Dorothy Dunnett fans discussion
Lymond Chronicles
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The Game of Kings discussion beginning on December 14, 2010
message 1:
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Sj
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Dec 14, 2010 09:57AM
Thanks, I'd rather guess and be wrong than know in advance. One of the real advantages of reading DD's books is that you can be reading and going towzrd a point that she never intended and when she changes your direction, you're not even disappointed for long. And you realize that the clues she's given you make more sense the way she planned for you to use them. I am just now in Pawn and am feeling confident (not intelligent) enough to try to get ahead of her. It doesn't always work, but a spoiler would ruin it all.sj
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Mary, this is a schedule that takes us through Part One. Each discussion section consists of 20-40 pages of text and will hopefully allow sufficient discussion time.Discussion Schedule~The Game of Kings
~Prologue & Part One~
Dec 14-thru Opening Gambit
(Break for Christmas/New Year Holidays)
Part One~The Play for Jonathan Crouch
Jan 2-thru Chapter I: Taking en Passant
Jan 6-thru Chapter II: Blindfold Play
Chapter III: More Blindfold Play
Jan 10-thru Chapter IV: Several Moves by a Knight
Chapter V: Castling
Jan 14-thru Chapter VI: Forced Move for a Minor Piece
Chapter VII: A Variety of Mating Replies
1. Play with a Rook Proves Dangerous
2. Check and Cross Check
Here's the remaining discussion schedule:
Jan 18-thru Part Two~The Play for Gideon Somerville
Jan 21-thru Part Three~The Play for Samuel Harvey
Jan 25-thru Part Four~The End Game
Chapter I: Twice Taken
Jan 27-thru Part Four, Chapter II: The Ultimate Check
Jan 29-thru Part Four, Chapter III: Knight Adversary
Jan 31-thru the end-Part Four, Chapter IV: Baring
Mod
Thanks Sandra.If anyone else would like to join us we'd love to have you participate. Please, let us know if we need to adjust the schedule, for instance if 20-40 pages too much, or we need to push back the dates, etc.
I'm looking forward to this.
Mod
Katherine, what do you think Lymond means when he says,
"I am a narwhal looking for my virgin."?
Baby Queen is 4 years old. 1547."
Are you sure she's 4? I thought she was more like two.
MaryZorro wrote: "what do you think Lymond means when he says,"I am a narwhal looking for my virgin."?"
A narwhal is an ocean creature with a tusk like a unicorn and lore links the narwhal to the unicorn. In fact a narwhal is often referred to as "the unicorn of the sea." Its "horn" has long been considered of rare value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narwhal
In legend a unicorn is a magical creature of great power that could only be captured and tamed by a virgin. Actually the legend is kind of gruesome because after the virgin lures the unicorn it lays its head in her lap and falls asleep, and only then it can be captured and killed.
Here's an informative site concerning the myth and some of its various tellings, etc.
http://www.whiterosesgarden.com/Unico...
The unicorn is used as a heraldic symbol of Scotland. The Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland, used prior to 1603 by the Kings of Scotland, incorporated a lion rampant shield supported by two unicorns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Co...
All of these together give the reader a subtle hint concerning Lymond's status as a traitor.
HolyroodMary, I searched and searched for the great site that had all those wonderful pictures of Holyrood Palace and Abbey but couldn't find it. I did come up with these.
Holyrood History http://www.visitdunkeld.com/holyrood-...
Holyrood Palace and Abbey from above
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hol...
The Palace of Holyrood House & Holyrood Abbey
http://www.marie-stuart.co.uk/Castles...
Holyrood Abbey
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/sc...
http://www.free-city-guides.com/edinb...
Pictures of Holyrood Palace and Park (you have to click on each picture)
http://www.stuckonscotland.co.uk/edin...
"I am a narwhal looking for my virgin."Notice Lymond doesn't say he's a unicorn looking for his virgin, but a narwhal. Which I find pretty humorous because he says this in answer to someone's remark that he's gey (very) wet. Well, yeah, because he's just gained entry into walled Edinburgh by swimming the Nor' Loch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nor_Loch
He returns not by land but via water.
Mod
OK, Mary. I was wrong about the age of the queen. Didn't have my book in front of me.
Isn't this discussion starting tomorrow?
MaryZorro wrote: "Oops you're right, Sandra..."It seems it's just the few of us discussing and we've all read it before no biggie. Of course there could be others reading that have not piped up yet so apologies on jumping the gun.
MaryZorro wrote: "My Little Girl comes Sunday and I know I won't be able to keep up with the schedule while she is here. That is ok, you all go ahead. I will catch up after she leaves."No way, lady, I'm waiting for you.
Let's discuss the Opening Gambit and then put a temporary hold on the schedule to accommodate the holidays.
Mary, I also reworked the schedule so it's not paced so quickly because it seemed to not allow enough discussion time. I had also not taken into consideration that the pace for any new readers at 20-40 pages a day (plus discussion) would be killing. I replaced Message 4 with a kinder, friendlier schedule. Could you please switch it on Message 1 as well? Thanks.
Sorry for any confusion, but this seems to work better. Plus I figured why rush a good thing. :)
Flodden
The Battle of Flodden or Flodden Field was fought in the county of Northumberland in northern England on 9 September 1513, between an invading Scots army under King James IV and an English army commanded by Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey. It ended in a victory for the English and was the largest battle (in terms of numbers) fought between the two nations.
The Battle
The battle actually took place near the village of Branxton, in the county of Northumberland, rather than at Flodden — hence the alternative name is Battle of Branxton. The Scots had previously been stationed at Flodden Edge, to the south of Branxton, which the Earl of Surrey compared to a fortress. Surrey moved to block off the Scots' route north and so James was forced to move his army and artillery 2 miles to Branxton Hill. When the armies were within 3 miles of each other Surrey sent Rouge Croix pursuivant to James who answered that he would wait till noon. At 11 o'clock Lord Howard's vanguard and artillery crossed the Twissell Bridge. (Pitscottie says the king would not allow the Scots artillery to fire on the vulnerable English during this manouevre.) The Scots army was in good order in 5 formations, after the Almain (German) manner. On Friday afternoon the Scots host descended without speaking any word to meet the English.
According to English report, first the groups commanded by the Earls of Huntly, Arran and Crawford totalling 6000 men engaged Lord Howard and were repulsed and mostly slain. Then James IV himself leading a great force came on to Surrey and Lord Darcy's son who bore the brunt of the battle. Lennox and Argyll's commands were met by Sir Edward Stanley.
James was killed within a spear length from Surrey and his body taken to Berwick. The 'rent surcoat of the King of Scots stained with blood' was sent to Henry VIII at Tournai. The biggest error the Scots made was placing their officers in the front line, medieval style. A Scottish letter of January 1514 contrasts this loss of the nobility with the English great men who took their stand with the reserves and at the rear. The English generals stayed behind the lines in the Renaissance style. The loss of so many Scottish officers meant there was no one to coordinate a retreat.
Flodden was essentially a victory of bill used by the English over the pike used by the Scots. As a weapon, the pike was effective only in a battle of movement, especially to withstand a cavalry charge. The pike had become a Swiss weapon of choice and represented modern warfare. The hilly terrain of Northumberland, the nature of the combat, and the slippery footing did not allow it to be employed to best effect. Bishop Ruthall reported to Wolsey, 'the bills disappointed the Scots of their long spears, on which they relied.' The infantrymen at Flodden, both Scots and English, had fought in a fashion that in essence would have been familiar to their ancestors, and it has rightly been described as the last great medieval battle in the British Isles. This was the last time that bill and pike would come together as equals in battle.
As a reward for his victory, Howard was subsequently restored to the title of "Duke of Norfolk", lost by his father's support for Richard III.
To read the entire article concerning the Battle of Flodden, to see pictures of the weapons (bill or pike), see the numbers of casualties, or a list of notable men who died in this battle follow this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flodden
Solway Moss
The Battle of Solway Moss took place on Solway Moss near the River Esk on the English side of the Anglo-Scottish Border in November 1542 between forces from England and Scotland.
When Henry VIII of England broke from the Roman Catholic Church, he asked James V of Scotland, his nephew, to do the same. James ignored his uncle's request, and further insulted him by refusing to meet with Henry at York. Furious, Henry VIII sent troops against Scotland. In retaliation for the massive English raid into Scotland, James responded by assigning Robert, Lord Maxwell, the Scottish Warden of West March, the task of raising an army.
The Battle
On 24 November 1542, an army of 15,000-18,000 Scots advanced south. Maxwell, though never officially designated commander of the force, declared he would lead the attack in person.
The Scots advance was met at Solway Moss by Sir Thomas Wharton and his 3,000 men. Sir William Musgrove, an English commander, reported that Maxwell was still in charge, and fought with the rest of the Scottish nobles who dismounted on the bank of the River Esk. A report of Sir George Douglas of Pittendreich and later chronicle accounts say that with the earlier loss of Maxwell, Sir Oliver Sinclair de Pitcairns, James V's favourite, declared himself to be James's chosen commander. Unfortunately, the other commanders refused to accept his command and the command structure disintegrated.
The battle was uncoordinated and is better described as a rout. The Scots were pursued by the English and found themselves penned in South of the River Esk, on English territory between the river and the Moss, and surrendered themslves and their 10 field guns to the English cavalry. Several hundred of the Scots may have drowned in the marshes and river.
James, who was not present at the battle (he remained at Lochmaben), withdrew to Falkland Palace humiliated and ill with fever. He died there two weeks later at the age of thirty. According to George Douglas in his delirium he lamented the capture of his banner and Oliver Sinclair at Solway Moss more than his other losses. He left behind a six-day-old daughter, Mary, Queen of Scots.
Casualties, Prisoners, and Pledges
Gervase Phillips has estimated that only about 7 Englishmen and 20 Scots were killed but 1,200 Scottish prisoners were taken, including Sinclair, the Earls of Cassillis and Glencairn and Maxwell. Prisoners taken to England included Lord Gray, and Stewart of Rosyth. A number of captured Scottish earls, lords and lairds were released; they sent hostages, called "pledges" into England in their place. These hostages and prisoners were mostly well treated in England, as it was hoped that when they returned to Scotland after their ransoms were paid, they would further the English cause. However, a modern historian Marcus Merriman sees the battle and hostage-taking more as the culmination of James V's war rather than the beginning of Henry VIII's Rough Wooing. He notes that the capture of so many Scottish nobles at the time of the birth and accession of Mary, Queen of Scots did not affect Henry's policy or the Scottish lords's subsequent rejection of the Treaty of Greenwich in December 1543.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_o...
Mod
MaryZorro wrote: ">
I looked this up but it is more than I want to know!"
Lol. There is discussion of many of these things in the Game of Kings group on Yahoo. I went through their earliest discussions when I read it 2nd time last month. It would help if you would put the context for the words you want defined. I think the Olla Podidra term was used symbolically in a sentence, for instance.
But how was he using this reference?
Jan 2-thru Chapter I: Taking en PassantI think we see some of the cruelty that has become part of Lymond's nature when he drops the hot helmet on young Wharton's head. He'd already gotten the money he wanted yet he enacts this bit of cruelty with the advice, "That will perhaps remind you not to speak to strange gentlemen in dark streets." Perhaps some might argue that it was a means of ensuring a diversion so he could get away but I thought it blatantly unnecessary.
Mod
I think we see some of the cruelty that has become part of Lymond's nature when he drops the hot helmet on young Wharton's head. He'd already gotten the mon..."
I think you should post this in the 'spoilers' thread. Discussion should probably proceed there.
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "I think you should post this in the 'spoilers' thread. Discussion should probably proceed there."Sandra, our schedule for this thread states that by Jan 2 we will be discussing the book through Part One, Chapter I. So there are spoilers but only on schedule. Your comment leads me to think we may have differing visions for how this thread should be used. If you'd like we can change the heading from "No Spoilers" to "Spoilers Only On Schedule." Otherwise I'm not sure how ANY discussion can take place. Please let us know if this is a problem, if it is we can take the discussion elsewhere. Thanks.
Mod
Sandra, our schedule for this thread states that by Jan 2 we will be discu..."
I think if there is going to be a book discussion in this thread, then I'll change the thread title to indicate that and set up another thread for 'no spoilers'. Other group typically do a no spoilers thread that is for people who are planning to read or have read and to state their general impressions and reactions with "no spoilers."
Thanks Sandra, the new heading clarifies it for everyone. Much appreciated.
Mod
Should've thought of it before. You're welcome.
MaryZorro wrote: "Katherine, notice that the gypsies are at Midculter before Sybilla and the ladies receive a visit from Lymond....we can talk about this later toward the end of the book."I remember we mentioned this on the first reading but can't remember now what we made of it. Ha, sometimes I appreciate my memory being vague because I can experience a book all over again almost like it's new, but not so sure it's helpful in this instance.
MaryZorro wrote: "Now Katherine, lighten up! Man-joke! After all he had recently thrown a knife into Mrs. Wat Scott Buchaleaugh's shoulder and set fire to the family castle with his MOTHER and 40 women inside. This is just a Man-joke to make a point! I think you are turning against our hero. ;)"
Hahaha.
As far as Janet Buccleuch is concerned she's "no' so gey innocent" as she went for one of Lymond's men with a dagger and Lymond stopped her. In my mind it could be considered warranted. And he didn't kill her though he could have.
With Midculter Castle I don't believe Lymond for one moment meant to burn it or the women inside. First, the bonfires were lit on the outside of the castle walls which were probably stone. Had he meant to cause real damage the fires would have been started within where the flames could reach flammable materials. And second, he knew the fires he set outside would effectively signal someone to come to the castle immediately, as we see they did directly from Boghall and all the men from Lord Flemming's garrison. In fact, all they had to do was "tear away the faggots and, using hatchets break through the doors." So I think it was purposely done but without meaning to harm either the castle or the women.
Part of my reasoning for this is that Lymond tells the women, "The Olla Podrida, my sweethearts, will now be set on the fire." An Olla podrida, as you mentioned, is a hodge-podge stew, but it's also slow-cooked over a low fire for hours. And the literal translation means "rotten pot" which opens up a whole new meaning when you contemplate what exactly Lymond means to set to a slow heat. Is it in reference to these women and their class, their lifesyles or beliefs? Or is he meaning to bring to a slow boil other things, people's emotions perhaps, maybe Richard's in particular?
Lymond walks a fine line in some of these incidents but thus far only with young Wharton do I see him crossing into wanton cruelty.
As a hero Lymond is a strange mix isn't he?
Why does Lymond refer to Dame Buccleuch as a "female Telemachus?" Is it because she comes close to accomplishing her task of killing one of his men? Is he making reference to Telemachus almost completing the task of stringing Odysseus' bow? Here's the quote from Wikipeida...
When Penelope challenges the suitors to string Odysseus' bow and shoot an arrow through the handle-holes of twelve axeheads, Telemachus is the first to attempt the task. He would have completed the task, nearly stringing the bow on his fourth attempt; however, Odysseus stops him before he can finish his attempt. Following the failure of the suitors at this task, Odysseus reveals himself, and he and Telemachus bring swift and bloody death to the suitors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemachus
Or is it something else in regards to her loud dramatics which he also mentions. Arrrgh! Again I lament my deplorable lack of knowledge of Greek classics.
Katherine wrote: "MaryZorro wrote: "Now Katherine, lighten up! Man-joke! After all he had recently thrown a knife into Mrs. Wat Scott Buchaleaugh's shoulder and set fire to the family castle with his MOTHER and 40 w..."I took the hot helmet to be Lymond's form of a harsh lesson, not to be readily forgotton: young Wharton had been a complete idiot, twice over, and carelessly endangered all of the garrison...but it's been some years since I read the book, last, and I may have fuzzed out something.
Katherine wrote: "Why does Lymond refer to Dame Buccleuch as a "female Telemachus?" Is it because she comes close to accomplishing her task of killing one of his men? Is he making reference to Telemachus almost co..."
My take, this referred to Telemachus heroically trying to deal with the suitors who violated his mother's home, and being hopelessly over matched. Likewise, Janet was over faced, and wouldn't recognize the fact she was beaten. If she had persisted, she might have gotten herself hurt.
My take on the helmet incident:Necessary, if cruel. He needed something to occupy everyone in the room,
something that would keep them absolutely planted in that room, so that he
and Will could escape. The hot helmet is what he came up with. I've never
been able to come up with any less cruel alternative action that would have
been as effective. If he hadn't done it, he and Will would surely have been
captured and killed. He did cool it off a little (g)
Mickey who really can't comment on the fire with out getting in spoilers, so will bite my tongue.
Mickey wrote: "...Mickey who really can't comment on the fire with out getting in spoilers, so will bite my tongue."lol Okay, Mickey, so now my mind has gone into overdrive trying to connect it to something I didn't get in the first reading of the book. Oh dear, well, I'll have to try to remember to ask you later if I miss where this figures in this time through.
Note to self: pick Mickey's brain concerning Lymond's castle blazing. :)
Janny wrote: "My take, this referred to Telemachus heroically trying to deal with the suitors who violated his mother's home, and being hopelessly over matched..."Thanks Janny, that makes sense. I know there is so much I'm missing because I don't make the connection to many of the allusions Dunnett uses.
Even with these explanations for Lymond's use of the hot helmet I'm still having doubts as to how "necessary" it was--mostly because I can easily think of better ways of teaching a lesson or causing a diversion. I'm not sure why but something about it seems suspect or slightly off to me. Which leaves me wondering whether this particular event may be one of those DD intentionally uses to obscure Lymond to the reader. Oh, tricksy, tricksy, Ms. Dorothy.
Mod
'Telemachus' might refer to Janet 'almost' touching off a tragedy...
And the young Wharton was a fool, indeed.
Sj wrote "One of the real advantages of reading DD's books is that you can be reading and going toward a point that she never intended and when she changes your direction, **you're not even disappointed for long**. And you realize that the clues she's given you make more sense the way she planned for you to use them."I loved this, a great take on DD. Especially ** so many other authors (or all other) would have infuriated me with the way DD uses bait and switch but her writing style just makes you go aaaah so that's it. Nothing seems forced, tab A always goes into slot A.
Grace
Mod
Yes, and the more often you read them, the more tabs and slots you find!
Mickey wrote: "My take on the helmet incident:Necessary, if cruel. He needed something to occupy everyone in the room,
something that would keep them absolutely planted in that room, so that he
and Will cou..."
Mickey -- so right!
Still reading along to the schedule but not really any comments or questions. It seems to me that in this portion of the book the reader has gained only a slight understanding of what's going on and it feels like you're waiting for other events to unfold so you can get a sense of where you are. It's kind of like standing in a dense fog and being able to see only a foot in front of you.
Mod
Good analogy! I felt that way through most of the book, first time through.
MaryZorro wrote: "I am starting to read this section today for our discussion starting Jan 14..."Excellent, me too.
MaryZorro, I added the last few pages from Chapter VII to what we'll begin discussing on Jan 14th.Tomorrow I'll try to get the rest of the book divided up and a schedule made for that.
MaryZorro wrote: "Katherine, are we using this schedule now?"Yes. It's the same schedule except that I added the last portion, 2.Check and Cross Check, which consists of 10 pages, to be discussed along with the rest on Jan 14. (I'm not sure why I didn't include it in the first place.)
I've also posted the schedule for the rest of the book. It allows for about 25 pages/day because if I remember correctly the reading flows along much more quickly and smoothly after the first 200 pages. This will enable us to wrap up the discussion somewhere in the first few days of February. I hope this works for you. If not let me know and I'll make any changes we need.
The whole scheme of hijacking the supply transport, and dressing up in their uniforms and gaining entrance to Hume Castle was pretty ballsy. Then when Lymond shows up as the Spaniard Don Luis, the supposed leader of the supply train, to get Will and the captured men out it was simply ingenious. Lymond sure knows how to play others doesn't he? Not the least of those is Will Scott.I get the giggles every time I picture Lymond flapping around Lord Grey's office in that wig and shirt with his legs tarred and feathered and speaking in that outrageous broken English. When Lord Grey gets cornered into giving him his own "thpare" clothes it just about does me in. ROTFL
Can you imagine Will's face when he was pitched into the room and "introduced" to Don Luis?
Mod
I know. That is just hilarious. He's beyond clever. And Lord Gray and his lisp. Too funny.
Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "...Lord Gray and his lisp. Too funny.""De veras," said Don Luis politely. "My Lordship has the true Spanish lisp of Castile. His Spanish sin dude is as much good as the mine."
Oh my, how this must have grated, as his lisp is hardly a linguistic accomplishment. There's the briefest mention earlier in the chapter of an incident at Pinkie referring to an actual event of the battle of Pinkie Cleugh in which Lord Grey is injured by a pike being thrust through his throat and into his mouth. Ouch.
One of the things I admire about DD's writing is how deftly she takes historical fact and weaves it throughout the story. She's such a master isn't she?
Mod
Katherine, I just love your taking the definition of Olla Podrida that one step farther (I am stealing the idea and putting it in my notes)...."So I think it was purposely done but without meaning to harm either the castle or the women.
Part of my reasoning for this is that Lymond tells the women, "The Olla Podrida, my sweethearts, will now be set on the fire." An Olla podrida, as you mentioned, is a hodge-podge stew, but it's also slow-cooked over a low fire for hours. And the literal translation means "rotten pot" which opens up a whole new meaning when you contemplate what exactly Lymond means to set to a slow heat. Is it in reference to these women and their class, their lifesyles or beliefs? Or is he meaning to bring to a slow boil other things, people's emotions perhaps, maybe Richard's in particular?"
Are you all having fun??? The first 10 - 20 reads are so exciting and fun !
Mod
"So I think it was purposely done but without meani..."
Oh yes! Rotten pot! I read that somewhere else and, dim wit that I am, didn't make the further connection. 'Rotten pot' - Scottish clans perhaps? The settling of feuds with blood? Does Francis kill anyone in this book? He rarely does.
MaryZorro wrote: "The gypsies again. Is Johnnie Bullo telling Sybilla what Lymond is up to each time they appear on the scene?"Good question. Probably. Don't you think? Thus far there have been several occasions mentioned where she has been in conversation with one of them or had opportunity to pass or receive info.
I've also wondered, with Lymond's gift of disguise, could he possibly be present and passing for a gypsy himself?
Mod
MaryZorro, I thought you might be interested to know that this time through I did pick up on the subtle hints about what truly happened at the Papingo shoot. It makes me laugh to remember how clueless I was last time.
It is truly a wonder when you reread certain parts how clear they are compared to the first or seventh go around. I wish I understood it then I might catch on a little quicker. It might be the rhythm of DD's authorial voice or it might be the way I (we) read - in chunks rather than one word at a time or it could be that her hints, clues, whatever are buried in tense, tight plot points where you just gobble up the prose as fast as you can????
