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The Good That Prevails: Optimism in Vic Lit
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We're really all circling around what I said originally in #2 and #6: no matter how much misery the characters suffered in any novel, a happy ending was written for it. I think we can debate from today till next Christmas as to whether that makes the book optimistic, except that some books are more optimistic than others.
What will be more interesting to me than the debate is just seeing how the perceptions are different. And maybe what each of us looks for to determine in our own minds how we would classify a book. I think it will be a helpful thread, because sometimes all we have to go by is the publisher's description or more general public views. Many of us seem to like more detail than that as we choose our books.
I read professional reviews in choosing books. I'm not of the young internet generation in thinking that an experienced book critic's review and a 15-year-old's review have equal value. Film and book reviews of value must go way past "I-liked-it" and "I-didn't-like-it." But that's a topic not suitable for this thread.
I just want an entertaing read for my money. I enjoy 19th century fiction because they lack badly written sex scenes and drug use by characters are not there to suggest hipness and fashion.Also, I read 19th century literature for the wit and humour of the author regardless of genre.
I look at the structure and development of the work, the narratiive(s), and characterisations. And depending whether it is a ghost story or not I like to consider the realism.
But most of all it is satire and wit I look for in my entertainment.
That's great criteria, Malcolm. I also dislike books about drug abuse and alcoholism, although I'm open to modern books about other topics. Dickens has much humor in many of his books, but I'm not sure if he wrote his most stereotypical characters for humor or with total seriousness. Your view of WH as social satire is most interesting, but I don't think you'll find anyone in print who agrees with you. I think Bronte was dead serious, even though the piling up of one tragedy after another might seem absurd to some modern readers.
As for realism in ghost stories, the situations might not be real, but we expect the characters to act and think in a realistic manner, and ditto for good science fiction.
I second that, Rochelle. Good discussion points.
That would make an excellent topic, re: Dickens stereotyped characters. I think he's more interested in social satire than Bronte was. Maybe when we finish our commentary on Vic fairy tale books.... And in between, we can actually read some books. I'm thinking of starting Canterbury Tales with the Western Canon group.
I know, I am starting Little Dorrit, this is my second time trying to read it, but I will persist. Also, I never read Edgar Allan Poe, but I saw some movies with Vincent Price, and that was enough to creep me out.Also saw the Haunted, with Julie Harris, that was an old black and white and that one is a good, creepy one, also.
Rochelle wrote: "As for realism in ghost stories, the situations might not be real, but we expect the characters to act and think in a realistic manner, and ditto for good science fiction."With regards to ghost sories/ tales of supernatural horror, one simply cannot read them for realism. Some of Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu's short stories are written to permit a certain realism for example An Account of Some Strange Occurances in Aungier Street, or Chapter in the History of a Tyrone Family, but in general as with all ghost stories of the period, I can read them only as satire and farce. I certainly cannot read a ghost story with a straight face and make-believe realism no matter who the author may be 'classic' or modern.
I don't think Emily's piling up of horror as absurd, far from it. It was in keeping with the gothic horror tales which went before it. And as for the realism of the relationships within the Earnshaw family, I see that as near true to life as possible and probably far more restrained than we can imagine. But everything from the descriptive language she used, the classical and biblical illusions, the situations, and the obvious shock her readers would recieve is just typical of a highly gifted satirist. If you take into consideration the works and writers who influenced her, my point will be more than clear.By the way, it is said that one of the influences behind Bertha Mason in Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre came from the Dutch woman in Sheridan Le Fanu's Chapter in the History of a Tyrone Family.
Rochelle wrote: "We're really all circling around what I said originally in #2 and #6: no matter how much misery the characters suffered in any novel, a happy ending was written for it. I think we can debate from t..."For me, a happy ending does not necessarily equate to an optimistic book.
For me it depends what the overall theme of the story is. Happy ending to me equate to fairy tales. Not everyone leads happier lives at the end.
Patrick Bronte, father of the sisters subscribed to literary magazines such as Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, and the Bronte sisters, we are told, enjoyed reading the fiction contained in the magazine.Oxford World Classics has a collection of short stories from that magazine 'Tales of Terror from Blackwood's Magazine'.
The also have a collection of short stories from rival publications of the period: 'The Vampyr and Other Tales of the Macabre'.
It is all becoming clear to me that they must have had earlier influences from these magazines. Thanks, Malcolm
Malcolm, I think you should start some threads of your own.
You have a vast store of knowledge about so many topics that are relevant to literature. Aside from the Bronte one that's already been started, you could conduct discussions on any number of things, either here or at Reader's Review. You don't have to be a mod to do so.
I noticed that Bronte's thread earlier. They seem more concerned about which actress will play Cathy Earnshaw or which actor has the better curls. I'm giving it a wide berth, soz lol
I really couldn't think what to discuss other than satire. But thanks for the suggestion :o)
I just went through that Bronte thread, Sarah, and there's very little of substance there about their backgrounds. It's largely a debate over the last 2 incarnations of WH on TV and film.
Rochelle, I really couldn't think what to discuss other than satire. But thanks for the suggestion :o)
Our posts overlapped. My experience with you, Malcolm, in both groups, is that you often have background info that the rest of us haven't bothered to look up. But maybe you'll be inspired by the next few reads at either group. BTW--there's a nomination thread right now at RR for January.
You folks can add another thread if you would like, the point is that you are steering THIS thread into too much Bronte detail. It was already mentioned twice, so please do heed the suggestion. If you need any help in starting a new thread alongside the other Bronte thread, please let me know. This is not a discouragement of the topic you have been discussing. The threads serve the purpose of keeping us organized so that other people can join in where they are interested.
Victorians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Death Comes for the Archbishop (other topics)Silas Marner (other topics)
Then we can keep the content in this thread more focused on the individual book a person might list to fit our optimism topic. I'm not saying that your discussions of the Brontes motivations here is NOT on topic, just that it might be better further discussed in a thread specific to Wuthering Heights or in their thread under the Authors folder.
No worries, no problems -- hey Happy Holidays!