Etymology and the Origins of Words & Expressions

[Ruth]

My grandmother grew up in New York and Connecticut.

[Ken, Moderator]

Maybe egg sucking never hit it big in my little town. Maybe we were too busy with our "Catholic relax ethic."

[Malcolm]

I like the phrase 'sphere of corruption' which I understand to be a Platonic expression for the earth and dead and decaying matter.

Could anyone please enlighten me further?

[Malcolm]

BunWat wrote: "Heee!
A new one. The part in the marriage service where one promises to "Love, honor and cherish." Historian Seth Leher suggests this is not an instance of using three words with slightly differ..."

In Britain the formula is/was to 'love, honour and obey' but since the 1970s and the sexual revolution women have been allowed to use their discretion with regard to including the word 'obey' in the marriage service. To inclued the word the service is said to be a "traditional" ceremony.

If I recall correctly, it was a talking point of Lady Diana Spencer and Prince Charles' nuptuials that the blushing bride chose to exercise her discretion.

[Ruth]

It used to be love honor and obey here in the US, too.

[Ken, Moderator]

Reading I Is an Other: The Secret Life of Metaphor and How it Shapes the Way We See the World which provides a lot of origins of metaphoric expressions and words. Interesting! Here are a few for fans of such truck, according to author James Geary:

1. Scared shitless -- "...derives from the physiological fact that animals in stressful situations -- an antelope pursued by a lion, for example -- involuntarily defecate to shed excess weight, thus speeding their flight."

2. Parting shot -- "When you take a parting shot at someone, flinging one last insult before you depart, you are reenacting a battlefield technique perfected by the ancient Parthians. The Parthians, who lived near the Caspian Sea around the first century B.C.E., were expert archers and horsemen. They lured enemies into the open by feigning retreat. Then, as their opponents advanced in hot (a metaphor for angry or impassioned) pursuit, they turned in their saddles and picked them off with their arrows, a practice known as the Parthian shot."

3. Beyond the pale -- "...venturing outside the limits of the acceptable by going beyond the wooden stakes ('pale' comes from the Latin palus, meaning 'pole' or 'stake,' as in the English word 'impaled') that marked the edge of a settlement in the Middle Ages. Fences made of wooden pales often surrounded medieval towns and villages, demarcating the point beyond which it was considered unsafe -- or unacceptable -- to go."

4. Fathom -- "...comes from the Anglo-Saxon foethm, meaning 'the two arms outstretched.' The term was originally used as a measurement of cloth, because the distance from fingertip to fingertip for the average man with his arms outstretched is roughly six feet. This technique was later extended to sounding the depths of bodies of water, since it was easy to lower a cord divided into six feet increments, or fathoms, over the side of the boat."

[Malcolm]

Newengland wrote: "Re: Mormons. Isn't the key to that church's success the fact that each member must fork over 10% (is it?) of their personal income?

Ka-chinggggggg!"

But that is the traditional method of most churches. Look up the word tithe.

[Malcolm]

Newengland wrote: "Unfamiliar with Rasmussen's stuff, I fear. I kind of OD'd on Twainia and started focusing more on Twain's writing itself a few years back.

Bunny, I was lucky enough to receive the entire Oxford..."

I'm confused, are you male or female? Originally I thought you were male. More recently I've thought you female. And now I see you have a good wyfe. For the sake of my sanity please could you clear the matter up?

[Malcolm]

David wrote: "The word of the day for us gringos is, of course, "turkey."

The "turkey" did not come from Turkey, but from the New World. The French call it dinde, which means "from India," and in Brazil it's ca..."

Surely not. I thought turkey was as common to America as chicken is to England.

I assumed that Cole Oorter phrase was a reference to the annual Thanks-Giving dinners, presumably dating back to the time of the Mayflower.

[Malcolm]

Debbie wrote: "How about this! (For those who always wondered).

Tempest in a teapot
Meaning

A small or unimportant event that is over-reacted to, as if it were of considerably more consequence.

Origin
..."

To my ears, as an Englishman, I think tempest in a tea cup has a better ring to it.

[Malcolm]

Newengland wrote: "And I once knew a guy who, upon hearing his buddy had gotten a girl pregnant, shouted, "Didn't you have any condiments?"

Puts a whole new spin on the baseball phrase "bringing the mustard.""

Irish comedian Spike Milligan joked: Contraceptives should be worn on all conceivable occasions

[Malcolm]

Newengland wrote: "Odd that "tempest in a teapot" is most often heard in the States, considering both terms are so British -- Tempest thanks to Shakespeare, and teapot thanks to the Brits' little afternoon habit (her..."

Newengland wrote: "Odd that "tempest in a teapot" is most often heard in the States, considering both terms are so British -- Tempest thanks to Shakespeare, and teapot thanks to the Brits' little afternoon habit (her..."

Tea is drank all day here. However, high tea, is a snack meal devised in the 18th when the times betwwn meals were longer apart. Some countess or duchess wanted a light meal in the afternoon, set a trend, and the rest is history.

[edit] I'm trying to track down the history.

AFTERNOON TEA ( The
traditional 4 o 'clock tea )
This is a small meal , not a
drink. Traditionally it consists
of tea ( or coffee ) served
with either of the followin.

This from www.afternoontea.co.uk

Afternoon Tea History
Tea consumption increased
dramatically during the early
nineteenth century and it is
around this time that Anna,
the 7 th Duchess of Bedford
is said to have complained of
"having that sinking feeling "
during the late afternoon. At
the time it was usual for
people to take only two main
meals a day , breakfast , and
dinner at around 8 o 'clock in
the evening . The solution for
the Duchess was a pot a tea
and a light snack, taken
privately in her boudoir
during the afternoon.
Later friends were invited to
join her in her rooms at
Woburn Abbey and this
summer practice proved so
popular that the Duchess
continued it when she
returned to London , sending
cards to her friends asking
them to join her for "tea and
a walking the fields ." Other
social hostesses quickly
picked up on the idea and the
practice became respectable
enough to move it into the
drawing room. Before long
all of fashionable society was
sipping tea and nibbling
sandwiches in the middle of
the afternoon.
Occasionally you will see
hotels serving a ‘ high tea '.
Traditionally , the upper
classes would serve a ‘ low '
or ‘ afternoon' tea around
four o 'clock , just before the
fashionable promenade in
Hyde Park . The middle and
lower classes would have a
more substantial ‘ high ' tea
later in the day , at five or six
o 'clock , in place of a late
dinner. The names derive
from the height of the tables
on which the meals are
served, high tea being served
at the dinner table .
Many visitors from overseas
still imagine that we are a
nation where , in the words of
the well -known song , ‘ at half
past three , everything stops
for tea '. Sadly these days
Afternoon Tea is usually only
an occasional luxury for the
British; a birthday treat in a
country house hotel, or a
welcome break from a hectic
days shopping ‘ in town'.
Luckily the tourist is still able
to indulge in a little bit of
British tradition for him or
herself .

[Malcolm]

Anna wrote: "This just came up in another group, but does anyone know how, why or when billet-doux (french letter) came to mean condom? I'm so curious. "

It is an exchange of letters between two people merely.

I'm unsure of the correct term, perhaps a pun of some sort. But as billet-doux is French for an exchange of (love) letters, some wag or wit decided that "french letter" would be a suitable euphemism for a comdom in polite company or were too embarrassed to ask for condoms in a shop/chemist.

[Ruth]

Is drank, Malcolm? Is drank???

[Malcolm]

Ruth wrote: "Is drank, Malcolm? Is drank???"

Lol. I'm a speaker of English merely and not a teacher of it. When it comes to writing, we professionals have editors employed to take care of the finer points and such niceties.

Blame my editors for wanting me to produce (worry over) the wordage/word count alone, and to let them take care of punctuation and grammar :o)

[edit] In some instances I don't have to write at all but simply phone my views and opinions into the office. The secretaries then have the task of writing it up for press.

[Ruth]

Malcolm wrote: "Ruth wrote: "Is drank, Malcolm? Is drank???"

Lol. I'm a speaker of English merely and not a teacher of it. When it comes to writing, we professionals have editors employed to take care of the..."

Seems a strange attitude for one who is a member of the Language and Grammar group. But I guess it is what it is.

[Malcolm]

Ruth wrote: "Malcolm wrote: "Ruth wrote: "Is drank, Malcolm? Is drank???"

Lol. I'm a speaker of English merely and not a teacher of it. When it comes to writing, we professionals have editors employed to ta..."

Why is that strange? Surely you can't be so pedantic to expect every English speaker to be correct in all matters of language and grammar?

I'm only aware of correct usage when these things are pointed out to me pedantically. Although I may have an interest in language, grammar, word games etc, I'd be the first to admit I am no grammarian, if there even is such a word :o)

[John]

CAN'T WE PLEASE JUST ALL GET ALONG?

[Malcolm]

John wrote: "CAN'T WE PLEASE JUST ALL GET ALONG?"

Nice sentiments. I wasn't arguing or being picky. I was more than happy to clarify my position and alleviate Ruth of her confusion :o)

Drank or drunk aren't people allowed the odd spelling mistake now and then? The question is put rhetorically and generally.

[John]

I don't think Ruth was ever confused.

[Ruth]

Malcolm, I just found it strange that someone who professes to be so interested in Language and Grammar, says he doesn't want to be bothered with it and will leave it to the editors.

Just wondering, not casting stones.

[Malcolm]

I didn't profess to be so interested in anything. You've just made that up. I was charmed by alliteration ss a child. My teachers suggested I ought to be a writer/journalist. In my day there was only menial jobs for black people. And after getting bullied throughout my schooldays there was no way I was going to work with the general public.

Fortunately my imperfect writing skills saved me from having to go out to work (not that I would've anyhow) and I have been able to work from home away from racists and what other bullies there may be.

I was bullied so much at school that I refused to sit exams or to consider further education at university level regardless how deep my interest in English literature may be.

A spelling mistake such as drank/drunk is such a trivial matter. Is my grammar really that bad?

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

Malcolm said,
"I'm only aware of correct usage when these things are pointed out to me pedantically. Although I may have an interest in language, grammar, word games etc, ..."

As far as I can see, that means that Ruth did not make it up. Malcolm, skin colour is not an issue on this forum for obvious reasons. If you are feeling bullied, that would appear to be your problem, not anyone else's. I certainly can't see that Ruth has been bullying anyone. She merely pointed out that the spelling error you made changed the meaning of what you said....and yes....that CAN matter.

[Ruth]

Nope, Malcolm. Your grammar's generally fine, and I just assumed your presence here predicated an interest in language and grammar.

No offense intended. Really.

[Malcolm]

Debbie wrote: "Malcolm said,
"I'm only aware of correct usage when these things are pointed out to me pedantically. Although I may have an interest in language, grammar, word games etc, ..."

As far as I can s..."

As far as I can see I said I may have an interest in etc but I did not profess to be SO interested as to be that bothered by trivial spelling mistakes.

I'm sure that I'm not the only one to make the odd spelling mistake from time to time or have I surrounded myself here at L&G with so much pedantic perfection.

In her comment Ruth said nothing of a change of meaning. Se merely said drank. Now you're reading things not originally said by Ruth.

As far as skin colour is concerned it was an issue during my schooldays enough to explain why my grammar may not be as good as Ruth's or anyone elses. I mentioned the bullying by way of an illustration of why my grammar may not be as it ought.

It's 01:00 here. I must be up at 07:00 I have sleep and a life to be getting on with.

[Malcolm]

May I point out if I had been white and fat at school I would've been bullied for that, or if I had ginger hair, or a freckly face or had been a German. However, I was black with a speech impediment and I was bullied for that. Ok. End of. Sweet dreams all.

[Ruth]

Look, Malcolm. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Somehow I missed all that about bullying. I certainly didn't intend to bully you.

[John]

...

[Malcolm]

Malcolm wrote: "Newengland wrote: "Odd that "tempest in a teapot" is most often heard in the States, considering both terms are so British -- Tempest thanks to Shakespeare, and teapot thanks to the Brits' little a..."

I love coffee , I love tea
I love the java jive and it
loves me
Coffee and tea and the jiving
and me
A cup, a cup, a cup, a cup, a
cup!

I had a quick glance on the net earlier. There are countless drank vs drunk sites. Here is what was in just one of them. Others may differ, but honestly I just haven't the time.

Drink , Drank, Drunk ?

Kevin asks:

I am writing to ask you about
the proper usage of the verb
drink. More to the point , I 'm
wondering about the usage
of drank versus drunk . It 's
one of those issues that no
one I 've talked to agrees
upon, and I personally think
drank is past tense, while
drunk is (?) conditional . I
drank a lot last night; I have
drunk many beers today.

"Drink " is what grammarians
call a "strong" verb that
changes tense with an
internal change ; a "weak"
verb just adds "ed " to the
original verb . Strong verbs
include "think / thought ,"
"run / ran," "teach/ taught,"
and "stink / stank ." Weak
verbs include "love / loved ,"
"smile/ smiled ," and "ask/
asked. "

My dictionary says "drunk " is
an archaic past tense of
"drink." Several hundred
years ago, we might have
said "I drunk a lot last night. "
But now we'd say "I drank a
lot last night," as you
suggest .

"Drunk" is also a past
participle of "drink, " so it
would be used as you
suggest in your second
example. And as a participle
it is also a "verbal adjective"
that can modify nouns and
pronouns or even act as a
noun itself :

He is a convicted drunk
driver .

He is a lifelong drunk .

Anyone fancy a cup of Joe?

[Ruth]

You can say, "Yesterday I drank a cup of tea." It's past tense.

But "Tea is drank," doesn't work. You have to say, "Tea is drunk."

I'll leave it to NE or others who know the lingo of grammar better than I do to explain why. I'm pretty much a seat-of-the-pants grammarian.

[Malcolm]

As I was glancing at the net this old Andrews Sisters classic came to mind:

I love coffee , I love tea
I love the java jive and it
loves me
Coffee and tea and the jiving
and me
A cup, a cup, a cup, a cup, a
cup!

It struck me that that last line 'A cup, a cup, a cup, a cup, a cup!', may be the reason why we Brits enjoy "a cuppa" as opposed to "a cup of".

I'm not sure if the phrase "cuppa" was coined by an advertising agency in the 1960s or it has an origin earlier than even those jive talkin' Andrews Sisters.

The following lyric was a hit song of the 30s or 40s in Britain:

A NICE CUP OF TEA
( Herbert / Sullivan )
I like a nice cup of tea in the morning
For to start the day you see
And at half- past eleven
Well my idea of Heaven
Is a nice cup of tea
I like a nice cup of tea with my dinner
And a nice cup of tea with my tea
And when it 's time for bed
There 's a lot to be said
For a nice cup of tea

In the 1960s it was adapted for an ad campaign as 'I like a nice cuppa tea'. Coincidence?

[Malcolm]

Ruth wrote: "You can say, "Yesterday I drank a cup of tea." It's past tense.

But "Tea is drank," doesn't work. You have to say, "Tea is drunk."

I'll leave it to NE or others who know the lingo of grammar be..."

We drank tea at the vicar's tea party or maybe we drunk tea with the vicar? Where is that nice Newengland when needed? Hey Newengland, fancy a cup of Joe? Then wake up and smell the coffee. Ruth and I need enlightening :o)

[Malcolm]

From www.westegg.com/etymology I discovered this:

opf ( German ) Head
From Latin "cuppa, " meaning
"cup"; the Romans used the
cup as a metaphor for the
upper part of the head .
Similarly, another Latin word
for "cup," "testa ," has now
become the French "Tête,"
for "head ," too. Note that
both the Germans and the
Celts used a "skullcap " "top
of the human head ") as a
drinking vessel; this was part
of the honoring of the enemy
ritual . Thus related to "chief "
and "capital" ( and "testicle "
as well ) .

[Malcolm]

I always thought 'testicle' had the same root as orchid!

[Malcolm]

I usually depend upon Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable if I need to look something up. And my researches are narrowed to my own personal interests mostly. If I pick up a wider knowledge of other things along the way then well and good.

But I'm not an expert on any matter. Joining this group, however, and peering in the odd folder such as this may teach me something new. I may have a casual interest in such matters as etymology, language and grammar, but I'd be the first to admit I am no expert. It is not a discipline of mine or anything like that.

[Ruth]

Malcolm wrote: "I always thought 'testicle' had the same root as orchid!"

As in orchidectomy?

[Malcolm]

Yeh something like that. And because of the Colonel Bogey song 'Hitler has only got one ball. . .'

As far as I remember because of the similarity between an orchid bulb and the human testicle, the testicle derived its name from orchid. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

Yeh something like that. And because of the Colonel Bogey song 'Hitler has only got one ball. . .'

As far as I remember because of the similarity between an orchid bulb and the human testicle, the testicle derived its name from orchid. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

I mean, there's a medical condition for those whose balls haven't dropped, and for those with just one ball which both start as you suggest with 'orchid'

orchidectomy being the removal of i.e. castration.