Dorothy Dunnett fans discussion
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What else are you reading?
What else are you reading? Well, Lymond again!Together with another person in the All About Books group we are planning a Lymond re-readalong in 2014.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Anybody cares to join us??
Mod
Together with another person in the All About Books group we are planning a Lymond re-readalong in 2014.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"
Nice!
Elisa wrote: "What else are you reading? Well, Lymond again!Together with another person in the All About Books group we are planning a Lymond re-readalong in 2014.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"
Ah... so tempting, Elisa! And yet can I allow Lymond to swallow up my life for the second time in eighteen months? *Thinks about it* Hmm. I may very well be tempted. :-)
I haven't read these yet, so this is tempting... :)
I've found that for me nothing else quite fills the DD spot. However, for detailed political plots, excellent historical flavor and intricate relationship issues, I'd suggest anything by M. M. Kaye. Several of her stories take place in British colonial India.
Has anyone tried Sarah Dunant? Incredibly well written, meticulously researched books about the mediaeval period.
Her focus tends to be on the lives of sting women, and her latest on The Borgias is mesmerising.
I am currently coming to the end of "Sacred Hearts", set in an Italian convent in the 15th Century. Intricate, intriguing and every bit as full of (admittedly female) derring do as DDs books.
Mod
Oops! Should be 'strong women'.However, once you get to know them, sting women works just as well!!
Thank you for noticing.
Christine
Mod
However, once you get to know them, sting women works just as well!!
Thank you for noticing.
Christine"
Oh, that makes more sense. Thanks.
Another recommendation for all you DD fans out there is the Star Cross'd series by David Blixt, beginning with Master of Verona. The books take place in Verona in the early 14th century and weave in historical and Shakespearean characters (think Dante, Romeo & Juliet, Cangrande della Scalla). One of the main characters, Cesco, resembles a young Lymond but you won't meet him until book two - he's worth the wait.
I am interested in rereading Lymond, and would like to know joe it will work.Thanks,
Christine x
Elisa wrote: "What else are you reading? Well, Lymond again!Together with another person in the All About Books group we are planning a Lymond re-readalong in 2014.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/......"
I'd love to join you too.
Hi everyone! First of all I hope you all had a lovely Christmas, and that your year end+beginninng will be nice as well.For me the beginning of 2014 will be great because I'll start re-reading Lymond :-)
We are quite a merry bunch of fanatics and newbies embarking in this task and we will discuss Francis' doings here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Feel free to join at any point in the discussion, even if you are not re-reading the series!
Mod
For me the beginning of 2014 will be great because I'll start re-reading Ly..."
Cool! Welcome and thanks for providing the link.
Elisa wrote: "We are quite a merry bunch of fanatics and newbies embarking in this task and we will discuss Francis' doings here:https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Feel free to join at any point in the discussion, even if you are not re-reading the series!"
Elisa, I have some questions regarding how you typically handle discussion there.
I looked around and didn't see any kind of schedule but without one how do you avoid spoilers while you discuss? From what I could tell, it seems as though people simply post general impressions of the book mostly after they've finished, which doesn't seem like a lot of discussion to me. I'm not trying to be critical, I realize what works for one group doesn't necessarily work for another, but I am wondering how your discussions are set up? And whether it will work for some of us who are used to in-depth discussion as we read?
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Feel free to join at any..."
It's not been consistent in this group, and I agree that in dept discussions are few and far between, but my suggestion has always been to create 'spoilers' and 'no spoilers' threads.
In my opinion the Outlander books are pretty much soft porn. Dunnett is literature.
Mod
I agree.
I've read all of the Outlander books, but they do not compare to the Lymond Chronicles (which I'm re-reading for the 2nd time this year.) ;-)
Laura wrote: "Mary Renault"Mary Renault is wonderful. Different from Dunnett, but splendid, wonderfully written, and moving.
Just had to recommend this one to the group: the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik (starting with His Majesty's Dragon). It's set in an alternate Napoleonic-era history in which there is a fighting aerial dragon(!) force. Splendid alternate historical fiction/fantasy with a wonderful cast of sympathetic characters, and the writing often reminded me of the Lymond Chronicles.
Shadowphoenixfire wrote: "Just had to recommend this one to the group: the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik (starting with His Majesty's Dragon). It's set in an alternate Napoleonic-era history in ..."Oh, do read Patrick O'Brien instead. The real Napoleonic Wars and no errors in the sailing department. I've always thought of him as the male Jane Austen, with guns and spies... (And honestly, if you think about it, why do the dragons put up with the humans?)
Mackay wrote: "Shadowphoenixfire wrote: "Just had to recommend this one to the group: the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik (starting with His Majesty's Dragon). It's set in an alternate ..."Oh, thank you for the recommendation! I will put him on the list to read after I've finished this series!
That's the problem with Dunnett - she rather ruins you for any future mediocre historical fiction you might read. Agreed on Mary Renault - the calibre of her writing is tremendous and I've always had a 'thing' for Alexander. I'll read Sharon Penman (which I categorise more in the historical romance category) and particularly enjoyed her Welsh series about Llewelyn The Great. Stephen Pressfield's Greek books are well researched and written and Geraldine Brooks is a very different style again. But there's nothing like Lymond for me - so pleased I'm revisiting them right now after a very long time away.
Oh - I forget Anya Seton. Unfashionable now, I suspect, but when she's good, like "Katherine" she's very good .. and some of the more modern stories I've found simply dreadful.
Jo wrote: "That's the problem with Dunnett - she rather ruins you for any future mediocre historical fiction you might read. Agreed on Mary Renault - the calibre of her writing is tremendous and I've always h..."I agree, love Mary Renault and also I agree about Sharon Penman and the Welsh series. Very enjoyable. Good portrait of King John too, I thought. I have also very much enjoyed Elizabeth Chadwick (the British author not the American EC), in particular the William Marshall books. I think she writes very accessibly, quite like Sharon Penman.
Thanks for the recommendation Diana - I've had the Elizabeth Chadwick books on my e-reader for ages and not read any yet. I will bump them further up the list. I'm sure I visited Sir William's gravesite (or at least memorial) at Temple Church in London and you can't read anything Plantagenet-related without admiring Marshall.
Dorothy Dunnett does set a very high bar. Rereading either of her series usually outdoes reading anyone else for the first time. Dame D is my ABSOLUTE favorite, and yes, after finishing a bout with her, I am ruined for anyone else in this genre.Hard to tell Chadwick and Penman apart, but they certainly don't have Dame Dunnett's fine eye for detail, and wicked turn of phrase.
Temeraire is fun, but is hardlly historical fiction. Not even in the discussion.
Patrick O'Brien is supposed to be top of his game, but I've tried again and again, and just can't get into them.
Mary Renault, IMO, doesn't hold up (from adolescent love to second half of my century now). And Anya Seton doesn't do it for me at all.
So here's some fun alternatives:
1. The Religion - Willocks - history is good (Siege of Malta- a few years after DD's Disorderly Knights), and characters, though not Lymond or Niccolo deep, are terrific and villians are as good as Graham and Simon.
2. Long Ships - Bengsten - history reasonable insofar as whatever Vikings were up to, and hypochondriac Vikings are very funny.
3. The Bruce Trilogy - Trantor - gets a bit long, but very good.
4. Do not dismiss Georgette Heyer. You can learn a good bit about Regency England in these delightful stories. Looking up the clothes and barouches (etc etc) is entertaining.
5. And a slightly off recommendation which I don't see anywhere here - Guy Gavriel Kay writes alternate history - much better than Novik's Temeraire. GGK's history is pretty accurate actually - but he veers enough so that he can put you in the head of, say, El Cid, rather than creating a person watching El Cid. He's done some AMAZING books - El Cid in Iberia (Lions of Al Rassan), Vikings (Last Light of the Sun), Song Dynasty (River of Stars). I'm very much looking forward to his forthcoming one on renaissance Europe (Children of Earth and SKy). His books will keep you on the internet checking history. Really an amazing sensibility and delicate, but punishing anyway, touch.
Diana wrote: " . . . I agree about Sharon Penman and the Welsh series. Very enjoyable. Good portrait of King John too, I thought."I read Here Be Dragons right around the time I was also reading Barbara Erskine's Lady of Hay and Susan Howatch's Penmarric. It occurred to me only toward the end that I had been reading a book with a character more or less patterned on King John, one with a character who was evidently a reincarnation of King John, and one in which a character was King John. Both Howatch and Penman present a more historically accurate (and more sympathetic toward John) picture of the fate of Prince Arthur than I acquired in my teens, and Penman actually manages to make John heroic in that episode. Strongly recommend it! Howatch's 20th century John, called Jan Yves, is also quite sympathetic, and Hay's novel, near the end, has another character ask a question that made me laugh out loud. (And Penman has her main character make an admission about John that made me smile with recognition.) So read on!
Mackay wrote: "Oh, do read Patrick O'Brien instead. The real Napoleonic Wars and no errors in the sailing department." A male colleague told me about the Patrick O'Brien series, which made me think of Horatio Hornblower, and then I forgot the author's name and stumbled across Bernard Cornwell by mistake--but instead of reading (listening to, actually) his Napoleonic series, I started the King Alfred one. My husband and I found the main character so awful that we gave up in the middle of the second volume!
jrendocrine wrote: "Dorothy Dunnett does set a very high bar. Rereading either of her series usually outdoes reading anyone else for the first time. Dame D is my ABSOLUTE favorite, and yes, after finishing a bout with..."jrendocrine - I absolutely agree about Guy Gavriel Kay. I loved River of Stars and Under Heaven.
I'm sorry you didn't enjoy Patrick O'Brien, jrendocrine. MaryC, please do give POB himself a chance. I find him exceedingly funny generally and then surprisingly moving at certain points.
I also agree about the Temeraire series, but they are definitely fun for what they are!
Hilary Mantel, to me, best carries on in DD's tradition of making you feel like you are right there with a real person. Sadly, I'm beginning to wonder if the third Wolf Hall book is ever coming out.
I've just finished "Story of Land and Sea" by Katy Simpson Smith, which has some excellent historical details and gets a historical mindset very well, I think. The story is very bleak in general, although I found a hopeful note at the end that some critics seem to have discounted (or missed).
Thanks for the recommendations. I have been missing some good Historical Fiction.I liked Willoks, "The Religion." Ultra violent and great charac.
No one Mentioned Bernard Cornwall. His King Arthur Series is amazing. Great speculative, historialized (is that a word?), version of Arthur. His Agincourt is a also a great one off. And his Richard Shape series is excellent for Napoleonic fans.
"The Serpent and the Moon." by Princess Michael of Kent, is a great version of the Love triangle between Katherine DeMedici, Henry and Diane de Poitiers.
Patrick O'Brien is excellent, but his sailing jargon and technical understanding of sailing gets long for me.
IF you can find them, four xcellent books by Dudley Pope are, Buccaneer, Admiral, Galleon, and Corsair. Called, collectively, the Yorke series. Takes place in the 1650's, during the time of Cromwell's England, Yet set in the waters of Barbados and the surrounding islands. A different perspective on this troubling time, plus a fun adventure. I have not Read his Ramage series but I hear they are good as well (more Napoleonic era stuff).
Dame Dunnet is still the reigning Queen, as far as I am concerned but these are some good reads as well. Enjoy.
Guy Gavriel Kay is, himself, a Dunnett fan, and if you look carefully you can see a bit of her influence in his work. He also is a huge aficionado of Chinese poetry and other things - and those grant his work a richness well worth a look.Another fantasy author who is a Dunnett fan is Ellen Kushner. She wrote Swordspoint, and a sequel, with a lavish flair - she has a background in radio and drama, and is currently immersed in a serial, Tremontaine.
The charm of the Patrick O'Brien books is not really the history or the naval research (he actually was no sailor, and believe it or not that shows.) Many people dig in to these books with the wrong insight - they are not truly action stories - what drives their charm is the relationships between the very quirky characters; the humor is subtle, and the odd contrasts and strange turns of their friendships is the core of the story. So if you try these with the understanding that you are reading a very subtle character study and interaction, then you will discover the charm.
Yes POB fans, someday I will manage to get on the train and stay on. And yes of course Mantel, and I know she'll finish what she started, we'll have to see Cromwell to the end.
Other recommendations here just great. One I have for die hard Dunnetts is to listen to them-- most Niccolo are 3.99 Whispersync. Pretty great for 28 h listening while driving to work!
Michael, did you mean Bernard Cornwell's King Alfred series, or does he have another one about Arthur? We started the Alfred series on audio but got disgusted and gave up about halfway through the second volume when Uhtred accepted payment from a Cornish king to fight attacking Vikings for him and then joined forces with the attackers and killed the king who had paid him.
jrendocrine, what do you think of the narrator for the Niccolo audiobooks? I tried the Lymond audiobooks and simply couldn't bear the narrator for the series, so promptly gave it up as a lost cause.
MaryC wrote: "Michael, did you mean Bernard Cornwell's King Alfred series, or does he have another one about Arthur? We started the Alfred series on audio but got disgusted and gave up about halfway through the ..."You are thinking of the Last Kingdom (now a series on BBC America). This is called the Warlord Series. Beginning with, "The Winter King," "Enemy of God," and finally "Excaliber: a novel of Arthur.
Michael, do you mean that the Arthur series is called the Warlord series? Are the characters as brutal and unprincipled as Uhtred?
MaryC wrote: "Michael, do you mean that the Arthur series is called the Warlord series? Are the characters as brutal and unprincipled as Uhtred?"The Arthur series is The Warlord Series. The characters are diverse, and show many shades of gray. All flawed, making many mistakes along the way.
Eileen wrote: "jrendocrine, what do you think of the narrator for the Niccolo audiobooks? I tried the Lymond audiobooks and simply couldn't bear the narrator for the series, so promptly gave it up as a lost cause."I agree, Eileen. The Audible narrator for the Lymond chronicles get tiresome, quickly. Does great accents but is very...one note. Have not tried the Nicollo series on audible.
Eileen wrote: "jrendocrine, what do you think of the narrator for the Niccolo audiobooks?"I think the narrator for Niccolo is fantastic! I have heard 6 of them so far, with other books in between on drives (Knausgaard!) Other family members (we are a Niccolo kind of family) have also listened, and love.
I haven't listened to any of Lymond. Probably because best to read Lymond on hand held so I can search for medieval french poetry translations, etc.
Michael wrote: "Eileen wrote: "jrendocrine, what do you think of the narrator for the Niccolo audiobooks? I tried the Lymond audiobooks and simply couldn't bear the narrator for the series, so promptly gave it up ..."Did you get beyond Game of Kings in the Audible format? The narrator for the rest of the series is much better than the awful narrator of GoK who makes Lymond sound like an 18th c fop.
Eileen wrote: "jrendocrine, what do you think of the narrator for the Niccolo audiobooks? I tried the Lymond audiobooks and simply couldn't bear the narrator for the series, so promptly gave it up as a lost cause."You're right, the narrator of the first volume, GoK, is terrible! So skip that one, just read it on paper or ebook. But after you've read that one, the rest of the audiobooks are excellent, narrated by Andrew Napier. He sounds just like my imagining of a young well born 16th century Scottish gentleman.
P.E. wrote: Did you get beyond Game of Kings in the Audible format? The narrator for the rest of the series is much better than the awful narrator of GoK who makes Lymond sound like an 18th c fop. Mary wrote: You're right, the narrator of the first volume, GoK, is terrible! So skip that one, just read it on paper or ebook. But after you've read that one, the rest of the audiobooks are excellent, narrated by Andrew Napier. He sounds just like my imagining of a young well born 16th century Scottish gentleman.
Well, I'm glad there's a consensus on the GoK narrator! I did actually try multiple volumes in audiobook format, but Andrew Napier wasn't quite to my taste, either. I was only listening to samples, but I thought it was telling when I couldn't bear to listen to a five minute sample, so I didn't buy/borrow any of them.
If we don't get a film or television adaptation of some kind in the next few years (say, 5-10) perhaps there will be a new set of audiobooks! Ideally multi-cast, read by actors young and old enough to pull off the wide variety of characters DD gifted us. That's my hope, anyway.
I think we'll need a new generation of readers or a huge resurgence of us older ones convincing others to read them. I've converted 5 or 6 people over the last 40 years.
jrendocrine wrote: "Dorothy Dunnett does set a very high bar. Rereading either of her series usually outdoes reading anyone else for the first time. Dame D is my ABSOLUTE favorite, and yes, after finishing a bout with..."Thanks so much for these recommendations. I've bookmarked them and will hunt them down when I finish my current Lymond re-read. The Religion sounds really interesting. I've read that that DD was a Nigel Tranter fan and I knew that GGKay refereced her as an influence too. I do love Heyer and was so impressed when a chap in a second-hand bookstore recommended Jane Austen and Heyer to my god-daughter who's reading well beyond her years!
Dorothy Dunnett fans
Books mentioned in this topic
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I especially look forward to checking out The Thief by Megan Whalen Turner, The Religion by Tom Willocks, The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell, the Lord Peter Wimsey series by Dorothy L. Sayers, and the novels by Elizabeth Peters. I'd seen Elizabeth Peters recommended for people who liked the Mary Russell and Sherlock Holmes series by Laurie R. King (which is good but not close to Dorothy Dunnett's writing), so it's nice to see her recommended again.