Chicks On Lit discussion
Archive 08-19 BR & Challenges
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The Great Gatsby anyone?
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This discussion has made me want to reread again. YAY.
Oh do, Rebecca. I did request the DVD on netflix with Redford and Farrow. I do remember seeing it ages ago and when I picked up the book again, and saw the word Gatsby, that vision equalled Redford and Daisy equalled Mia Farrow. That is why I am curious about the visual sense being tied up with the reading sense.
Shay, I just finished chapter 6 last night, and I feel like he's a bit of a romantic too. There's just something very sweet and endearing about a person who loves and longs for an old girlfriend for the past 5 years. Maybe I missed something when reading, but why exactly did they break up? Was it because he was shipping out to war?
I think that is answered towards the end of the book, Sarah. (but it does have something to do with $$$)
Oh okay. Guess I'll find out soon! I'm going to try to finish tonight.
Hi all, I am new to this whole process and I apologize if I am repeating something that has been discussed. I am a bit behind and I did try to skim everything said. I am wondering about an item in Chapter 2. The train runs by the 'ashes' that they are shoveling and the air is dusty. Do we know what this is? At first I wondered if it was coal, but I am stumped.
Angie wrote: "Hi all, I am new to this whole process and I apologize if I am repeating something that has been discussed. I am a bit behind and I did try to skim everything said. I am wondering about an item i..."Hi Angie, I sort of thinking it was the way Fitzgerald described the scenery. You know how sometimes you look out at certain times of the day and see a shade of gray so that is what I thought he was describing. ...but that is only a guess!
Hmm I will have to go back and read it again, I thought there were real men shoveling real ash...but I can certainly see, with the way he writes, that you may well be right!
I just now saw this thread, and I happen to be reading this book right now. I'm in the middle of chapter 7, so it looks like I'm at the same spot as most of you. What a coincidence! I'm really enjoying this book so far :-)
Angie, I am going by memory,as I taught this last year, but this area represented the lower class, more industrial side, of NY. These are definitely your working class. I thought of it being more like coal, but also very symbolic of the outlook of those in that area. This is where George Wilson was from and it seemed to starkly contrast Tom. As a side note, I am excited to see so much positive conversation. I have always liked it, but last year many of my students were too easily discouraged and didn't want to put any work into getting through the book. It was a little disappointing.
Angie wrote: "Hmm I will have to go back and read it again, I thought there were real men shoveling real ash...but I can certainly see, with the way he writes, that you may well be right!"I'm pretty sure it was real, too I got the impression maybe a railway yard? Maybe because I associate trains with NY and coal with trains. I love how everything is so perfect on the surface of Tom and Daisy and Gatsby's world. It really makes all of the imperfections so glaring- the infidelity, the griminess of the garage, etc.
A novel of contrast all done up in a bit over 100 pages!
I finished it! I'll wait until tomorrow to talk about the ending so I don't ruin it for the people not done yet, but it was enjoyable. I admit, I went on sparknotes.com afterwards to better understand some of what was going on. I think I'll appreciate this book much more when I eventually re-read it. I'll be able to pick up on subtleties and things that I missed the first time around in my eagerness to read it.
Whooo hooo! I finished it...I am headed to do a bit of research on some of the items mentioned in the book. I feel quite accomplished as this was a book I wanted to read for some time now. I think I must have started it a few times, the first couple of chapters were too familiar.
We should all feel proud of ourselves as we have all read an American classic! Let everybody know Sarah and Angie what you are able to find. Thanks!
Thanks for the insight on the ashes to all who replied. Regarding the 'garage' I agree, there was such a vivid picture of that hazy garage, I see it out in the middle of nowhere brown/gray and desolate. I am sure there is deep meaning to this and I aim to ponder it!The site listed here, says the valley of ashes was a trash burning area: http://www.litkicks.com/InGatsbysTracks
"According to Some Sort of Epic Grandeur: The Life of F. Scott Fitzgerald by Matthew Bruccoli, one of Fitzgerald's earliest inspirations for The Great Gatsby was the striking vision of a vast, desolate "valley of ashes" -- a gigantic trash burning operation -- on the road between Great Neck and Manhattan."
I know this novel is supposed to be big and important because of the social commentary about social status and money, etc... but I was more focused on the big love entanglements that were going on. Maybe cause it was my first time reading it. I think that overall, I liked the character of Gatsby. It was sweet that he was pining away all those years for Daisy, and that he was having these huge parties just hoping she would show up. I'm a romantic, and that part was just too sweet. And I really felt bad for him in the end, cause it turns out she really just wasn't worth it. I felt bad for her at first, because Tom sucks, but she's not really any better than him.
See, this is why I love reading with others! I never even thought of the parties as an allure to getting Daisy to show up but of course that makes perfect sense. I thought of the parties as a way of asserting himself in a social milieu he knew he didn't belong in. I felt Gatsby was trying to "buy" his way into that class he was denied before. I did think it was kind of creepy the way he would not participate in his own parties. He kind of viewed them from the outside and really never did become the focus of the parties he was paying for. Perhaps Fitzgerald was hammering home that old adage of "money can't buy happiness"
Sarah wrote: "I know this novel is supposed to be big and important because of the social commentary about social status and money, etc... but I was more focused on the big love entanglements that were going on...."No, I agree with you. Quite a bit of the book hinges on whether or not you believe that Gatsby loves Daisy so deeply that he would completely remake himself for her. Because she is the inspiration for it all and if you don't believe he loves her, the whole premise of the book is gone. Now, we can question whether it's really love or obsession, but I think we have to buy into his love for her.
To me, now, the love Gatsby has for Daisy reminds me of the medieval "courtly love"- love for the sake of being in love. The parties are his ballad, the troubadour song. I don't think his version of love could survive reality- he was in love with the idea of Daisy and what she represented as opposed to really loving her as a person. When I first read it, I really despised Daisy, the wishing her daughter would be a beautiful fool and choosing Tom. Now, I feel sorry for her. In a way, she's right, her daughter should be a beautiful fool- that's the only way she won't feel trapped like Daisy, the only way she won't resent being an ornament and not a real person. By being to stupid to want more out of life than she can get. I guess that's why I feel sorry for Daisy- she's smart enough to want more, but too weak to go against society and really go after it.
I think I have mentioned this before but having read The House of Mirth, I definitely saw what being "on the outside" of that wealth/entitlement class could do to people who so desperately wanted in. I, too, loved that phrase "beautiful fool" as if Daisy was wishing for her daughter to know and recognize nothing that would in any way make her "think" about what life had to offer outside her circle. It was as if Daisy wanted to put blinders on her child so that she could only look forward and never to the sides of her life. How extremely sad and pathetic that wish was!While Daisy could/would never break out, Gatsby could never break in.
Marialyce wrote: "I think I have mentioned this before but having read The House of Mirth, I definitely saw what being "on the outside" of that wealth/entitlement class could do to people who so despera..."I'm still amazed that Fitzgerald packed all of that into a tiny, little, slim volume. I found so many of the characters pathetic and repellent, yet Fitzgerald managed to make me feel really deeply for them. What an amazing talent!
Brenda wrote: "I think he knew these people in real life. His wife seemed to have many of Daisy's characteristics."Re-reading this book made me more fascinated about Fitzgerald and Zelda. Does anyone know a good non-fiction book about them? I find it hard to judge a good non-fiction book in terms of, well, is it factually correct. I mean, if you're reading something because you don't know much about a subject, you're kind of taking in on faith that the author does know a lot.
Brenda and Shay, I think I remember reading that Zelda was in and out of mental hospitals. I also seem to remember that the both of them had drinking issues.
Brenda wrote: "yes, true. I read her biography ages ago. It is called Zelda I believe by the same author wrote the biography about Edna St. Vincent Millay."Thank you, I just requested it from the library. It's Zelda: A Biography by Nancy Milford. Then, while I was posting the links, these interesting books pop up:
Dear Scott, Dearest Zelda by F. Scott Fitzgerald and Save Me the Waltz by Zelda Fitzgerald.
UGH!!! There's not enough time to read everything I want to read. I wonder if it's better not to know everything (book) that you're missing.
Brenda wrote: "Zelda is not that great of a writer. Actually, I hate to say this, but I am not fond of F. Scott either."That is perfectly fine, Brenda. I do think he was good, but John Steinbeck is the author for me!
You know I have yet to read anything by Maugh. Another author I really need to explore.
Thanks, brenda, you know that will be on my list. :)
Shay wrote: "I'm still amazed that Fitzgerald packed all of that into a tiny, little, slim volume. I found so many of the characters pathetic and repellent, yet Fitzgerald managed to make me feel really deeply for them. What an amazing talent!"
I feel the same way Shay. Even though we didn't get to spend much time with the characters (especially because it was all from Nick's POV), I feel like I could discuss them all day long. Ironically, the character I think I felt the least for was Nick - depsite the fact that he was narrator, I barely felt connected to him.
This was my first Fitzgerald book, what others by him would you guys recommend?
I agree, I am still a bit surprised that I did not really CARE about any of the characters. Gatsby seems pathetic and odd, Nick was rather disconnected and seemed to like no one. Daisy WAS a FOOL, she just seemed silly. Maybe the point is how shallow we all are-- that era is certainly portrayed that way. I can see why people would not like the book, but i really did like it! Perhaps the characters are more real than most characters? It definately has me thinking.
Sarah wrote: "Shay wrote: "I'm still amazed that Fitzgerald packed all of that into a tiny, little, slim volume. I found so many of the characters pathetic and repellent, yet Fitzgerald managed to make me feel r..."Sarah, Tender is the Night was my favorite Fitzgerald. I think it's said that it's the most "biographical" book. Where it ranks in terms of his best, I don't know.
Marialyce wrote: "Brenda wrote: "Zelda is not that great of a writer. Actually, I hate to say this, but I am not fond of F. Scott either."That is perfectly fine, Brenda. I do think he was good, but John Steinbeck..."
Steinbeck is definitely one of my favorite authors. I've always loved how he was able to so effectively write a "simple" story that was also a complex story full of allusions, deeper meanings, etc. I also love that through all of the horrible things he writes about, like the Dust Bowl and migrant labor, that he finds such hope in humanity and human beings. You somehow feel that he looked out at the human race and saw that we are mostly good. Maybe it's simplistic of me, but I feel better when I finish a Steinbeck than when I finish a book like Blindness.
I would have to agree that Tender Is the Night is my favorite Fitzgerald novel as well. One of my goals this year is to read/reread all the Steinbeck novels. He definitely held out much hope for the human race. East of Eden is so far my most favorite Steinbeck novel.Blindness, definitely not on my list as a Great book, held the human race in contempt IMO.
I'd just like to add a strange coincidence to this discussion. While I was in the midst of writing my memoir, MAJOR LEAGUE BRIDE: AN INSIDE LOOK AT LIFE OUTSIDE THE BALLPARK, I attended a MLB charity golf event with my husband at the Newport (RI) Country Club.I was thrilled to see that one of the lockers in the ladies locker room had a brass plate engraved with the name DAISY BUCHANNAN! The more life changes, the more it reamins the same.
I read this book for one of my English classes a couple of semesters ago and it was one of the most beautifully written books I have ever read. There is poetry on almost every page and the story is very sweet and romantic w/o being mushy lol ... so many issues going on in that book that almost any person can relate to ...
"Sweet and romantic without being mushy" is the perfect way to describe it! There were no real obvious declarations of forever love, but you could just feel the passion that Gatsby had for Daisy.
It has been several years since my last reading of The Great Gatsby, but I did not feel that passion, nor did I find it romantic. But, I should make a disclaimer, I am a CYNIC, definitely in caps. I thought Gatsby was in love with Daisy's status, her world, and he wanted to belong to that world, to have a right to that world, and everything he did was to prove that. He did not seem to enjoy anything, not the parties, the people, the clothes and other possessions, the neighborhood, nothing. His life seemed to be one neon billboard shouting "I made it! Don't you see I made it?! Tell me I belong!".
I haven't read Gatsby in ages, but I agree with Irene. I didn't find the story romantic at all. I thought that Gatsby was passionate in his pursuit of Daisy, and his new life style, but Daisy on her part, was cold and heartless. I've also wondered about Gatsby's love for Daisy. Initially it was her wealth that attracted Gatsby, and I feel like she would be the perfect trophy for his new-found wealth. I guess what he didn't know is that the old money and the noveau riche just don't mingle.
Regine & Irene - those are interesting interpretations. I actually feel like he wanted to be belong to Daisy's world ONLY for Daisy and because of his undying love for her. I don't think he cared one way or another for any of the material 'stuff' if it hadn't been a way to possibly win his love back. And, yes, Irene, you are correct, he didn't seem to enjoy anything. However, I feel that he did not truly enjoy anything because he didn't have the one thing in his life that he longed for: Daisy's heart.
fivesunflowers wrote: "Regine & Irene - those are interesting interpretations. I actually feel like he wanted to be belong to Daisy's world ONLY for Daisy and because of his undying love for her. I don't think he cared..."Oh that's a good point. He really didn't seem to have much enjoyment in anything until he got to see Daisy again... I figured he loved her because of her wealth and status, but maybe he only started like wealth and status because he loved her. I guess it could easily be interpreted either way!
Sarah wrote: "I know this novel is supposed to be big and important because of the social commentary about social status and money, etc... but I was more focused on the big love entanglements that were going on...."Sarah - I did the same thing - focus on the "love entaglements." After these threads I am going to read this book again and see what I focus on this time around.
Chicks On Lit
Books mentioned in this topic
Blindness (other topics)Dear Scott, Dearest Zelda: The Love Letters of F. Scott and Zelda Fitzgerald (other topics)
Zelda (other topics)
Save Me the Waltz (other topics)
The House of Mirth (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Zelda Fitzgerald (other topics)F. Scott Fitzgerald (other topics)
Nancy Milford (other topics)
Interesting note about the movie: Daisy was portrayed by Mia Farrow. Mia Farrow's mother was Maureen O'Sullivan who starred in "A Yank at Oxford". "She appeared as Molly Beaumont in A Yank at Oxford (1938), which was written partly by F. Scott Fitzgerald. At her request, he rewrote her part to give it substance and novelty." (from Wiki)