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The Wayward Bus- November 2010
message 51:
by
Mad Dog
(new)
Nov 01, 2010 09:16PM
I did like the "double entendre-esque" usage of the word discommode by Steinbeck (in the middle of Chapter 3). I didn't even know for sure that it is a word (until I looked it up). I thought Steinbeck might have been making up a word.
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Mad Dog wrote: "I did like the "double entendre-esque" usage of the word discommode by Steinbeck (in the middle of Chapter 3). I didn't even know for sure that it is a word (until I looked it up). I thought Steinb..."Heh, I remember the word and being struck by it too way back on my first read of it. We both first read this about the same amount of years ago.
*What was unique about the setting of the book and how did it enhance or take away from the story?The restaurant, garage and living quarters are all tidy, organized and functional. The surrounding area is beautiful. It seems a paradise but since they live there they don't know it just as I wouldn't either. There are flies that won't stay outside.
The bus is functional, period. The windows won't open, they are removed in the summer. It stinks of gas and oil. It's seen better days. The charms, I can't recall the word used right now, on the dashboard are again, just practical. The jerry-rigged glove box has a few items such as a handgun and flare and a unopened bottle of liquor and Juan feels comfortable he can handle any emergency situation with these. .
I was thinking about the way Steinbeck depicts woman discussion. The first book (besides Dr. Suess) I remember reading was Tortilla Flat. I fell in love with reading with it. I was 9 or 10 years old. So I've gone back and read this many times throughout my life. I often go back and just read some of my favorite chapters as well. On some of the more recent readings I now recall getting the feeling that he was belittling the character's race. You know, even which praising their bodily constitution and so forth behind it was a veiled condescension. The feeling didn't really completely dawn on me until now. I still always love the book but that feeling, just under the surface, wasn't pleasant.
Marialyce wrote: "Appearances meant everything and the face you put to the world better be a good one or else you will be doomed to failure"..."I got the impression that perhaps Steinbeck was trying to make a commentary of the artificial nature that people sometimes exhibit."
I have the same feeling very strong.
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Mad Dog, I thought I had said this before but now don't see it, we have both read this around the same amount of years ago and not again until now. I am waiting to see how it affects me differently this time. I haven't got to Mr. Pritchard yet.
Perhaps, Steinbeck had prejudices against certain races. I do remember though how Lee in East of Eden was such a nobel, wonderful, character. I have not read Tortilla Flat as of yet, but, could it be that his prejudice was aimed at the people of Mexican ancestry? Do you sense it in other of his novels as well?
Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "When the rest of you who are reading this one are reading, do me a favor and think about who you would cast if a modern version of The Wayward Bus were to be filmed."So far I've come up with Benicio Del Toro for Juan Chicoy. I think he'd be perfect as him. For Pimples (er, Kit), I'm still thinking but I picture him as a red head. For the women I'm still at a loss.
Marialyce wrote: "Perhaps, Steinbeck had prejudices against certain races. I do remember though how Lee in East of Eden was such a nobel, wonderful, character. I have not read Tortilla Flat..."Damn, now it does seem so even in characters of like in Cannery Row and the sequel Sweet Thursday. It's starting to seem like an affection too but like the affection for a puppy or something. Not just the Mexican's either but Asian as well a bit. Maybe I'm reading this into it, I don't know. And like in the two books above the only real smart and caring people are the Doc and the Madame at the brothel. Honestly if you think about it this sentiment and similar ones were prevalent at the time, really they still are probably. And to be fair it's not one sided either.
Did Steinbeck ever write a novel with a black character besides the one in Of Mice and Men? I'm not suggesting he should have, like looking for racism that was not there but curious as I don't recall any other.
Marialyce wrote: "Perhaps, Steinbeck had prejudices against certain races. I do remember though how Lee in East of Eden was such a nobel, wonderful, character. I have not read Tortilla Flat..."At one point in the book there is a comment made by Mr. Pritchard of not wanting to go on vacation, especially to a dirty place (referring to Mexico).
Jorge wrote: "At one point in the book there is a comment made by Mr. Pritchard of not wanting to go on vacation, especially to a dirty place (referring to Mexico)."Yes, but Steinbeck doesn't depict him as an open-minded person anyway. Pritchard seems like an uptight materialistic chauvinist and etcetera like that.
Sometimes, I think, that all writers in their trying to reflect the attitudes of their characters, reflect their own ideals or lack thereof.The Mexicans were totally disliked especially in California at that time.(something like the attitude towards the Puerto Ricans in New York) Even today, many of us tend to look upon them as uneducated and illegal. They are good enough to mow our lawns but not good enough to grant them citizenship.
True. Even farther back in NYC it was the same for the Irish and others.
I've never had the impression that Steinbeck harbored prejudices against any people of color. The black man in Of Mice and Men is portrayed very sympathetically. The Chinese man in East of Eden, ditto. I suspect he wrote about the sorts of people he came into contact with most, and he had his characters reflect common prejudices of the time. I think of Steinbeck as a realistic writer, a "warts and all" sort of author.
Yes, I guess many prejudices prople have are never expressed specifically because they are prejudices. People who can openly and honestly express how they feel regardless of how it may be recieved are probably the most progressive among us.
Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "I've never had the impression that Steinbeck harbored prejudices against any people of color. The black man in Of Mice and Men is portrayed very sympathetically. The Chinese man in East of Eden, d..."--------------
I've never read anything about him that suggested he was prejudiced.
I hope to read a bit more tonight. I'm at the point where the bus trip is finally getting underway.
It seems as if many of the characters are not happy where they are at this point in their lives. They dream of the future or thier past.
Alias Reader wrote: "They dream of the future of past."?
Mr. Pritchard is worried about "Reds". His daughter's association with what he thinks are such and so forth. It seems to me his lodge operates essentially on the the same philosophy in many ways.
I think what makes the characters interesting is their essential dissatisfaction with their current lives, their desire to break away, to find happiness in some other person, or some other place. They dream of making it in Hollywood (and being loved by Clark Gable), becoming attractive and finding a woman to love, keeping the man, going to Mexico and leaving behind shrewish wives and rickety buses filled with complainers. In these ways the men and women on the wayward bus aren't too much different from anyone today.
Sorry, I meant to type dreams of the future or the past. I've corrected the post. I am having big issues with GR today. I don't know if it is my computer or GR. :(
Alias Reader wrote: "Sorry, I meant to type dreams of the future or the past. I've corrected the post. I am having big issues with GR today. I don't know if it is my computer or GR. :("
I have had various problems with GR (crashing, acting weird, etc.) when I use Internet Explorer 7. I don't recall having any problems (other than occasional slowness) when I use the latest Internet Explorer (IE8).
Mike wrote: "Mr. Pritchard is worried about "Reds". His daughter's association with what he thinks are such and so forth. It seems to me his lodge operates essentially on the the same philosophy in many ways."Wasn't the book written during the time of McCarthysim ? At that time many people were being accused of being communist and I beleive in Hollywood they were black balled when just if the person was accused. I think Mr. Pritchard might have feared this would happen to his daughter and then trickle down to him.
Alias Reader wrote: "Sorry, I meant to type dreams of the future or the past. I've corrected the post. I am having big issues with GR today. I don't know if it is my computer..."
I just wanted to make sure undersand what you meant.
---/----/---
It must be your computer or connection maybe. I've had no trouble at all today with GR's itself.
Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "In these ways the men and women on the wayward bus aren't too much different from anyone today."Like they've never learned to like themselves and need another to validate them perhaps. And a terrible loneliness and isolation a consequence. I know I was like that until my early thirties. I felt freed when I learned to like, even love myself in a way without a false grandiosity I had sometimes as well.
Jorge wrote: "Mike wrote: "Mr. Pritchard is worried about "Reds". His daughter's association with what he thinks are such and so forth. It seems to me his lodge operates essentially on the the same philosophy in..."This book was first published in 1947 a bit before McCarthyism but there were always "Red scares" in our history. Anyway it was after WWII and we were starting to feel pressure from Russia. Cold War and all that.
Bobbie57 wrote: "This book was first published in 1947 a bit before McCarthyism but there were always "Red scares" in our history. Anyway it was after WWII and we were starting to feel pressure from Russia. Cold War and all that."Oh yeah, fear is a great tool of the gov't. It's been used in the extreme in the last ten years, that's for sure. And it similar to McCarthyism in that if you you question, well then your unpatriotic. I don't mean your unpatriotic to not question necessarily but it's very patriotic to question. It means you care. Of course the reverse is true. Now instead of being black balled or you could possibly wind up in Cuba or end up "renditioned". That's may be extreme to say that but it is possible. And it has happened.
And I think people are afraid to lose a false sense of security. I understand and can sympathize. It's all a big ball of confusion. I'm frustrated by the apathy.
Even John Adams had the "Alien and Sedition Act." Sad, but true.
Bobbie57 wrote: "This book was first published in 1947 a bit before McCarthyism but there were always "Red scares" in our history. Anyway it was after WWII and we were starting to feel pressure from Russia. Cold War and all that. -------------------------
Thanks, Barbara. I was trying to place an exact year on the action in the book. In chapter 9 Mr. Pritchard takes a jab at returning soldiers, and doesn't recognize the Medal of Honor that Mr. Horton is wearing.
Pritchard says "and I only hope we can put in an administration that will take care of them."
"Like the last war?" Earnest asked?
I was wondering what administration he was referring to. Woodrow Wilson? And if there was a specific issue or event with returning vets. I know there was a lot of post traumatic stress. The novel,
Mrs. Dalloway comes to mind when I think of that.
In chapter 9 there is a section I have a question/comment about. "Camille was saying softly to Norma, "then there's this Wee Kirk i" the Heather.
My foot note says:
Wee Kirtk I the Heather: The chapel at Forest Lawn Cemetery in Glendale, burial sites of such writers as Theordore Dreiser and L. Frank Baum and such movie stars as W.C. Fields and Jean Harlow. Ronald Reagan and Jane Wyman were married there in 1940.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Ronald Regan was married in a cemetery ? Does anyone know if this was a common thing to do?
Could they have been referring to the chapel in Vegas? There is a chapel since the 1940's Were Kirk o the Heather? 'Originally, this was mainly due to the fact that Nevada's laws were more lax than most places in the country, where blood tests and waiting periods were the norm.' ??
http://www.weekirk.com/The_Wedding_Ch...
The issue was during the Hoover administration. Vets were promised bonuses. The government didn't deliver. There was a march on Washington. And an encampment because many of the vets were homeless at that point. Hoover sent troops to keep them under control. Bad situation. And Douglas MacArthur actually gave the order to fire on them at one point.
So what did you all think of Alice with her phobia about flies and her penchant for snooping?
I thought her to be quite the creepy character. The flies gave me that overall impression that she was a very troubled woman. Her snooping seemed to fit the picture as she was so obviously (to me at least) not mentally or socially stable, so unsure of herself and her relationship with her husband. The binge description was totally off setting to me. She reverts to the bottle in order to lose herself. Was her life so very depressing that she needed the relief of liquor? Was it any wonder that Juan wanted out? Why did he leave her knowing she would be indulging in the bottle?She was not at all a character to my liking. I could not find any redeeming aspect to her. I couldn't even find her pathetic.
Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "I think what makes the characters interesting is their essential dissatisfaction with their current lives, their desire to break away, to find happiness in some other person, or some other place. ..."Ditto. I'll say it another way. We are riding on that bus. We are sitting in that lunchroom. I think that is Steinbeck's ultimate motivation (for us to place ourselves in that lunchroom and on that bus).
Marialyce wrote: "I thought her to be quite the creepy character. The flies gave me that overall impression that she was a very troubled woman. Her snooping seemed to fit the picture as she was so obviously (to me a..."Because there are so many Alices in the world, I like Alice (as a literary character). But I would probably find her repugnant if I had to work with her. She was shown a 'mediocre life' as a child/young adult and she has not broken out of it. Nobody has ever loved her. She has been just an object in everybody's lives (and she has made everybody an object in her life). As life goes on, it just gets harder and harder for her. She needs leadership and guidance and there is none for her. I sound like a real liberal, here.
Although Juan is a more stable person, more likeable, and more well adjusted, he still has accepted a 'mediocre life'. In order to get along with world, he has disguised his angst. That could be said for many (if not all) of the characters in this book. I guess that could be said for many of us. And he treats Alice as an object.
I know this is an allegedly dark and cynical book, but my reaction to this book is UPBEAT. How can one move forward without taking stock of where we are? In my career, I have seen so many ventures begin optimistically and end in failure. It would be better to begin realistically (taking into account ALL of the negativity). It has been real interesting for me to read this book immediately after reading Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America. These books make me think of one of my favorite sayings: "Good News For People Who Like Bad News".
Bobbie57 wrote: "The issue was during the Hoover administration. Vets were promised bonuses. The government didn't deliver. There was a march on Washington. And an encampment because many of the vets were homeless ..."------------------------
Yes, I realized as I read on that it must be WWII they were talking about.
Yes, I've read about the bonus march. Douglas MacArthur was nuts. He wanted to burn down their makeshift tents too.
Sherry (sethurner) wrote: "So what did you all think of Alice with her phobia about flies and her penchant for snooping?"------------------
I haven't finished the book. But so far she is the least likable character. I really didn't like her snooping on Norma.
I do find her kind of a sad figure. She was unhappy and didn't know how to get out of her situation. She didn't have any confidence in herself and was so depressed she turned to liquor for solace.
But she is like most of the other characters in the book. They are unhappy in their present situation.
Mad Dog wrote: . We are riding on that bus. We are sitting in that lunchroom. I think that is Steinbeck's ultimate motivation (for us to place ourselves in that lunchroom and on that bus).------------
Yes ! Well put. Hopefully, unlike the people in the novel, we will take the time to realistically access our situations and do something constructive to fix it. Not just daydream or harm ourselves or others.
LOL - I adore your Gilligan's Island analogy! I was thinking more along the lines of Canterbury Tales, but I like your better.
Alias Reader wrote: "Bobbie57 wrote: "The issue was during the Hoover administration. Vets were promised bonuses. The government didn't deliver. There was a march on Washington. And an encampment because many of the ve..."Alias -- during the Hoover administration. Before WWII.
It was WWI bonuses.
Bobbie57 wrote: "Alias Reader wrote: "Bobbie57 wrote: "The issue was during the Hoover administration. Vets were promised bonuses. The government didn't deliver. There was a march on Washington. And an encampment b..."========================================
Yes. I mean the novel takes place in the WWII period, not the Bonus March.
I am still on Chapter 3. I feel the same as a lot of Jorge had to say like liking Alice as a literary character and more. When it comes to Alice and flies, I am am rooting for the flies.
I finished up the novel..SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE BOOK TO FOLLOW !
I was surprised by this book, it wasn't what I expected at all. It sure was a sad collection of characters.
I was totally shocked by what Mr. Pritchard did to his wife in the cave. And I was also surprised how Mrs. Pritchard would use such a thing to get some object (orchid house) that she wanted.
I felt bad for Van Brunt. I think his character was a good reminder not to judge people because you never know what they are going through.
Something tells me that the unhappy and unfulfilled lives of Alice and Juan are a preview of things to come for Pimples and Norma, no matter where or with whom their lives take them.
I am still early into it but I remember the first time having the idea that Norma and Pritchard's daughter of course had the best shot at a fulfilling life. Sure, Norma was going to be co-dependent for a time and people were going to take advantage of her for awhile but she eventually overcame it all in my thought's back then. My life was similar to her's in some ways when I was young. Pimples (Kit) too I think i felt probably grew up and had a not unhappy life.
I'll have to see if I get the same feeling this time.
Dig it..."Norma was even more submerged than an iceberg. Only the tiniest part of Norma showed above the surface. For the greatest and best and most beautiful part of Norma lay between her eyes, sealed and protected".
If I knew her, on some level, I'd love her. Only thing she needs to do is realize the above. In my mind she did.
I guess I'm making what should be one post into several but I don't feel like editing and more keeps occurring to me. When I said "All she needs" I mean all I hope for her. I don't know what another "needs".
And when I said I would love her I didn't mean in a intimate way. That could be though.. But I can love anybody in a non romantic way. It doesn't need to be a woman even.
I see Norma differently. If she makes it to Hollywood, I think she is going to be eaten alive. She is way too naive. It's the story of 99.9% of the kids that go there thinking they are going to make it big.
Answering some of the questions Sherry posted back in post #4*****Spoilers for the entire book to follow !
~~What was unique about the setting of the book and how did it enhance or take away from the story?
I like how it was contained to the dinner and the bus. It made it more intimate. People couldn't escape the setting. They had to deal with it or not as they choose. When you have that type of situation, people tend to drop their masks and reveal their true selves. Maybe even to themselves for the first time.
~~ What specific themes did the author emphasize throughout the novel? What do you think he or she is trying to get across to the reader?
This ragtag bunch had a lot of issues. Dissatisfaction with their lives. It showed how some are people schemers. How others some are dreamers and don't really live in reality. How cruel or even violent people can become. However, you have to know peoples back-story before you can really judge or better yet to try and understand them. And understanding doesn't mean forgiving.
~~Do the characters seem real and believable?
Yes
~~Can you relate to their predicaments?
Yes. I can understand feeling like you are trapped and there is no way out.
* How do characters change or evolve throughout the course of the story? What events trigger such changes?
I don't know that anyone really changes. Maybe Juan. He realizes he wants to be with his wife. Though that is only after he cheats on her. :(
Norma, tries to break out. I guess I give her credit for that. But I fear she is headed for bad times in Hollywood. She is too naive.
Pimples I is being taken in by the radar scam. It reminds me of the "draw this character and we will tell you if you have talent. Just send us $$$ " advertisements you used to see all over. Maybe Juan will help him out.
~~ Did certain parts of the book make you uncomfortable? If so, why did you feel that way?
Yes, the scene with Mr. Pritchard and his wife in the cave. And then how she used that violent act to get some stupid material thing she wanted.
Before that scene, I just thought Pritchard was just a jerk. Then I saw he was actually dangerous. It makes me uncomfortable to read someone so wrongly.
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