James Joyce Reading Group discussion
Ulysses
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Ulysses
Nice that you are familiar with CSprings and Woodland Park. I'm above WPark and the 9200 alt and reading Joyce has me light headed. : ) Thank you for your helpful suggestions. I most certainly will tap into both sites you mentioned. Suddenly, this very morning, I came across a rich stream of juicy articles on Joyce. As a literate wantabe, I am now realizing that w Joyce I need to slow down. This is too rich to swallow whole. No, I didn't suspect that Joyce would snag me and hold me. I thought once with Ulysses would be all. Already, I am compelled to reread earlier chapters..... and I'm only 1/4 finished. This is both Ttttrouble and a blessing eh? It's nice to have a new friend on GReads. My other few friends are non users who's reading choices are unlike my own. Honestly, I am greatly relieved to be communicating with others about Joyce.
Mod
what did he do, exactly? well, i think the one thing i get from joyce - and forgive me if i have posted on this in other threads - is his concern for marrying style and subject - the style of any given section is trying to meld with what he is talking about. fascinating the way it plays out.
i am an analog consumer, not digital, so i am afraid i can not be terribly helpful in recommending online resources. of all the books i have read "about" ULYSSES, i suspect these three were the most useful:
1) stuart gilbert's book JAMES JOYCE'S ULYSSES was the first book written about the text, in collaboration with joyce. it may not be the best book ever written about U, but it stands as a great starting point of critical study.
2) the chapters on U in anthony burgess' book Re:Joyce are great - finely distilled writing - he gets right down to business and gives you a brief summary, what to look for, and how to read it.
3) THE ANNOTATED ULYSSES is great for answering those "what the hell did he just say?" kinds of questions - translations of irish slang, etc. - a most useful companion.
Philip and Bob have said it all, but I would add that Ulysses is a journey and it is all about how you grow as you read the book and the books it leads you to. I have read it once and am soon going back for a second time, but in the meantime I have read two Joyce biographies, revisited Joyce's other works (except Finnegan's Wake) and Shakespeare, as well as authors Joyce inspired like Beckett and Flann O'Brien. And having a Ulysses reading group can be wonderful. You can learn as much from an "everyman's" interpretation of Ulysses as from the scholars. Enjoy the trip!
Mod
something like, "Ulysses teaches us how to read" ... when i first read the book, back in my first year of college, i was so angry that i felt so ill-prepared to deal with the text. but like carol, or perhaps, the other way around, i began to read things (classics) that joyce had read to better prepare me to deal with the text. regardless, this is a book that challenges you to negotiate your comfort zone with reading. and most of us seem to have been pleased that we took the time to do the work.
Phillip wrote: "again, so glad you are so enjoying ULYSSES. as bob (and anthony burgess) says, this is a book of the people, not specifically created for intellectuals. what does burgess say? something like, "joyc..."You remind me of Christopher Walkins re: analog vs digital. I watched Watkins (big fan of his) being interviewed on Jon Stewart where he was being teased that he still uses his transistor radio. Stewart kindly informed him that 'it's not too late'.
With feedback from you and others on this Ulysses discussion group, I now have a newly created notebook to collect a gold mine of resources. thanks for your post.
Phillip wrote: "Ed wrote: ""In the name of the former and of the latter and of their holocaust. Allmen." ..."indudeibly!"
Thank you for this good chuckle. Hit my funny bones ~ ~ ~
I had to find where this quote came from "In the name of the former and of the latter and of their holocaust. Allmen." ..." Thaw! The last word in stolentelling! (424.35). (Finnegans Wake)
'Of the dark past/ A child is born;'Ecce Joyce!Happy birthday James Joyce!
I want to pass along two videos / links which I've been listening to and enjoying, I hope these links work for you. **** James Joyce - The Trial of Ulysses (2000)
Roundhouse production
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oDLbj...
(approx 50 mins and is commentary from Joyce scholars, etc.)
**** Wings of Art Joseph Campbell on James Joyce http://maybelogic.blogspot.com/2009/0...
This lecture series is audio, broken into 4 (or 5?) one hour segments. There are a (very) few sections which are a bit rough. I am only 1/3 of the way into Ulysses and so I haven't listed to all portions of this series. (I don't want any spoilers ; )
Now that I've fallen in love with Ulysses, I'm not getting much else accomplished other that Joyce,Ulysses. Joyce. Ulysses
I watched THE TRIALS OF ULYSSES last week: pretty good. I didn't know about the Campbell lectures on line, so thanks much for that link. I'm currently listening to Ian McKellen reading THE ODYSSEY whenever I'm in my car. Almost finished with that; the Campbell can take its place.Yes: once you start "getting" ULYSSES, it's just about impossible to not become obsessive about it. But then, you were warned.
Bob wrote: "I watched THE TRIALS OF ULYSSES last week: pretty good. I didn't know about the Campbell lectures on line, so thanks much for that link. I'm currently listening to Ian McKellen reading THE ODYSS..."Bob, In Trials of Ulysses it was mentioned that Joyce was inspired (as a youngster?) by Charles Lamb’s childrens book The Adventures of Ulysses. Very interesting. I hope to find Lamb's book online and I'll post the link if I find it.
P.S. I wasn't warned until it was too late, which, I think, .turns out to be a good thing
I apologize if I am too far off subject.Earlier today I posted: When Joyce was young he was inspired and become interested in Ulysses from a children's book written by Charles Lamb, The Adventures of Ulysses. I find this fascinating!! Much to my surprise, this book is still available. wow
The following text is copied from the site: online literature. com: http://www.online-literature.com/lamb...
Charles Lamb wrote this small book in 1808 to tell the tale of Homer's Odyssey to children. It is a wonderfully well-written and accurate account of the story of Ulysses, and modern readers will be surprised at the sentence structure that the early nineteenth century felt was suitable for children. Today it is a good introduction to the verse version for adults as well as children. The year before Lamb wrote this book, he and his sister Mary wrote Tales from Shakespeare in 1807. This is a collection of short-story versions of Shakespeare's plays with some of the dialogue directly from the play. Before World War II, many, many children read Lamb, Bulfinch's Mythology, and Charles Dickens
Phillip wrote: "again, so glad you are so enjoying ULYSSES. as bob (and anthony burgess) says, this is a book of the people, not specifically created for intellectuals. what does burgess say? something like, "joyc..."Thank you for your recommendations on reference / reading guides. Much to my surprise, the local libraries didn't have much in the way of Ulysses reference materials. I've ordered Re-Joyce and will be borrowing, from a friend, The New Bloomsday Book: A Guide Through Ulysses. Meanwhile, Columbia.edu has a guide that is helpful.
The edition of Ulysses that I was given as a gift is the unabridged republication of the original Shakespeare and Co. Intro by Enda Duffy. (surely they meant Edna!) I am certain that it is worth considering 'which' Ulysses edition one reads. Out of curiosity, which edition would you (or others) recommend? If I can find other editions, I might switch mid-stream.
I am grateful for all the posts and info. that you and others have submitted. In addition, I'm finding an abundance of great links to Ulysses, more than there is time for. I'm enjoying my explorations to the max!
Mod
just reading the forward by richard ellman does a great job of capturing how difficult a task it was to bring this book into print. the first edition had countless mistakes - the printers would see a sentence, think the typist got it wrong, and "correct" them ... which meant, what was correct by joyce's standards was altered by printers that thought they knew better.
numerous editions followed, and joyce tried, doggedly, to correct the mistakes. eventually he gave up, as he was getting deeper and deeper into finnegans wake territory.
in the late 70's/early 80's, hans walter gabler assembled a team and they tried to access every known notebook, fragments, etc. from joyce's estate and assemble a text that would finally include all the corrections. i love the edition - really makes it rich and rewarding in cases where sentences were previously just lopped off ... etc.
Phillip, Thank you for this information. It's interesting that, just last night, I was listening to a lecture, given by Gabler: Hans Walter Gabler: “The Segments and the Whole: An Aspect of Joyce’s Art of Construction" http://web.uvic.ca/~mvp1922/ Now, IF I can find (on loan) the Gabler Edition, I'll most certainly pick it up. I'm hoping the Colorado inter-library loan system will find it for me.
Thanks again!
Mod
Phillip wrote: "i really like the "corrected text", which was renamed "the gabler edition" ... originally released by random house in the mid-80's (i think), it sought to take all the corrections from joyce's note..."Yes, agreed. But I think one must also duly mention the debate ensued by John Kidd and the so-called 'Joyce Wars'. As is well known one of the more important points put forward by Kidd in his critique of the Gabler edition (1984) was his 'discovery' of the symbolic pagination of the first edition of 'Ulysses'. For example Kidd points out that the first edition had 732 pages- 2x366 since 1904 was a leap year having 366 days and 366 nights. Interestingly, (as Gerty MacDowell watches) the sun sets in 'Nausicaa' and the chapter ends exactly on page 365. 'Oxen' begins on page 366 signaling night etc. Kidd challenged Gabler's edition on several grounds and was said to have been working on his own edition of 'Ulysses'. But Kidd never came up with his own edition. I think that Gabler's edition (definitive or not) was a pioneering text as it introduced into Joyce scholarship the phenomenon of 'genetic criticism' with its own editorial guidelines- the rejection of a 'copy text' in this case. Jeri Johnson's introduction to the Oxford 1922 text discusses this quite lucidly. Here's a link to Kidd's much publicized article:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi...
A more pragmatic reason for recommending Gabler's text is this: To the best of my knowledge, by far the most exhaustive textual commentary on 'Ulysses' is to be found in Don Gifford's 'Ulysses Annotated'. Gifford's book follows Gabler's text and the two can be read side by side. Penguin's 'Ulysses: Annotated Student Edition' which follows the Bodley Head/Random House edition is also recommended, the notes are useful and the font is large and friendly.
About Enda Duffy. Professor Duffy's book 'The Subaltern Ulysses' is an important study of Joyce's text as a subversive postcolonial novel. Tries to read 'Ulysses' politically with its ambivalence towards Irish nationalism. Again, highly recommended.
P.S. Has anyone here read Danis Rose's 'Ulysses: A Reader's Edition'?
Thanks for helping put Gabler in a better context, Dipanjan. I've been aware of the controversies but they've mostly left me confused. It seems to me that at present there is no "canonical" version of Ulysses, and seemingly there never will be. Personally I read a Random House copy last copyrighted in 1946 by Nora.What do the academics really think of Gabler? This remains unclear to me.
Negative on Duffy and Rose.
Mod
while i think there are some points, as dipanjan has mentioned, that might cause concern, i think they are minor concerns and the advantages far outweigh them.
i would agree, and i believe i mentioned it earlier, that a copy of penguin's annotated edition is a nice thing to have on hand.
i tried to read rose's A READER'S EDITION and couldn't get past the first episode. felt incredibly flat to me.
Phillip wrote: "i have read a lot of the controversy surrounding the gabler edition, thanks for mentioning it - i tend to ignore it when i recommend it - students are first time readers are usually over their head..."I completely agree that for the Gabler edition the advantages far outweigh the drawbacks. Thanks a lot for that feedback on Rose's 'A Reader's Edition', Phillip! Wish I could find it here in Kolkata:(
What I was trying to get at is this: To put it simply, I think the controversy surrounding the Gabler text rose out of disagreements over two very distinct editorial strategies; traditional editing vs genetic criticism. To answer Bob's question about academic consensus about the Gabler edition, I think now that the 'controversy' has largely subsided the response has been overwhelmingly positive. In fact as I have tried to point out elsewhere the new edition of 'Finnegans Wake' is also a genetic text established by Rose and O'Hanlon(see Gabler's essay in Appendix 1). You might want to take a look at the online Joyce journal 'Genetic Joyce Studies', here's the link:
http://www.geneticjoycestudies.org/
I can't help mention two more books I have learned much from: Luca Crispi and Sam Slote editd. "How Joyce Wrote 'Finnegans Wake': A Chapter by Chapter Genetic Guide" and Dirk van Hulle's "Manuscript Genetics: Joyce's Know-How,Beckett's Nohow".
Having said that I think that no 'definitive' future edition can undermine the sheer historical importance of at least the 1922 text, its textual peculiarities which remain its own and above all the extraordinary circumstances that produced the book in the first place. For anyone even remotely interested in textual criticism I strongly recommend D.F. McKenzie's 'Bibliography and the Sociology of Texts' which discusses 'Ulysses'.
Mod
cheers!
Phillip wrote: "great comments, sir - i understand your sentiments completely - i've been too rushed to make meaningful comments here ... i'm way behind with numerous projects ... but i'll put those books on my to..."Cheers!
Dipanjan wrote: "To put it simply, I think the controversy surrounding the Gabler text rose out of disagreements over two very distinct editorial strategies; traditional editing vs genetic criticism....Having said that I think that no 'definitive' future edition can undermine the sheer historical importance of at least the 1922 text, its textual peculiarities which remain its own and above all the extraordinary circumstances that produced the book in the first place...."I am most grateful especially for these sentences, which launched me in quest of the defining distinctions underlying modern thinking about literary analysis, especially genetic criticism. I always cringe at the word "canon," and now I can reorient my own thinking and recouch my own arguments in terms of cladistics. And as a writer I can refocus on approaches to text intended (one hopes) to thwart future critics....
I'm struck (again!) by the protean oddity of the written word as art-form, for surely fewer fingerprints are left by the equivalent of scribes/editors/critics on paintings and sculpture, say, to linger on as curious variants in subsequent independent iterations: one physical object must endure through time. Words aren't like that.
"I'm struck (again!) by the protean oddity of the written word as art-form, for surely fewer fingerprints are left by the equivalent of scribes/editors/critics on paintings and sculpture, say, to linger on as curious variants in subsequent independent iterations: one physical object must endure through time. Words aren't like that."I think this is a very important point that you are raising about the comparative fixity of paintings and sculpture. Haven't thought about it this way.Perhaps one way of thinking about paintings and modernity is via the question of their endless 'reproducibility' through copies and prints.I am reminded of Walter Benjamin's celebrated essay 'The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction' and what Benjamin terms as the loss of 'aura'because of mechanical reproduction.Not sure if sculpture works much the same way though.Thanks a lot for your comments!
Mod
you lose the power of sculpture when you can not walk around the work and view it from all sides. and the size! look at a photograph of the BURGHERS OF CALAIS and then walk around it and see how the figures tower over you ... the same goes with DAVID at the accademia in firenze. there is no way to compare the experiences in these different media.
i think rothko's paintings are the clearest example of how reproduction fails the original with regard to painting. i never understood what the big deal was with rothko until i attended a retrospective in basel and saw about 40 of his works on display ... wow. you can stand there and just fall into those three-dimensional spaces he creates with a single color. you don't get that with a postcard or a print. at. all.
Friends, I am new to James Joyce and I want to start off with Ulysses. My eyesight is failing( not because of reading but obsessive internet browsing) and I would be thankful if you could suggest me an edition of Ulysses( hardcover or paperback) with a nice print, modest font-size, good binding and few errors( Ulysses' editions, I am told,have a reputation for typos and printer devils) that is less taxing for my eyes.Please reply ASAP. It's urgent. Many thanks.
I think the Penguin Annotated Students' Edition would do nicely. The print's large and the text's annotated of course.
Mod
Of course the Gabler edition is the standard choice in most institutions and journals of note. Best if one could find the 3 volume synoptic edition. Immensely influential text- a 'genetic edition' in fact. But one would still have to back it up with Gifford's annotations etc. I guess for a beginner the Penguin edition should suffice. The introduction's by Declan Kiberd who was one of the first to inaugurate an 'Irish turn' in Joyce studies. Read his 'Ulysses and Us' for instance. But 'Inventing Ireland' is a masterpiece!P.S. Nice to hear from you Phillip:-)
Mod
that was 20 years ago and coming back to it now is a delicious experience. i just put aside all i thought i knew about it and just wanted to experience it fresh. it's a lovely experience this time, mostly, i assume, because i'm not under pressure to get anything out of it - just reading the gorgeous prose and enjoying all the various lights going off.
I am deeply grateful to you and Dipanjan (whose erudition and guidance I sorely miss) for your comments in this forum. I read the Penguin Annotated Edition edited by Declan Kiberd once on the advice of Dipanjan, having abandoned it after several painstaking efforts. Actually, I never quite abandoned it for I decided to undertake, quite like you though certainly not in as vast a scale, a study of Joyce's influences and his various references and allusions. I read portions of Iliad translated by Robert Fagles, I am presently reading a preliminary Cambridge text on Greek Alphabet and Grammar that, I am told, would enable me to at least read Xenophon's texts and the Iliad in its Greek original later. Prior to this, I also finished a wonderful Yale course on Dante by Giuseppe Mazzotta aided by Allen Mandelbaum's translation of Divine Comedy. In the meantime, I also abandoned halfway Penguin's rundown of Giambattista Vico's New Science, which, although many consider to have influenced Finnegans' Wake, I feel, makes its presence felt in Ulysses as well. I abandoned a Routledge's introduction of Jacques Derrida, finished Michel Foucault's Madness and Civilisation, a provocative and immensely original work though perhaps not quite helpful in reading Joyce.
Philip, would be so kind as to tell me what texts you consider helpful ( sort of supplementary reading) for Ulysses :-)
Mod
i think i mentioned it above somewhere, or perhaps in another thread, but i think that anthony burgess' book Re:Joyce is a great introduction to lots of themes and sources in all of joyce's writings. check it out. it will lead you to other valuable sources. there is a chapter dedicated to each of the works and the ulysses section is great.
the annotated versions of U are helpful with all the irish references, both to local dublin and the country's rich history. that's what vexes a lot of folks - not knowing who someone like parnell was can leave big holes in your comprehension.
the other standard point of departure for U scholarship is stuart gilbert's study, which was the only one that had joyce as a participant in its creation. worthwhile looking at, no doubt. i think if you can get your hands on those two sources, they will lead you to many others.
finally, i heartily recommend reading hans walter gabler's "corrected" or "the gabler" text of U. if you can get your hands on it, read the introduction, if that doesn't sell it, i certainly can't. highly recommended by this joyce reader.
I would heartily endorse the recommendation of Anthony Burgess' Re.Joyce. Also, I think reading Richard Ellmann's biography of Joyce is well worth doing, to get an insight into the author himself. In addition, I thoroughly recommend Frank Budgen's book about the writing of Ulysses, and The Cambridge Introduction to Ulysses is most helpful, too.
Elizabeth wrote: "I would heartily endorse the recommendation of Anthony Burgess' Re.Joyce. Also, I think reading Richard Ellmann's biography of Joyce is well worth doing, to get an insight into the author himself. ..."I agree, and would add that Ellmann is also superb in his biographies of Wilde and Yeats, and his work on Samuel Beckett. Powerful twentieth century authors, all of them.
Mod
also agree on the ellman bio being a nice gateway into the writer's life and work ... those two are deeply intertwined, although some joyce scholars prefer to separate.
Mod
last night i read OXEN OF THE SUN (holles street maternity hospital episode), and feel i got more out of it than on any other reading.
the language is thorny, perhaps the thorniest of any of the chapters. joyce is experimenting with the development of language and takes it from a kind of proto, early english to street dialogue over the course of 35 pages. all the while, he's telling the story of some rowdy medical students who are getting drunk and disorderly at the maternity hospital while poor mina purefoy is in the throws of a difficult childbirth.
what i really got this time around was the miraculous way that the homer's crew, who stain their existence by eating the sacred oxen, are gently threaded into the medical student's behavior, and the ontology of the fetus mirrors the development of the language. there's also the language itself, which, at times, feels like joyce rehearsing for FINNEGANS WAKE.
anyway, i've read ULYSSES numerous times, and this chapter has always been the one that left me scratching my head. somehow this time around i was connected to the narrative and enjoying the ride.
just goes to show: be patient, keep working on the hard stuff and let the little stuff slide. life will reveal good things.
and now - on to NIGHTTOWN and its hallucinations and bawdy romps! the medical students were just warming up the room!
I continue to be amazed at this book. I am now reading it for the third time and each time I have probably re-read each chapter 2 or 3 times. The structure is awesome. It is like reading the worlds greatest jigsaw puzzle. I am on Sirens now and when I finish this time I am going to re-read it again in about a month with zero helps or commentaries. Just going to bask in the joys of Joyce. God I sound pathetic and spiritual.
Mod
and, as richard ellman says, ULYSSES (re)teaches us to read.
I also have read and reread ULYSSES several times, Fred...each time I am amazed by what I hadn't noticed in previous readings...I'm pretty sure I will be reading it for the rest of my life.A few years ago, I acquired the entire book on CD...I enjoy this on car trips or relaxing at home, just letting it flow through my mind. I'll bet now you can get the book on Mp3.
And I agree with Ellman and you, Phillip...reading Joyce has profoundly changed the way I understand language and the world...it really is an endless read...I guess I would make ULYSSES my pick for the desert island scenario...
I also made a great purchase years ago - the music from the works of James Joyce. It is two cd's with a great irish tenor and pianist. Highly recommend it if only for the Croppy Boy and Seaside Girls.
Mod
on this reading, my first in 20 years, i really felt that. i really felt like perhaps it's time to dig into the music (i'm in the night-town episode now) after this reading, do some additional revisions, and perform and record it again. perhaps bloomsday 2017...
Phillip wrote: "so many fine books in your post - i really liked mandelbaum's translation of dante's la comedia ...i think i mentioned it above somewhere, or perhaps in another thread, but i think that anthony b..."
I'm not a big fan of the Gabler text. For reading, nothing is superior to a '61 Random House paperback, I also like the 2009 Dover reprint of the original '22 Shakespeare + Co.
As far as Introductions go: For the serious minded
Stanley Sultan's Introduction to his masterful: The Argument of ULYSSES is best; and for the general audience a most forthright Introduction may be found in the "fifth edition" of The Norton Anthology of English Lit. (vol.ii).
Perusing your Ulysses thread last night I came across a number of interesting ideas. The one that most caught my fancy was the challenge to reduce each episode to a single sentence. And so as a way of introducing myself I will try my hand at that.(I realize that the trail is rather cold here, but that seems to be a common occurrence when it comes to Ulysses and Good Reads.)
Anyway, to begin, I have a couple/three qualifications I plan to allow myself. I'm just going to use sentences from the text. In the case of Aeolus and Wandering Rocks since the heroes appear separately I will allow myself two sentences. And in the rare case where the author has divided a single thought into two or three short, quick sentences, I will use all.
Telemachus
"As he and others see me."
Nestor
"Croppies lie down."
Proteus
"Touch me. Soft eyes. Soft soft soft hand."
Calypso
"Is she in love with the first fellow all the time?"
Lotus-Eaters
"Do it in the bath."
Hades
"Give us a touch Poldy. God, I'm dying for it."
Aeolus
"We."
"Youth led by Experience visits Notoriety."
Lestrygonians
"Nectar, imagine it drinking electricity: gods' food."
Scylla & Charybdis
"...that queer thing, genius."
Wandering Rocks
"There's a touch of the artist about old Bloom."
"Misery! Misery!"
Sirens
"We two. All looked."
Cyclops
"--I wonder did he ever put it out of sight, says Joe."
Nausicaa
"Up like a rocket, down like a stick."
Oxen of the Sun
"Young Boasthard, and Mr Cautious Calmer."
Circe
"I let him larrup it into me for the fun of it."
"Ah! Lobster and mayonnaise. Ah!"
"Lemur, who are you?"
"Love's bitter mystery."
Eumaeus
"...as if both their minds were travelling, so to speak, in the one train of thought."
Ithaca
"Of what did bellchime and handtouch and footstep and lonechill remind him?"
Penelope
"...we were never the same..."
Fred wrote: "Very well done!!!! Amazing work."Thank you, Fred! Very kind of you to say! I keep trying to fit in somewhere, Joyce wise...I just keep trying. - )
Mod
Perhaps you don't suspect what you're getting yourself into! I live in Tucson, home of the University of Arizona. Hardly a hotbed of Joyce research, but the stacks of Joyce scholarship there go on and on and on: much more than one person could devour in a single lifetime.
You can find quite a few helpful Joyceans on Twitter, hashtags #Ulysses and/or #JamesJoyce.
Also, I was recently alerted to this load of articles online, which should help you get started, or cause you to rethink sinking deeper into this obsessive addiction: http://www.themodernword.com/joyce/jo...
Keep in touch.