morning face;
If beams from happy human eyes
Have moved me not; if morning skies,
Books, and my food, and summer rain
Knocked on my sullen heart in vain:--
Lord, thy most pointed pleasure take
And stab my spirit broad awake;
Or, Lord, if too obdurate I,
Choose thou, before that spirit die,
A piercing pain, a killing sin,
And to my dead heart run them in!

[Ally]

Journey of the Magi is certainly a different and perhaps more gritty take on the biblical story of the three wise men.

For those that do not have access to B.C. Southam's A Student's Guide to the Selected Poems of T.S. Eliot - this study guide suggests (among other things) that some of the poem's early lines were adapted from a Nativity sermon delivered on Christmas day in 1622 by Lancelot Andrewes before King James I. In addition it suggests an influence from Yeats piece entitled 'The Adoration of the Magi'.

I agree with Tressa - the last lines about the old dispensation being uncomfortable and a readiness emerging for a new way of believing (Christianity) and the links with Birth & Death are very powerful.

Ally

[Tressa]

Ally, my little book of T. S. Eliot poems has a lot of source information in it, and it does mention that the first stanza of the poem is taken from a religious sermon. Nice how he incorporates that into his poem.

For some reason I've always loved the "set down this set down this" lines. I picture an old-as-God magi on his deathbed telling his painful story.

[Amalie]

Thanks Ally and Tressa for the extra information. I also agree with you, about the last lines.

To add something extra, I also feel this poem is about awareness and rebirth, and the pain that often comes with learning and new awareness.

The narrator is lamenting the spiritual awakening that the birth of Jesus brought upon him; his old life is lost to him forever and he cannot continue with his old beliefs, and it is for this that he wishes for his own 'death'. The birth of Jesus was for him a rupture between the old and the new, and once having known the new, he cannot stay with the old, either in his beliefs or habits.

[Michael]

I like your reading, Amalie, but I think the "death" is the death of his old self and beliefs. He wishes for another, because it was such a liberating and promising experience? Or are we saying the same things?

I heard the poem read a couple weeks ago, at an Evensong service right around New Year's. It was harsh, beautiful, and powerful in that setting.

But now.... I have to rain a tiny bit on this parade that I too am happily marching in. The rhythm, the diction, and several aspects of this poem seem awfully reminiscent of an earlier Ezra Pound translation from the Chinese. Check the poem "Exile's Letter" in this link. It is beautiful in its own right; but I will also be surprised if someone does not feel the similarities to "Magi."

http://www.bartleby.com/300/406.html


Amalie wrote: "... his old life is lost to him forever and he cannot continue with his old beliefs, and it is for this that he wishes for his own 'death'. The birth of Jesus was for him a rupture between the old and the new, and once having known the new, he cannot stay with the old, either in his beliefs or habits..."

[Amalie]

Yes, we are talking about the same thing.

As for "Exile's Letter" yeah, I see what you mean by similarities of diction (but it's a translation. right?) but I see what you mean, as for the theme, I'm not sure yet, I guess I have to read again. I'm not so quick with interpreting poems, but that's for sharing.

[Janice (JG)]

I saw the 1994 movie Tom and Viv several years ago, and I have never trusted Eliot's poetry since then... his motivations, his aspirations, and his inspiration, are all questionable to me now.

So many women who were considered "irrational" or whose behavior was considered unacceptable less than a century ago were locked up or defamed. Maybe Eliot drove her crazy... if all women whose husbands made them nuts were institutionalized, there'd be few (if any) women left.

I am reminded of the Kennedy's daughter Rosemary, who was lobotomized in the 1940's when she was 23, for sneaking out of the house at night, and for having mood swings.

Here's the wiki page for Eliot's wife Vivienne:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivienne...

[Ally]

I agree - women were thought to be prone to hysteria and madness simply by virtue of having a womb! - its an interesting area of literature to look into. Its probably outside of the realms of this group but I loved The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman.

Ally

[Michael]

Wasn't it Eliot who said, The immature poet imitates, the mature poet steals...? Maybe a propos on this little comparison.

[Janice (JG)]

Michael wrote: "Wasn't it Eliot who said, The immature poet imitates, the mature poet steals...? Maybe a propos on this little comparison."


I had to look this up... great quote from Eliot's The Sacred Wood:

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest.

... And undoubtedly practiced what he preached.

[Ally]

I like this quote. I think this could be part of the fragmentation the modernist poets felt and incorporated into their works. Kind of like taking the best of the past but moulding it into something new. A dissociation from all that was thought corrupt in the world without totally obliterating what has gone before. Its like smashing a mirror and using the peces in a different way to show something new - a different view.

Ally

[Janice (JG)]

Ally wrote: "I agree - women were thought to be prone to hysteria and madness simply by virtue of having a womb! - its an interesting area of literature to look into. Its probably outside of the realms of this group but I loved The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman..."


She was still alive in the 20's, and still publishing in 1916. If you nominate The Yellow Wallpaper, I'll vote for it :)

[Jan C]

Janice Geranium wrote: "Ally wrote: "I agree - women were thought to be prone to hysteria and madness simply by virtue of having a womb! - its an interesting area of literature to look into. Its probably outside of the re..."

That's one book I already have. Haven't read it yet, though.

[Amalie]

I agree, The Yellow Wallpaper is a landmark book, I think it's the first attempt of giving a voice or a pen to the "mad woman" and what a story it is. When I read it I didn't find it difficult or depressing, as I first thought it would. I think it's Charlotte Gilman through The Yellow Wallpaper made way to novels like "Wide Sargasso Sea" by Jean Rhys and gave the chance to voice their story to people like Sylvia Plath or Antonia White.

[Charles]

Jan C wrote: "Janice Geranium wrote: "Ally wrote: "I agree - women were thought to be prone to hysteria and madness simply by virtue of having a womb! - its an interesting area of literature to look into. Its pr..."

Gilman also wrote a first-rate murder mystery,her last work and unpublished in her time (Feminist Press, 1997) The Unpunished. The victim is shot, knifed, beaten, strangled, and poisoned. There is a husband and wife detective team, and the book raises feminist issues not given an airing until the 70s. A good read.

[Michael]

Ally wrote: "I like this quote. I think this could be part of the fragmentation the modernist poets felt and incorporated into their works. Kind of like taking the best of the past but moulding it into something new. A dissociation from all that was thought corrupt in the world without totally obliterating what has gone before. Its like smashing a mirror and using the peces in a different way to show something new - a different view..."

I like this post! I don't know whether your description is entirely accurate, because I am not a poetry scholar, but it sure paints a vivid picture and has a truth to it. I do know that one of Pound's books was titled "Make It New." Fits with your depiction.

[Edit: Here's the link, fwiw; doesn't say much, but.... [book:Make It New: Essays|1737155].]