"Word for World Is Forest" Full Discussion *spoilers*

[Brad]

LeGuin seems to be tackling the ugly side of humanism that leads humanity to occassional atrocities. How far do you think she is taking this criticism? Is it too far? Not far enough? What do characters like Captain Davidson and Selver add to LeGuin's argument?

[[deleted user]]

Davidson is such a villainous caricature that at times he seemed but a second or two away from twirling his moustache and giving off an evil cackle.

He was cartoonishly extreme and almost unbelievably misogynistic, self-centered and racist/speciesist(?).

I'd almost say he ruined the book, but the overall preachiness of the entire thing was a turn off as well.

[Silvio]

Sorry - I don't think I understand what "humanism" means in this context.

This book makes a good comparison with The Lathe of Heaven, which I think Le Guin wrote about the same time. Dr. Haber is a lot like Davidson but my opinion more nuanced.

[Brad]

I was using it here in the broadest way, which informs in some way all of its more specific meanings, a sense in which "humans" inherently come first in "humanism," thereby allowing humans, or individuals, to justify all manner of atrocities because "they" are inhuman or simply not human.

I see the links with Lathe of Heaven too, Silvio. Interesting that you mention that.

[Brad]

Ala wrote: "Davidson ... was cartoonishly extreme and almost unbelievably misogynistic, self-centered and racist/speciesist(?)...."

I didn't have as much trouble with this as you did, Ala, but that could be because I know one person who is very similar to Davidson (quite literally), and a couple of others who I could see go the way of Davidson under the right circumstances. But I think that without that real world reference point I may have had the same issue you have.

[Martin]

I haven't gotten that far yet, but felt that I had to write down my early impression, so here goes..
I really found the beginning impressive, in the way Le Guin uses very small measures to paint the big picture.
Here's a few examples:
By making the landmass a very small part of the total surface, much in the same way the "creechies" is much small in stature compared to the humans, a sense of vulnerability is created. This helps to emphasize the feeling of planetary rape.
The choice to use a lumber company as human community creates a certain 'butch'/male dominated setting.
References to the conquistadors and the settling of western America helps to create a atmosphere and expectation of how the humans are to treat to local populace, nature and wildlife.

I can't say that I like the picture, but I can't help but admire 'the brush strokes'.

[Brad]

Nice points, Martin. I thought the lumber company was a nice touch. So different from the usual mining concerns that bring human expansion to planets in so many Sci-Fis. The focus on timber was refreshing.

I fear I may be the only one this month who really enjoyed this book -- both the picture and the brush strokes. And I'm probably the only one who didn't find it dated. I'm struggling with that a bit, wondering why I seem to be reacting so differently from everyone. Maybe it's just because I am stuck in the late seventies/early eighties. I wonder, though, if part of my response is that I've only ever read one or two "environmental" Sci-Fis, and they would all be from around the time of Word for World is Forest, like Ballard's Drowned World. Also, I may be one of the only people in the world to not see Avatar, and I am sure that must be in the mind of everyone who reads this book.

[[deleted user]]

Honestly, I didn't like Avatar all that much either. It suffered from the same use of tropes as this book does, with the addition of one other (warning, TVTropes.org will steal your life).

[Brad]

I've steered clear of Avatar because I am sure I won't like it because I am sure it will beat me over the head with tired environmentalist crap, yet I didn't feel that way with this book. Maybe it does have to do with knowing it is a book from the seventies. Maybe I just compartmentalized it subconsiously before I even started reading and was able to approach it with out my usual self-imposed impediments (which is how I will be doomed to watch Avatar)

[Silvio]

Martin wrote: "I really found the beginning impressive, in the way Le Guin uses very small measures to paint the big picture."

I like this. It's exactly what I like about so many of Le Guin's books.

[Silvio]

Brad wrote: "I fear I may be the only one this month who really enjoyed this book -- both the picture and the brush strokes.... Also, I may be one of the only people in the world to not see Avatar, and I am sure that must be in the mind of everyone who reads this book."

I really liked this book myself. Also, I haven't seen Avatar, not so much because of the themes as because of the ridiculously humanoid aliens. I know you could say Le Guin's guilty of that but at least she makes as good an attempt as you can to explain it.

[Carolyn]

You're not alone Brad - I really enjoyed this book as well! I didn't necessarily read it as 'dated', but it was definitely a product of it's times. Many of the themes/issues prevalent in it are still issues today, in differing degrees in countries around the world. Environmental pillaging - check out some of the clear-cutting logging going on in rainforest countries, or some of the types of quarry mining still being used. Slavery - well we're still seeing that in varying degrees in countries around the world, especially as it relates to the status of ethnic minorities or women in those countries. Misogyny - see above.

Captain Davison is a villian, and extremely so. I was outright disgusted with him within a couple of pages of the book's start. But while nowadays he may seem like a 'caricature' to some, I think that at the time this book was written 1972-76, he was actually quite the norm for the very 'manly' mentality.

Not to say that every man was like that, but have you ever seen some of the crap that went on in the factories and the at-the-time male-dominated workplaces? Or even schools - the trials of the first women to enter the military academies were not minor. Heck, VMI here in Virginia only admitted women for the first time in 1997. I know a woman who was in that first class and the way they were treated by some of the students and faculty is horrifying.

I had a women's study minor in college, and I still enjoy reading women's history, so I honestly marvel how far we (women) have come in the last 100 years - in the U.S. anyways. There are undoubtably men like that who still exist today in the U.S., but our workplace laws and sexual violence laws have largely changed what is acceptable, and legal (thank goodness!) However, in many other countries, its not uncommon to find men still like that - Middle Eastern, Asian, African, etc. - due to religious or cultural norms.

Anways, I have seen Avatar - and loved it! - and it made me think about this book, wondering how much influence it had on Cameron as he was writing the script. (Assuming that he at some time was exposed to it himself.)

[[deleted user]]

I have honestly never in my entire life come across any man who acted like Davidson. Ever.

I've come across my share of evil/mean people(racists, gotta love 'em) but have never seen anyone like what was described in this book.

So maybe that's why, to me, he is so out there as to not be believable.

[Mary JL]

I enjoyed this book a lot! It is my second reading--read it years ago.

Captain Davidson is imho slightly 'overdone' to make a point. But there are still a lot of people like him out there.

[Charlotte]

Somehow I don't see this as an environmental book at all. I avoid such books, as extreme environmentalism does not seem at all constructive to me. Lots of things just make common sense, like don't waste water & energy, but the gloom & doom scenarios I don't really buy. Or else I read them as fun disaster books, not as serious commentary.

But this is about neither extreme environmentalism nor common sense conservation to my view. I see it as addressing the evils of colonialism, taking over and destroying another civilization's habitat and way of life, eg in Newfoundland the native population died out completely. Avatar had the same theme. I have seen it suggested somewhere that Avatar stole the plot of this book, but there are a lot of differences - being inspired by a book is not the same as stealing from it. Both could be seen as commentary on the excesses of European expansion and a plea not to make the same mistake as we move into space. Or they could be seen as anti-racist as the natives are clearly treated as inferior beings, just like the African blacks who were rounded up as slaves. And I am sure there were a lot of Captain Davidsons among the slavers!

[Brad]

Nicely said, Charlotte. That is primarily how I read the book too -- as a criticism of colonialism/imperialism (with environmentalism as a result of those).

[Martin]

I must say that I find this thread very interesting!

Brad wrote: I fear I may be the only one this month who really enjoyed this book -- both the picture and the brush strokes.
I didn't say that I didn't like the book, in fact I loved it - I love books that sets my mind abuzz with ideas and thoughts. What I didn't like in the beginning was what was depicted - in essence a planetary rape.

I think this book really points to the strengths with the SciFi (and Fantasy) genres, which is that they allow everyday aspects of human nature to be pushed to the extreme to high-light the point the author wants to make. I tried to think of other Sci-Fi books that has done that to me and the only I could remember off-hand were Fahrenheit 451 and 1984.

One thing that Le Guin high-lights is her revulsion to what's going on in Vietnam at the time the book was written. Her choice to target that war is in my opinion what has allowed this book to become dated. She chose to place the story on a forest planet, added helicopters, machine-guns, napalm and racism towards the natives. It might also be the very reason that the book become so 'popular'.
I'm unable to see what would have happened on earth that would make it economically profitable to cut forests on a remote planet and then ship it for 54 years. Remember that the helicopters and other machines seems to be run on gas and oil. It just doesn't make economical sense.

Evironmentalism is definitely a part of the story and what Le Guin wants to highlight, but I didn't feel that it was the major point.

There are a lot of people that points out Captain Davidson as evil, but no one has mentioned Selver.
Selver gathers followers, teaches them to kill and when attacking the central human community (I forget the name) they specifically targets the human females to prevent the humans to reproduce. What have the women done to deserve this?

To me this book was really about human nature and more specifically the origin of human evil, where the Davidson/Selver and Lyubov plays there different roles.
Davidson is throughout the book portrayed as outright evil. It's not until the very end that there is a hint to where he (and his evil) has come from. It's mentioned that there were famine where he grew up and 'racial' rivalry, which to me would help explain whom he became.
Lyubov is throughout the book presented as good and he dies trying to save a human woman from being burned alive (only to have her throat slit). His reports is also what gave the 'happy ending' where Athshe is left alone by the humans and their allied.
Selver is the character that transforms from outright good and docile, to revengeful (after his wife's rape and murder) unto hateful after his fellow Athsheans have been murdered by Davidson. When Selver and Lyubov meet after Davidsons ambush of the Athshean village, Lyubov sees that Selver is no longer the same. It's not until Selver realizes that Lyubov's death has an effect on him that he shows any sign of remorse and it's ultimately what makes him spare Davidson's life.

One thing I didn't understand was the purpose of having the Athsheans dream, rather then sleep. Can someone please give me a hint (if you see a purpose)?

[Brad]

Interesting thoughts on Selver, Martin. I remember thinking similar things when I was reading, and then losing the thread of those thoughts when I put the book down, being stuck on the nastiness of Davidson. Selver's vengeance was brutal in its pragmatism. Killing the women to stop childbearing was a powerful statement. I wonder if the implication was that Selver, more than simply wanting to stop a population increase, was motivated by a need to ensure that no humans could become native to the planet, thereby giving them a greater stake in staying. I am sure there is more to say about Selver. Thanks for bringing that aspect of the story back into the thread.

[Jason]

Carolyn wrote: "You're not alone Brad - I really enjoyed this book as well! I didn't necessarily read it as 'dated', but it was definitely a product of it's times. Many of the themes/issues prevalent in it are sti..."
Amen, to much of what you said Carolyn. This discussion brings me back to a Balkan history class I took during undergrad. I was learning about the conflict there and watched a video that dealt with rape camps. It was hard to watch, just like it was hard to read the davidson characters exploits and attitude at times. I was in college 20 + years after this book was published. People should not, in my opinion see this book as outdated. If that were true, Avatar would not exist. As was already said, in much of the world these attitudes prevail. Our planet and society are not in the shape they are because things a going well. Thank goodness for people like LeGuin and others who continue to tackle difficult subject matter. If not for them, we may hve blown it already.

[Sarah]

I really struggled with this story and I'm still not sure how to rate it. It seems like her prior books have been far more intellectual and this one was so emotional.

I had a really hard time reading Davidson's character at times because he was so narcissistic. On the other end, I struggled with Selver because their culture was being so badly damaged. I especially struggled when Gosse "taught" him the concept of guilt. What happened to Selver's people was so awful, and Gosse of all people, the man who mocked Lyubov for actually thinking the Creechies wouldn't get wiped out, that bastard lays all of the blame at Selver's feet.

Overall, I hated seeing these creatures so dramatically changed and I really struggled with some parts. I actually wish I hadn't read it. So it was brilliant and I wish I hadn't read it - what the hell do I rate it?

[Martin]

Sarah wrote: "...
I actually wish I hadn't read it. So it was brilliant and I wish I hadn't read it - what the hell do I rate it?"

I think the thing you have to ask yourself is if books has to have a pleasant story. This once doesn't, but does that have to be a bad thing?
What do you want your books to do to you?
Personally I prefer books that makes me think, but what is your preferences?

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I read this shortly after reading The Dispossessed and I enjoyed it (The Word for...) more. The Dispossessed was a much more cerebral analysis of the good and bad of human nature. For this book, my outrage was raw and easily targeted.

The villains were clear, the good guys were clear the atrocities were really bad, all evoking emotions. Does Le Guin hope to change human behavior? If so this is a good stab. Nothing like a good writer to get you to feel the oppresion of a weaker section of life.

I am sure there are parallels to draw in our reality but for now I will just wallow in my outrage, convinced I would do nothing like this myself.

[Edwin]

Hank wrote: "I read this shortly after reading The Dispossessed and I enjoyed it (The Word for...) more. The Dispossessed was a much more cerebral analysis of the good and bad of human nature. For this book, my outrage was raw and easily targeted."

Interesting, I had the opposite reaction. My comparison was with The Left Hand of Darkness, where Le Guin's explorations of the meeting and interactions between divergent cultures was nuanced and elegant. In The Word for World is Forest, it is indeed raw, direct and in your face. There is no subtlety here. The sides to me were dichotomized to the point of being silly. Davidson was just too over the top in his malignancy, and Le Guin's portrayal of the Athsheans and their world was on the other side overly idyllic to the point of absurdity. I came away feeling that my emotions were being manipulated in a rather blatant way.

Having said all that, I really did think that this was a great book, with lots of great ideas and food for thought. Le Guin is a master of her craft.

[Edwin]

Sarah wrote: "Overall, I hated seeing these creatures so dramatically changed"

Yeah, there were lots of difficult themes in here, themes tied in with the impact as cultures meet, interact and clash. The loss of innocence, a Paradise Lost.

[Sarah]

Martin wrote: "I think the thing you have to ask yourself is if books has to have a pleasant story. This once doesn't, but does that have to be a bad thing?..."

For some reason I missed this. My issue is that according to Goodreads "I didn't like it" is supposed to one star. I didn't like this book but I couldn't possibly give it one star because I didn't like it for all the right reasons.

[Sarah]

Edwin wrote: "Davidson was just too over the top in his malignancy, and Le Guin's portrayal of the Athsheans and their world was on the other side overly idyllic to the point of absurdity. ..."

I can see what you mean. I felt that Davidson had Narcissistic Personality Disorder so his behavior didn't really surprise me all that much. He was nauseating, of course, but aside from that he didn't bother me. They definitely were black and white. I did like the comment that because of their passivity they had lost the ability to progress at all.

Hank wrote: "I am sure there are parallels to draw in our reality but for now I will just wallow in my outrage, convinced I would do nothing like this myself...."

I like this theory Hank :)

[Edwin]

Sarah wrote: "I felt that Davidson had Narcissistic Personality Disorder"

I would classify him a classic antisocial personality disorder.

[Sarah]

I'll have to look that one up since its been awhile. He really couldn't handle perceived slights and he had such an ego. The fragile kind.

[Sarah]

That's interesting. I wouldn't have matched him with the DSM-IV but he's pretty dead on to the ICD-10 criteria.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

Edwin wrote: "I came away feeling that my emotions were being manipulated in a rather blatant way."

I completely agree but couldn't do anything to stop it happening. Lately I haven't been able to spend enough time on individual books to appreciate the nuanced approach. The full-frontal-assault approach fails more often than not but when the writer is good and he/she makes it work....it works!

[Sarah]

That's pretty much how I felt. She wasn't subtle but the book was quite powerful.

[Silvio]

I liked that even though Davidson and some of the other Terrans are completely evil and the Athsheans are completely good, to start with, it doesn't remain that simple. The Athsheans only defeat us through being partly corrupted by us. That's really pessimistic and I hope it wouldn't have to happen that way in reality, but it seems like a touch of plausible nuance.

[Sandi]

Unlike LeGuin's archeologist's careful approach in other stories, this book was a sledgehammer to the brain and heart - but it was effective. I felt like she was mad about something very specific and was channeling that. I feel the same way each time I pass a tree-covered lot that is going to be bulldozed for yet another gas station across the street from a gas station (or any of the innumerable environmental slights we still keep perpetrating on the world). And I hate to admit that I know of a few people that could very well be Davidson's brothers/sisters. Knowing them (or at least being acquainted with them) definitely gives this a level of distasteful credibility that I really wish I could pass off as caricature. And I love the diagnoses - I am going to have to reacquaint myself to those - its been awhile.

[Michael]

I am overdue for commenting to this thread, but had trouble starting because I have so many thoughts. I loved the book. The "why" is multifaceted: the way Le Guin writes such different characters and then shows the story from each of their points of views; the way this story pulled the rug from under me by making humans the bad guys; the way I was rooting for the Athsheans, but then got to the end and felt I should have been careful what I wished for; the way Le Guin interleaves the issues of genocide/xenocide, mysogyny, and environmental destruction to show how they are all connected.

The thing that hit me the most was the human representation. I can now thankfully say that I have read many other of Le Guin's Hainish Cycle books, and reading this one threw me for a loop. I was like, "wait, I thought the humans were all enlightened and investigating species in a non-destructive ways", and then I realized, no, that was the Hainish. (The odd, aloof advisor was one - Lepennon - that was on the advisory committee from the starship.) I had come to identify with the Hainish as the course of future bipedal enlightenment, but forgot they weren't actually humans. It was quite depressing I have to say! The ramblings of Davidson - he was slightly (wildly?) insane but he still represents classic human archetypes/heroes - were so off-putting I had to check the cover to make sure I was reading a Le Guin book!

And although it was heartbreaking to see the Athsheans incorporate murder into their society (Selver, the God of War), I thought it was interesting that the corresponding "victory" on the human side was in science (Lepennon says Dr. Lyubov's research is one of the main reasons the Terran colony is forced to leave the planet). I guess that may be Le Guin's main message here - we ignore the scientists (our elders?) at our own peril (and everyone else's).

Also, I have heard people say James Cameron stole the plot to Avatar from this book, but I say it looks a lot more like the Ewoks and the Battle for Endor!

[Sarah]

I was completely shocked by how different it is from her other Hainish books, as well. If I had read this one first I don't know that I would have read the others.

[Allison]

Clearing

.
.
.

[Allison]

Some
.
.
.
.
.
.

[Allison]

space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

[Allison]

Let's use this for the upcoming buddy read! Careful, above are spoilers! Please tag spoilers for the buddy read portion of this thread, and list chapter/reference page or % so that we may follow along :)

[Gabi]

Does anybody know if this one is perchance contained in one of her story collections? Over here the novel alone is rather expensive (for the number of pages) and I still can't find my copy of it.

[Anna]

This wiki mentions it's been published in Again, Dangerous Visions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wor...

[Dawn F]

Wow, that collection is $2.49 for me on Kindle, that’s ridiculously cheap! I have the physical book of Word for World... but I’m sure getting this collection anyway.

[Gabi]

Thank you so much for looking this up, Anna. Yet I'm unsure, cause it says that it is the novella that later became a novel, so I presume that it is a shortened version there (and it is € 10 for me … I should move to Denmark)

[Dawn F]

Wow, that’s crappy. One would think the only difference would be the taxes (ours is 25%). I’ll make up the spare room for you!

[Anna]

It’s probably because Germany has Amazon.de, so their prices and sales are different from Amazon US where Danes and Finns shop for ebooks.

Gabi, your library doesn’t have it, even translated?

[Gabi]

Anna, my crappy library has exactly two Le Guin novels (Dispossessed and The Lathe of Heaven). I live in philistine suburban hell ;-) .

[Rachel]

Got this from library yesterday and read the first chapter tonight. Certainly pulls you in fast. Guess I’ll wait to laptop anything more for spoiler-phobes

[Rachel]

Wondering who else was in on this one? I know I didn't start it lol.

anyway- Spielbergs theft aside, Chapter 1:
(view spoiler)[ Obviously we are NOT cheering for the humans in this one - the first chapter POV makes it clear they are horrible Dbags. Is it wrong that I feel relieved that humans are already being killed? (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

I'm in. Starting this tomorrow.

[DivaDiane]

I will try to reread this in the next few days and join the discussion. My recollection is rather vague.