The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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What do you want from a book discussion?
Kate Mc. wrote: "What things make you participate in book or poetry discussions? What would you like to see discussed?"
Interesting question! I'm not sure I would rank my top several, but for fiction (nonfiction and poetry are another set of expectations/desires) they include:
-- simple enjoyment in reading a good story well told in rich and interesting language, preferably with at least a soupcon of subtle wit and humor
-- trying to understand the reason the author wrote the book, what he or she was trying to convey about life, and how it might relate to my life and experiences
-- the characters, particularly who they are, what they are going through, how they react to situations, and what if anything they have learned from their experiences
-- experiencing and appreciating a different time and place through the descriptions of life activities (not only of the main characters but also of minor characters), locations, scenery, and historical events
Patrice, that brought to mind this quote which I read and liked a few days ago (Out of context OBTW. I haven't read Proust).
The only true voyage, the only bath in the Fountain of Youth, would be not to visit strange lands but to possess other eyes, to see the universe through the eyes of another, of a hundred others, to see the hundred universes that each of them sees, that each of them is...
---Marcel Proust
Discussion is how we see through others' eyes.
The only true voyage, the only bath in the Fountain of Youth, would be not to visit strange lands but to possess other eyes, to see the universe through the eyes of another, of a hundred others, to see the hundred universes that each of them sees, that each of them is...
---Marcel Proust
Discussion is how we see through others' eyes.
Kate Mc. wrote: "Over on another thread, one member remarked that she would like to see more literary analysis in the book and poetry discussions, with much less diversion off into politics and social commentary. ..."As many authors, particularly the ones of the RR period, were specifically making political points and commenting on the social mores of their day I am not sure how you can analyse some novels without touching on these subjects. Dickens, for instance, left his journalist job on Hansard to write novels which drew attention to the social evils of his day because he thought he could influence more people this way. He wanted these things discussed. Hardy was concerned with the plight of 'fallen women' and how Victorian society treated them. Mrs Gaskell wrote at length on the industrial relations of her time, of the emerging trade unions and the role of women in them. One of the few 'respectable' ways in which women could draw attention to the 'Woman Question' which concerned them was to write novels. We are currently reading Dosteovsky, who was greatly exercised about the advent of socialism and its affect on the Russian religious life. He wrote reams about these matters in all of his novels. How can we analyse him and yet ignore them?
Discussions often veer off into religion at great length and although I am an atheist I go along with that because it is often pertinent to what we are reading. I hate discussions on 'lurv' interest but go along with those too. Discussions on politics/social history, in which I have a lifetime interest, are often criticised but discussions on religion and 'lurv' never are:(.
I think we need to be careful of criticising the 'diversions' of others because, as Patrice has commented, 'each person's truth contributes to the whole' and, yes, people read the same book differently. We also learn a great deal from the contributions of others, whatever they are. I know I have learned a great deal about American politics and religious observance since I started discussing books online.
I first come to a work as a casual reader. I like a good, well written yarn and I like to amuse myself when passing time. I've never before discussed a book in a group before so I've no idea what to look for.
Likewise poetry. I like what I like - wit and satire.
Kate Mc. wrote: "Discussion is how we see through others' eyes."And for those of us who can no longer travel without considerable hardship, literature is our way of visiting distant places, meeting the local people, seeing the sights, experiencing the culture, touching on the history, etc. A great author takes me there and shows me life more effectively than I could see it if I were actually there myself.
That's a great way of putting it Everyman!
It also has to be borne in mind that in many novels the political implications may not be clear to all readers, particularly if they apply to another country. I am sure I would not recognise the political implications in Huckleberry Finn for instance. When I first read Paradise Lost online (elsewhere) none of the American participants were aware of the politics about the Civil War in 17C England which Milton inserted into what seems to be, on the surface, a purely religious epic. When discussing North and South (again, elsewhere) Mr Hale's actions can only be understood in the light of the split between the CofE and the Nonconformists, and the very controversial politics involved in the Oxford Movement, all of which may have to be explained to non-Brits. Similarly, as an atheist, I may not see the religious symbolism in many novels of the Victorian period until they are explained to me by those well versed in religious doctrine or the scriptures. I have found the contributions of catholics here very valuable in our TBK discussion, even though I might disagree with their philosophy. I remember too that a reader from Indonesia contributed several valuable insights about Islam to one of our readings. This is the real value of these international discussions and we should not therefore dismiss any p.o.v.lightly, because it may constitute real insight to someone other than ourselves.
Most Brits would be in as much ignorance as other people with regards to Victorian literature or the nicety of Religious conformity before, during or after the Reformation (includiing the doctrine of the Church of England during the Commoneealth). They would need a degree in history,and/or religion to do so. Schools only touch uoon these things lightly which most people forget as soon as their schooldays are over if not before.
I would second Everyman's thoughts about why he reads, although I'd perhaps order them a bit differently. Learning about other times and places through good literature is enormously rewarding.I also agree with Madge that we can get far more out of books if we can have at least some background knowledge of the politics, social mores, and religious issues that are pertinent to the timeframe of the book in question. For example, an understanding of slavery in the U.S. and the fugitive slave law is crucial to an understanding of Huckelberry Finn, because Twain uses them as major plot and character drivers, even though he wrote the book after the U.S. Civil War. So I'm grateful for and encouraged by that sort of background information; another example would be the British Civil War background to Paradise Lost. Before that book was discussed in depth, my knowledge of how the B.C.W. effected Milton's was work was sketchy at best, derived from long-ago classes. To cite less weighty literature, Trollope's Barchester series is almost meaningless if one is not familiar with the C.of E. versus Nonconformists versus the Oxford Movement.
I'll give a really simple example of how a reader can be confused: as a child, I had a very hard time trying to figure out why Huck Finn was revealed to be a boy in a girl's dress partly because when something was tossed to him, he clapped his legs together to catch it in his lap, where a girl would have done the opposite. It was some time before I decoded that into the fact that girls wore only dresses at the time, and boys wore pants.
No one's p.o.v. can or should be dismissed, I don't think, since a p.o.v. is by definition an individual's idea. I do however, think an individual should be able to support his/her view with textual evidence...that is, directly from the book being studied, not from a secondary source. Thus if a reader has a political or relgious epiphany while reading a book, I'd want to see that expressed and discussed, but with it I'd like to see the text that inspired the said epiphany.
And I'll freely betray my ignorance: I'm not sure what "lurv interest" means. Romantic love in a book in question? If so, then that would apply to, for instance, Middlemarch, or Pride and Prejudice, or quite a bit of Hardy's work, such as Jude the Obscure.
And now you've really got me curious, Patrice: what do you usually read?
Patrice wrote: "I had started War and Peace about 5 times, each time promising myself to finish by the end of the summer. I liked it and yet by page 100, I'd give up. This spring we'll be reading it and I'll finally know what happens after page 100...."I started War and Peace three times, but when I finally finished it, I thought it was the best novel I had ever read.
You might want to try the unabridged audio book (I got it from OverDrive through our library), or the movie (YouTube link) first, just so you know what happens after page 100.
I do however, think an individual should be able to support his/her view with textual evidence...that is, directly from the book being studied, not from a secondary source.There has been a great deal of this done in both of the RR discussions, as well as secondary sources being given. Most of us in both the Adam Bede and TBK reads have quoted at length. I often do both because I am used to having to back up my work with secondary sources, so they are a habit with me.
I'm not sure what "lurv interest" means. Romantic love in a book in question?
Yes, I do not like romantic fiction and I certainly would not put those books in that category although they can, of course, be read for their love interest alone. (Just as I can read them for politics alone!) I am interested in other aspects of Victorian/Edwardian novels, such as the social history, the 'Woman Question', and in Hardy's case in particular, the sheer poetic beauty of the writing and his descriptions of the countryside I know so well. I much prefer his broad brush to Austen's fine one. Who loves whom and who marries whom does not interest me because I look more at the broad scheme of things, not at the everyday niceties. My preference entirely and surely as valid as any other. I have also read many of the classics and so already know who ends up loving and marrying whom.
I read most books with half an eye to what they can tell me about the present time and how I can learn from them. One of the great benefits of the Western Canon is that the authors are all 'standing on the shoulders of giants'. What they wrote of their time is informed by what went before and will inform what comes afterwards. This makes many of these works pertinent to our time and therefore worthy of discussing in that context because we can learn from them. Dostoevsky is pertinent to our own time, to McArthyism, to the Cold War, to the Tea Party fears - he still speaks to us if we care to listen, even though he is IMO a miserable old so-and-so, worthy of a part in the TV series 'Grumpy Old Men'!:) Similarly, as we struggle with feminism and post-feminism, Hardy, Eliot, Gaskell et al still have things to tell us about some of the difficulties women have to face. Again, the problems we face with fundamental religion today has a great deal in common with both the Civil War period (which we don't cover in RR) and the later split between the CofE and the Non-conformists, as we saw in Adam Bede. If scenes from these novels remind us of present day events I do not believe we should dismiss those thoughts or recommend that folks should not post about them. Religious people here have been very moved by TBK's relevance to their lives and I am pleased that they have been able to express this because it gave me greater insight into Dostoevsky's ongoing appeal. Similarly, their modern views on his anti-socialist, anti-Enlightenment stance have informed me.
So, to get back to the point of this thread, what I want from a book discussion is much the same as what we have had here, apart from the very small hiccup on one poetry thread. Poems have not been much discussed but both the book discussions have IMO been very rewarding and I thank everyone for their contributions. My only complaint is that I would like to see more participation and less lurking! I would also like those who successfully nominate books, poems and short stories to take an active part in and help to drive along the subsequent discussions. And I hope those who are calling for more analysis will lurk less and put in their two-pennorth more.
Patrice, that must have been an enlightening class, where one could compare/contrast/disect the old and new testaments and the koran. Most interesting. I;d love to take that one!I'd recommend a biography to you: Traitor to His Class: The Privileged Life and Radical Presidency of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, by Brand. Another choice might be The Autobiography of Roy Cohn by Sidney Zion. Both are excellent.
Just to be quite clear, I didn't mean to imply that any of the books I cited in post 12 are romantic novels nor did I mean to say that the romantic element in any of the books is the most important part. What I did mean to say is that romantic love plays a part in those books and needs to be considered when discussing the books as a whole.
I'd never would of dreamed of reading the first American international best-seller Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin if it hadn't been that I bought an Oxford University Press edition with an introduction and explanatory notes to give context and perspective. I read it for its story not for its politics. I never read novels for their politics but because I enjoy a good yarn when I read a book to relax with.
Malcolm wrote: "I've never before discussed a book in a group before so I've no idea ..."Didn't you discuss books in school?
There have been books that I don't understand, and re-reading with a group gives me better understanding. I'm also reading some books that I otherwise wouldn't have read, because I know I can ask for help.
Gail wrote: I didn't mean to imply that any of the books I cited in post 12 are romantic novels nor did I mean to say.."I realised that:).
..romantic love plays a part in those books and needs to be considered when discussing the books as a whole.
I just let others do the love bits:D.
Something I meant to say in message 16 was that when myself, Chris and others started this group in September, we specifically encouraged the use of secondary sources, links etc as an aid to in depth analysis and background information.
Rochelle wrote: ...I'm also reading some books that I otherwise wouldn't have read, because I know I can ask f..."Yes, this group has cost me a fortune!!!
Patrice wrote: "5 years ago I joined a continuing education program because there were so many books I wanted to read......Now when I try to read something "fluffy" to get to sleep, I find I'm bored. I've gotten used to the good stuff. Winter break is coming up and I am truly worn out from reading Brothers Karamazov and would love something totally different."Great post Patrice - what a wonderfully productive journey you have had and what a pity that all schoolchildren aren't encouraged in this way.
I too hope that we choose something 'lighter' (and less political and/or religious!) than TBK for our next read. Something quite humorous would be nice. I hope those who haven't followed our exhausting journey in TBK will think of this when they are nominating for our next read and take pity on us!:).
Rochelle wrote: "Malcolm wrote: "I've never before discussed a book in a group before so I've no idea ..."Didn't you discuss books in school?"
No, we listened quietly to what our teachers told us.
Rochelle wrote: "Malcolm wrote: "I've never before discussed a book in a group before so I've no idea ..."Didn't you discuss books in school?"
Besides there's a vast difference between school study and a book reading group for adults.
At school we had to read what we were told to read. As an adult you have the choice to read or not to read and to read what interests you most. It's a question of personal taste amongst other factors, I suppose.
Rochelle wrote: Didn't you discuss books in school?"I think this depends a lot on which school you went to. I went to an old-fashioned grammar school where a lot of classic books and poems were read, discussed and sometimes acted out, as a class activity. Those books were always chosen by the teacher but my grand-daughter went to a school where they chose which books to read as a class from a list of what was on the National Curriculum. I remember her class chose 'Catcher in the Rye' during one GCSE term and 'The Taming of the Shrew' in another. She also read Jekyll and Hyde and wrote a prizewinning essay on that, which included an analysis of schizophrenia! George Bernard Shaw was the playwright on their Lit syllabus one year. At the A level stage the English teacher decided on which group of books from the National Curriculum they were to study and my grand-daughter chose Paradise Lost as one of them because the English Civil War was on her history syllabus. As she had already read an 'American Dream' novel for her GCSE, she then chose Brideshead Revisited for her A level year, along with The Color Purple. She knows far more about American literature than I do! Right now she is in her first year at Uni studying Marxist geography as part of her course in Politics and World Development (!) and my younger granddaughter, at another school, has 'done' Chaucer and is embarking upon a class study of A Midsummer Night's Dream but reading the Twilight books in her spare time, much to the horror of her mother:).
I also find there is a difference between the education of my three 'country' grandchildren and my three 'townies', despite the confines of the National Curriculum.
Is there any choice about reading in American schools nowadays Rochelle? And a difference between states/regions? I rather think times have changed both sides of the Pond.
Rochelle wrote: "Malcolm wrote: "I've never before discussed a book in a group before so I've no idea ..."Didn't you discuss books in school?"
Class discussions at school went along the lines of 'Hey, Mark, if you were married to Cathy Earnshaw would you give her something to moan about or just divorce her?'
RE 22: I just let others do the love bits: well, that's fair, certainly. ;)About education in general and literature education in particular here in the U.S., there are such huge differences not only between states but between individual school districts within states, that absolutely no generalizations can be made, I believe.
We used to nod seriously when being told "what to teach", made sure we met the requirements, and then shut our classroom doors and got down to the real business of educating the kids to be informed citizens who could think and research for themselves.
Gail wrote: "RE 22: I just let others do the love bits: well, that's fair, certainly. ;)About education in general and literature education in particular here in the U.S., there are such huge differences no..."
Are there not certain books on the curriculum which your youngsters have to read for exam purposes? I was talking about reading for school examinations sat between 16-18, not general reading. Don't youngsters sitting for your High School Diploma study certain books which are on the annual syllabus for that curriculum? Researching around the books on the syllabus is, of course, what our students are encouraged to do too.
MadgeUK wrote: "Gail wrote: "RE 22: I just let others do the love bits: well, that's fair, certainly. ;)
About education in general and literature education in particular here in the U.S., there are such huge dif..."
There isn't a standard syllabus Madge, if that's your question. It all varies state to state and school district to school district. Even the testing is not standardized on a national level, nor are HS graduation requirements.
About education in general and literature education in particular here in the U.S., there are such huge dif..."
There isn't a standard syllabus Madge, if that's your question. It all varies state to state and school district to school district. Even the testing is not standardized on a national level, nor are HS graduation requirements.
Advanced Placement Courses, which are available in our high schools nationwide, do have more or less set curricula. These courses, however, are designed for the upper level of students. If they achieve a certain score,they can be exempt from college classes (introductory level). But there is no syllabus that I'm aware of. Our testing is very different and doesn't correspond or compare well with other nations. IMO.
MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, this group has cost me a fortune!!!"I buy only used paperbacks :D
Patrice (and anyone else) did you see Salman Rushdie this week-end on Book TV? An amazingly cosmopolitan,urbane, witty and interesting man.
Rochelle wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Yes, this group has cost me a fortune!!!"I buy only used paperbacks :D"
So do I but it still costs me a fortune:).
LOL, are you buying more than you intend to read?
No, generally I buy and read immediately. I do not really have a TBR list, except for one in my head. What I mean is that I spend far too much of my pension on books and that seems like a fortune!
Given the choice of cat food or books, what would you buy? :D
Definitely catfood because Cleo might die for the want of it but I would not die for the want of books, essential though they are:).
MadgeUK wrote: "Definitely catfood because Cleo might die for the want of it but I would not die for the want of books, essential though they are:).":D
OK, how about YOUR food vs. books?
Oops, I'm way OT. Will meet you at the cafe.
Gail--There's an interview with Rushdie here. This is a great collection.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/spe...
You don't have to be a techie to find bbc.co.uk. Have fun.
Good gravy, Girl, what a find!! Now I'll never be off the internet!And you weren't too, too far off topic. Erasmus said, "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes."
And Madge is right, of course: she can re-read a book, but Cleo can't re-eat her food.
Gail wrote: "And you weren't too, too far off topic. Erasmus said, "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes."And Madge is right, of course: she can re-read a book, but Cleo can't re-eat her food. "
:D (Giant guffaws)I was thinking of that quote.
I don't suppose you noticed this thread, posted by Santa Paws on Nov. 11?
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...
I remember being extremely broke some years ago, and I went into a bookstore and spent the remainder of what was in my wallet on a book.
Let's see, how to get cats to re-eat their food... Well, dogs sometimes do it...
I missed that one, Rochelle. Sometimes my R.L. grossly interferes with the actual brain activity I have (what little there is of it) here on the computer. So my posts and sometimes my reading of others' posts can be intermittent.
Ha, ha. I posted it just now also in "Focus on Our Authors." I love that site because, not counting classics, I usually read books that are 5-20 years old, rather than when they were bestsellers. So I found conversations on Remains of the Day, Atonement, The Time Travelers's Wife, , etc. But you must explore the BBC site further. They have stories, poetry and all sorts of stuff that you find here only on NPR.
You owe me one, Gail, preferably a batch of oatmeal cookies, extra chewy. Cookies are often used as currency at this site, and especially in this group.
Rochelle wrote: "Ha, ha. I posted it just now also in "Focus on Our Authors." I love that site because, not counting classics, I usually read books that are 5-20 years old, rather than when they were bestsellers...."The BBC World Service repeats quite few programmes from the excellent BBC Radio 4 most of which is available online. Click around this site and you will find some gems! I sometimes think that listening regularly to it is the equivalent of getting a university education!:)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/
I presume I will now be making the thick cookies for the two of you. Do you like raisins/currants in them? If oatmeal doesn't suit, perhaps chocolate chip or shortbread will do in a pinch?
Low fat and sugar for this diabetic please, especially as Xmas is coming up!:)
This got me thinking about why we read books and what different truths we find in them, what aspects of books make us want to share and discuss ideas.
I know that I usually connect with a fictional book in the following order: Theme, Plot, Character, Setting. And what interests me in "theme" is often how it echoes historically and how it relates personally. Conversations that head that way are often ones I contribute to. OTOH, I'll usually pass on discussions related to description, motifs, or imagery although I find them interesting to read.
What things make you participate in book or poetry discussions? What would you like to see discussed?