The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
This topic is about
The Brothers Karamazov
Fyodor Dostoevsky Collection
>
Brothers Karamazov, The 2010/11: Background & Schedule
Chris, I would leave the schedule a bit fluid and see where it goes. I'm guessing a lot of the discussion will focus on the early chapters and attention will wander later in the book. Part of the problem with keeping a vibrant discussion going is pacing and it's going to be an interesting task with this one, especially over the holidays. You might end up compressing the schedule as it goes along. If it stretches out too much people will finish on their own and be on to other things. I think Adam Bede suffered a bit from that.
message 3:
by
Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder
(last edited Oct 31, 2010 10:43AM)
(new)
-
added it
Mod
I am approaching The Brothers Karamazov in the same fashion that I did during a group read of Eliot's Daniel Deronda, another fat-book and deeply philosophical. I was very religious about each week carefully reading my required sections and then on Sunday a.m. sitting down and sharing my thoughts. It was an intensely satisfying and enriching experience for me. I hope that those who plan to participate in this group read find this novel to be that kind of experience.
Anyway, lets 'kick it about' as a group over the next few days, and see how the chips fall, eh?
Eleven weeks is none too long for this book, though it's a pity it has to compete with the holidays. But speaking just for myself, being so challenged in reading, I welcome plenty of time to work through this very dense text. I also notice that Patrice asked about members of the Orthodox Church. I think it's very important to understand than when Dostoevsky speaks of Christianity, he is talking about Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which in many significant aspects is quite different from the Catholicism or Protestantism that most Western readers are accustomed to. It's even more challenging, I think, than reading about a religion or belief system that is alien to the reader, because here we will be reading familiar terms that we think we understand well, but in reality don't.
I am not sure that I am in the mood to read about Dostoevsky's 's 'fascination with the dark side of human will'and his equally dark life right now because I am feeling rather depressed as the dark winter nights set in, following last night's adjustment of UK clocks to GMT! Here are one or two bits and pieces about Dostoevsky:-
http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dosto...
http://www.russian-st-petersburg.com/...
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quote...
There are several versions of Constance Garnett's famous translation of TBK online. This one is perhaps the easiest to read:-
http://www.ccel.org/d/dostoevsky/kara...
Dostoevsky's TBK was very much influenced by the philosophy of Nikolai Fyodorovich Fyodorov:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_...
And here is something about Fyodorov's advanced ideas about populating space, which some think inspired men to reach for the moon:-
http://www.vbs.tv/en-gb/blog/nikolai-...
MadgeUK wrote: "I am not sure that I am in the mood to read about Dostoevsky's 's 'fascination with the dark side of human will'and his equally dark life right now because I am feeling rather depressed as the dark..."
I'm not sure about this one either Madge, for very similar reasons. But I will give it a shot and see where it goes. Winter in the PNW is bleak and gloomy enough without adding to it!
I'm not sure about this one either Madge, for very similar reasons. But I will give it a shot and see where it goes. Winter in the PNW is bleak and gloomy enough without adding to it!
Mod
Here is some info on the Eastern Orthodox Church:-http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religio...
http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedi...
Laurel may be able to fill us in with some of the religious aspects of the novel as I believe she lives amongst some Russian Orthodox believers and has studied Russian and Russian literature.
Kate wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "I am not sure that I am in the mood to read about Dostoevsky's 's 'fascination with the dark side of human will'and his equally dark life right now because I am feeling rather depre..."I have read it before but am re-reading now and hope to join in the discussion. Perhaps we ought only to read it on sunny days Kate, although sunny days in November are few and far between over here!
Patrice wrote: 'Dostoyevsky truly detested the Roman Catholic Church.Dostoevsky is an artist where one has to struggle to separate the author's life from his novels in order to come to an appreciation of them. It is perhaps better not to know anything about him and to put all he writes down to a brilliant imagination! (He was also an epileptic and subject to the bizarre hallucinations that illness sometimes causes.)
POSSIBLE SPOILERS: Dostoevsky wasn't exactly the soul of tolerance, as well as hating Catholics he hated Jews and Lutherans! Some of his anti-semitic outpourings would have done justice to Hitler:( Freud was pretty rough on him. He condemns Dostoevsky’s personal life as morally deficient, his religious and political beliefs as 'retrograde,' and the content of his novels as criminal. He wrote:-
'The temptation to reckon Dostoevsky among the criminals comes from his choice of material, which singles out from all others violent, murderous, and egoistic characters, which points to the existence of similar tendencies in his own soul, and also from certain facts of his life, like his passion for gambling, and perhaps the sexual abuse of a young girl.'
This is going to be a great group read! I just began today--I know, a bit early--and am about half way through the first book. I can already tell this is going to be an amazing book.Btw, what are the transaltions we'll be using? My copy is the Constance Garnett translation.
Historybuff93 wrote: "This is going to be a great group read! I just began today--I know, a bit early--and am about half way through the first book. I can already tell this is going to be an amazing book.Btw, what a..."
It's a great book, HB, and I don't remember it's being gloomy at all. I like Constance Barnett's translation because I like a translator from the same time period as the author.
Glad to see you here Laurel - reading another Russian book reminds me of the superb way you steered another group through both War and Peace and Eugene Onegin!:)
Mod
Oh, wonderful! Maybe Laurel, will help shepherd us through The Brothers Karamazov group read too! [Hint, Hint, Hint]
Christopher wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Glad to see you here Laurel - reading another Russian book reminds me of the superb way you steered another group through both War and Peace and Eugene Onegin!:)"Oh, wonderful! M..."
I'll chime in when I know something, but can't promise much. My "Russian study" has already deteriorated to "da" and "nyet" and nyet much more. it's a beautiful language, though, especially when sung.
I just read a page each from the Garnett and Pevear translations. Pevear seems to have captured Dostoevsky's humor better. With Garnett's translation, I thought I was reading Tolstoy there for a second.From Book III Chapter III The Confession of an Ardent Heart in Verse
Garnett:
"a fact which Alyosha had learned from Rakitin, who always knew everything that was going on in the town."
Pevear:
"This last circumstance Alyosha had learned --quite accidentally, of course-- from his friend Rakitin, who knew decidedly everything in their little town"
A whole phrase (in bold) is missing from Garnett's translation. I'd like to know whether it's in the original Russian.
According to Wikipedia:
Garnett "in instances where she did not understand a word or phrase, she omitted that portion."
Russian-American poet Joseph Brodsky, a Nobel Laureate in Literature, was unflattering in his criticism of Garnett: "The reason English-speaking readers can barely tell the difference between Tolstoy and Dostoevsky is that they aren't reading the prose of either one. They're reading Constance Garnett." It coincided with my experience, extremely limited though it was.
Garnett has been criticized frequently for "leaving out" bits that she found difficult to translate. You could try Andrew McAndrew's translations.
Did you see this comparison? http://www.dartmouth.edu/~karamazo/tr...
Did you see this comparison? http://www.dartmouth.edu/~karamazo/tr...
Laurel made an interesting point about liking a translation that was of the same period. Language changes and although modern translations may be more idiomatic and appear better to our modern 'ears', they may not, in fact, be as close to the language spoken at the time. In the end it is a question of personal preference.Here are some intersting comments on Garnett:-
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/...
MadgeUK wrote: "Laurel made an interesting point about liking a translation that was of the same period. Language changes and although modern translations may be more idiomatic and appear better to our modern 'ear..."
It is definitely a matter of preference. But there are other problems with contemporary translators. Both languages have changed slightly and so has our understanding and approach to foreign culture. So if you use a contemporary translator like Garnett you bring in different biases: first you have to "translate" her English to a more modern understanding of the words (ie a second translation) and b) you have no access to the more nuanced understanding of Russia that modern translators bring to the table. It is definitely true that she makes Dostoevsky sound like Tolstoy. I have old Garnett translations of both and my first impression when I started Karamazov was exactly the same as Nemo's. As in "My God, these sound alike!" Which is why I ordered the Avsey translation to read instead.
It is definitely a matter of preference. But there are other problems with contemporary translators. Both languages have changed slightly and so has our understanding and approach to foreign culture. So if you use a contemporary translator like Garnett you bring in different biases: first you have to "translate" her English to a more modern understanding of the words (ie a second translation) and b) you have no access to the more nuanced understanding of Russia that modern translators bring to the table. It is definitely true that she makes Dostoevsky sound like Tolstoy. I have old Garnett translations of both and my first impression when I started Karamazov was exactly the same as Nemo's. As in "My God, these sound alike!" Which is why I ordered the Avsey translation to read instead.
I've read Garnett translations of both Dostoevsky and Tolstoy, and, to be honest, I've never noticed them to be alike.
Kate wrote: "Garnett has been criticized frequently for "leaving out" bits that she found difficult to translate. You could try Andrew McAndrew's translations. Did you see this comparison? http://www.dartm..."
Interesting. I see what is meant by Garnett leaving things out.
But also i see what is meant by P&V being clunky. I mean, "There's just one thing: how can I make a compact with the earth evermore?" Huh? Much smoother reading is Garnett's "But the difficulty is how am I to cling forever to Mother Earth."
In a book as dense as BK, I think trying to read 800 pages of P&V would be excruciating. I did get it out of the library (I have the Garnett), and I'll give it a try, but based on those passages I'll probably go back to Garnett just for the comfort level. Time will tell.
message 22:
by
Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder
(last edited Nov 03, 2010 12:55PM)
(new)
-
added it
Mod
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005...
I have read Garnett's translations of Tolstoy, as well as the recent P&V translations (both, War and Peace and Anna Karenina). Suffice it to say, I am most assuredly reading The Brothers Karamazov translation by Pevear & Volokhonsky.
Enough of the 'translation wars' now, it is on to reading! Yippee!
message 23:
by
Captain Sir Roddy, R.N. (Ret.), Founder
(last edited Nov 03, 2010 12:54PM)
(new)
-
added it
Mod
http://www.newcriterion.com/articles....
Christopher wrote: "Here's the full article from The New Yorker that Madge's post, above, references. What I really found interesting is the superb description of the process and techniques utilized by Pevear and Vol..."
Thanks for the link Chris. Saves me from doing some searching of my own :)
Thanks for the link Chris. Saves me from doing some searching of my own :)
MadgeUK wrote: "Laurel made an interesting point about liking a translation that was of the same period. Language changes and although modern translations may be more idiomatic and appear better to our modern 'ear..."Thank for the links and references. I'm sure I'll consult them many times as I read BK (if I decide to take it up that is).
That's a humorous article on Garnett and translation. I can't help thinking if I were a translator, perhaps I would have done exactly what Garnett did, i.e., smoothing a "volcano" into a "lawn". Maybe that's what we as readers do anyways. We absorb what is akin to our nature, and either neglect or reject the rest.
Christopher wrote: "And a wonderful article from the on-line magazine The New Criterion about the P&V translation of The Brothers Karamazov.http://www.newcriterion.com/articles...."
Great link, thanks Chris.
Has anyone tried David McDuff's translation for Penguin?
Patrice wrote: "Nemo, thanks for that interesting comparison. Translations are so frustrating, we never really know what the author is doing. What strikes me about the comparison is how much easier it is to read..."I'm the one who described the Pavear translation as "clunky", and selected the more recent Ignat Avsey translation, refreshingly titled "The Karamazov Brothers"...after all, a translator should always use the natural word order of his target language, and it should always have been this way, and hopefully it will catch on and be accepted in the future. I'm enjoying reading it and hope that if Nemo or anyone else puts quotes from the book again, that they will state which section of the book the sentence comes from so that I could offer a third version for comparison.
On the back cover of this edition is a quote by Freud:
'The most magnificent novel ever written.'
Jan wrote: "Patrice wrote: "Nemo, thanks for that interesting comparison. Translations are so frustrating, we never really know what the author is doing. What strikes me about the comparison is how much easi..."
I think several of us made that "clunky" comment about P&V on various threads. :) I decided on the Avsey translation too. Sounds like we'll have a nice mix of different translators. Should make some of the discussions interesting.
I think several of us made that "clunky" comment about P&V on various threads. :) I decided on the Avsey translation too. Sounds like we'll have a nice mix of different translators. Should make some of the discussions interesting.
Jan wrote: "I'm enjoying reading it and hope that if Nemo or anyone else puts quotes from the book again, that they will state which section of the book the sentence comes from so that I could offer a third version for comparison. ..."Good suggestion, Jane. I just edited my comment above to add that the quote was taken from Book III Chapter III The Confession of an Ardent Heart in Verse.
I was using the "Page 100 Test" to pick my edition, and that quote happened be around that page. I spent an hour in a bookstore comparing a few pages (from Bk. III Ch. III and Bk IV Ch. I) in all the translations available there, McDuff's for Penguin, MacAndrew's for Bantam, Avsey's for Oxford World, along with P/V's and Garnett's.
Whilst sorting some old books out today I came across my 1958 edition of TBK, translated by David Magarshack who was born in Latvia, then part of Russia, in 1899, went to secondary school in Riga but studied English Literature at London University. He was well known for his pre-war translations of Russian authors, especially Dostoevsky, and for his biographies . His rendering of the sentence quoted above from Book III Chapter III is:-'Aloysha had learnt this quite by chance, of course, from his friend Rakitin, who knew absolutely everything that was gong on in their town, and naturally at once dismissed it from his mind.'
The Garnett reads:
'a fact which Alyosha had learned from Rakitin, who always knew everything that was going on in the town.'
The Pevear reads:
'This last circumstance Alyosha had learned --quite accidentally, of course-- from his friend Rakitin, who knew decidedly everything in their little town.'
I wonder if Magarashack likely to be more accurate because he was a Russian speaker, educated in Russia?
This online book 'The Translator in the text: on reading Russian literature in English' goes into great detail about a number of translators (including Garnett, Pevear & Magarshack) and compares their various styles.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jk...
MadgeUK wrote: "This online book 'The Translator in the text: on reading Russian literature in English' goes into great detail about a number of translators (including Garnett, Pevear & Magarshack) and compares their various styles...."Another interesting read! Thanks! It's a pity it doesn't cover McDuff's translation, which was published nine years later.
To paraphrase, Garnett subsumed the voices under her own in the interests of clarity and elegance, and the exchange of voices became external to the novel (one between author and translator) rather than internal to it (between the characters). A good point.
Finally decided on P/V and McDuff. Avsey's translation turned me off for some reason; MacAndrew's was criticized in the book referenced by MadgeUK (message37), and I didn't quite like his rendering of the paragraph in the comparison Kate provided (message22).Thanks to everyone for your input.
MadgeUK wrote: "Whilst sorting some old books out today I came across my 1958 edition of TBK, translated by David Magarshack who was born in Latvia, then part of Russia, in 1899, went to secondary school in Riga b..."Ignat Avsey(trans), book 3, ch 3 as above...
Alyosha had heard about this quite by chance from his friend Rakitin, who knew all there was to know in our little town, and having found out, needless to say promptly forgot it.
This seems to agree with the Magarashack, Madge,but flows nicely, I think. Does anyone else besides me find the Pavear 'decidedly everything' a little unnatural in English?
I think 'decidedly everything' is not an English phrase many people would use today but it may have been used in the 1870s. It is rather stilted.
I disagree Madge. It's just poor English. Adverbs are normally used to modify a verb or an adjective.Examples: Write clearly. Translate beautifully.
Decidedly barbaric. Decidedly bitter.
Or they can modify a sentence as in: Obviously there is some disagreement here.
But where you don't expect to find an adverb is modifying a noun as in 'decidedly everything'. Of course rules are made to be broken and we do say 'absolutely everything'...but IMHO 'decidedly everything' is decidedly awkward, 'clunky',even.
Jan wrote: "I disagree Madge. It's just poor English. Adverbs are normally used to modify a verb or an adjective. ..."The original quote:
"knew decidedly everything in their little town".
"decidedly" was used to modify the verb "knew", followed by the objective of that verb "everything".
Jan wrote: "I disagree Madge. It's just poor English. Adverbs are normally used to modify a verb or an adjective.Examples: Write clearly. Translate beautifully.
Decidedly barbaric. Decidedly bitter.
Or they c..."
My point is that I do not think many people today would use the word 'decidely' at all, whereas it might have been in more common use then and maybe even used to modify nouns. Usage changes and what we consider poor English today may not have been poor English then.
But we need a Russian speaker to sort this out!:)
Nemo wrote: "Jan wrote: "I disagree Madge. It's just poor English. Adverbs are normally used to modify a verb or an adjective. ..."The original quote:
"knew decidedly everything in their little town".
"deci..."
This implies that 'to know decidedly' can be used. It's not just a question of what the Russians think, (although we don't want to get things wrong)...it has to sound like English to the speakers of English.
That's why I prefer Avsey's translation,'...who knew all there was to know...'
It's not just a question of what the Russians think, (although we don't want to get things wrong)..I think it is important to get the flavour of the Russian too, even if it may sound a bit odd to the English ear. To me 'decidedly' conveys a different meaning to 'knew all there was'. 'Decidedly' means 'without doubt' whereas 'all there was to know' is more vague. Maybe Dosteovsky used a Russian word similar to 'decidedly' which placed more emphasis on the fact that Ratikin was particularly well informed about the town and Pevear picked up on this?
But it doesn't really matter because we all, in the end, choose the translation we like or even the one we can obtain. The Magarashack translation is no longer available, for instance.
I'm surprised at just how many there are! Does anybody know how many have been done in total?
This bookgroup newbie will be using the Garnett because it was available right away (for 89 cents!) on my Kindle.
I'd rather read the Pevear/Volokhonsky because I enjoyed their Anna Karenina very much, but I see that I'm already behind a bit and I've no time to go out to the bookstore or the library this week. I'm traveling Thursday through Saturday -- lots of airport and airplane reading time. So off I go with what's instantly available.
I'd rather read the Pevear/Volokhonsky because I enjoyed their Anna Karenina very much, but I see that I'm already behind a bit and I've no time to go out to the bookstore or the library this week. I'm traveling Thursday through Saturday -- lots of airport and airplane reading time. So off I go with what's instantly available.
Mod
I'd rather read the Pevear/Volokhonsky because I enjoyed their Anna Karenina very..."
I am reading the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation and loving it!
Christopher wrote: "Kathy wrote: "This bookgroup newbie will be using the Garnett because it was available right away (for 89 cents!) on my Kindle. I'd rather read the Pevear/Volokhonsky because I enjoyed their Anna..."
And Garnett is working just fine for me.
Mod
Don't make me come back there.
Christopher wrote: "My Pevear-Volokhonsky is better than your Garnett, Yuch, Yuch, Yuch! Nyah, Nyah, Nyah! ;-)"The book has an unreliable narrator.
The discussion group apparently has an unreliable moderator.
So take that!
Mod
Also, Everyman, I would appreciate it if you would periodically remind me of the fact that the narrator is unreliable. I keep forgetting that, and somehow I think it probably well worth keeping it in mind as I read.
Christopher wrote: "You guys know that I was just trying to be cute. ..."You don't have to try. You are a cute Bear already. LOL
Christopher wrote: "You guys know that I was just trying to be cute."And you know that I ditto. Right?
Also, I have just perused the table of contents and can see that this is a seriously meaty novel. I wonder if we can accomplish the group read in eleven weeks utilizing the following schedule--
Week 1: Part I, Books One & Two
Week 2: Part I, Book Three
Week 3: Part II, Book Four
Week 4: Part II, Book Five
Week 5: Part II, Book Six
Week 6: Part III, Book Seven
Week 7: Part III, Book Eight
Week 8: Part III, Book Nine
Week 9: Part IV, Book Ten
Week 10: Part IV, Book Eleven
Week 11: Part IV, Book Twelve and Epilogue
This would take the group read from its start date of November 7, 2010, through January 22, 2011. I know that it sounds like a long time for a group read, but I am terribly leery of compressing the schedule too much more. Just flipping through the novel I fear that it warrants the time, and it is a reasonable enough schedule to allow people to enjoy the holidays without being completely overwhelmed with keeping up with their reading.
So, I put it to all of you--How does this schedule look to you? I would very much appreciate your feedback and thoughts.
Finally, as this is my first Russian author outside of the works of Tolstoy, and Solzhenitsyn, or the poet, Akhmatova, I am hopeful that others of you that have read Dostoevsky (this novel and/or others) will pitch in and help guide the discussion. I will do my very best, as I am quite excited to finally read this novel. I just have a feeling that this book will be very well worth experiencing with all of you.
Okay, now it is your turn!