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Pro-life or Pro-choice > Pro-choice

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message 1: by [deleted user] (new)

Pammy!!!!! I am sorry but this is an important thing for me


message 2: by Emma (new)

Emma  Blue (litlover) Emma


message 3: by Lara (last edited Jul 12, 2008 01:56PM) (new)

Lara Torgesen Lara. Although I prefer the term Pro-choice but whatever you want to call me.


message 4: by Brigid ✩ (new)

Brigid ✩ Brigid.
like lara, i prefer the term pro-choice though. saying pro-abortion makes it sound like we're heartless baby-killers or something. what we support is the choice, not necessarily the abortion itself. just making that clear.


message 5: by [deleted user] (new)

Yeah like I said b4 change it to Pro-Choice


message 6: by Emma (new)

Emma  Blue (litlover) NO ONE IS PRO-ABORTION! No one wants abortion! And if I were to have a child, I would put it up for adoption. But women should have the right to choices! Period!


message 7: by [deleted user] (new)

Ya!


message 8: by Mary Catherine (new)

Mary Catherine | 13 comments So you are saying Brigid, people should have a choice between being a heartless baby-killer and not being a heartless baby-killer?


message 9: by Vieve (new)

Vieve | 7 comments Under your brand of CHOICE, Brigid, Pammy and Emma, fall quite a number of things: choosing to give life, choosing to kill a life, choosing to give a baby in adoption. You can't really take offence at being called pro-abortion, if you are indeed pro-choice. To be able to kill a baby is one of your "choices." Pro-choice, of course, "sounds" nicer than pro-abortion. It's never too "nice" kill a baby. We can't be for something, but also against something...that's a contradiction.


Quite honestly, if "no one wants abortion," then there would be no abortion. Let's face reality: if "pro-choicers" are also pro-life, why are they not promoting life? When I hear pro-choicers speaking they are demanding the choice to kill babies.


message 10: by Clare D' Lune (new)

Clare D' Lune | 88 comments So really, If you are Pro-choice, then so am I. I support a different choice, but hey! Its a choice after all... in fact, I'm very pro-choice. I like the choice of sprite over coke, the way I can choose purple over pink, silver over gold, today over yesterday, Burger King over McDonalds, Walmart over K-mart... must I go on? So what your saying is that if we have no choice in life, we are pro-life, and if we have the choice of going left or right at the upcoming intersection, we're pro-choice?

So saying you are pro-choice may sound nicer, but theres really no 'pro-choice' side.
There are 2 sides to this. There is Pro-life and Pro-Abortion. Thats all there is to it. No third party. The only other party is that that consists of people that don't really know, understand, or care about abortion. So pick a side. Pro-Life, or Pro-Abortion.


message 11: by Lara (new)

Lara Torgesen Well people, I guess the jig is up. They've blown our cover and exposed our true agenda in life: to heartlessly kill as many babies as we possibly can before we die. And to think, we were so close to almost getting away with it! The fact that I didn't abort my own three children was that I wanted to produce more baby killers to send out into the world and continue my killing spree.

Rats!


message 12: by Vieve (new)

Vieve | 7 comments I'm glad you chose life, Lara. That was a good CHOICE.



message 13: by Vieve (new)

Vieve | 7 comments Another thought. I see an admission! Being pro-abortion = heartless baby killing. After giving life to three children, you can't possibly be pro-choice.


message 14: by Lara (new)

Lara Torgesen This is just like the extreme pro-choicers who refuse to use the term "pro-life," insisting instead on terms like "anti-choice" and "anti-women." Then they give all their reasons as to why these are the more accurate terms. I don't do that. My undergrad degree is in English/editing and the proper etiquette in these situations is to use the term that people in that group have ASKED to be called. "Gay and lesbian" and "same-sex couples" have asked that they be referred to in those terms rather than as "fags" and "homos," etc., which are derogatory and dehumanizing. One can, of course, call people what they like--that's free speech--but to refuse to call a group what they have asked to be called (and in fact calling them what they have specifically asked NOT to be called) is rude and insulting and exhibits a level of ignorance.

Don't worry. We will continue to refer to you as pro-life out of respect for your position on this matter.


message 15: by Vieve (new)

Vieve | 7 comments What if Neo-Nazi skinhead murderers wanted to be called "benevolent saviors?" Out of respect to the Neo-Nazi skinhead murderers would you call them benevolent saviors? Or, would you call them what they really are - Neo-Nazi skinhead murderers? In fact, sometimes it's absolutely essential for a society to be able to call a spade a spade. Calling a rapist a rapist, or a murderer a murderer is not wrong or insulting - it's the truth! A society that chooses to willfully ignore basic moral truths for fear of offending certain people engaged in abhorrent behavior, cannot long survive. Certainly, with all of your education you can understand that.


message 16: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 9 comments You are absolutely right, regarding the Neo-Nazi/benevolent saviors. A perfect argument, Vieve!


message 17: by Lara (last edited Jul 14, 2008 09:46AM) (new)

Lara Torgesen As I said, free speech allows us to call people what we want. If we have no respect for someone's position, and I agree I have no respect for neo-nazi's, I'll call them what I think they are. I just think it's a bit hypocritical that we are expected to continue to call you pro-life and submissively accept being called "pro-abortionist" and "heartless baby killers." These are all just labels and they don't change anything about who we are. I'm just pointing out something that I think is hypocritical.


message 18: by Brigid ✩ (new)

Brigid ✩ lara is right. seriously, you guys. mary catherine, you are just being totally inconsiderate calling us 'heartless baby killers'. what, do you think we're going around kidnapping people's babies and stabbing them to death??? do we encourage abortion? no! but we support a woman's right to have a choice.
and just fyi, vieve, my mother has given birth to six children. she also lost a baby last year with a miscarriage. that was really hard for her and for my whole family. my mom knows what it's like to lose an unborn child, yet she is still pro-choice. do you know what it's like to lose an unborn child? no, i don't think you do. therefore, i don't think you really know what you're talking about. my mom, on the other hand, does.
obviously though, i'm not going to change your minds, because you are both too inconsiderate to respect our opinions in the first place, giving us these ridiculous labels. at least i give your ideas a chance, and all i get is this constant disrespect??


message 19: by Vieve (new)

Vieve | 7 comments I agree that labels “don’t change anything about who we are.” Someone who is for killing babies if for killing babies. Calling them “pro-choice” will not change the fact that their choices lead to dead babies. Thank you for proving my point.

Calling someone who is for life “pro-life” and calling someone who is for killing a baby a “heartless baby killer” is not hypocritical. It’s the truth. A man who denounces prostitution, and then goes to a prostitute is a hypocrite. A person who is pro-life and works to end the senseless slaughter of millions of innocent children is not a hypocrite. Not even when they use terms that you find offensive.

Finally, what really reeks of hypocrisy is when you say, “…I’ll call them what I think they are.” Apparently, it’s o.k. for you to call someone who they really are, but it is not o.k. for pro-lifers to label abortionists as “baby killers,” because you – or the baby killers themselves – find it offensive. That is hypocrisy at an almost Biblical level. Wow!



message 20: by Trinka (last edited Jul 14, 2008 06:31PM) (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments Agreed Vieve!
Are you as amused as I, Vieve and other pro-lifers, at the voiced revulsion of being labeled 'pro-abortion' by those who argue a woman's 'right to choose'? Apparently abortion is something so intrinsicly evil that even its supporters are scared of it! What on earth do you people expect? Could it be you have some reservations? Some whisperings of conscience the modern world tries to smother? Stand up for what you believe in! If it is abortion, then take the plunge, go all out and support it! Or do you find some comfort in hiding under a more subdued 'pro-choice' label?
By the way, I urge you who say you are 'pro-choice' to look at some actual photos of aborted babies. How can you look at those tiny mutilated bodies and say they are not people, and that the abortion doctor is not heartless? Read about how the baby screams and urinates as its brains are sucked from its tiny head. I fail to understand how not being moved by these things is not the very essence of 'cold-hearted'. Abortion is an ugly, ugly thing! It is EVIL!


message 21: by Lara (new)

Lara Torgesen I do stand up for what I believe in. I am pro-choice. I believe in a woman's right to choose. I have never killed anything on purpose in my life except for bugs. I am offended by being called a murderer.

I used to be pro-life (with a more nuanced view that it might be okay in certain circumstances) until I heard the rantings of people like you who pushed me over to the other side.


message 22: by Brigid ✩ (last edited Jul 14, 2008 03:12PM) (new)

Brigid ✩ I agree with Lara. I am also pro-choice. I don't consider myself a murderer, and I refuse to be labeled as such.
And you pro-life people are really not convincing me otherwise.
I was invited to this group--I won't name names, in case s/he doesn't want to be identified--by someone who already knew I was pro-choice, and told me that my opinion would be valued in this group so that everyone would understand both sides. I understood that it was a pro-life group, and I knew that I might take a risk by expressing my opinion. But I wasn't ever trying to convince anyone to join my side; I just wanted them to understand my view point. And--oh, silly me!--I thought I would get some decent respect. I guess I was wrong. There are the very few people in this group who have politely agreed to disagree with me. And I've tried my very hardest to be respectful to everyone else. But I'm starting to feel like I shouldn't even bother, because most of you sure as hell do not deserve my respect anymore. I express my view, and I'm labeled a murderer. Real nice. I hope you all are very satisfied with yourselves.


message 23: by Trinka (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments First of all, I didn't call either of you murderers. I say that abortion is murder, and an abortion doctor is a murderer! I would reserve the right to remain quiet on the subject of an individual woman, taking into account whether or not she was a teen pressured by her parents or otherwise. I will stick to my statement that if you were to look at photos of aborted babies and be unmoved, you are cold-hearted.
If I say to you, I think it is all right to molest children, and take away their innocence, can you respect that? Hopefully you would be repulsed! Do not ask me to respect your opinion. I respect all human beings, and you definately have your right to an opinion, but you cannot truly believe I have to respect what is utterly abhorent to me.


message 24: by Lara (new)

Lara Torgesen Trinka, may I ask you a question? I hope no one thinks I am trying to incite violence here because that is absolutely NOT my intention. But, if that is honestly your view on what is happening to little babies, why AREN'T you out there physically stopping it? If I were to walk past a house and someone told me a child inside was being murdered, I wouldn't just stand there with a sign that says, "Please don't do that!" I would kick down the door and do everything I could to save the child, even if that meant killing the killer. Once again, I am NOT trying to incite violence at abortion clinics, God forbid. I am just trying to understand the logic here.


message 25: by Trinka (last edited Jul 14, 2008 06:45PM) (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments Lara, if I rushed to an abortion clinic and tried to physically restrain some woman to keep her from having an abortion, what do you suppose would happen? If she wasn't tougher than I and didn't lay me flat I would sooner than later be carted off to jail. Some solution. You on the other hand, rushing into a house to save a child from being murdered, would be protected by the law, not thrown into jail. There is your answer.
Why else am I not out there physically stopping women from having abortions? Well, I have given you one good reason, and then there is the fact that am quite busy with raising a family and all that that involves. I try to help by making donations to worthwhile causes, and by standing up for what I believe in. On the other hand, I could ask the same of type of question of you. Why are you not scouting in rough parts of cities, finding situations in which you can save a child from harm? Can you see that if you expect me to physically stop women from having abortions because of my beliefs, you should in turn assume that I expect you do go out and fight crime because of yours?
And Lara, if you were so easily driven 'over to the other side', I highly doubt you were much of an asset to the pro-lifers cause. In other words, you must not have had much conviction on the matter.


message 26: by Trinka (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments McKenna, I guess I didn't realize that by 'no spamming' you probably meant that this thread was only for 'Pro-abortion' names rather than debating, I apologize. It didn't occur to me. I guess we could take this to a new subject, though it is a bit late.


message 27: by Brigid ✩ (last edited Jul 14, 2008 06:39PM) (new)

Brigid ✩ um, yeah. that's why lara decided to be pro-choice. that's kind of the point...


message 28: by Trinka (last edited Jul 14, 2008 06:50PM) (new)

Trinka (trinkaofcanada) | 36 comments My point, I will spell it out, is that Lara won't inspire regret about us losing her to the 'other side', as she obviously had no conviction on the matter. I am assuming we were supposed to feel badly about our 'ranting'.


message 29: by Lara (new)

Lara Torgesen I'm sure I will not inspire any regret by leaving along with Brigid, but, like her, I have made the points I want to make and I don't want to continue arguing the same points over and over, especially with people who already have the foregone conclusion that they own the moral highground on the matter. Hopefully any person reading through these threads will see where there is logic and where there is not. Now you can just sit around and talk amongst yourselves about how horrible abortion is and how it must stopped at all costs. Here's one suggestion for the Catholic Church to curtail abortions: allow people to use contraception. Wouldn't prevention be a lot better than abortion? I've never understood the Catholic stance on that. It seems like fighting fire with one hand while adding fuel with the other.

Fortunately we do not live in the United States of the Catholic Church. This is a battle you've already lost. Abortion IS legal here and it will stay that way. The U.S. government has a moderate pro-choice stance, which I have already laid out: abortion on demand is legal to a point; then it becomes illegal with exceptions for mother's life and health. The majority of Americans agree with that stance. Even if Roe v Wade is--God forbid--overturned someday, the issue will then be turned over to the states. Only the most backward states will ban it altogether and a few more may add additional restrictions. But most states will keep it legal. What that means then, is that rich people will still be able to travel anywhere and get their abortions. Our usual whipping boy, the poor, will bear the brunt of our bad policies.

And by the way, I am out fighting my battles for the causes I believe in every day. I pay 10 percent of all my gross income (a tithe, if you will) to various charitable causes and donate as much time as I can to them.

Good luck in your endeavors, as futile as they may be.


message 30: by Vieve (new)

Vieve | 7 comments The Catholic Church is 100% pro-life. That means it does not – nor will it ever – support policies that seek to end an innocent life – or prevent life. This may sound illogical to someone like you, but the Church’s position is very consistent: protect innocent life from conception to natural death, and do nothing to prevent life (i.e. contraception). While you cannot understand the Church’s stance on life, I’ve never been able to figure out why people are so violently opposed to the Church’s stance on life. I guess some people feel that protecting life is somehow threatening to them. I’ll never understand that.

You are right that the culture of death is probably here to stay in this country. You have the type of society that you want. In this country women can kill their babies. This is what you want. This is what you support. And yet, you’re angry and unhappy. Why is that? I believe that you already know the answer to that.

As far as helping the poor by killing their offspring, yeah that should help. Next, we’ll cure diabetes by killing the diabetics. Your compassion is so moving.

Lastly, please consider this. While my endeavors may be futile, they are just and they are righteous. Early Christians defied the Roman authorities and continued to practice their faith. Tens of thousands were martyred. In the face of the world’s most powerful empire their efforts seemed futile. But they were just and they were righteous. Early on, some people opposed slavery in this country. Their efforts were indeed futile, but they were just and they were righteous. Early on, some people opposed Adolf Hitler and they paid with their lives. Their efforts were indeed futile – in an earthly sense. But, they were righteous and they were just. Early on, many Ukrainians opposed Josef Stalin’s tyrannical plans, and they paid with their lives. Their efforts were futile. But, they were just and they were righteous.

As Catholics – as children of God – we must do what is right and what is just. Our efforts may indeed be futile in an earthly sense, but they will always be right and just in the eyes of God. Like the early martyrs, like the early abolitionists, and like the defenders of freedom, I may not live long enough to see God’s justice prevail on this earth, but His justice will prevail.

I am truly sorry that you cannot understand this. May God bless you and forgive you.



message 31: by Kathleen (new)

Kathleen | 9 comments Nicely stated comments, Vieve and Trinka :)


message 32: by Fiona (new)

Fiona | 69 comments Bridgid, I am commenting on your post 5. Pro-abortion is an accurate term, and you ARE a heartless baby killer if you think abortion is okay.


message 33: by Fiona (new)

Fiona | 69 comments Fiona Zack: I am pro-choice, but I support the OTHER choice, like Vieve pointed out. The CHOICE to give life. As an 11-year-old, I do not have children. But if fate takes a twist and I become pregnant at, say, thirteen, I'm still going to make the CHOICE to give life. Period.


message 34: by Michelle (new)

Michelle | 2 comments I'm PRO-CHOICE TOO. But I think Killing Babies should be an ILLEGAL choice. If someone chooses to kill another they should go to jail. It doesn't get any simpler than that. In a caring nation we shouldn't allow others to get away with murder with out proper punishment. 1000 of other wrong choices are illegal in America. But we leaglize murder for the sake of unpunished "choice".


message 35: by Stuart (new)

Stuart | 1 comments Ted Bundy was pro choice. He believed upon meeting someone, it was a choice if to kill them or not. A choice to murder or not to murder. The fact that he met many people that he did not murder, chose not to murder means it is indeed a choice. But he reserves the right to kill if he chooses to. So because he is exercising a choice to not kill every single person he meets, he's less of a cold blooded murdering arsehole then thought to be.

A thought for pro choice. If you discovered that your mother was going to abort you when she was pregnant but your father prevented it by the use of violence against her, would you still think that your father was the bad guy and deserved to go to jail.

Would you feel like killing yourself to respect your mothers right to snuff out your existence.

Pro choice is the Bundy choice. To allow Bundy's choice or not to allow it.

If you don't want a baby, exercise your choice to use condoms, the pill, patches, etc, etc. If you choose not to, accept your responsibility as a parent as you are always telling deadbeat dads to do. Deadbeat dads didn't get a choice to kill the little destroyers of their lives, neither should deadbeat mums.




message 36: by Fiona (new)

Fiona | 69 comments Okay, using things that prevent pregnancy is still bad. It's just sad that people would spend their money so that they don't have to have children.


message 37: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments please chang it to Por-life or Pro-death, after all their the same...


message 38: by Fiona (new)

Fiona | 69 comments *sigh* I can see you stand firm in your beleifs.


message 39: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments sorry if i ofended someone. i didn't mean to.


message 40: by Fiona (new)

Fiona | 69 comments You're not being offensive *pats consolingly on the back for no reason*


message 41: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments lol


message 42: by Fiona (new)

Fiona | 69 comments I have a habit of typing that stuff...


message 43: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments rotflmlocide!


message 44: by Eric▲ (new)

Eric▲ | 108 comments laughing my lungs out-cide
so i am "rolling on the floor laughing my lungs out to death



message 45: by Anthony (new)

Anthony (Anthony3) | 5 comments Okay put it this way

Imagine your mother had an abortion

The aborted child was you

You were robbed of the life you are currently living
Would that be fair

What if a child had just been aborted now that would've found a cure for cancer

What if a world leader, a Martin Luther King Jr., a Ghandi, was aborted

Albert Einstein, your grandparent causing your parent and you to have never been born

Your brother, your sister, a saint, an inspiration

What if they were killed

Abortion is stealing

It steals the life of a child
It steals a friend from a would be friend
It robs the parent of an experience

Stop abortions


Felicity/Rosestar (felicity) | 53 comments Mod
That is really good Anthony.


message 47: by John (new)

John (jayrindone1412gmailcom) Yes! What if Barack Obamas Mother aborted him..would we ahve a first black president..NO! What if the baby that is being aborted right now was the first person to walk on mars!!!!!!!We need to be the voice of the unborn!!!! we need to speak up for those babies that arent born yet! cuz i bet all of those babies want to say....PLEASE MOMMY,DONT LET THEM KILL ME I WANT TO LIVE!

so lets be the voice for those babies!


message 48: by John (new)

John (jayrindone1412gmailcom) anyone agree????


message 49: by John (new)

John (jayrindone1412gmailcom) Thank ;)


Felicity/Rosestar (felicity) | 53 comments Mod
Who here doesn't agree? If anyone does, they are totally crazy!!!!


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