Writing Historical Fiction discussion
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Steven A.
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Nov 24, 2012 06:34AM
Hi Steven! :-)
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Steven A. wrote: "Hi Steven! :-)"Hi Steven!
I see you are from Scotland. I have ancestors down in the Southwest of Scotland. Their progeny drifted to America and some (my family) ended up in Texas before it joined the Union (became a US state).
Steven wrote: "Hi everyone,Wow, there are a lot of Stevens in this group. I am a writer of a HF novel placed during the Civil War,and I've published a couple of straight history articles and other things.I have..."
Hi Steven!
I hope you are well and I am glad to welcome you to the site, I am from Scotland as well. I will be getting in touch with you to pick your brains; and hopefully get some pointers as I'm new to the novel writing game. I start an OU course next year in creative writing and I am always looking for help and advice. Don't worry it won't be to the point of pestering you I will only ask when I'm stuck. But nice to have your acquaintance. Thank you.
Gordon wrote: "Steven wrote: "Hi everyone,Wow, there are a lot of Stevens in this group. I am a writer of a HF novel placed during the Civil War,and I've published a couple of straight history articles and othe..."
I look forward to it. Writers helping writers! Maybe we'll exchange requests for help on the work. I am pleased to meet you also.
I've been fielding off comments about the use of Scots language in my novel - readers who struggle with what they call 'regional dialect'. Should I add a glossary? I was hoping that such words could be guessed from the context. I'm reluctant to 'bawdlerise' as I think Scots words add to the flavour. Any opinions on this?
Marie wrote: "I've been fielding off comments about the use of Scots language in my novel - readers who struggle with what they call 'regional dialect'. Should I add a glossary? I was hoping that such words coul..."Hi Marie,
I have appreciated glossaries in many of HF novels I've read. They help understanding though sometimes having to refer to them breaks up the flow of my reading. This can irritate if I have to do it too much.
That being said, I have read some books that are otherwise good reads where the 'foreign' words and dialectic constructions remind me of all those hucksters at Renaissance Fairs or actors in high school theater Shakespeare plays. It makes it seem contrived. I want the story more than I want (too much) local flavor. (IMHO)I think the key is not over using. I think of Bernard Cornwell and his Irish soldiers - we get some of language construction but mostly he lets his characters talk.
I just joined goodreads and this group, so I'm the new kid on the block. In fact, I noticed under the heading "members" a note that says I have no friends here. I hope that will change soon. I recently completed a family memoir. (I'm hoping to get final proofs next week.) So aside from marketing (time-consuming huh?) I'm ready to get on with my novel. It's about a big band canary who marries a farmer and moves to the middle of the country where her home isn't close to anything but the stars. Her husband is a combat veteran with what we would now call PTSD and my singer will sustain abuse at the hands of her OB that will leave her in similar condition. Based on a true story. My problem is that I don't quite know where to look for things like how a singer would get her job? Where would she audition, what would the place look like? That sort of thing. I don't know how to describe an apartment in Cleveland that's being rented by a family on the margins of being on the street. So if anyone knows of resources, that would be great.
So that's my challenge. The good news is I love my characters.
Conversely, I have accumulated a pretty large store of source material on WWII in the Pacific, especially a unit called Bushmasters, the 158th Regimantal Combat Team. So if any of that material would be helpful, I'd be happy to share.
Anyway, I'm eager to correspond with other people who are writing historical novels, to share challenges and triumphs -- especially the triumphs.
Faith A. Colburn
I just sent you a friend request, Faith, so if you accept it, you will have at least one. :)Welcome! And best wishes.
C.P. wrote: "I just sent you a friend request, Faith, so if you accept it, you will have at least one. :)Welcome! And best wishes."
Hey thanks. I feel a little less like an orphan.
Faith wrote: "Hey thanks. I feel a little less like an orphan."You're most welcome.
Faith wrote: "I just joined goodreads and this group, so I'm the new kid on the block. In fact, I noticed under the heading "members" a note that says I have no friends here. I hope that will change soon. I rece..."Hi Faith! I too am quite a new member as well and I have found that everyone that I have had contact with on this site are very warm and friendly. So I welcome you with open arms and I to would like to be added to your friends list. I hope you have a great time on this site. If I can help you in any way I will be Glad to. Many Thanks and Welcome.
I've not been here for a while. I went away for two weeks of intensive and solitary writing - but it was on the shores of Northumberland, opposite Holy Island. Such was the distraction of the beauty of the place and the thousands of wintering ducks and geese, that I only clocked 7,000 words. But I did write a chapter about a blind girl on a 16thC shore - I practised walking the sand dunes with closed eyes and feeling the texture of the marram grass. Another chapter came that involved a shipwreck on the Goodwin Sands (a fearful place known as the Ship Swallower). The miles of Northumberland sand at low water was a good place to wander and muse for that one.
So - only 7k when there should have been at least 20k. All is not lost though - I walked miles and feel renewed.
Harry wrote: "I've not been here for a while. I went away for two weeks of intensive and solitary writing - but it was on the shores of Northumberland, opposite Holy Island. Such was the distraction of the beaut..."Hi Harry! Sounds like you had a grate time my friend, just a passing thought struck me about the topics that you have been writing about. Could you not incorporate both these stories into one, A blind girl who has the gift of knowing the pathways of the treacherous sands and comes to the aid of a shipwrecked mysterious character. This sounds like it could be the start of a new book. all the best my friend.
Gordon wrote: "Hi everyone I am pleased to say I've just recently joined this group as I'm an avid historical novel reader.I hope to gain some advice and assistance, as I'm in the throws of writing my first histo..."Hello Gordon,
All the best with that. Now that the first part of my trilogy has been publisher, am trying to get the energy - & inspiration - for the second part. Would love to do what Harry has done - & disappear for a while to recharge the batteries. A word of warning - promoting a novel can be much harder work then writing it!
I would second the warning about promoting a novel -- any book. Maybe it's harder because I'd much rather be writing than marketing.
Faith wrote: "Nothing like actual experience to make the writing more authentic. Those 7,000 words are probably better words than they might have been if you'd just focused on writing. Coincidentally, I just (ho..."It was supposed to be a NANOrimo exercise but I soon gave up. Instead I did rewrites of scenes in the hope that these new characters would begin to live - and to walk the landscape alongside me.
That's a thoughtful piece about landscape, Faith. Your blog is worth a visit.
i>Gordon wrote: "Harry wrote: "I've not been here for a while. I went away for two weeks of intensive and solitary writing - but it was on the shores of Northumberland, opposite Holy Island. Such was the distractio..."Hello, Gordon. Good points you make, and the melding of the situations is indeed partly underway. This should be a sequel to my first 'definitive English novel', the one that Waterstones Booksellers, Scarborough, declined to put on their shelves today. I donated that particular copy to the public library just around the corner - the charming librarian seemed quite overcome.
Harry wrote: "Faith wrote: "Nothing like actual experience to make the writing more authentic. Those 7,000 words are probably better words than they might have been if you'd just focused on writing. Coincidental..."Thank you for your kind words. I don't blog very often, but I always try to give something useful to the people who read it.
Marie wrote: "Gordon wrote: "Hi everyone I am pleased to say I've just recently joined this group as I'm an avid historical novel reader.I hope to gain some advice and assistance, as I'm in the throws of writing..."Yes, be cautious in your optimism. Last year I left eight copies of my novel with a bookseller in Northallerton, 'on sale or return'. Today I discovered his bookshop premises is under new ownership and sells knitting wool. The bookman closed down, cleared out, and vanished without settling with me or giving me the chance to reclaim the books.
Faith wrote: "I would second the warning about promoting a novel -- any book. Maybe it's harder because I'd much rather be writing than marketing."I couldn't agree with you more! Too bad it's necessary to do that marketing. :-)
Harry wrote: "Hello Marie, that is interesting. I've followed your link. Sept 9th next year is the 500th anniversary of Flodden (as you will know). There are to be commemorations. (It was a tragedy for Scotland ..."I now have both your book and Marie's on my to be read soon list, since I come from Scottish forebears. Has anyone produced a flier about the commemorations, dates and locations and the like? I'd be thrilled to know what's happening and when.
Faith wrote: "Harry wrote: "Hello Marie, that is interesting. I've followed your link. Sept 9th next year is the 500th anniversary of Flodden (as you will know). There are to be commemorations. (It was a tragedy..."That's lovely news on this bitingly cold day.
This site: http://www.flodden1513.com/
will take you around Flodden and what's doing.
Harry wrote: "Faith wrote: "Harry wrote: "Hello Marie, that is interesting. I've followed your link. Sept 9th next year is the 500th anniversary of Flodden (as you will know). There are to be commemorations. (It..."Thanks so much for the link. I'm pretty broke from taking care of some deferred maintenance, but it would be lovely if I could get to Scotland this summer . . .
It's a little chilly here, too, but we haven't had a real winter in almost 30 years and we're dealing with drought conditions right now.
Hi Tom, I'll certainly keep a close eye on what's happening for the Flodden anniversary. Will it be on the website? Attention in Scotland is more likely to be on 2014 - anniversary of Bannockburn!
Marie wrote: "Hi Tom, I'll certainly keep a close eye on what's happening for the Flodden anniversary. Will it be on the website? Attention in Scotland is more likely to be on 2014 - anniversary of Bannockburn!"
It will be on that website - and on the others it links to. I've booked a cottage for the week.
I've just had two weeks in Northumberland, on a solitary writing experience. The wildfowl around Lindisfarne was a distraction; I managed only 7k words.
By the way, I'm Harry. Tom is the main character in my novel - but perhaps he is me anyway!
Harry wrote: "Marie wrote: "Hi Tom, I'll certainly keep a close eye on what's happening for the Flodden anniversary. Will it be on the website? Attention in Scotland is more likely to be on 2014 - anniversary ..."
Oops! Sorry Harry! Or do I mean Dick? !!!!
I'm betting that those peewits and shore footprints and sea dragons and pagan totems will turn up somewhere in a novel by Harry Nicholson.
Thanks, Marie. Only one copy has gone out in this particular galaxy this month. But I'm enjoying writing the sequel: today the research has been - how to turn about a Portuguese caravel in confined waters.
Harry wrote: "Thanks, Marie. Only one copy has gone out in this particular galaxy this month. But I'm enjoying writing the sequel: today the research has been - how to turn about a Portuguese caravel in confine..."
How about drop the sail or loose it if not much wind, drop the anchor, over-run it and swing and then reset sail and pickup?
James wrote: "Harry wrote: "Thanks, Marie. Only one copy has gone out in this particular galaxy this month. But I'm enjoying writing the sequel: today the research has been - how to turn about a Portuguese cara..."
James writes:
'How about drop the sail or loose it if not much wind, drop the anchor, over-run it and swing and then reset sail and pickup?'
reply:
Thank you, James. I'd not considered that - it would 'turn it on a sixpence' so to speak.
But in this case it could take too long. I could widen the seaway (it is a channel in the Goodwin Sands) so she can drop the square foresail and come about quickly by means of the tiller and her two lateens. Speed is essential - astern there is a pursuing Barbary galley suddenly crippled by an exploded culverin. There are captives to be released. The caravel could be there in one tack (ahem! If I make it so . . .)
Atlantic rain is here, interspersed with watery sun. The piles of snow are rotting away and all the uneaten bird feed is slowly revealed. The hillside is black and white - bare woods against snow, with an acre or two of green pasture slashed here and there.I've had lunch and some white wine and am now trying to take the novel further. In the last chapter, the parish priest got drunk and passed out beneath the table. Two brothers are helping to sail a captured Barbary galley. I've no idea where it is going . . .
We got a tiny big of rain here in the middle of the U.S. this time of year its supposed to be cold. And it's supposed to snow. It is VERY dry.
Leonide wrote: "I just found this group and am delighted to join. Learning more about writing HF is most relevant since this is my post-retirement avocation. My focus in writing HF is ancient Maya culture. For the..."Hi and Welcome. Wow!! That's ambitious. I thought it was difficult to get information and context just 250 years ago! Even fifty years ago can be a challenge if no one wants to talk.
Rosalie wrote: "I don't know where to post this but I want to invite y'all to read the prologue of my next book, MARCH WITH ME, which is HF set against the backdrop of the Civil Rights Movement in Birmingham, AL i..."Wow! I was drawn in. Kept waiting for an explosion at the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church.
James wrote: "Hi Folks,Wonderful to find a site for people interested in history and historical literature. I am from the UK and was grew up in an area rich in the past. I was born on the slopes of an Iron Age ..."
Hi James, It's wonderful to read what the British people have to say about their history. I can remember being in New England (USA) and seeing signs indicating towns were organized in the Eighteenth Century. I was humbled by the antiquity of the places. But you have CENTURIES to play around with.
Of course, that doesn't mean my continent doesn't have a similarly long history, just that most of it is oral history and harder to access, since most of my ancestors came from your side of the pond.
Welcome James,Your experience mirrors mine to a certain extent as I was brought up on the site of a historic battle in an area brimming with history - in Scotland. So much so that you intend to take it all for granted - until older when you want to find out the background to all those stories & legends and pass it on to others - in a lively fictional way.
Faith wrote: "James wrote: "Hi Folks,Wonderful to find a site for people interested in history and historical literature. I am from the UK and was grew up in an area rich in the past. I was born on the slopes o..."
Not just Centuries but Millenia. We moved to an area in South Wales that had a castle. I had been there for the Medieval Banquet so I knew all about that but on the side road up to the highway every day I passed a loose stone wall about six feet high that seemed to go on forever. When I enquired I found it was the town wall of a Roman city, in Welsh Caerwent in Latin Venta Silures. On the north side there is a Pub with a beer garden and on a summers day one can quaff a beer under the old Roman North Gate to the city. As Marie says, with so much riches of history we get on with our lives and ignore it. If I had not enquired and persisted in researching I would never have heard of the Halig Rood. They certainly didn't tell us about it at school, which incidentally was built next to the Priory Gatehouse, the Priory having been built by Robert of Mortain in penance for the massacre carried out in his name. It happened because he insisted on despoiling a Saxon holy Christian site.
As far as Caerwent was concerned no one locally took any notice of it or even mentioned it. Of course, although archaeological digs had established the plan of the city nothing had been done at that time to make it accessible to the public or to at least build an exhibition centre with models or computer graphics of the original.
Marie wrote: "Welcome James,Your experience mirrors mine to a certain extent as I was brought up on the site of a historic battle in an area brimming with history - in Scotland. So much so that you intend to ta..."
I did a course, part of which was concerned with National Identity Myth building. We actually concentrated on Ireland but it strikes me that we could equally well have spent the time on Scotland. Nowadays we talk about the border as if it has always been where it is and north of it there is a genetically distinct group called the Scots and below it the English. No one ever mentions that Edinburgh was built by and was part of the English kingdom of Northumbria. On the west side Galloway and Cumbria stretched from Loch Lomond to the North Riding. Many of the lowland Scots, I heard, are descended from the starving English refugees of the Harrowing of the North. We never hear, at least in English schools, of the aid given by King Malcolm to the Atheling and northern Earls against the Normans.
The separation of Scotland from England seems to be a modern identity myth. Without, not just, our history but some knowledge of it we can be the dupes of demagogues. I think there is a niche for authors of well researched historical novels in that.
Hello, James. It's good to read you here. (I'm part way through your 'The Axe, The Shield and The Triton')My novel, 'Tom Fleck' is set in the Tudor borderlands. After reading your post about the kinship of folk on both sides, I unearthed this piece in my files about the same issue. I wrote it for a blog interview:
For the background to the characters in 'Tom Fleck', I kept in mind:
1. The Anglian kingdom of Northumbria ran up the east coast from the Humber as far as the Firth of Forth. The Anglian settlers overlaid two main tribes of Britons, the Parisii and the Brigantes. Later Danish intrusion and settlement was mainly Yorkshire. Durham, Northumberland, and the Scottish Borders east of the Cheviots remained essentially Anglian (the northern division of the Anglo-Saxons). In view of this:
2. The people of Durham, Northumberland, and the mid and eastern Scottish Borders as far as the Forth derive from a common culture and language. Archaic words (many still used) in NE English are frequent in modern Scots. Both sides of the border once had a common culture and language.
3. The boundary we find in Tudor times is almost identical to today's, but earlier it was fluid (for a short period after the Norman conquest the realm of Scotland extended to the Tees and so included Durham and Northumberland).
4. The modern border was fixed by Norman/English and Norman/Scottish monarchs. That frontier cut through an Anglian population, divided it, caused language drift, and fostered antipathy.
5. International conflict was initiated and managed by the descendants of Norman overlords (with at least the exception of the Bulmer family, who were Anglo-Saxon survivors). The foot soldiers on both sides were largely of common Anglian or British descent, with a stiffening of Dane. These people had to follow their master's bidding.
6. The border raiders, the rievers: This activity for profit was often based on clan rivalry rather than international ill-will. Families on both sides of the Tweed recognised each other as relatives, banded together and made joint raids on other clan families on either side of the border. Their loyalty was to each other as much as their respective monarchs.
.................
I wish the politicians who preach the dismemberment of the United Kingdom had a sense of history that went beyond Mel Gibson and that technicolour pack of distortions, 'Braveheart'.
V interesting summary, Harry. I would agree that the Lowlanders of Scotland have more in common with the Northumbrians than the Gaelic speaking highlanders. History is repeating itself as we dispute the Debatable Lands. (Is it true that Northumberland would prefer to join Scotland if given the choice?!!! :D)
Marie asks:(Is it true that Northumberland would prefer to join Scotland if given the choice?!!! :D)I have a feeling that a few years ago it might have been so - among some Northumbrians. Now though, I sense the utterances of certain Scots politicians are raising up old emotions so that folk are weary to the point of saying: 'away with ye', 'give over' and 'get on wi' it and on your head be it'.
Harry wrote: "Hello, James. It's good to read you here. (I'm part way through your 'The Axe, The Shield and The Triton')My novel, 'Tom Fleck' is set in the Tudor borderlands. After reading your post about the k..."
I hope you enjoy it, the endorsement of a respected practitioner is always valuable validation.
I have kindled your Tom Fleck, not because its cheap although it is and because I believe I will enjoy the story but also because Herself is a nut about the Tudor period but has not strayed further north in reading about it than the captivity of Mary Queen of Scots. This will extend her Tudor world horizon.
Harry wrote: "Marie asks:(Is it true that Northumberland would prefer to join Scotland if given the choice?!!! :D)I have a feeling that a few years ago it might have been so - among some Northumbrians. Now thou..."
Was this not because the Canny Geordies had spotted that they got a better deal, no doubt financed by the English taxpayer, north of the Tweed than south of the Tees?
James wrote: "Harry wrote: "Marie asks:(Is it true that Northumberland would prefer to join Scotland if given the choice?!!! :D)I have a feeling that a few years ago it might have been so - among some Northumbr..."
Perhaps you are right, James. Will Braveheart or bus passes win the day? Here's a ditty I made up:
Did William Wallace spill his blood
For rubber stamps in Holyrood?
Is this the long awaited hour
For sleepers on Culloden Moor?
........
I hope Tom Fleck goes well.
Marie wrote: "but also because Herself is a nut about the Tudor period but has not strayed further north in reading about it than the captivity of Mary Queen of Scots. This will extend her Tudor world horizon. ..."
I will certainly put it to her Marie, she is just in recovery from the removal of a major 'ladylump' and isn't reading anything right now. I have already looked at the Amazon site, and refreshed my memory about John Knox in WikiP. There is enough information there for her to judge, although I should say she is not at all churchly and might not take to the subject matter but I'm often wrong. I was wrong about how far north she went in her Tudor readings, she is a devotee of Catherine of Aragon and therefore followed her to Flodden so I guess Northumbria is the limit. Knox's connection with the times of Mary Queen of Scots and her mum will be the hook.
James wrote: "Marie wrote: "but also because Herself is a nut about the Tudor period but has not strayed further north in reading about it than the captivity of Mary Queen of Scots. This will extend her Tudor wo..."I see it is not available yet so I have pre-ordered it. When she recovers in a few days she has a book on the go. An Anne Rivers Siddons one. I know her preference is historical Tudor period. She has read everything that Philippa Gregory has written plus a number of similar others who I forget. So your book will come as a welcome change from the offshore islands of the American South.
Thanks for that James. I was just about to say I did wonder if highlighting Knox in the publicity was a good idea but as Scottish Field says my novel is no dour Calvinist slog but a page-turner from beginning to end. (My original title was The Abbess of Unreason, as it also features Elisabeth Hepburn. It is available in h/b but p/b comes out on 6 March.
Now attempting Knox's complicated relationship with women - 2 wives, 3 queens, a mad mother-in-law, a godmother and a wheen of groupies. John Knox 'Babe Magnet' might be a better title! Best wishes to your wife on a speedy recover. M
Marie wrote: "Thanks for that James. I was just about to say I did wonder if highlighting Knox in the publicity was a good idea but as Scottish Field says my novel is no dour Calvinist slog but a page-turner fro..."Thank you for that Marie
Your description sounds, as you say, a million miles from the dour Calvinist. I'm am sure Herself will enjoy it.
Marie wrote: "but also because Herself is a nut about the Tudor period but has not strayed further north in reading about it than the captivity of Mary Queen of Scots. This will extend her Tudor world horizon. ..."
Will you be making it available for Kindle?
Writing Historical Fiction
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