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Should You Be Able To Have Your Cake And Eat It Too?
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I like cake. And I want to eat it, too. I've never understood that phrase. If you get cake, what's the point of not eating it?
Never mind the cake, what about the bratwurst?
make my cake chocolate with loads of ice cream.as for the BBall player, Allums "has informed the university that he will not begin any medical or drug protocols while a student-athlete." so he is technically still a female and if they are all OK with it, then fine.
What Ms. Petra said -- no hormones, no medical changes while playing, so I don't see a problem. That means in every way that counts to the league, he is still a she. I'm surprised that he would be willing to still play on a women's team, since the transpeople I know tend to want to make a clear break. That said, I'm guessing either he loves basketball, or needs basketball. Is GW a school with basketball scholarships?
I believe they do have scholarships Pi, and I'm sure that has a lot to do with the decision not to change at this time.
just asking if you think this is having the best of all the worlds? if she/he really wanted to be seen and viewed as a man, how could that seriously happen on a women's team? even if they "needed" the college or scholarship is that meaning the financial benefits or gains are a priority over their gender identity?
But what if the scholarship is the only way to finish college? I would guess there would be a huge internal struggle: deny who you are and graduate, or embrace who you are and be forced to drop out. I would rather applaud the school and the team for being accepting of something that takes a lot of guts to do.
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This would only be an issue if she were now biologically male.
Barb wrote: "* I really should read links before I become entrenched in debates. ... :P "I find that really takes the fun out of it.
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I find that really takes the fun out of it."
And adds to the workload.
mine issue is less physically but more how they want to be viewed and addressed. if they truly want to be a man than she/he needs to not be on a women's team. to me, it takes away credibility of their commitment to this gender change. my opinion
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Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "just asking if you think this is having the best of all the worlds? if she/he really wanted to be seen and viewed as a man, how could that seriously happen on a women's team? even if they "needed" ..."I see where you're coming from on this, Kevin. It's an interesting question.
I don't think this is an issue of having the best of all worlds. I don't think anything about being transgendered is the best of any world. I think it must be terribly difficult to feel so uncomfortable in your own skin. I have to agree that if he still wants to play basketball it's probably because basketball is really important to him. The article says he won't have the surgery or the hormone therapies while playing so the only thing changing is that he is officially being identified as male. But even if he did have the surgery I don't think it's an issue of trying to cheat the system because getting a penis doesn't make you better at basketball. I suppose the hormones might. I don't know enough about the medicine end of it.
It seems simple enough on the face of it. Become a man, play on the men's team. There was a Philippino Club on campus when I was in college. Nice kids. I'm a Russian Jew from Boston, I didn't try to join.
When do you become a man, though?It's the physical and physiological differences that make a difference in sport, and he hasn't made any of those changes.
If it were the other way around, a guy who wanted to transition to female and play on a women's team pre-op and pre-hormones there would be massive protests if the school agreed. It would be an unfair physical advantage. It makes more sense from a sport perspective for that person to continue to play on the mens' team. (And likely we would soon hear about how that MTF got beaten up and/or hounded off the team, given the homophobic environment in many sports programs and even though transgendered folks aren't necessarily gay.)
Vice versa, this kid is still physiologically a woman. And as far as the school and NCAA rules are concerned, his body is still a woman's body. Unless he's some kind of basketball phenom, he's not going to make the GW men's team. I feel sorry for him and the misery he must feel in the locker room, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that no trans person would purposefully put themselves through this unless they
a)absolutely adored basketball and recognized that once they committed to this change, they would not be able to play competitively again
or
b)needed to keep a scholarship to stay in school
Nothing else would make it worth it.
i never thought this was an advantage for the women's team. i would however have an issue with a man playing for the women's team. this is just something that has caused me to think about gender changes and how this looks going forward.
Uh, wow. I actually do see. For the first time ever.
I'm a volleyball guy, but only grew to 5'11". That pretty much limited me to playing "B" level, or "A-" if the team needed a serving/back row specialist.Those playing the A and AA divisions were minimum 6'2", or had a 42" vertical jump.
BunWat wrote: "I have never been a big fan of having mens teams and womens teams in the first place. I'd much rather have weight divisions like in boxing. Or height divisions. When I played volleyball the wome..."But the type of muscle mass that each sex tends to develop (naturally, ignoring steroids) differs, doesn't it? I mean, if men and women of similar height and weight competed against each other in track, wouldn't the top men still outsprint the top women?
All of the horse sports are co-ed, incidentally. And even there, there are advantages that each sex has over the other. The positioning of a man's hips actually makes it easier for them to achieve the proper body position for dressage.
I agree Sarah, for the most part I don't see weight divisions working out very well. I have no problem with the genders being separated at competitive levels. I have no problem with co-ed for intramurals etc.Please do not take this as an I don't think that they could compete, because I am sure that many could and would be successful to a certain extent, but the genders are built differently.
the fact is that in many if not most sports women cannot equally compete with men. even non contact sports such as track and field events. just look at the records for these events in both the men's and women's categories. there has not been a women in pro football, non yet in pro baseball and only one sort of in the NBA (nancy lieberman). trust me, this is not chauvinistic attitude as in pro sports if you can help a team win they will find a spot for you. some sports such as diving, tennis, racing to name a few there def is room for cross gender events. also, a top level women athlete in most any sport can beat an average man handily. just saying that overall, these are facts
Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "http://sports.espn.go.com/ncw/news/st...ok...the way i read this is a member of the GW women's basketball team has decided to become a man and now she/he wants to remain on the women..."
If you're identified as a man, then you're a man. No you can't compete on a women's team.
Kristi wrote: "If you're identified as a man, then you're a man. No you can't compete on a women's team. ."Can you compete on the men's team even though you are physically not a man? Do you have to try out all over again? Do you lose your scholarship even though you maintained your academics and your playing standard?
That seems like a glib answer to a nuanced question.
btw - my comments are off topic but are my thoughts and opinions on men / women competing in same sports
Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "btw - my comments are off topic but are my thoughts and opinions on men / women competing in same sports"I agree with what you wrote above, Kevin. And there have been cases of high school athletes crossing the line - female wrestlers, placekickers in football, but it doesn't work across the board. I would be afraid that women would lose even more spots in sport if it were divided according to size instead of sex.
And your last comment reminded me of that show "Pros. Vs. Joes" which Zu likes to watch sometimes. They've had female pro soccer and softball players come on and kick the butts of the average Joe guys at their chosen sports.
yeah, jenny finch would strike me out coldno doubt that women can compete with men at certain levels. i coach youth baseball and at the 7-12 age level the girls are maybe more athletic than the boys and are better listeners thus better learners. but, on an all boys team they do not fit in well as they don't go for spitting water on each other, pulling each others fingers or general kookiness. mostly their dads wanted them to play boys baseball instead of girls softball which is a much better idea because there is a future in that for them (high school team, college, olympics, etc). when the boys have team sleep-overs they don't fit in. i don't try to pigeon hole them into anything, i just want them to fit in so their experience will be positive. at 13 yrs old boys mature physically (not mentally by any measure LOL) and the competition separates
The same fits with soccer too. I always had a couple girls on my soccer teams when they were pre teen, and the girls were as good or better than the majority of the boys. But once the were off the field, the couple of girls were always outsiders with the boys, no matter what. That's why eventually they most move on to all girl teams even though the competition may be less.
Sarah Pi wrote: "Kristi wrote: "If you're identified as a man, then you're a man. No you can't compete on a women's team. ."Can you compete on the men's team even though you are physically not a man? Do you have t..."
Yeah, but if you received scholarships based on the fact that you're a woman then no you shouldn't keep the scholarship as a man.
I never received scholarships for my Native American heritage, even though I could have. I don't live as a Native American so I thought it was wrong to utilize a loophole that would've benefited me.
I believe the person in question needs to choose which way they wish to live. And then they need to live in that role. Why should they be giving benefits others are denied? If the sports are seperated based on gender then you have to compete in the gender you are. Now if it's a Co-ed team, then hey, that's a different story.
I believe you have to make choices for yourself, based on what's best for you, and what makes you happy. However, I don't think you get to cry later that you want to still receive the benefits of what you left behind. If you make a choice, there's a consequence, good or bad and you need to live by the consequence.
If I were you Bunwat I'd nab Clarks twins as well. They train 4 times a week.
BunWat wrote: "Okay I call Phil to be on my team for the TC Volleyball tournament!! "I'd love to be on your team. Just know that I won't play naked. :->
Are you going to play with your hat on Phil?
Gail "cyborg" wrote: "If I were you Bunwat I'd nab Clarks twins as well. They train 4 times a week."
Volleyball is over. Basketball starts this week. And come spring, they both want to play flag football. With the boys. Christ knows they're aggressive enough for it.
Volleyball is over. Basketball starts this week. And come spring, they both want to play flag football. With the boys. Christ knows they're aggressive enough for it.
Nothing wrong with that Clark, my daughter has always played in mixed teams. Soccer & Hockey.
(Field hockey not ice hockey.)
(Field hockey not ice hockey.)
smetchie wrote: "Uh, wow. I actually do see. For the first time ever."Ha! Me, too. But I still want to have my cake and eat it, too. It's like a never-ending cake supply.
Gail "cyborg" wrote: "Nothing wrong with that Clark, my daughter has always played in mixed teams. Soccer & Hockey.
(Field hockey not ice hockey.)"
Agreed. Aggressiveness is a definite plus in sports. If they could just transfer some of that aggression to their brother, I'm fully convinced I'd have college football coaches beating down my door looking for an offensive lineman.
(Field hockey not ice hockey.)"
Agreed. Aggressiveness is a definite plus in sports. If they could just transfer some of that aggression to their brother, I'm fully convinced I'd have college football coaches beating down my door looking for an offensive lineman.
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ok...the way i read this is a member of the GW women's basketball team has decided to become a man and now she/he wants to remain on the women's team but be known and thought of as a man. personally, i don't think this is right. if she/he wants to be a man then she should have to try out for the men's team. it would be diff if she/he were a lesbian and staying on the team which i have no prob with but to go as far as to totally be identified as a man and then play on the women's team is not right by me.
thoughts?